Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[JimH]

As you might have read in the April 1 announcement about jmone taking over as CEO, Bob is retiring half time and I'm retiring about 90%.  I've thoroughly enjoyed owning this software company for the last 43 years, and especially working with such talented developers and customers.

However, jmone's refusal to acknowledge his crushing 7 to 6 defeat of yours truly is a royal pain.  It's clear that so many people believe in him and now he's acting like Edward VIII, pretending that he's going to abdicate the throne before the coronation.  What a Wallaby.

So that's why his avatar is now Atilla the Hun.

And he left me with Hey You Kids, "Get Off Of My Cloud".  Oh brother.

So we're done with April Fools Day.  We're going to act like adults for a change.

The question is:  What Do We Do With JRiver?

Sure, it will survive without me and even without half of Bob, but I'd like to see it do more than survive.  We've got something unique and important.  We can manage all your media with one interface.  It's not a bag of bolts.

My thoughts about the possibilities (and this is where I'd like to hear your ideas) are as follows.

1.  Sell it.

2.  Let it run and see what happens.

3.  Make it open source and follow a strategy like Red Hat's.

Let me know what you'd like to see.

[mwillems]

I don't know the business fundamentals so I don't know how feasible they are, but option 2 would be my personal preference, with option 3 as another good alternative.  IME sales of software companies are often pretty great for owners, but not usually so great for users 

Congratulations on your retirement Jim (and to Bob on his partial retirement).  I thought the thread yesterday was a total joke, but turns out you were only half-joking.

[mattkhan]

From my point of view, 1 will surely be terrible, 2 sounds like managed obsolescence, 3 sounds like it could be entertaining

[Ashfall]

Option 1 would end up the same as Whataburger or VMWare.
Option 2 might be OK if someone who truly cares takes over.
Option 3 is unpredictable.  Maybe get forked over and over due to disagreements with developers and morph into various Plex hybrids.

I'll cling to whatever version similar to what we have now works on Windows for the next 50 years.

[eve]

Per core licensing please.
Or Open Source it, get a decade of contributions from people external to JRiver as a company, then pull a Redis.

I'm kidding, I'll toss in some real suggestions later. This is a lovely piece of software and a community, I'm sure the future will be bright.

[zybex]

You
The CEO of JRiver is retiring. What is the best option for the company going forward?

ChatGPT
Determining the best option for JRiver would depend on various factors such as the company's current financial health, market position, industry trends, and the vision of its board of directors. However, some potential options for the company might include:

Succession Planning: Identifying and grooming an internal candidate to take over as CEO could provide continuity and stability for the company. This candidate should possess strong leadership skills, industry knowledge, and a clear understanding of JRiver's strategic goals.

External Recruitment: Conducting a thorough search for a new CEO from outside the company could bring fresh perspectives and expertise to JRiver. The ideal candidate would have a proven track record of success in the tech industry, particularly in areas relevant to JRiver's business.

Strategic Partnerships: Exploring strategic partnerships or alliances with other companies in the tech or entertainment industry could help JRiver leverage synergies, access new markets, and enhance its product offerings.

Product Diversification: Investing in research and development to diversify JRiver's product portfolio could mitigate risks associated with reliance on a single product or market segment. This could involve expanding into new areas such as streaming services, smart home technology, or digital content creation tools.

Focus on Customer Experience: Prioritizing customer satisfaction and investing in customer support, product quality, and user experience could help JRiver retain existing customers and attract new ones in a competitive market.

Ultimately, the best option for JRiver will depend on a thorough assessment of its internal capabilities, external market conditions, and long-term strategic objectives. It's essential for the company's leadership to carefully evaluate these factors and make informed decisions to ensure the company's continued success and growth.


Some alternate AIdeas it gave me:

1. Implement a "Reverse Customer Appreciation Day" where customers are actively discouraged from making purchases. Offer discounts on competitor products, provide terrible customer service, and install a faulty online payment system.

2. Replace all office chairs with unicycles and insist that employees must ride them at all times. Productivity may plummet, but the office circus would certainly be entertaining.

3. Invest all remaining company funds in a startup that promises to develop a revolutionary product: a self-driving lawn mower for underwater use. Sure, it sounds absurd, but imagine the marketing possibilities!
 
 

[zybex]

Jokes aside, sorry that this day is coming - you've been wanting it for long, so good for you.

None of the options are really ideal. I guess most people would prefer option 2 as a way of maintaining the status quo. From you PoV I think you should sell it, ideally to all/some employees so that they can continue it. Any other option will see the current developers eventually leave too (either retiring or finding work elsewhere to pay the bills). Selling it to a 3rd party will almost certainly be a death sentence for the product in the short/medium term.

I'm partial to option 3, but I would say that of course... but like Ashfall said, it's unpredictable.

An option 4 may be needed.

[JimH]

Keep the jokes coming.  Maybe it will lead somewhere.

I asked Eliza.  She got confused.

[Gl3nn]

Which choice would insure that existing users of purchased older versions can continue to get registration keys when we need them?

[JimH]

All three would.

[Awesome Donkey]

It's a tricky thing to consider.

Option 1 could go badly like some acquisitions (VMware is an unfortunate example) have happened as of late. Some big rival company might want to buy it all just to mothball it and get rid of the competition.

Option 2 seems like the most logical as long as there's guiding leadership and a roadmap of where to go. Lots of considerations.

Option 3... I'm not going to lie, this one is very intriguing but it could be a double edged sword and could go badly if there's no active development from contributers. The other potential downside is there's competition here in the form of Kodi, Plex, Emby, Jellyfin, etc. which are all open-source. Open-sourcing portions like JRVR could be very interesting and could become a very worthwhile alternative to madVR and the MPC Video Renderer. On the other hand it could evolve into something wonderful, again, double edged sword.

[mwillems]

Option 3... I'm not going to lie, this one is very intriguing but it could be a double edged sword and could go badly if there's no active development from contributers. The other potential downside is there's competition here in the form of Kodi, Plex, Emby, Jellyfin, etc. which are all open-source. Open-sourcing portions like JRVR could be very interesting and could become a very worthwhile alternative to madVR and the MPC Video Renderer. On the other hand it could evolve into something wonderful, again, double edged sword.

Just FYI Emby is definitely no longer open source, and I'm not sure Plex is either.  Jellyfin and Kodi would be the main open source competitors (although I think Jellyfin does something a little different than what JRiver does).

[Striker]

I'm old and I don't like change....

I recently did the work to move from the 32bit version of MC to the 64bit version.  I had been using the 2007 version of the PlayngNow plugin to notify me of track change and status change for use on screens all over my home.

Overall, the change was painful, but I have it working better now overall than I got with the PlayingNow plugin.

I'm 66... I could not imagine life without MediaCenter for Windows.  I fear that someday... it will stop working or I can't re-install on my PC with an OS "update".

I used to sell shareware... got lots of checks in the mail... good times.  When I finally decided that I would no longer support the program, I released a non-shareware free ware public domain version.

[jmone]

This post is going to be of little help I fear. 

We need to keep in mind that JimH is not only the Founder and CEO but (I presume) also the (sole or majority) owner of JRiver and may need the capital and/or an income stream to support his well-deserved retirement.... and that is a decision only he can make.

Expanding on Jim's options I see a few sub possibilities:

1.  Sell it (Jim realizes his capital).
  a) To an individual who becomes JimH_v2 : Nothing much changes for the staff and users.
  b) To an individual who has other ideas : Who know what changes there may be for staff and users (could be good/bad/indifferent).
  c) To a company entering this space (platform acquisition) : They normally want the Mgt, Staff, Users to hang around and don't make a lot of initial changes but have big growth expectations.
  d) To a company already in this space : Will normally want to strip the fixed costs and rationalize staff across the group.  Will want to keep the users but they may want to churn those users to a similar product.
  e) To the "team" (which could be a mix of developers, users, and other supporters) : Nothing much changes for the users as the new "mgt" is really the "old" mgt becoming owners.  The existing tasks done by JimH will need to be picked up by one or more of the new owners.  There will also be a different mgt dynamic as it is now run as a board of some form.

2.  Let it run and see what happens - (Jim continues with an income stream but becomes a silent owner - note: an ownership change will still happen at some point even if it is in an estate)
  a) No JimH replacement : Momentum will keep it going for some time but simple things like hiring decisions will be problematic and MC could end up as a headless chicken. 
  b) JimH appoints a successor: Aka JimH the 2nd.  Not much changes but there is another mouth to feed (pending on how "full time" that position would be).

3.  Make it open source and follow a strategy like Red Hat's. - Or the likes of of VideoLAN, OpenHab Foundation etc.  While this is interesting, it is more of a licensing and organizational structure change.  It would be still a subset of the other two options (most likely #2) pending Jim's capital / income needs.

4.  Some mix of all of the above:  Partial sale etc.

This is a time of uncertainty for JRiver, Staff, and Users.... but mostly for the existing Staff who have invested decades of their lives and are the lifeblood of JRiver.  I for one would hate to see anyone go (even JimH) but time does march on.
 I'm sure Jim will arrive at a decision that balances all the competing requirements and that those end of year bonus keeps the team on board! 
 

[comox]

MC is a very important part of my life. No matter what happens, I will continue to use MC every day until I'm dead in 10 or so years. If in a worst case scenario JRiver support stopped and Microsoft introduced an incompatibility I would roll back Windows and stay there forever.

Forty years ago I was a pretty good software developer and I know the value of software is primarily the team and not so much the code. So my top priority is to keep the team happily working on MC.

Without knowing what Jim wants or needs, nor what the team wants, nor what can be afforded, there's little more I can say except to offer a degree of freedom.

I'm pretty happy with the product as it is. If new feature development slowed I would continue to pay annual updates if that's what it took to keep key members of the team working on it.

Best wishes Jim for your retirement and thanks for an important part of my life.

[lello]

As for me, I just can't imagine using any other program to watch movies or TV series.

I am retired and I understand Jimh's desire to retire very well, but I hope that he can continue to see his creation continue to grow.

Of the 3 options, in my opinion the most feasible is 2

[JimH]

Without knowing what Jim wants or needs ...

My main goal is to see the company and product continue.  Money is secondary.  I've always owned a commercial building or two, and those turned out to be rewarding.  I sell enough art to pay for my travel.

The team is also really important to me.  I'd like to see them continue to win. 

Thanks, comox, and everyone else for the kind words.

[JimH]

We need to keep in mind that JimH is not only the Founder and CEO but (I presume) also the (sole or majority) owner of JRiver

Sole owner.

and may need the capital and/or an income stream ...

Would be nice but not necessary.

[Magic_Randy]

My main goal is to see the company and product continue.  Money is secondary.  I've always owned a commercial building or two, and those turned out to be rewarding.  I sell enough art to pay for my travel.

The team is also really important to me.  I'd like to see them continue to win. 

Thanks, comox, and everyone else for the kind words.

Just a thought.  Have you considered making it an employee owned company?

The existing staff would own a share of the company. Some % would be held for new employees who would be incentivized to join and provide the capacity/skills to continue to grow the business.

This would be similar to option 2 with a team that has a vested interest in making it succeed and grow.

Randy

EDIT:
BTW, I would vote against option 3. To make this option fly there would likely need to be significant investment to make it work.

[EdBrady]

I suppose option #2 would be the easy choice for current users, since nothing would really change. I admit though I think #3 is the best for the long-run and might allow JRiver to last decades longer.

[JimH]

I would vote against option 3. To make this option fly there would likely need to be significant investment to make it work.

Why?

[JimH]

Just a thought.  Have you considered making it an employee owned company?

An ESOP?  Yes, it's a possibility.

[craigmcg]

I really like Magic Randy's suggestion as everyone works harder/smarter when they see the rewards of their efforts.  Congrats to the retirees, whether fully or partially retired!

[Magic_Randy]

Why?

It's been awhile since I studied this, but

Making the software open source by itself does not require an investment. But that does not make a business like Red Hat.

To make this a business, you need a company that does all of the things a company like Red Hat does. Marketing, partner management, certification programs, developing the community, .....

If I were trying to go open source, I would go with option 1 and target companies that were open source companies with all the skills and disciplines needed that could take on another product line.

Randy

[mattkhan]

Opening the source does not mean becoming an open source service company

The main benefit to opening it would be to make it possible for community to extend features if they were able to build it themselves. I would think doing this would require the ability to prevent such builds from using jriver hosted services (akin to how old software versions are now cutoff). It would be more like how something like HomeAssistant is run these days, software is open, anyone can build it and self host, cloud services are sold on top of this.

I have no clue whether this model is viable for MC.

[Zootsuit]

I’m late seeing the original message, so my apologies for a belated response.

I spent a professional lifetime doing conventional business acquisitions,. I have never seen a deal where the acquiring entity did not make significant operational and administrative changes post-close. You can write all the fancy contractual language you can come up with, it won’t prevent the buyer from making significant changes. And it will.

In theory, alternative two, which likely will take the form of an ESOP, is the best alternative. A couple of observations on that however. First someone needs to be the ultimate decision maker. Only Jim knows whether he has the right person on staff. There are any number of configurations that prioritize collegiality, but everyone needs to know that some person or persons will have the ultimate call.

The other observation is that ESOPs are reasonably complex. There are reporting requirements and requirements for periodic valuation, depending upon the structure of the deal with the controlling owner. (I won’t go down that rabbit hole. )Business owners love the concept, they just hate the administration.

There are specialists who act as advisors for business owners who are contemplating, an ESOP structure, but they tend to be almost messianic about its virtues,, and notably silent about the difficulties.

I can’t comment on option three. That’s way above my pay grade.

Option four: Freeze the company, staff and ownership in amber until I run my final lap. I can’t imagine my musical life without  JRiver Media Center. Once I’m gone, have at it.

[JimH]

In response to last two posts by zootsuit and mattkahn, I don't think we'd be able to handle more complexity, with respect to law, reporting, or administration.  The solution needs to be reasonably clean, clear, and simple.

[Gl3nn]

All three would.

Sorry, don't believe it as it relates to #1.  Really incredible that you would believe so given the many examples from the past 10 years.

Can you say 'Quicken'?

[JimH]

Sorry, don't believe it as it relates to #1.  Really incredible that you would believe so given the many examples from the past 10 years.

Can you say 'Quicken'?

Worry about future problems in the future.

[comox]

Can you say 'Quicken'?

Quicken grrrr... You wouldn't believe the hacks I've had to do to continue to access my 25 years of data without paying them a subscription fee. I hate them.

[comox]

The technology marriage I'd like to see is JRiver + Collectorz.com.

I've used Move Collector for about the same 20 years I've used JRiver. It's a royal pain in the ass maintaining metadata in two places for the same media. The features of Movie Collector and JRiver need to be in one product.

Despite Movie Collector being best in class I think their technology and team is crap compared to JRiver, so I would only support a marriage if JRiver was in charge.

[antenna]

My main goal is to see the company and product continue. ...

I'll be honest, this is a tough comment for me to write.

Let me say right up front, as a person who has directed a Software Engineering team in a Fortune 5 company, I fully understand and acknowledge all that has been accomplished to bring MC to the fore.

I have previously commented upon my admiration of the architecture of MC.

I mean, the first time I was referred to the Core Commands page ( https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Media_Center_Core_Commands ), I had to take a step back and just admire the architecture behind those commands.  This was a program that I used merely to listen to tunes.  Then I got a whiff of the architecture.

I mean, friggin' wow. 

So yeah, please try to achieve your goal.

The MC team is among the best that I have had the privilege to work with.

The effort put into MC is real.

Please, let it live on.

[Gl3nn]

Quicken grrrr... You wouldn't believe the hacks I've had to do to continue to access my 25 years of data without paying them a subscription fee. I hate them.

Ditto.

I'm still running 2015 but Intuit's sale of Quicken to less than ethical company made it more than difficult to simply reinstall software that you legitimately purchased.  They cheat and prevent it hoping you'll give up and pay for their subscription model.

There are countless other examples of similar buy-outs.

If JRiver goes this route I would hope they allow their loyal customers to download a registration file for older versions of MCxxx that has no time expiration.

[abrise]

I have been using JRiver for almost 20 years now. It runs 24H a day 7 days a week on several of my computers. This piece of software is the only one essential to me as there is definitely no equivalent product in the market. It is essential that this company survives and to do so the software has to be continually adapted to new standards and needs even if it is slowly. Then the team which is probably not very young also has to remain or even reinforced with new blood,  which means that solution 1 and 3 are not recommended. I hope you will find something derived from solution 2 with a kind of lmbo or esop, the most difficult being to find a manager.

[comox]

The product is more likely to remain a niche tool for enthusiasts who want to "roll their own" and not give in exclusively to streaming or more complex library tools like Roon.

I agree but think of it differently. MC is targeted squarely at serious collectors of media. Hence my suggestion above that the perfect marriage would be with Collectorz.com.

Another possible and no doubt controversial idea would be to target the prepper community that expects the internet to fail due to resource depletion and/or WWIII and that seeks to build self-reliant entertainment systems that do not require an internet.

[MikeO]

An option 2

Congrats on your retirement Jim , I guess it will tough to let go of the baby.

Whilst many users are IT literate , the open source bit worries me that I may have to become conversant with how to manage open source software.

As a retired developer I am actively trying to cut down my screen time , I suspect the open source option may fore more of that ...

As it is currently it requires a minimal IT savvy , just applying updates even that is mostly auto

[BillT]

I don't think OS software would be any worse than Windows software on the update front.

W11s' appallingly badly designed UI has made me finally move to Linux as the main computer and that seems to update perfectly adequately; it offers you updates when available and you can install or not. Like wise I've recently started with Home Assistant to replace commercial Windows software that is gradually fading away. That also automatically checks for updates and gives you the choice to install or not. No particular technical knowledge or skill required (apart from that needed to set up and use them, but that's no worse than closed source versions).

I'm sure an OS version of MC would operate as it does now.

[comox]

What about Matt taking over with volunteer support from a few of us experienced retired software developer/managers?

[atreides]

Is there an employee that works for you that would be qualified to "buy" the company possibly through some kind of revenue sharing arrangement for some period of time?  Selling your company to a 3rd party seems like a bad idea for everyone except for you (the owner).  I'm not sure this has ever worked out for anyone else.

[Gl3nn]

Selling your company to a 3rd party seems like a bad idea for everyone except for you (the owner).  I'm not sure this has ever worked out for anyone else.

+1

[tkolsto]

How is this going to continue? Do I need to worry?

[cmp240]

Newbie here,

Considering purchasing at this time, kinda bummed to hear about this,may make my decision between Jrvr and Roon easier,
either way, I would certainly go with option 3

I still believe ill go with Jrvr, still researching though

Glad to be here

[JimH]

How is this going to continue? Do I need to worry?

It's always a good idea to worry a little.

[HTPC Videophile]

If money is not a major criteria as you have  stated and as you are already open to making it a  free source as per option 3, a better option would be to gift it to some deserving developers at a reasonable token price  (like Hendrik, Matt ......) who would nurture the product like their own rather than selling it to 3rd party. On top of that a fixed and reasonable share of profits could be fixed for you from the sales.

[comox]

What does the team want? Do they want to keep the product going? Under what conditions?

I don't expect an answer because it's an internal matter and none of my business but it's probably the most important question.

I really hope a solution is found. MC is too good and too unique to let die.

[zybex]

MC is too good and too unique to let die.

The role reversal is ironic. JRiver has worried for the past 10 years that its user base was [literally] dying out, now we're worried that JRiver will fade before us

[JimH]

Enough hand wringing.

[tkolsto]

If money is not a major criteria as you have  stated and as you are already open to making it a  free source as per option 3, a better option would be to gift it to some deserving developers at a reasonable token price  (like Hendrik, Matt ......) who would nurture the product like their own rather than selling it to 3rd party. On top of that a fixed and reasonable share of profits could be fixed for you from the sales.

I do worry bc You Guys are the only ones that deliver and develop a product that one can not get else where in terms of Forum and the product itself audiovise and videovise(JRVR is unik and very good). I Am just a layman but I do not like any of the alternatives above. Dream solution is that somebody can further the development in the same way as it has always been driven. But that is wishful thinking. Is streaming taking completly over videovise(which is sooo booring!!).

I think and hope there will be good future for this product, because it is an excellent music and video renderer!!

[atreides]

Do you have any children who may be interested in the company? You could keep it in the family while also retaining the team and culture.

I think Option 1 is almost guaranteed to either end JRiver or make it something you wouldn't want it to be.

[drugo]

Hi

what a bad news , really I have just installed few days ago ,and now ,i'm reading this bad news

well even i'm not a real user since i'm using the trial mode ,just for testing and learn something , there are so many features,i need time

with all the respect , I would like to say , if i may
1) Let it run and see what happens.
yes but with some assurances to keep an amazing software ,just because some great softwares after they have been sold  ,they have have become really useless or even worst

2) if there is not certain , the open source would be really great , keeping to develop a wonderfull software like JRiver media center with Love and made with  Love by you "the developers" ,could  be fair for a beautiful software love as I know by many and many users
again with all the respect , i have looked for a perfect software and sadly i have found few days ago, my

thanks