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[datdude]

[Edit by JimH] -- Red October JRVR was added to build 73.  More recent builds are on the Download Page.]

1. NEW: JRVR is available integrated with Red October for Video playback. (Preview)

Working well for me. Nicely done!

It looks like it is tone mapping my HDR movies since my LG is not switching to the HDR mode? They look as good as using MadVR without any careful comparison.

[jmone]

JRVR Testing (so far):  Looks good!  I ran a bunch of test patterns and real content (many side by side with JRVR on one screen and madVR on another)
- Stable and responsive (no hang up or weird full screen stuttering like you can get with madVR)
- GPU Usage: Not a great comparison but it is lower than the madVR settings I use for 3D (40% vs 50%) and the same for CPU and Video Decode
- AV Sync: Perfect on 23.976/50/59.94 (using my existing lip sync settings)
- De-Interlacing:  Looks different using test patterns side by side with madVR but on real content it looked identical and was good
- TV Engine: No Issues
- SDR Content: looks correct and the same as madVR
- HDR Content: levels are wrong (as we know HDR is not yet supported)
- Subtitles: Good
- Frame Rate Changes: No issues
- BD Title Playback: No Issues
- BD Full Menu Playback: No OSD (I'm not sure if this should work at this stage)

Summary:  A really good preview.  Nice and solid and while not complete (missing HDR, and BD Menu OSD support) it is looking like it has plenty of merit as the "default" renderer once complete. 

Thanks for the work on this!
Nathan

[Hendrik]

HDR should currently tone map to SDR and look acceptable. If it doesn't, that would be a bug.

Hardware deinterlacing is not currently supported and it'll use YADIF instead

[jmone]

....also no issues with playback on "Std" content (1080p / UHD : 4:2:0) as well as higher specked, UHD HFR @ 4:2:2 500mbps, or UHD AV1 clips

[jmone]

HDR should currently tone map to SDR and look acceptable. If it doesn't, that would be a bug.

I'm testing on my Win11 Box with HDR ON on the time.  HDR Material is OKish but is still visibly different vs madVR HDR.  Some parts are mapped OK, but others look oversaturated / blownout.  I'll tried to get a comparison screen shot but you can't screenshot HDR accurately.  Anyway, the HDR -> SDR tone mapping works OK but is no substitute for HDR.

Hardware deinterlacing is not currently supported and it'll use YADIF instead

Right that explains it.  YADIF is fine.  I only noticed a difference in the test pattern anyway, not on real content. 

[jmone]

FYI - Thinking a bit more about the HDR Tone Mapping in my testing, it will be HDR Content --> SDR (Tone Mapped by JRVR) --> HDR (Tone Mapped by Windows 11).... so it is going to look different to madVR that I've set to just passthrough HDR.

[Hendrik]

I would definitely ask to disable windows HDR things when evaluating the tone mapping, who knows how they interact. Passthrough is coming in the future.

There is also a bunch of parameters for tone mapping that can be made configurable, including different algorithms, so once we have options that'll be something to play with. But getting it to work on Windows with Red October and LAV was the priority.

[jmone]

...and for a first cut JRVR it is working really really well!  I would say it is already a better renderer than EVR + it is cross platformed.  You have done a great job in a very short amount of time.   

I'll test the tone mapping with Win OS HDR Off shortly (got a vid call coming up). 

[jmone]

I would definitely ask to disable windows HDR things when evaluating the tone mapping, who knows how they interact. Passthrough is coming in the future.

Lets see if this screen shot works.  It's from an HDR Video played with JRVR with both Windows and my monitors set to HDR OFF.  It infact looks way way more saturated than the same video played with HDR On (monitor and windows), which only looks a bit off.

There is also a bunch of parameters for tone mapping that can be made configurable, including different algorithms, so once we have options that'll be something to play with. But getting it to work on Windows with Red October and LAV was the priority.

FWIW (and as an aside), I'm not that sold on the frenzy around Tone Mapping (over at the madVR thread anyway) vs Passthough.  Sure it is good for low NIT devices like my PJ (in that it is better than what my PJ can do natively... but no longer being a pixel peeper I find my eyes/brain do a pretty good job on their own unless viewing content is side by side).  Also most flat panels have a pretty good NIT range already and it will only get better.  eg, I'm testing on displays that can run at 1000nits in HDR mode but I run them in "std" HDR mode most of the time anyway.

So, my personal preference would be to get HDR passthrough working first.

[jmone]

Hendrik, I've sent you a link to the sample video that I took this screen shot from.
Thanks
Nathan

[Hendrik]

Tone Mapping is important because there is a lot of SDR PC screens and older TVs out there that don't do HDR, and videos are supposed to look well on those.
There is also optional peak detection to properly scale the tonemapping which is not enabled right now.

[jmone]

True.

[jmone]

After random noodling around, it is a very solid experience.  Fast, no glitches, just works.  The only other things to add is

- there is no 3D Support that I can see (I'm sure some will ask)

- I oddly miss the Ctrl-J to see an OSD to see what is happening!  (weird I know) 

[Hendrik]

There will likely be a debug OSD in the future, as it greatly helps debugging/testing. 3D is not currently planned, its more dead every day now, and not very cross-platform.

[JimH]

- there is no 3D Support that I can see (I'm sure some will ask)

- I oddly miss the Ctrl-J to see an OSD to see what is happening!  (weird I know) 

I think we should use ctrl-j for that reason.

And I agree with Hendrik about 3D.  It came and went in the 1950's.

Great job of testing and reporting!  Thanks for saving the real bugs for later.

[jmone]

I agree 3D is dead, Just running through my test files.  I don't think there are any real bugs, but i've only tested on one machine so far.  I will see how it goes at the other end of the performance scale.... on a Win 10 NUC at some point today.

[jmone]

My testing on the NUC7 (i5) did not get far.  JRVR is using the GPU but I'm not sure how much as my CPU pegs at 100% and the GPU is around 50% (on a UHD BD HEVC 23.976).  Dropping lots of frames.  As a comparison EVR also dropped frames (but not as bad) yet madVR (set to Best Performance Profile) has the CPU around 50% and the GPU 95% and was fine.

[Hendrik]

Native/Zero-copy hardware decoding will likely be required for such devices to play properly on complicated content. Using D3D11 decoding should be the most efficient decoding of any of the options available right now.

[jmone]

Is that something I can trigger for testing?  .... or just wait for now?

[datdude]

Might just be personal preference, but the JRVR deinterlacing on 720p broadcast content (Pearl Jam Unplugged) looks significantly better at reducing jaggies than madvr (video mode). Overall much smoother broadcast.

One thing I also realized that madvr has is per file 'black' settings. I have numerous videos where the black level is completely washed out, and if you add a flag to the file name, madvr will set it to your custom black level.

[Hendrik]

The software deinterlacing isn't bad, it is just slow. We'll have to see what we do about hardware/accelerated deinterlacing.

There is no good cross-platform way to access the fixed-function video hardware in GPUs, and the quality is pretty random.  Thinking about it, deinterlacing is just fancy upscaling of half a frame each, some scaling algorithms like NNEDI3 actually initially started life as a deinterlacing filter. So we'll see.

Although for low-end hardware the fixed-function deinterlacing might be the only good option, so at least on Windows it'll get hooked into, as thats mostly the expected functionality and offers deinterlacing largely for "free".

[jmone]

One thing I also realized that madvr has is per file 'black' settings. I have numerous videos where the black level is completely washed out, and if you add a flag to the file name, madvr will set it to your custom black level.

I imagine that if there will be JRVR customisable per file playback settings, it would be stored in the Playback Info field like other video playback options. 

[lello]

One thing I also realized that madvr has is per file 'black' settings. I have numerous videos where the black level is completely washed out, and if you add a flag to the file name, madvr will set it to your custom black level.

This is the first time I've heard about these black level settings: could you link me something to learn more?

[tij]

There will likely be a debug OSD in the future, as it greatly helps debugging/testing. 3D is not currently planned, its more dead every day now, and not very cross-platform.

Its not dead yet in Germany ... harder to order for me now, thanks to covid ... Monster Hunter is coming out on 3D bluray there ... and Jumanji Next Level in Australia in 3D

And i still prefer to watch new releases in 3d first if they are available ... its still stunning on LG OLED

Passthrough might be tough due to hardware support ... but if can render it TopBottom or SBS it would be a plus ... and if can do it in 4K - even better

[JimH]

Here we go:  https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,130913.msg907597.html#msg907597  (build 73).

For now it's Red October JRVR.  The name may change.  No new features, but video quality is improved compared to (at least) EVR. 

[Manfred]

Made a quick test with different videos like LG ST. Petersburg demo 114 Mbit bitrate , Sony HDR camp 4k HDR , LG Chess (h265 10bit 62Mbit 59fps HDR) and some of my 29i music concerts. Everything works fine. CPU and GPU usage is much less than madVR, except for the 29i stuff which utilizes more CPU and GPU compared to madVR ->SW deinterlaing, as I understood so far. Picture quality - first impression is like madVR.

Congratulations for MC's new video renderer.

[TheShoe]

There will likely be a debug OSD in the future, as it greatly helps debugging/testing. 3D is not currently planned, its more dead every day now, and not very cross-platform.

hate to read this but it is what it is.  please keep madVR support for those of us with massive 3D collections.  as a family we enjoy 3D often.  a minority I am sure, but as long as you keep it there as-is, we're fine.

[Manfred]

In Costa Rica 4k 29,97 FPS in the intro JRVR has some micro stuttering compared to madVR where the camera move in the beginning is super smooth. On my desktop monitor the 29,97 are up scaled to 60 FPS.

[Hendrik]

Can you post a reference to the exact video? Even small differences could invalidate such a test, thanks.

[R-ed]

JRVR with Subtitle mode: Always show subtitles does not show external subtitle

[lello]

- I oddly miss the Ctrl-J to see an OSD to see what is happening!  (weird I know) 

While waiting to have an OSD showing what's going on, is it possible to choose where to place the current OSD? I should move it within the active area.

I also did some short tests and apart from the HDR with wrong levels, as already said, especially in the highlights, I noticed that the chapter or subtitle change is slower and more jerky than madvr.

Excellent use of the GPU which went from 70% to 55%.

[Manfred]

Can you post a reference to the exact video? Even small differences could invalidate such a test, thanks.

http://admision2.unap.edu.pe/sugihbareng/costa.rica.in.4k.60fps.hdr.ultra.hd.xhtml

It's not the original link and I could not remeber it. I had it downloaded 2017 to my MC library.

[Hendrik]

Upcoming build 76 supports D3D11 native/zero copy hardware decoding, although it's not being enabled automatically in Red October yet, which will come soon once D3D11 deinterlacing is supported.

Proper integration with D3D11 decoding and deinterlacing should allow even 4k playback on lower end systems, as well as save power.

If anyone wanted to test early, you can use a custom setup with LAV video and turn on D3D11.

Also if anyone is experiencing judder or micro stutters, i need exact video samples to reproduce. Movie or clip names won't do since small technical differences make the difference for such tests. Please also mention which FPS the file has and what refresh your screen is to make sure I test the right things. You can also PM me or send a mail with such samples, as needed

[jmone]

First impressions on the NUC7 is good!  Will post back some details, but 23.976 UHD HDR BD is playing with about 75% CPU & GPU utilisation.

[jmone]

Pretty impressive boost in performance on the NUC7.
- 23.976fps UHD HDR BD HEVC plays well
- 50fps UHD AVC plays well!!! (this is a surprise)
- 50fps UHD HDR HEVC is still a bit too much with stuttering but it is "different" to EVR (which is a mess with audio issues as well) and madVR (with it's usual dropped frames).  MCVR looks like it is blending the dropped frames, it's not abrupt drops but more of a pulsing of the speed.  Still not a great outcome but it handles it better

I however did see some Green Bar issues on letterboxed HEVC UHD BD (eg WW84 - bottom green line in the black bar area) and also on the right had side of DVB-T SD Content - see pics.

[Hendrik]

Can you try one of those vids with issues on another GPU to see if there is something driver related or a generic problem?

[jmone]

No green bar issue on a RTX3090.  About to test a NUC8 as well.

[jmone]

NUC8 was the same in my testing to the NUC7 for both performance and the green lines.  I was hoping the NUC8's Intel Iris Plus 655 would give the extra performance bump over the NUC7's 640 to play UHD HDR 50fps material but still not quite enough. 

[jmone]

The NUC8 was eligible for the Win11 upgrade so I did that and retested (but probably still need to update drivers etc...).  Anyway about the same, but if anything a bit better performance on HFR UHD HEVC Video.  Same green band issue. 

[Hendrik]

The HDR tonemapping can be pretty heavy on the GPU, maybe with pass-through they can do better. Going to dig up my NUC7 today and see whats up with those.

[lello]

If anyone wanted to test early, you can use a custom setup with LAV video and turn on D3D11.

Having made some tests and with the 23p I did not notice big differences apart from the lower use of the GPU (from 55% to 42% even with 4k HDR), while with it I can still view 60p files such as Gemini Man or the various LG demos: I only see a few images at each scene change.

Another small problem I noticed is that MC no longer maintains the zoom settings. Having a 21: 9 screen, I have to use the zoom in case of a 16: 9 file to make it fit within the screen area, but if I stop the movie and then restart it, I have to do the same operation again because the position was not been saved.

P.S. GPU RX 580

[Hendrik]

Having made some tests and with the 23p I did not notice big differences apart from the lower use of the GPU (from 55% to 42% even with 4k HDR), while with it I can still view 60p files such as Gemini Man or the various LG demos: I only see a few images at each scene change.

This is only available in build 76, and not enabled by default until a future build beyond that.

[jmone]

The HDR tonemapping can be pretty heavy on the GPU, maybe with pass-through they can do better. Going to dig up my NUC7 today and see whats up with those.

I came to the same conclusion as JRVR can play UHD AVC SDR 50fps material just fine (which is a pretty mean feat) on the NUC.  It's the UHD HEVC HDR 50fps that is just a bit too much.   But again, it is really a big jump in performance over EVR/madVR opening up modern codecs on such low powered iGPUs.  Well Done.  Looking forward to seeing what HDR passthrough can do.

[Hendrik]

Got the issue with the green parts figured out as well hopefully, was a simple mistake luckily, and not some driver nonsense. So back to adding deinterlacing and then we can all enjoy D3D11 native decoding

[jmone]

This is only available in build 76, and not enabled by default until a future build beyond that.

+ you also then have to do the following if you want to test
1) register LAVVideo.ax in C:\Users\[USERNAME]\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 28\Plugins\lav64 with an elevated cmd prompt running "regsvr32.exe LAVVideo.ax"
2) in MC --> Tools --> Options --> Video you can then select "Video mode: Advanced - Custom" and start with "Red October JRVR" then "Add" Video decoder: LAV Video Decoder --> Configure and make sure that "Hardware Decoder to use" is "DSD11" as per the pic

[jmone]

Got the issue with the green parts figured out as well hopefully, was a simple mistake luckily, and not some driver nonsense. So back to adding deinterlacing and then we can all enjoy D3D11 native decoding

Great!  Was it just a scaling issue?

[lello]

+ you also then have to do the following if you want to test
1) register LAVVideo.ax in C:\Users\[USERNAME]\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 28\Plugins\lav64 with an elevated cmd prompt running "regsvr32.exe LAVVideo.ax"
2) in MC --> Tools --> Options --> Video you can then select "Video mode: Advanced - Custom" and start with "Red October JRVR" then "Add" Video decoder: LAV Video Decoder --> Configure and make sure that "Hardware Decoder to use" is "DSD11" as per the pic

That's exactly what I did

[mattkhan]

Any info on how the tonemapping works? For example, how does it know what to compress down to?

Do you plan to support anamorphic lens in this round btw? ie black bar detection and zoom to a specific ratio

[Hendrik]

That's exactly what I did

But you don't have build 76 yet.

Any info on how the tonemapping works? For example, how does it know what to compress down to?

It just targets reference SDR levels for now. Options will be available later.

Do you plan to support anamorphic lens in this round btw? ie black bar detection and zoom to a specific ratio

Not anytime soon, thats rather niche and would come after a lot of other things.
An alternative however would be that one of the external tools for MC get adapted to do that. Aspect Ratio/Zoom overrides are just stored in a library field, so if a tool were to do black bar detection and then appropriately update the field...

[mattkhan]

Not anytime soon, thats rather niche and would come after a lot of other things.
An alternative however would be that one of the external tools for MC get adapted to do that. Aspect Ratio/Zoom overrides are just stored in a library field, so if a tool were to do black bar detection and then appropriately update the field...

ok so MC can do this already if told to do so? I hadn't look for that given I use madvr for that purpose so far