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[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Guys, I'm getting some serious phase / polarity issues when using a VST3 plugin in MC 33.0.72. It may have existed for a while, I'm unsure.

Was anything done recently to the VST3 and 7.1.4 channel configs in MC? When I use the same plugin (Hang Loose Convolver) outside of MC, routing to it via Blackhole, everything sounds perfect.

[The Computer Audiophile]

I went back to MC 33.0.44 and the issue isn't present in that version. Something seems off with VST3 plugins and 7.1.4 channel configs in new versions of MC.

[mattkhan]

probably

33.0.67 (2/13/2025)

1. Changed: Revised the layout of 12 channel VST3 to be the standard 7.1.4 and 13 channel to be 7.1.4 + extra LFE.

33.0.65 (2/6/2025)

3. Changed: Added speaker layouts for 13 and 14 channel VST3 output.

there's a thread on the windows board on the subject IIRC

[The Computer Audiophile]

I will also add, the issue is totally gone on all versions of MC when using the native convolution engine, that doesn't require VST3 plugins.

[The Computer Audiophile]

I settled on MC version 33.0.53 for now. Hopefully the newest versions can be adjusted.

[whoareyou]

Is this happening only with  7.1.4, or other formats, and is this based strictly on listening?  I'm trying to understand how to test this out. Haven't done much listening lately, but I haven't noticed anything odd (so far).

[JimH]

Both Matt and Bob are out this week.

[mattkhan]

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,140559.msg975276.html#msg975276

The channel mapping change is in the above post

If you don't expect this change then clearly it's going to cause problems

[The Computer Audiophile]

Is this happening only with  7.1.4, or other formats, and is this based strictly on listening?  I'm trying to understand how to test this out. Haven't done much listening lately, but I haven't noticed anything odd (so far).

My channel setup is 7.1.4 and I first noticed it with the new Quadio material that I received. It's 4.0, played in a 7.1.4 / 12 channel container because I have 7.1.4 selcted in MC.

I noticed it by ear for sure. It sounded out of phase and without much bass. My audio interface, Merging Anubis, has phase / polarity inversion buttons for each channel. I flipped the polarity on the rear channels and the sound seemed to come back into phase, with much better bass.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Both Matt and Bob are out this week.

Thanks Jim. Using an older version is fine for me right now.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Is this happening only with  7.1.4, or other formats, and is this based strictly on listening?  I'm trying to understand how to test this out. Haven't done much listening lately, but I haven't noticed anything odd (so far).

One addition thing just came to mind. If you have any quad content that uses the front L and R, and rear L and R, it's much easier to hear the issue. I believe the VST3 switch to Steinberg left the first 6 or so channels the same. Singling out the front and rear make it easy. Let me know if you need any test content for 4.0 that plays in a 7.1.4 container in MC.

[whoareyou]

Yeah, you are absolutely right about this.  Finally got back to listening and it's easy to hear issues.
I just realized this is Mac forum, but it's same on windows where I am listening. 

When you play Dolby's Atmos 7.1.4 test wav file through system, you can see the differences between old and new version processing from within the hang loose visualization display.  Solely going by HangLoose visualization, the wrong channels are being convolved by the newer versions of JRiver.  Switch to older JRiver version and the visualization displays the correct channel processing and output sounds "right".

Although VST processing is wrong, the final output plays to the correct channels.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Yeah, you are absolutely right about this.  Finally got back to listening and it's easy to hear issues.
I just realized this is Mac forum, but it's same on windows where I am listening. 

When you play Dolby's Atmos 7.1.4 test wav file through system, you can see the differences between old and new version processing from within the hang loose visualization display.  Solely going by HangLoose visualization, the wrong channels are being convolved by the newer versions of JRiver.  Switch to older JRiver version and the visualization displays the correct channel processing and output sounds "right".

Although VST processing is wrong, the final output plays to the correct channels.

This is my exact dillema. Audio somehow gets to the correct channels, but receives the incorrect room correction.

I'd say it's because of the switch to Steinberg VST 71_4 format.

Microsoft and Steinberg: LRCLfe Lrs Rrs Lss Rss Ltf Rtf Ltr Rtr

SMPTE/ITU, Dolby (industry norm, logical order of the speakers in pairs from front to back) : LRCLfe Lss Rss Lrs Rrs Ltf Rtf Ltr Rtr


Given 99.99999% of music in 7.1.4 is in Dolby format, it makes sense to keep the Dolby mapping.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Here is one example of the LEft Side Surround channel appearing to get the correction from the Left Top Rear.

The GREEN bar is where the loudest music should be location. The RED arrow is where it actually is.

[The Computer Audiophile]

And here's the Quadio four channel album that really enabled me to hear something is wrong. The rear channels are getting the filter for the side channels.

[whoareyou]

Yup.   When I first tested the new release, I didn't notice this happening.  BTW - Did you notice there is a windows 34.0.20 release that allows for end user configuration?

11. NEW: VST3 can have the channel selection fully manual to fine tune your speaker profile (Options > Audio > Advanced > VST Channel Selection).

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes_MC34

[The Computer Audiophile]

Yup.   When I first tested the new release, I didn't notice this happening.  BTW - Did you notice there is a windows 34.0.20 release that allows for end user configuration?

11. NEW: VST3 can have the channel selection fully manual to fine tune your speaker profile (Options > Audio > Advanced > VST Channel Selection).

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes_MC34

Yes. I tried 34.0.20 on both Windows and Mac, but no difference in outcome.

I'm at a loss for what to do.

[whoareyou]

I think this works, but I'm not sure why???  And if this is really the mapping, then how does that relate to the VST3's channel mapping? 

I tried this based on the following:

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,140559.msg975271.html#msg975271

Then from steinberg documentation:
https://steinbergmedia.github.io/vst3_doc/vstinterfaces/namespaceSteinberg_1_1Vst_1_1SpeakerArr.html#a740b694bcebcd228836a5610feeeb929

◆ k111
const SpeakerArrangement k111 = k110 | kSpeakerLfe
L R C Lfe Ls Rs Tc Tfl Tfc Tfr Trl Trr.

[The Computer Audiophile]

I think this works, but I'm not sure why???  And if this is really the mapping, then how does that relate to the VST3's channel mapping? 

I tried this based on the following:

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,140559.msg975271.html#msg975271

Then from steinberg documentation:
https://steinbergmedia.github.io/vst3_doc/vstinterfaces/namespaceSteinberg_1_1Vst_1_1SpeakerArr.html#a740b694bcebcd228836a5610feeeb929

◆ k111
const SpeakerArrangement k111 = k110 | kSpeakerLfe
L R C Lfe Ls Rs Tc Tfl Tfc Tfr Trl Trr.

Yes. Standby for something special from Matt :~)

[whoareyou]

Now you have me intrigued   Thanks

[Matt]

The Computer Audiophile was a huge help. Thanks.

A coming build of MC34 will nicely handle 7.1.4 channel layouts and translate between the MC and VST channel ordering.