Topic: Emusic (Read 29834 times)

NY40Male · « **on:** October 22, 2002, 06:26:08 pm »

Subj: NOTICE OF SUBSCRIPTION TERMINATION [#632016]
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:14:53 -0700
From: service@emusic.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
NOTICE OF SUBSCRIPTION TERMINATION

Your EMusic.com subscription has been permanently
terminated pursuant to sections 5.3 and 7.1 of the
EMusic.com Subscription Agreement due to account
activity in violation of the terms and spirit of the
EMusic service.

The monthly subscription fee collected by EMusic.com
with respect to the current period shall be reimbursed
to your credit card account and EMusic.com will not
bill for those months remaining of your subscription
commitment period.

You are reminded that use of content downloaded from
EMusic.com remains subject to section 8 of the
EMusic.com Subscription Agreement (http://www.emusic.com/bem/new_signup/terms.html) and
the EMusic Rights and Responsibilities
(http://emusic.com/about/rights2.html) guidelines.

Questions or comments should be directed to:
legal@emusic.com. EMusic.com customer support will
not be able to provide you with any information or
assistance regarding this matter.

Any Clue About This?

NY40Male · « **Reply #1 on:** October 22, 2002, 06:28:59 pm »

5.3 Because the Service is designed for personal sampling and use, you are not allowed to use any automated system for the selection or downloading of files. EMusic reserves the right to immediately and permanently terminate your access to the Service if EMusic believes that you are violating such limitation

So If You Use MJ Download Manager They Cancel Your Subscription?...Can I Get Any Help On This?

michel · « **Reply #2 on:** October 22, 2002, 10:03:33 pm »

I have just received the same email.

Since JRiver displays a banner of EMusic, may be they could explain to EMusic that MJ is a download manager, not an automated system for the selection or downloading of files.

HW808 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 23, 2002, 05:01:18 am »

Got the same email this morning

. I contacted both their service and legal departments and will post their reply if and when I get it.

A clarification from JRiver that the relevant MJ functionality is pretty much equivalent to Zinf and their own Download Manager might indeed be helpful.

JimH · « **Reply #4 on:** October 23, 2002, 05:12:05 am »

I'm sorry for the confusion and I'm sure that Emusic will also apologize once they understand what their system has done.

It is a mistake somewhere at Emusic. Our download manager was developed with the full knowledge and cooperation of Emusic.

We should be able to find out more for you later today when California wakes up.

Jim Hillegass
CEO, JRiver

michel · « **Reply #5 on:** October 23, 2002, 05:25:38 am »

Thanks Jim.

PeterS · « **Reply #6 on:** October 23, 2002, 10:52:28 am »

To all MJ users who received the Termination message:

We talked to EMusic today and they confirmed that messages had been sent out to individuals who had, in their estimation, breached certain rules that they have in place, to do with such activities as password usage or download behavior.

An official response will be sent to us and posted on this board as soon as we get it. We are doing our best to sort this out and bring it to a satisfactory resolution.

PeterS

zevele10 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 23, 2002, 11:05:40 am »

I try to have my subscription canceled.
Allmost 12 hours i download with MJ DM and nothinghappens!!!
Beside this i have speed download of a phone connection,not ADSL.
And my connection is fine at this time

michel · « **Reply #8 on:** October 23, 2002, 11:29:05 am »

Quote

such activities as password usage or download behavior

password usage: I didn't give my password

download behaviour: I downloaded 4000 files in a few weeks (I have an ADSL line so I could download much more) but there is no limit indicated in the subscription contract

Anyway, at this time, my account is ever open and I can download music. It is strange because they wrote me:

Your EMusic.com subscription has been permanently
terminated[/b] pursuant to sections 5.3 and 7.1 of the
EMusic.com Subscription Agreement due to account
activity in violation of the terms and spirit of the
EMusic service.

So wait & see... hum, I mean, download & see

KingSparta · « **Reply #9 on:** October 23, 2002, 11:41:18 am »

michel

6 months ago or so i downloaded more than that (more like 60,000).

JimH · « **Reply #10 on:** October 23, 2002, 12:08:42 pm »

King,
Were you cancelled?

We're trying to determine where the limit is. Emusic has said there is one, but they haven't said what it is.

Jim

zevele10 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 23, 2002, 12:16:21 pm »

But Michel and MaleNY40 are not testers?

NY40Male · « **Reply #12 on:** October 23, 2002, 12:52:20 pm »

Nope I'm Just A Person That Acquires Good Music
If Need Be I Will Just Open Another Account Until
They Kick Me Off Again..King Can Download 60,000
Songs But I Download 15,000 Songs And I'm Booted
You Gotta Love America....Zevele Can I Move To
Israel With You, I'm 1/2 Jewish

JimH · « **Reply #13 on:** October 23, 2002, 12:57:46 pm »

NY,
Hang on a day or two and let's give Emusic a chance to resolve this. Of all the possible subscription services available, their rules have generally been pretty liberal. Let's see if we can't find something that works for both you and them.

Jim

NY40Male · « **Reply #14 on:** October 23, 2002, 12:58:34 pm »

You Pay 9.99 A Month To Download All You Want...But Where Does It Say Anywhere There Is A Limit?..And What Is The Limit?....Unlimited Downloads I Think Is What They Advertise...

NY40Male · « **Reply #15 on:** October 23, 2002, 01:01:45 pm »

Their Front Page Says Unlimited MP3's....Or Is This A Problem Because Were Using MJ Download Manager And Getting 500 Songs A Night Instead Of Getting 500 Songs With Their Download Manager?.....Gotta Love It

JimH · « **Reply #16 on:** October 23, 2002, 01:08:15 pm »

Quote

Their Front Page Says Unlimited MP3's

I agree that their marketing is not accurate. I expressed concern about that in e-mail to them a few hours ago.

zevele10 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 23, 2002, 01:21:40 pm »

In allmost 2 years i downloaded milions times more than King.
This does not mean i still have the songs.
I downloaded many times the same albums.From many computers and from 3 countrys .
Or it is that they found you on an Hillary program?....But in this case........
I may be wrong ,but MaleNy40 have a year contract,not 3 months.
Anyway,i want them to close me...no succes...

zevele10 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 23, 2002, 01:24:14 pm »

If your mother jewsh,you get israeki ID at the airport,if your father jewish,more problems.
But you would have the same problem with Emusic and not the 'US only songs' So.....

michel · « **Reply #19 on:** October 23, 2002, 01:28:01 pm »

Quote

I may be wrong ,but MaleNy40 have a year contract,not 3 months.

I have (had ?) a 3 months contract.

michel · « **Reply #20 on:** October 23, 2002, 01:30:54 pm »

Quote

Anyway,i want them to close me...no succes...

For sure, now they know you downloaded the whole catalog they prefer you stay to pay until the end of the year-contract.

zevele10 · « **Reply #21 on:** October 23, 2002, 01:49:00 pm »

Far from it! Never downloaded any electro,sountracks and many other.
This week i did all they Doom Metal and Stoner Rock albums.Around 100 albums.
But they login is a paint in the ...
I have sites with ALL the bands in the world.I do copy\paste to search Emusic.Of cause they do not have all the bands.So i can do 10 times copy\paste and when i find an album,i have to login again.I can't stand it.
This and the 'US only' make me think i may stop.

Look like the problem is number of songs/kind of contract

NY40Male · « **Reply #22 on:** October 23, 2002, 02:23:41 pm »

I Signed Up For The Year Contract....I Wouldn't Cancel For 10 Years..They Have (Some) Good Stuff That I Like..Alot Of The Stuff I'm Acquiring, I'm Doing So Just To Have Say B.B. King...
But I Have A Question....Is This A Download Manager Problem Or Is This A "We Taken Too Much Of The Buffet To Eat So No More Buffet?"
Mother Was Jewish...I Was BarMitzvahed When I Was 13...Can't/Couldn't Read A Word Of It..Rabbi Knew It And He Had Me Memorize It. And To This Day..Can't Read A Word Of It Either..(But Then Again English Is A 2nd Language To Me Too)

zevele10 · « **Reply #23 on:** October 23, 2002, 02:48:48 pm »

I am not good at yeddish.My mother family come from Spain-500 years ago-
And my father is the sole[? the only one i mean] survivor of a large family.And was for a part from spanish origine
NOTHING to do with death camps ,only war.

At my Bar Mitzva i got my first stereo-Dual amp/tuner,turnable and Dual speakers.And a truck -well what look like a truck at this age- of lps and eps with sleeves. A lot of them from US and Canada from the canadian family and from England.My grand mother did a trip there to get me records.

I agree with you,the Emusic catalogue is at the alternative level 100% the music i like.

Having a one year deal,it is hard to think it is because of heavy downloads.
We may know soon with the help of JimH

I just can read the "introduction' when going to Thora.To read 10 words from the text would take me more than the 24 hours of the shabbat.
Beside this i am not going to Thora that often on Shabbat .Except if you see punk concerts as something aking to it............

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 23, 2002, 04:46:40 pm »

I download hundreds of songs with Media Jukebox Download Manager. I tried to let my subsciption lapse. In fact, it cut me off at the promised time and date. Well and good. If I can't decide, I let fate handle it (Zen, huh?) and I couldn't decide whether to renew or not. So I just let it go. I though it went.

I was looking at my bank balance the other day and noticed a withdrawal of $14.99 from E-Music. I relogged in and used my old log-in and password and I was back on again. I guess I can go on a month by month basis so, theoretically, I'm under no contract obligation because I never renewed. They can live with an extra $5/month, I can live with no obligation. I was really shying away from that "year" thing.

Everything worked out (remember Zen?). If they cancel because of some wierdness, c'est la vie. Or as Doris day said "Que Sera Sera". If that ain't spelled right, tough toenails. I'm Southern. English is just barely my first language and only by default. French is kind of foreign to me.

CVIII

zevele10 · « **Reply #25 on:** October 23, 2002, 05:26:50 pm »

You mean that they toke a 4th month?
If yes a mistake,not a steal,and,as you say,if ok with you...2 years ago,i had phone 56 kps connection.When i saw all the music i wanted,the only way was one year.
The good thing with one year is that you are not in rush.
I spend few weeks without even have a look at Emusic.

Last year ,from a legal site at $ 25 a month,i got 10.000 songs in one month,but i spent most of my days just filling the download manager.

C'est la vie [french] is correct
Que sera sera as well.Spanish and you need alt+132 on e.To make short an ' on each e.
When in the south ,i started to learn the South Fried Chicken english.
It was painfull to speak with the mouth full of chicken just out of the hot oil...,even with the honey

JSmithson · « **Reply #26 on:** October 24, 2002, 03:57:41 am »

Add me to the list of cancelled Emusic people.....
Please keep us updated .....

jim

yosISme · « **Reply #27 on:** October 24, 2002, 08:28:02 am »

Cancelled me to.

I really don't like being accused of cheating, when in fact it seems to be them that is breaking the agreement.

I wrote to their legal dept. before even seeing this thread. Haven't heard back in two days though.

Too bad - I was really enjoying their service. This is certainly not the way to build good word of mouth, or "word of net" publicity.

I wonder what their payment system is to their artists. If it is a percentage of revenue, then there would be no reason to cancel anyone. However, if it is some formula based on the number of downloads, then they may be dropping people who are not profitable customers because they are power users. As stated above, that would certainly seem to violate their terms of an unlimited account.

Of course, it also says in section 7.1 of their agreement that you are agreeing that they can drop you at any time for any reason.

JimH · « **Reply #28 on:** October 24, 2002, 09:28:42 am »

Update: It's been about 24 hours since we had a chance to discuss this problem with Emusic people. They realize there is a problem and they take it very seriously.

I expect Emusic to modify their position but they haven't given us a formal response yet. They need to clear it with their legal team and this will take a little time.

Please stay tuned.

Note that I have deleted a couple of posts that I thought were inflammatory. Your patience is appreciated.

PeterS · « **Reply #29 on:** October 24, 2002, 09:43:07 am »

Further to Jim's message:

In my discussion with EMusic about this matter, they indicated that they would be willing to reinstate those individuals who took part in the MJ/EMusic beta test. No further word on that yet. I do have e-mail addresses for all of those who took part and will contact them in due course.

PeterS

JimH · « **Reply #30 on:** October 24, 2002, 10:24:15 am »

Here is what we have just heard from EMusic. We don't believe it is enough, and we will ask for more, but at least it is a start. Your comments are welcome.

Jim Hillegass
JRiver/Media Jukebox

========================================
EMusic Statement:

The focus and mission of EMusic is to provide avid music fans a source to sample and acquire music in the MP3 format for personal use and enjoyment. Unlike other subscription offerings, we have gone to great lengths to provide our members with an open, easy-to-use service that allows maximum flexibility we believe consumers are seeking. Our policies are focused on trusting that our subscribers will use the service and the music they acquire responsibly.

Unfortunately, a small number of subscribers do not follow the usage terms outlined in our terms and conditions. To maintain our low price and continue to provide a flexible service, we work hard to minimize this abuse by monitoring the site for unusual activity. Examples of violations include the sharing of passwords, use of automated systems to download massive numbers of tracks, and other activity on the site in excess of what is reasonable for anyone's personal use. Accounts that we believe are violating the terms and spirit of the service are subject to cancellation.

EMusic.com

ibusinesslawyer · « **Reply #31 on:** October 24, 2002, 10:31:50 am »

What is the EMusic-MJ beta test?

NY40Male · « **Reply #32 on:** October 24, 2002, 10:35:28 am »

So KingSparta Can Download 60,000 Cause Hes Good Friends Of Jim H And JRiver But Us Poor Old Common Folks Download 15,000 And We Get Terminated
Don't Worry No One Will Read This JimH Will Delete It..Its Against JRiver Policy To Say Anything Bad About JimH Or JRiver

JimH · « **Reply #33 on:** October 24, 2002, 10:36:11 am »

We worked with EMusic doing a beta of their new system that opened about 10 days ago. It allows album downloads. We modified our software and added improvements to our download manager that were tailored to the new system. About 40 people from among our users were participants, testing both our software and EMusic's own software. There is a board here devoted to it.

yosISme · « **Reply #34 on:** October 24, 2002, 10:38:10 am »

So basically they are saying they cancelled people for downloading too much on their unlimited account...

This is very upsetting.

Also, I was not part of the MJ/Emusic beta test, so I wouldn't assume those are the only people who got cancelled.

I did use the MJ DM a few weeks ago, but only for about 20 songs maybe, then I switched to Zinf, and eventually to Emusic's own DM.

I think this has more to do with volume than what we used to download.

I downloaded maybe about 200-300 albums over 2 to 3 weeks. So I'd guess their magic number is somewhere less than that.

ibusinesslawyer · « **Reply #35 on:** October 24, 2002, 10:38:57 am »

What about folks who were unwitting participants in the beta test, i.e., who used JRiver's software on a trial basis, without knowing anything about a beta program, and were terminated by EMusic as a result?

JimH · « **Reply #36 on:** October 24, 2002, 10:56:07 am »

Quote

What about folks who were unwitting participants in the beta test, i.e., who used JRiver's software on a trial basis, without knowing anything about a beta program, and were terminated by EMusic as a result?

That didn't happen. They needed a special version that created a special cookie.

yosISme · « **Reply #37 on:** October 24, 2002, 11:04:38 am »

I just want to stress again that I don't think this is tied to the beta MJ DM. I was NOT using this, and received the same message as others.

It's either ANY version of the MJ DM, or it has nothing to do with that at all and is strictly VOLUME related.

My gut feeling was it was volume related only, however, after searching several other places on the net, I am only finding this discussion here - related to MJ. So perhaps the MJ DM somehow triggered something in their fraud detection measures.

JimH · « **Reply #38 on:** October 24, 2002, 11:07:54 am »

Quote

So perhaps the MJ DM somehow triggered something in their fraud detection measures.

Very possible, even though it was developed with the full knowledge and support of EMusic.

PeterS · « **Reply #39 on:** October 24, 2002, 11:10:09 am »

Okay, let's be clear about a couple of things:

JRiver did not know about any EMusic policy to terminate subscribers for downloading too many files. It is as much a surprise to us as to you.

We were not consulted regarding any terminations before they were made, so it is certainly not a case of playing favorites.

We only know what we have told you. Please direct your concerns and questions about EMusic policy to them.

PeterS

JimH · « **Reply #40 on:** October 24, 2002, 01:50:30 pm »

I've talked with the EMusic people again. They have agreed to reinstate MJ users who participated in the beta program. This should happen in the next few days.

If you were not in the beta program but have been terminated, please send an e-mail to jimh @ jriver.com summarizing what your activity with EMusic has been. I'd like to see if I can understand what sort of activity has triggered the terminations. I'd like to know roughly how long you have subscribed and about how many tracks you may have downloaded during that time. Also whether you used a download manager and whose it was.

There is something more that may be helpful to understand. Each time a track is downloaded from EMusic or any other service, there is a royalty of around 7 cents due for the copyright owner. This means that if you're paying a fixed monthly fee, there is a threshold below which the download service can make money. It was described to me as something like an all-you-can-eat buffet. It isn't fair to bring your wheelbarrow.

We've done as much as I think we can now. Your best bet is to deal directly with EMusic. Please keep us informed of your progress.

yosISme · « **Reply #41 on:** October 24, 2002, 02:21:21 pm »

Personally, I think this says it all:

I guess the boundaries of my musical interests were beyond their limits.

If they can only make money below a certain point, then they need to alter their business model accordingly.

It is very deceptive to advertise UNLIMITED, and then just cut you off if you happen to actually use their service beyond a certain point.

Also, I wonder if the "Emusic subscriber" quoted above has been terminated due to his excessive, hours a day, downloading habits.

ibusinesslawyer · « **Reply #42 on:** October 24, 2002, 02:48:13 pm »

The screenshot in the last post says it all, and I hope at this point JRiver will leave the post up. EMusic has "unlimited" all over their promotional material. Folks who believe they have been unfairly terminated should consider filing a complaint with the FTC at https://rn.ftc.gov/dod/wsolcq$.startup?Z_ORG_CODE=PU01 and/or the California State Attorney General's office, http://caag.state.ca.us/consumers/mailform.htm. You might also consider writing to the RIAA, http://riaa.org/Contact.cfm, a trade organization for the music industry, and telling them what you think about this kind of business practice by a so-called "legitimate" download service.

[Please note that the foregoing does not constitute legal advice]

NY40Male · « **Reply #43 on:** October 24, 2002, 03:00:54 pm »

I Love Laywers.. They Know All The Good Stuff

yosISme · « **Reply #44 on:** October 24, 2002, 03:06:29 pm »

Quote

The screenshot in the last post says it all, and I hope at this point JRiver will leave the post up. EMusic has "unlimited" all over their promotional material. Folks who believe they have been unfairly terminated should consider filing a complaint with the FTC at https://rn.ftc.gov/dod/wsolcq$.startup?Z_ORG_CODE=PU01 and/or the California State Attorney General's office, http://caag.state.ca.us/consumers/mailform.htm. You might also consider writing to the RIAA, http://riaa.org/Contact.cfm, a trade organization for the music industry, and telling them what you think about this kind of business practice by a so-called "legitimate" download service.

Thanks IBL. If they don't respond to my first email within a week, I'll be including this in my second email to legal@emusic.com as the next steps I'll be taking if they do not reinstate my account for the remainder of my 3 month subscription.

I encourage everyone to write firm, but nice emails with similar information to legal@emusic.com so they understand that we, the consumers, won't stand for this type of deceptive practice.

I would much rather clear this up without resorting to formal complaint channels. I was very happy with their service, and telling all my friends about it. If they don't fix this situation, I'll still be telling all my friends about it, but it will be a very different story...

JimH · « **Reply #45 on:** October 24, 2002, 03:14:04 pm »

Quote

I encourage everyone to write firm, but nice emails with similar information to legal@emusic.com so they understand that we, the consumers, won't stand for this type of deceptive practice.

I would much rather clear this up without resorting to formal complaint channels. I was very happy with their service, and telling all my friends about it. If they don't fix this situation, I'll still be telling all my friends about it, but it will be a very different story...

Well said.

I urge everyone to show similar restraint in trying to work this out. EMusic is owned by Universal Music, one of the Big Five record labels. It is as liberal a service as any of the record labels has yet to offer. Let's see if we can work with them.

yosISme · « **Reply #46 on:** October 24, 2002, 03:27:17 pm »

JimH,
I would certainly appreciate your continued support on this. You seem to have their ear. I can't even get a reply to my email.

Was their offer to reinstate the beta MJ DM users an admition that it was related to that software, or were they just 'throwing you a bone'?

I certainly feel the rest of us deserve reinstatement, and not just the beta testers.

Thanks.

Lynn · « **Reply #47 on:** October 24, 2002, 05:21:35 pm »

Jim

I too was cancelled today and have been using the Beta 9. Please keep us posted on your progress on getting this resolved. None of us felt that using MJ would present a problem.

We appreciate your help.

Lynn

Jazzwolf · « **Reply #48 on:** October 25, 2002, 04:12:13 am »

I really don't like the EMusic Download manager but I went back to it last night. It is just not worth the hassle, their flawed system must be detecting something wrong when MJ is used to download their files.

JimH · « **Reply #49 on:** October 25, 2002, 06:44:57 am »

Quote

I really don't like the EMusic Download manager but I went back to it last night. It is just not worth the hassle, their flawed system must be detecting something wrong when MJ is used to download their files.

It isn't MJ's download manager. We're sure of that.

It looks like EMusic has a secret "magic number" that triggers the termination. I'm just guess here. I don't have any information at all from EMusic on this (though I have tried to get it). I suspect that the number is something like 5,000 tracks in any three month period.

If you do the math, 5000 tracks would cost EMusic about $350, but the user would only have paid about $30.

I may be wrong on the above so don't use it as a guideline. It could be as low as 1000/month.

It is obviously a problem for you if EMusic has a limit but doesn't publish it. It isn't right.

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Emusic (Read 29834 times)

NY40Male

NY40Male

PeterS

zevele10

zevele10

NY40Male

NY40Male

NY40Male

zevele10

zevele10

zevele10

NY40Male

zevele10

zevele10

PeterS

NY40Male

PeterS

NY40Male