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[voodoo5_6k]

First, great to read the MC29 announcement Already upgraded one of my Master Licenses yesterday. The other is due today (the order site wouldn't allow it in order to prevent a dual purchase, which, in my case, was what I intended )

Anyhow...

<<<Feature Request - External Video Processor Mode (EVPM)>>>

What I'd really like to have is a mode that would allow for using MC as a player only, with no upscaling etc. (except what's necessary, see below), so I could use a low powered MC HTPC with e.g. a Radiance Pro or other external video processors.

I have talked to a technical representative of the local Lumagen distributor about the ideal prerequisites:

• Output without overscan in 1:1 pixelmapping
• Colorspace Y/CB/CR 4:2:2 (if it were to output in 4:4:4, this would be altered to 4:2:2 12 bit color depth by the Radiance Pro)

So, this EVPM would bring up TheaterView in "normal resolution" (i.e. desktop resolution, the display's native resolution or whatever the user configures). When video is played, MC does so like described above, and when playback ends, it returns to the "normal resolution".

My motivation behind this is to take advantage of the Radiance Pro's CMS and scaling capabilities, for all sources (i.e. route all sources, incl. HTPC, through the Radiance Pro). Also, there are some additional points...

• I could downsize my HTPC again to make it more efficient and less power-hungry (and also quieter during the hotter times of the year)
• Buying a decent GPU nowadays sets me back almost 40-50% of the Radiance Pro's price, and I could only use the GPU to enhance the content played through MC
• Having this EVPM would allow me to have all the library and TheaterView etc. greatness of MC together with all the Radiance Pro advantages (CMS and great scaling for all attached sources, not just the MC HTPC)

I'm aware that this is, well, an edge case or an uncommon feature, not required for most users. So, this could be a separate "upgrade" or "add-on", which would require an additional license fee. Also, this could set MC apart from other solutions, even catering to owners of external video processors and allowing them to integrate MC into their home cinema (i.e. as a source optimized for external video processors).

I'm also willing to "chip in" and contribute financially to this. Please feel free to reach out to me (PM or E-Mail).

Note: I had already brought up this topic here (PC's and Other Hardware): https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,131758.0.html, but this got no reaction so far. Thus, I went ahead and talked to the local Lumagen distributor. After that, I knew more, discovered the new MC29 section today, and created the feature request

[Hendrik]

PCs are not designed for YCbCr output, they always operate in RGB internally.
Yes, you can set your graphics driver to YCbCr output, but that just causes the graphics card to convert the RGB image back down to YCbCr on output, it does not allow anything close to untouched output, or even controlled YCbCr output.

This means you will always perform color conversion and chroma upscaling, no matter what you do. The only thing that remains is scaling. And to avoid scaling, you can already get resolution switching mostly working by using madVR with madVR custom mode switching. However custom resolutions are not always reliable. Its easy if you just play 1080p or 4k, but if any file is a non-standard resolution, you are already having issues matching the resolution to the output.

So in summary, the limitations of a PC make this not very feasible, and would only be half-baked at best - and you can basically already do this half-baked mode with appropriate configuration. So its not something we will pursue.

[JimH]

I'm also willing to "chip in" and contribute financially to this. Please feel free to reach out to me (PM or E-Mail).

Thanks for the offer and for your purchase(s).

[voodoo5_6k]

Fair enough. However, the idea would be to not use madVR at all, but switch to something that is actually going to be maintained (i.e. JRVR).

Can this "half-baked mode" also be achieved with JRVR? Maybe it would be good to have a "no-upscaling" switch, to ensure that no upscaling is performed, independent of resolution (i.e. having a video surrounded by black bars to match the best fitting resolution)? Could that be a thing to add to JRVR? Because "mostly working by using madVR with madVR custom mode switching" wouldn't help much, if I wanted pursue this for further testing.

[voodoo5_6k]

Thanks for the offer and for your purchase(s).

You're most welcome, Jim Thanks for making such a great product available and keep pushing the envelope, together with your wonderful team!

[Hendrik]

Maybe it would be good to have a "no-upscaling" switch, to ensure that no upscaling is performed, independent of resolution (i.e. having a video surrounded by black bars to match the best fitting resolution)? Could that be a thing to add to JRVR? Because "mostly working by using madVR with madVR custom mode switching" wouldn't help much, if I wanted pursue this for further testing.

You can do this by setting video scale to 100%, but I doubt a video processor is going to like extracting a video from big black bars around it.

[voodoo5_6k]

PCs are not designed for YCbCr output, they always operate in RGB internally.
Yes, you can set your graphics driver to YCbCr output, but that just causes the graphics card to convert the RGB image back down to YCbCr on output, it does not allow anything close to untouched output, or even controlled YCbCr output.

One addition. Just read it in the manual. You can specifiy that an input device (from the Radiance Pro's perspective) is using RGB/PC levels. So, that actually shouldn't be too much of a concern. Maybe it's not so big a deal. Let's just assume, YCbCr is not required. Could the remainder of my "EVPM" feature request be feasible/worth of pursuing now that one of the biggest limitations is off the table?

Now it's basically down to having an option to say (in layman terms ): When playing a video, do whatever you must to output it, but don't upscale, just switch to the content's resolution, and when you're done with playback, return to the previous resolution. (That would also work around the "big black bars around it" I brought up )

I understood, it's more or less possible with what's already there, but I'm basically asking for a single setting that's enforcing this, making it reliable. Does this make sense?

[BryanC]

One point I think that you might be misunderstanding is that there are actually two types of upscaling occurring during playback, the image resolution (I think you understand) and chroma (I think you are forgetting or misunderstanding). Outputting 4:4:4 (luma + chroma) is impossible without upscaling since source content (even UHD blu-ray) is subsampled to 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 to save bandwidth. So outputting full RGB as JRVR intends requires upscaling. You can set your display resolution to the source content resolution but this only eliminates image upscaling, not the chroma.

[voodoo5_6k]

Yeah, I'm fully aware of chroma upsampling (but thanks for making sure ). I'm "pushing" towards a single setting enforcing just the necessary activities for playback, but at the content's resolution, without having to fiddle with several settings over multiple pages etc. And afterwards, returning to the standard/previous resolution. A one-click solution that's reliable.

[voodoo5_6k]

Additional discussion here, in a related feature request: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,131931.0.html

(Maybe these threads should be merged?)

Also, one thing came into my mind. Nothing new, just extending what has been said to the JRiver Id (which already is a pretty thin client). With something like the "EVPM" it could not only be marketed as

"You can use an Id as a stand-alone media computer, or as a basic HTPC, and control it with a phone.  You can play to it as a DLNA Renderer, or from it as a DLNA Server.  It can be a Backup Server.  It's small (about 4" wide) and low power (about 10 watts) so you can run it 24/7.  It has the audio features of JRiver Media Center.  The Id 300 and above also play video.  It works with JRiver's Media Network."
(https://jriver.com/Id/)

but it would gain the capabilities to be easily integrated in a more "enthusiast" home theater setup. Like:

"...The id 300 and above can also play video (and you can of course use JRiver Media Center's TheaterView). With the new EVPM feature, they can output the video at the content's original resolution for further processing in your video chain (e.g. with an external video processor) and thus allow for easy integration into your existing infrastructure. It works with JRiver's Media Network."

Just throwing it out there...

[voodoo5_6k]

I'm still thinking about this (obviously) But this time about how to achieve this as reliable as possible even without my proposed single setting (EVPM).

So, would do I actually need? MC shall output each video in its original resolution, without further upscaling (I say "further" because it is clear that some upscaling will happen, on the chroma side, but no upscaling beyond the original resolution). Hence, I need to specify the resolution for each content type, ideally in MC's display settings. However, there I can specify one resolution per refresh rate, plus a default resolution. This is not enough, even for my simple library with very few different content types.

What do I have in my library? There are *.iso backups of all my discs (DVD & BD). That's three different types of video. PAL, NTSC, and 1080p. Then there are some 1080p *.mkv container, and some 720p *.mkv container. And a bunch of *.mp4 videos, ranging from 1080p down to very low resolutions (below 480p). These few content types already exceed the configuration limit in MC's display settings.

The idea... Could, maybe, this be achieved be defining different zones? Like, one for the *.iso backups and other 1080p content (*.mkv, *.mp4), and one or two for the other contents (haven't looked into how many different resolutions I would end up with when going through the *.mp4 list). The first zone would then have in its display settings 1080p23, 1080p24, 576p50, 480p59 etc. The second zone would have 720p23, 720p24 and so on, until I have configured a setting for each expected resolution, plus one fallback. For some oddball videos (like the few below 480p) I'd need to do a little upscaling to reach at least 480p. I'd of course need to find a way to direct each content to the fitting zone, and it should work. Shouldn't it?

I'll play with the zones and directing content to them once I have some time for that. If I get this working, I'll think about testing with Radiance Pro (a loan unit of course, as I won't buy such an expensive piece of equipment without knowing that it'll do what envision it to do).

[jmone]

I think you are right, that you could do it with Zones now.  Create a bunch of Zones called 720, 1080, UHD etc and then set the rule based on the "Dimension" field.  Then configure the "Display Settings automatic change mode" = Custom, and set the frame rate and resolution to match the zone. 

The only issue you are going to have is that ISO's don't have anything listed in "Dimensions" and you can't edit that field, so you will need to create a "Calculated Field", say called "hRes" and have it populated from "Dimensions" (or just the Horizonal Resolution part, eg it would only have ....,480, 720, 1080, etc).  This would also make your rules easier as you could do stuff like, "in under 721 then use 720 Zone" etc.  You can the manually tag that field for your ISO's

[voodoo5_6k]

Thanks jmone

[voodoo5_6k]

The only issue you are going to have is that ISO's don't have anything listed in "Dimensions" and you can't edit that field, so you will need to create a "Calculated Field", say called "hRes" and have it populated from "Dimensions" (or just the Horizonal Resolution part, eg it would only have ....,480, 720, 1080, etc).  This would also make your rules easier as you could do stuff like, "in under 721 then use 720 Zone" etc.  You can the manually tag that field for your ISO's

Finally, I found some time to fiddle around with the zones (wow, almost a month since the last update, time flies...). Based on what I saw during my first testing sessions, I may have even found an easier way than the calculated field. I have created a single zone for my *.iso files. I can catch all of my cases in this zone (as I either have PAL or NTSC DVD, or BD). Other video files need additional zones, based on the resolution types. In ZoneSwitch, I set a rule to send playback of filetype=iso to the newly created zone (I wanted to test the obvious, and easy way out first), and further rules for other video files. I did not create all zones right now, I just wanted to test the switching and see whether I could get it working for the worst case (*.iso). And it does work. MC directs the *.iso playback into the desired zone. Cool Other video files matching my test setup were directed to their respective zones. Yeah, I think this could work like hoped it would. MC really is a great and versatile software

Now, I need to analyze my library and categorize the other video files into resolution groups, and then setup all the zones, and finally the ZoneSwitch rules. Then test again, and move into the final testing phase... (which means arranging a Radiance Pro loan unit)

If it's OK, I'll keep using this thread for my testing results.

Thanks again, jmone

[voodoo5_6k]

It got even better. During testing I found that using e.g. "Height" within the ZoneSwitch rules, I can even address the *.iso files. Well, not directly, but once mounted and playback starts, it is directed to the correct zone. Very cool. In my case, I can then address everything with four zones, representing resolutions ...x480, ...x576, ...x720, ...x1080.

Playback is always directed into the correct zone (therefore, I assume my ZoneSwitch rules are correct), however, sometimes MC won't make that zone "active" or whatever it is called. If I then manually CTRL+T through the zones I'll eventually find the one with the active playback. Maybe it's an error on my end, or something's not working as it should, for whatever reason. I'll make a thread for that in the MC28 section.
(Edit: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,132340.0.html)
(Edit: As it also happens with MC29, now in the MC29 board: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,132665.0.html)

Apart from that, I'd say it's working. I'll leave this running for a while to see if anything else pops up.

[voodoo5_6k]

It's time for an update...

Like I said, I kept using MC with the four zones + ZoneSwitch configured. Apart from the issue I had described above (the zone with the playback not becoming active, occasionally or with certain discs), everything worked. I have a separate thread for the zone issue (see above).

Now, I finally got a Radiance Pro (loan unit), yay . I switched all four zones to JRVR, and under the display settings, configured the required display modes. The Radiance Pro reports all display modes it supports to the OS, acting as a display device.

Zone 480p is switching to the 480p display mode, zone 576p to the 576p display mode, and so on. Therefore, other than chroma scaling to match the respective display mode, no further luma scaling is being performed by MC/JRVR, as this zone configuration enforces content playback at the content's original resolution (except for some "special" cases, where the content's resolution is below 480p).

The Radiance Pro then is responsible for all the "heavy lifting", i.e. upscaling to my TV's native resolution and further image enhancements as well as advanced CMS.

I have tested this now for a while, and it's working good. The image quality is very nice (especially with Lumagen's recently released beta firmware with their pipeline enhancements), I'd say it's even better than the image quality I could achieve with madVR on my HTPC, mode switching is working, and there is less heat, a LOT less, compared to madVR on my HTPC (and with less heat, there's also less noise).

Dialing in the desired aspect ratio required a little effort at first, but now I know which settings to choose within MC and the Radiance Pro in order to get where I want to.

Overall, I can conclude that thanks to MC's versatility I can "build" my own "External Video Processor Mode". However, as the zones are not always working correctly, it's definitely not entirely smooth. I would still say that MC would benefit greatly from such an option (playback at content's original resolution, no further scaling).

Regarding my initial objectives...

• With a Radiance Pro and MC set up like this, could I get rid of the GPU, downsize the HTPC, and still have at least the same image quality while wasting less electricity and generating less heat & noise?
  - Oh yes, definitely. I'd say even better image quality, using less electricity and generating less heat & noise.
• Could I give other sources an image quality uplift, rather than only the content going through the HTPC?
  - Yes again, the Radiance Pro does its "thing" for all connected sources.

That leaves me with two things to do. Decide whether or not to get a Radiance Pro, and if so, hope for this zone issue to get fixed (or implementation of the no-further-scaling-option of course ).

[voodoo5_6k]

That leaves me with two things to do. Decide whether or not to get a Radiance Pro, and if so, hope for this zone issue to get fixed (or implementation of the no-further-scaling-option of course ).

One down... one to go...

[voodoo5_6k]

I'd like to give an intermediate summary of this.

Basically, it works, and it's not bad.

I can playback my *.iso backups from the server, with JRiver MC outputting it at the respective original resolution (i.e. no luma scaling). The heavy lifting is done by the Lumagen.

But it's far from "selecting a movie/tv show and lean back to enjoy". There's still some fiddling involved to set JRiver's aspect ratio in a way that, combined with the Lumagen, you end up with the correct aspect ratio on the display. This is basically impossible to do for my other users (as the HTPC sits in the living room and is supposed to provide for family entertainment).

Also, there are several instances where the playback zone won't become active. You can workaround that with CTRL-T, but this is also another major issue for my other users.

Once you're past all of these annoyances, it is really good. The picture quality is superb, and I could now move away from wasting so much electricity on the GPU, no longer have a space heater in the living room that also becomes a little loud (fan noise) in the summer.

But given that this whole endeavour is intended for family entertainment, the result is still not satisfactory.

For further testing, I have replaced the HTPC with an UDP-203. It plays my *.iso backups directly off the network share, with menus and all, and it can feed "source direct" (i.e. original resolution Y/CB/CR 4:2:2 12bit) to the Lumagen. While I miss the nice library and TheaterView of JRiver, this is now finally something one can use in the desired way (as stated above: "selecting a movie/tv show and lean back to enjoy").

If, some day, zones would work correctly and setting up display mode switching more refined would be possible (to send all content at its respective native resolution to the Lumagen, maybe even without having to use the zones, which is a little flaky for this), then I'd definitely test again, I think.

But, for the time being, I have decommissioned my HTPC and shutdown the library server VM. I'm down to using JRiver "just" for music now, in "Audio only view" (so, for MC 30 I won't need a second license anymore, but maybe I'll buy it anyhow to support JRiver). With Lumagen + UDP-203 I'm also saving a lot of electricity, generate less heat and noise, compared to the HTPC before. Also, other sources can be enhanced by the Lumagen, which is impossible for the HTPC. Plus superior CMS and DTM (for the latter, I don't care at all, I neither want nor need HDR). Although rationally this is a clear win-win situation, I still see this with mixed feelings as I really liked the whole HTPC concept. My first HTPC, way back, was feeding into a CRT TV via SCART... Those were the days... And now, after decades, it's gone...