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[Dan Da Man]

Steve,

I think somebody else had this problem above....

Everything's been working great.  But today I found a couple songs (the exclusive Switchfoot Live EP) that I had to get off of iTunes.  I downloaded 'em, played 'em in iTunes, imported and played them in MC, then synched my iPod.  All looked well.

Just for curiousity's sake, I decided I should try playing them on the iPod.  So I browsed for 'em and selected one track to play.  The iPod froze.

After resetting it, I tried the only other iTunes track I have on my iPod, the exclusive Coldplay track "One I Love".  Sure enough, it did not play... it just stayed on 0:00 in the playing now screen then acted as if my playlist was over.  Selecting the whole Switchfoot EP to play right now does the same thing... it spends a second or two on each track and then finishes "playing".

Anyone else experiencing this?

Please, Steve, investigate this.

Dan "da Man"

[TimB]

I only load data to my Gen2 iPod every 6-8 weeks.

Did it today, no problems!

Thanks Steve!

-=Tim=-

[packyb]

Two things:

First, is there a way that MC might be able to temporarily store which files were queued to be sent to the iPod, so that if there is a problem or a crash, that I wouldn't have to recreate the queue list from scratch? (My files are in .ape format, and therefore to fill my 30GB iPod takes days, and inevitably there is a problem. In the new MC (where files aren't sent in order), if there is a crash/problem and you had several thousand files in the queue, it is difficult to go back and try to duplicate the exact same queue list.)

Second, I was hoping to lobby for the return of "Various Artists" on the iPod - a feature that until recently was part of MC, and is currently a feature in iTunes.

packyb,

The elimination of Various Artists is most likely permanent. In order to make synching universally available to all players, we changed to a file matching scheme based on Name, Artist, Album, Genre and TrackNumber. Trying to match based on a shifting Artist field seems like a recipe for errors and so we went with Artist.

Steve

I understand that there is value to making MC agnostic for other players, but could this be solved by a plug-in for iPod users? My iPod is now flooded with artists bcs. I loaded a bunch of soundtrack/multi-artist albums and now have several hundred artists displayed on my iPod that each have one song.

Thanks.

[SteveG]

Penfold,

Thanks for confirming that you do not have a hardware issue. Please try transferring a few of the files that fail and see if you can replicate the problem. In regards to ratings, both iTunes and MC write to a file on iPod which stores this information. It should work going back and forth between them. Please test it and let me know if it does not work.

nel and Jason,

If you sync with 'Update tag info' checked, the first thing that happens is that lastplayed and rating information comes from iPod to MC for files where this information is changed. Then the sync deletes and resends any files where the rating or any other tag has been changed in MC to iPod. At the end of the process both iPod and MC are the same. In regards to Jason's comment of ratings being 'one way or the other', the data goes in both directions, but the order is iPod to MC then MC to iPod unless 'Update tags' is deselected and then it is one way from MC to iPod.

Dan,

What type of file is this (mp4)?  What duration does MC report for the file? Can you email a file which fails?   -> steve @ jriver.com


TimB,
Thanks for the report.


Packyb,

First,
maybe. For now, can you create a playlist to back it up?
Second,
The agnositicsm of iPod is in MC not just the plugin, so this change would be major.

[jt]

nel and Jason,

If you sync with 'Update tag info' checked, the first thing that happens is that lastplayed and rating information comes from iPod to MC for files where this information is changed. Then the sync deletes and resends any files where the rating or any other tag has been changed in MC to iPod. At the end of the process both iPod and MC are the same. In regards to Jason's comment of ratings being 'one way or the other', the data goes in both directions, but the order is iPod to MC then MC to iPod unless 'Update tags' is deselected and then it is one way from MC to iPod.

Yes this is how I thought it should work, but the problem is that is not syncing just the "changed" information for the rating. It's replacing MC's rating with the iPod's rating for ALL songs, whether is was changed or not.

Try this:
1) Sync MC10 and iPod with the "Sync Data to MC" option turned on to make sure the iPod and MC are the same.
2) Then change a rating on the iPod and re-sync. The MC10 rating now reflects the iPod rating, which is correct.
3) Now change the rating from MC10, and re-sync.

What happens is that MC10's rating is reset to the iPod's rating, even though I didn't change it on the iPod - I changed it on MC10. So it looks like it's not detecting the ipod changes at all, and is just assuming that the ipod's rating has changed for every song!

Am I missing something here maybe?

[SteveG]

jt,

MC's rating will change if iPod is different and you have 'Sync data to MC' checked. Sync data to MC implies that when there are differences in ratings between iPod and MC, default to iPod's rating. Without this checked, the logic is reversed and MC's rating replaces iPod's.

Steve

[jt]

jt,

MC's rating will change if iPod is different and you have 'Sync data to MC' checked. Sync data to MC implies that when there are differences in ratings between iPod and MC, default to iPod's rating. Without this checked, the logic is reversed and MC's rating replaces iPod's.

Steve

Damn that's a shame. It a very simplistic approach to synchronizing then.
I would though it would be quite easy to keep a record of what the ipod database was "last time", and do a comparison to see if you've actually "changed" anything on the ipod. That way it could only update MC if you've actually made a change. This would allow you to make changes from either the ipod OR MC, and have the changes merged when syncing.

Oh well, I'll have to either put up with this or go back to iTunes I guess.

[bvm]

MC's rating will change if iPod is different and you have 'Sync data to MC' checked. Sync data to MC implies that when there are differences in ratings between iPod and MC, default to iPod's rating. Without this checked, the logic is reversed and MC's rating replaces iPod's.

Seems like we've been through this several times before.  This policy means that, as a practical matter, I'd better only rate things on the iPod (assuming I also want play times synched), since I'll always want to have "Sync data to MC" checked, and not have to think about whether I've rated anything in one place or the other since I last synched.

I once asked if you could at least change the policy so that a zero (missing) rating never overwrites a non-zero rating.  Did this ever happen?  This would at least take care of the vast majority of my cases of concern, since I rarely change a rating once I've assigned one.

How does iTunes manage to do the right thing?  And can't you emulate it somehow?

[jt]

MC's rating will change if iPod is different and you have 'Sync data to MC' checked. Sync data to MC implies that when there are differences in ratings between iPod and MC, default to iPod's rating. Without this checked, the logic is reversed and MC's rating replaces iPod's.

Seems like we've been through this several times before.  This policy means that, as a practical matter, I'd better only rate things on the iPod (assuming I also want play times synched), since I'll always want to have "Sync data to MC" checked, and not have to think about whether I've rated anything in one place or the other since I last synched.

I once asked if you could at least change the policy so that a zero (missing) rating never overwrites a non-zero rating.  Did this ever happen?  This would at least take care of the vast majority of my cases of concern, since I rarely change a rating once I've assigned one.

How does iTunes manage to do the right thing?  And can't you emulate it somehow?

I think the only way to truley merge changes to rating from the ipod or MC is for the syncing process to keep a backup copy of each database (ie what state it was in after the last sync). It can then tell exactly what was changed since the last sync.

[Dan Da Man]

I tried reinitializing the iPod and it still does not work.

Are any others able to play iTunes AAC (.m4p) files on their iPod?

Dan "da Man"

[bvm]

I finally updated to a modern version of MC 10.0 (.88 vs .27) and synched to a freshly restored iPod.  I was surprised to see that every time I click on my iPod drive letter or any of its larger subparts, MC spends several seconds "Retrieving file info..."  In earlier versions, I could avoid this by turning off the "Show Files at Root" option, but there isn't one any more.  I remember reading something about it not being necessary, because handhelds have their own database now, but I don't know what that means -- it feels just the same as it used to when I allowed "Show Files at Root", viz., I have to wait several seconds every time I touch the iPod root when I was in a different view, even if it's only to issue the "Eject iPod" command.  Am I missing something?

(It takes about 7 seconds to show the 3863 files at root, but considerably longer to show big playlists.  In fact, the same 3863 files when shown as my "All iPod" playlist take 29 seconds to show up.)

[SteveG]

Everyone,

In tonight's build of MC, MC will compare the last sync time to the modification date of the file in MC and by doing so, get ratings to sync in both directions.


Dan,

Have you tried sending one AAC file to iPod with iTunes. You have to do this one time with one file in order for MC transferred files to play. After the one file you never need to do it again unless you format your iPod completely (not initialize).

bvm,

Generic handhelds have there own database, iPod uses its own proprietary database. Show files at root is not an option with the new synchronization design. Speeding this up is an option and will be done in the future.

Steve

[Dan Da Man]

SteveG,

OK, I will try that, and that's probably it.  I know the AAC files used to work on my iPod months ago, but I'm sure something changed.

Dan "da Man"

[Penfold]

After the problems worsened & would only let me copy 1000 songs across I managed to clear the problems, by clearing my MC library & reimporting all my music, (all teh ratings came back intact) this then allowed MC & (formatted) iPod to sync correctly & transfer all files.

However since then I cannot sync new music to iPod, after importing them to MC, it refuses to 'see' the new files.



After this screen when I hit 'Start' the screen flashes as if there's nothing to sync. Note the capacity after sync - iPod & Explorer confirm there's actually 12Gb.

Now no-one else seems to be getting these problems, so it must be something with my configuration but with MC, MC's library, iTunes & iPod all reinstalled or formatted. I'm at my wits end. I refuse to reinstall XP :-)

I'm away to reformat my iPod now that the library appears to be working OK; on the off chance it'll cure the above. It'll be at least Monday before I get any response I figure.

Hope somebody's enjoying their weekend  

UPDATE:
Gah well that didn't work, situation is now worse, iPod transfers 100 files after MC Library cleared, mp3s reimported back to MC library, ipod reformatted & reinitialised -  subsequent syncs fail to find anymore files. This started happening when 'delete unselected files from handheld' was re-checked.

Anyone care to help, before I put this PC thru an extensive phase of percussive maintenance?

SUPER DOUBLE-PLUS UPDATE:
I had an idea this might have had something to do with the smartlists, note I did not have a 'recently imported' smartlist so I grabbed the default, 'recently imported this week' list, & lo & behold all files sync'ed...oh happy day!

Still, should I have to do this to make it work? Steve?

Second, I was hoping to lobby for the return of "Various Artists" on the iPod - a feature that until recently was part of MC, and is currently a feature in iTunes.

As if I wasn't enough of a pain in the iPod plugin arse, I'd like to second the above also!

[SteveG]

Penfold,

I am not sure what was going on for you. It appears that the reimport of the files cleared things up which tells me that there was something fouled up in your library.  At this point are you still having issues?  (besides the multiple artists)

Steve

[Penfold]

well I thought it was the library as well (it cleared the earlier playlist problems anyway) until the problems started happening again after I cleared & recreated it;  MC will import & sync new mp3s now, but I can guarantee that if I check 'Delete unselected from HH' it'll strip most of the files from iPod & not let them back on after a resync.

Don't know if it's a link between that & the recently imported smartlist cos as soon as I had said smartlist included on my sync everything sync'd from a fresh iPod restore.

In fact when I have Recently Imported: This Week checked, MC displays the right amount of free disk space, when I remove the tick it reports my total iPod capacity as free, as if it were about to remove all my music, because it was imported this week & not removing just the smartlist.

NOTE: I've just added a couple of smartlists & after sync playlists disappeared on iPod

[Penfold]

well guess what, after that last report, I was choosing my going to work music & only 1000 songs are registered on iPod, the correct capacity is shown on iPod, but right enough there are plenty tracks missing.

Viewing the 'I' drive (iPod) in MC shows correct number of tracks (>4000) loaded.

So, I'm completely flummoxed now, any suggestions? While I'm away to reinitialise & reload iPod again.

[SteveG]

Penfold,

I cannot explain this other than as a poetential hardware issue. I had a message from someone this morning who pointed out they had very similar issues and it turned out it was a particular firewire card. Can you use iTunes again for a little while to make sure that it is not related to your hardware? If it were the program, I would expect to see others with similar issues.

Steve

[Penfold]

Well, my setup worked perfectly twice with iTunes, so I'm a lil reluctant to try again, see how this sync goes 1st...

However my setup is an Asus A7V8X mobo (Via KT400 chipset with latest stable Hyperion drivers), with onboard USB2 linked to a front J-Panel which I plug my Apple USB2 cable into...

This has been working for 6months now with no problems, but knowing the foibles of PC's I'll check my cabling, drivers etc etc

I'll also remove the iPod plugin, update to 10.0.91, & try again, see if the plugin has become corrupted, if this sync does not work... *fingers crossed*

I agree with you re the hardware issue, the indicators are there, yet iTunes ability to operate iPod correctly would suggest otherwise.

[SteveG]

Penfold,

Thanks for being reasonable about this. I will help as much as possible.

Steve

[Penfold]

No thank YOU! The help is appreciated...sometimes I feel like I'm hijacking this thread for my own nefarious purposes  

So the reinitialise/sync worked (no restore) all songs, all playlists OK. (Still on 10.0.90)

Although... I had ripped/imported the sublime "Zero 7" album 'When It Falls' before doing the above, before I noticed that one track had an incorrect artist name of "Zero7" so I changed it back to "Zero 7" & resync'ed - 1 extra file on iPod, as 'delete unselected' was unchecked. Cool!

Tried a sync with 'delete unselected' checked, deleted the incorrect "Zero 7" & everything worked fine! Joy! Note this is the 1st time that this has worked correctly since I started having problems.

Next I tried adding a basic Top100 smartlist, that was added fine when iPod sync'ed.

Wake up Steve! I'm getting to the point!

However, should I try & take the tick out of 'Imported this week' smartlist the sync dialog still reverts back to 35Gb free after sync.

Now, based on previous, I'd say that when I take the tick out of 'Imported this week' & resync, with 'delete unselected from HH' checked, then ALL bar 100 files will be lost, note the few remaining files on iPod appear in the other smartlists that are still on iPod.

As everything seems to be working correctly.  I'm thinking of giving up for the night.

What did I do? Nothing, bar initialise & resync the same way I had been doing all weekend. That's computers for ya.
-----------------

One thing I did notice, I also imported a track by "missfrenchie" & I noticed that I have 3 different spellings of her name on 3 tracks, in both MC & therefore iPod.

So on MC & iPod there are 3 entries under 'Artist' ie:
missfrenchie
Missfrenchie &
Miss Frenchie

If I go to 'Browse' & select 'Artists' & view 'All' on iPod these 3 separate artists all list the same 3 tracks,
they also play the same 3 tracks, like they all link to the same files.

I would have expected iPod to report 3 Artists, with one track each...not all (different) Artists linking to the same 3 tracks.
Same happened with the rogue "Zero 7" track mentioned above. MC also lists all 3 when searching on just 'missfrenchie' but I figure that cos MC's search is fairly smart.

Don't know if this is anyway significant or expected behaviour, but I thought I'd add it; I'll leave 'em be for the moment, just in case...

[sirshambling]

Steve,

In the last 2 builds synching my Ipod has worked fine but the time shown during the synch process has always been negative ie starting at -0.01 secs and increasing to -0.32 secs this morning, rather than counting down from 32 secs to zero.

Don't know if anybody else has had this issue.

John.

[ph_bradley]

any chance of seeing that sync comparison (ipod -> pc, pc -> ipod) feature you sorta mentioned a while ago?

[rhaehnel]

I see this also ... among other abnormalities-  including disappearing playlists and inablility to sync ipod data to MC.

<<
In the last 2 builds synching my Ipod has worked fine but the time shown during the synch process has always been negative ie starting at -0.01 secs and increasing to -0.32 secs this morning, rather than counting down from 32 secs to zero.
>>

Is there any chance you can make the 'Number Played' sync to the ipod( the last played date is already there)?  I would guess it would be possible if you sync'd the number played(as stored on the pod) and the MC 'number played' so it would be a simple subraction to determine the number to increment  the 'number played' in MC.  This would allow us to more effectively use iTunes smartlists until the MC version is complete and available.

[MikeW]

I have a number of .jpg files in my Media Library, and if I synch my iPod with all options clicked on the "Synchronize Handheld player" dialog box (Synchronize All Files, Delete Unselected Files From HH, and Sync data to MC) I get the "You are attempting to transfer multiple files with duplicated information" message followed by a long list of .jpg files.

If I deselect "Synchronize all files" but include playlists such as "Recently Played", I will get a message "Failed to add to playlist 'Recently Played'" followed by any recent .jpg files that I've viewed.

Is there a way to tell MC to ignore .jpg (or all files other than audio files, for that matter) when syncing with the iPod?

[Jas]

Steve:
I can't get my 2nd gen 20 gig iPod to synchonize with MC, nor can I send files to the iPod.  I have used MC 9 with no problem.  I paid for the upgrade for 10.0.30 and have used it with no problem. I can also send files and synchronize with iTunes with no problem.  I have aproximately 2,400 mp3s on my iPod.

I started updating MC with the 10.0.80s and none of them including .92 work for me so I keep going back to .30.  That's fine as a temporary fix, but once MC 10 is finished and released, unless I get this problem solved, I won't be able to use it.

I have reformatted, updated, intialized multiple times in order to solve the problem. I checked, rechecked and re-rechecked my database for corrupt files, duplicates, incorrect symbols, anything I can think of that might be causing the problem and can't find anything.  I have maybe 10 AAC files that I converted to MP3 - they play and transfer fine on iTunes and MC 10.0.30.

When I try to synchronize, if I have enabled delete HH files not on PC, it deletes all files on my iPod - whether I have all playlists to be synchronized or 1, no difference, everything is deleted.   If I don't have that selected, I immediately get the dreaded h_h error box with the X.

I have tried to send files to iPod by dragging and dropping and by using the "send to" command to Drive E: iPod and it doesn't work.  Sometimes I can send 1 file, but not a second.  Or 1 small playlist of say 10 tunes, but not a second of equal number.  What happens is  MC shows the "progress" box for transferring tunes, but there's no progress shown, and then I get the MC error message saying MC has to shut down.  Or, if I don't get the error message, the progress box remains, but with no progress, and I can't cancel it. It just stays there until I close down MC.  

Your help appreciated, Jas  

[bvm]

Big sync problems with 10.0.93 (Plugin version 9.0.108).  I just synched with this version for the first time, perhaps for the first time since I synched to a new iPod with 10.0.88.  The estimated "time remaining" was a couple minutes -- about right for the tracks I'd added to the library since.  However, MC appeared to synch everything, all 3945 files, taking well over an hour.  Estimated time continued to countdown to somewhere around negative one hour.  When it finished, my iPod had no playlists, no albums, no artists, no genres, no composers.

When I browsed the iPod in MC, it showed me the playlists, and if I clicked on them, their contents.  However, it showed nothing in any other of its subviews, including root.

Windows Explorer said 22GB used, 15GB free.  That's about 5GB too much (my music files take up 17GB).

At this point, if I try to synchronise, the sync dialog says "-2.4GB available after sync", and refuses to do anything.

Remembering in older versions that "Rebuild database from iPod" was the standard remedy after losing playlists, I tried that.  No effect.

So I tried "Initialize ipod".  That took a long time (as the warning suggested), after which my iPod was empty, save for some files in \iTunes (e.g., iTunesControl is 20MB).

Then I tried another sync.  It still reported it would take about 2 minutes.  Ended up at negative 1:06:02 remaining.  From inside MC it still looked bad: no files at root, with playlist contents being the only thing visible.  If I open the synchronize dialog, it says 2.6GB available after sync (which is consistent with it thinking there are no music files on the iPod, but only 20GB free, which is now what Windows Explorer says -- I wonder what the other 5GB were).

However, the iPod itself looks okay: I have playlists, genres, etc on the iPod, and I can play music fine.

But MC is not in a good state.  After fixing some tags, listening to and rating some songs on the iPod, I tried another sync.  It again appeared to be transferring every single file, so I canceled after a few.  No ratings or play info had been transmitted (does this not happen at the beginning any more?).

Getting more extreme, I used the iPod Updater to erase (restore) iPod.  Then did sync.  MC still guessed it would take about 2 minutes, but it of course took over an hour, ending with a very negative reading.  And MC still shows me no files at the root of the iPod device (or anywhere other than inside playlists), and still thinks I'll have 2.6GB free after sync.

So what's up with this version?  I certainly don't relish it taking over an hour to sync up the iPod, and probably losing all ratings in the process.  Do I need to go back to a pre-new-sync-strategy version, like Jas?  After paying for MC 10, I'd really like to partake in its other goodness.

[ventilatedslacks]

I have been using MC for over a year and moved from 9.1 to the 10.0 beta a few weeks ago. Up until the last two 10.0 releases (am now on 10.0.93), I have never had any iPod related problems with MC. But things have gone downhill quickly. Earlier this week I manually transferred 5 albums to my iPod. When I looked on the iPod, each album appeared to be missing some songs. But when I look at the iPod in MC, the files are there and I am able to play them through MC or copy them to my PC.

So, I initialized the iPod and loaded one album - still had songs missing on the iPod but appearing in MC. Then I rebuilt the database from iPod and the iPod showed even fewer songs than before. I initialized again. Then I tranferred a single album - the transfer window showed everything as normal, the songs appear within MC, but only one song out of 16 appears in the iPod! Initialized again, transferred another album and nothing showed up on the iPod even though the songs appeared when browsing the iPod in MC. At this point I gave up

Based on my experience and the experience of others (from the posts here), the iPod functionality is clearly broken in the last couple of releases. Since I don't want to switch to iTunes after all the time I've invested in MC, I think I need to revert back to 9.1 (I've already paid for the 10 license). Do I need to uninstall 10 first? Do I need to do anything special to keep my settings?

Thanks.

[SouthsideIrish]

This happened to me as well, but with .92. The only way I could fix it was to initialize the iPod and transfer the songs in small batches. So, first I sent the audible files, then half the playlists minus the allmusic playlist, then the other half, then finally the allmusic.

Seems like something migh have happened in .91 and .92 that is causing some of us to initialize. BTW, so far I have synced twice today with .93 and had no problems whatsoever.

Bill McNair

[ventilatedslacks]

Unfortunately, my problems actually got worse with .93 and occurred even though I was moving files in very small batches. I hope Steve, et. al. will be able to solve this soon.

[SteveG]

Everyone,

Sorry to have gotten behind here. I will address these issues tomorrow.

Steve

[ventilatedslacks]

Well, when I got home last night I decided to try using the iPod software's restore function and then initializing in MC. That seems to have done the trick - although my PC did freeze up when the syncing was over. But I was successfully able to load up my ipod with tunes again, so life is good BTW - I did update to .94 before syncing  - not sure whether this or the iPod restore was more responsible for the change in behavior.

A few other iPod related issues/questions:

1. I am still seeing the negative time remaining indicator that others have mentioned.

2. The warning for duplicate files is just informative, correct? If I say "Yes" and proceed with the duplicates it just means that I'll have duplicates on my iPod?

3. It occurred to me after syncing everything back up that the "All Files" checkbox should also transfer playlists/smartlists. Perhaps that is the way it is supposed to work, but when I did it, I got all my songs, but no playlists. But when I selected playlists individually, it worked fine.

[gbdesai]

With build .90 onwards, I am having a weird sound cutoff problem.  I reinitialized and synced my iPod with a convert from APE to VBR MP3.  At least 70% of my files on my iPod play until about the last 3 to 30 seconds of the file and then the music is just cut off (no audio), even though the playtime continues until the end of song.  Any ideas?  My music plays fine as APE in MC10 on my PC.   This was not a problem in earlier versions of MC10.

[SteveG]

Everyone,

Please get MC 9.0.95. This should resolve any negative numbers during synching.

gbdesai,

Please let me know if this is still present in 9.0.95. If it is, can you email me one of the files which is cut off? (steve @ jriver.com)

ventilatedslacks,

The 'duplicates' message is informative. If you say OK, certain files will not be transferred. Only 1 file with the same Name, Artist, Album, Genre and Tracknumber can exist on a player at a time.

'All files' is for sending just files without playlists.  Ipod people tend to be 'Playlist' people, but other players and the people that use them prefer not to deal with playlists at all. That is who that option is for.


ph_bradley,

Sometime, but not right now.

rhaehnel,

Number played should already increment MC from iPod if 'Sync data with MC' is selected.

MikeW,

Create playlists and smartlists that do not include these files.  I can make this better next week.

Penfold, rhaenel, Jas, bvm,

Please try with 9.0.95 and we will pick up there next week.

Steve

[ventilatedslacks]

Thanks for the clarification on the "All Files" option and duplicate file message. I'll install .95 when I get home.

[SteveG]

Everyone,

Lets start a new thread for this.

I will lock this one now.

Steve