Topic: Genre madness (Read 6321 times)

paulr · « **on:** April 23, 2004, 02:06:24 pm »

I have to say I am continually astounded by the genres people assign to CDs. It doesn't matter which databse you use, CDDB, FreeDB, YADB... They all have some very weird stuff in them.

Examples:

Pink Floyd, Meddle - YADB has this as Progressive Rock (huh?).
Steely Dan, various - Seen some of these discs listed as Jazz... You *might* be able to make the argument that Fusion would be appropriate, but Rock is really the correct genre. It's definitely not Jazz.

I've also seen confusion between New Age, Celtic and Folk. I guess this is understandable to some extent: some Celtic music might be considered Folk to people in certain parts of the world...

One genre that drives me nuts is Classic Rock. No one is going to convince me that there is even such a genre. Classic Rock means popular rock that is older (age varies)... The proper genre is still Rock, or Rock & Roll. When you were listening to Bad Company in the '70s, did you call it Classic Rock? No, of course not. I don't think the genre changes as the music ages.

I guess there's really no way to fix this issue other than submitting info to YADB when something is wrong, which I always do. So, I guess this post is mostly just a rant!

KingSparta · « **Reply #1 on:** April 23, 2004, 02:11:36 pm »

Quote

I guess there's really no way to fix this issue other than submitting info to YADB when something is wrong, which I always do.

You think we trust you with our genres?

Quote

So, I guess this post is mostly just a rant!

yep

kaiynne · « **Reply #2 on:** April 23, 2004, 02:15:20 pm »

I have set up two genre fields, one is 'GENRE' then a second is called 'SUB-GENRE' this allows me to have broad classification but also to be more specific when needed.

IE:
Rock -> indie rock, classic rock, emo...

paulr · « **Reply #3 on:** April 23, 2004, 02:18:09 pm »

Yea, that's a good idea. I've been thinking about doing that as well, as it would give a lot more control when making smartlists.

paulr · « **Reply #4 on:** April 23, 2004, 02:23:10 pm »

KingSparta,

If I have to put up with your genres, you have to put up with mine!

DocLotus · « **Reply #5 on:** April 23, 2004, 02:43:57 pm »

I try to keep my genere simple... only one of each broad catagory, 15 in all...

* Calypso
* Christmas
* Circus
* Classsical
* Country-Folk
* Exotic
* Jazz-Rag-Blues
* Movie
* Musical
* New Age
* Pop
* Rock
* Romantic
* Waltz
* Weird - Sci-Fi

This has worked for me for many years now.

KingSparta · « **Reply #6 on:** April 23, 2004, 03:44:03 pm »

I just Use "Pop" for everything

Jazz = Pop
Hard Rock = Pop

Etc....

edbro · « **Reply #7 on:** April 23, 2004, 03:48:49 pm »

DocLotus wrote:

Quote

I try to keep my genere simple... only one of each broad catagory, 15 in all...

* Calypso
* Christmas
* Circus

I gotta ask; What is circus?

paulr · « **Reply #8 on:** April 23, 2004, 03:54:18 pm »

It's all KingSparta's fault!

Rob L · « **Reply #9 on:** April 23, 2004, 03:54:34 pm »

Surely Pink Floyd *is* progressive rock???

And Rock is definitely not the same thing as Rock & Roll...

Matt · « **Reply #10 on:** April 23, 2004, 03:59:02 pm »

Reminds me of "Let's Call the Whole Thing Off" by Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong...

Michael Horton · « **Reply #11 on:** April 23, 2004, 04:05:52 pm »

I use two genres: "music" and "not music." I submit a several entries to YADB monthly. I bet this drives paulr nuts.

paulr · « **Reply #12 on:** April 23, 2004, 04:06:09 pm »

Well, I've seen The Beatles described as Prog Rock. I don't use the genre as I consider it redundant anyway. I guess that particular example wasn't as obvious as some I could have posted.

Rock and Rock & Roll get mixed up all the time, and I don't really expect those to be used correctly 100% of the time.

But some of the classifications I've seen are just 'crazy'.

I guess I am more like DocLotus in that I use a simplified genre listing... Except I have no "Circus" genre, whatever that is.

It's like all the Metal genres: Metal, Heavy Metal, Speed Metal, Death Metal. It's all Metal to me, and I may include subgenres if I want to distinguish one from another.

DocLotus · « **Reply #13 on:** April 23, 2004, 04:11:33 pm »

Circus...

I have a few midi music files that are played mostly in a Circus, you know, the one with clowns, animals, & three rings.

Yes, I know it could have been put under pop, but I just wanted to be able to find them when I am in a funny festive mood.

Matt · « **Reply #14 on:** April 23, 2004, 04:15:10 pm »

Quote from: paulr on April 23, 2004, 04:06:09 pm

It's like all the Metal genres: Metal, Heavy Metal, Speed Metal, Death Metal. It's all Metal to me, and I may include subgenres if I want to distinguish one from another.

Yeah, but when does Metal become Hard Rock or just plain Rock?

I used to get grumpy at King's "everything is pop" idea, but maybe he's on to something...

paulr · « **Reply #15 on:** April 23, 2004, 04:18:40 pm »

True. There's a fine line in there somewhere.

Another one I don't use is Grunge. It's either Rock or Hard Rock to me.

I am going to make a new genre called "Awesome". It will contain all the music I like. Then maybe I'll make one called "Good", then "Terrible"...

Pink Floyd isn't Rock, it's Awesome!

JustinChase · « **Reply #16 on:** April 23, 2004, 04:20:06 pm »

I bet parties at Docs' house are REALLY wild!

Matt · « **Reply #17 on:** April 23, 2004, 04:27:00 pm »

Quote from: edbro on April 23, 2004, 03:48:49 pm

I gotta ask; What is circus?

It's the noise you hear in the back of your head when people are telling you their really bad ideas.

Here's an example:

Why aren't there movie theater barber shops where you get a haircut while watching a movie?

Why aren't there pizza places that only deliver with high performance sports cars? Every 20th pizza, you'd get a ride. Plus, it'd be easy to get the pizza there in 30 minutes.

DocLotus · « **Reply #18 on:** April 23, 2004, 04:34:44 pm »

I used to rate all my vinyl records with two numbers...

A big red sticker on each record jacket had a horizontal line through the middle.

* On top half of the red circle... "1 - 10" equaled quality of music.
* On bottom half of the red circle... "1 - 10" equaled quality of the pressing (not as applicable on today's higher quality CD's.

This information could be added to the genre to provide a more comprehensive listing of music. If I was in the mood for some really great Jazz music, I would look for genre Jazz & look for a high number for quality.

When it came time to sell all my vinyl records several years ago, I got a pretty good price as all records had a red label plus were each in a high quality telvek sleeve.

Magicland · « **Reply #19 on:** April 23, 2004, 04:38:49 pm »

I use a "classic rock" genre, but that's just for my own personal classification. Anything I consider rock, but I also consider dated or played out (things I like or liked that I don't want to hear on a regular basis) I put in there. I'd probably be more accurate labeling it as "oldies", but I refuse to consider anything I like to listen to as "old". That's for music people older than me listen to

I try and keep my genres broad enough that there's a decent enough sampling in most of them for a good random play while delivering the type of music I'm after. I wish there was a tag called "decade" though...

GRAYDOG · « **Reply #20 on:** April 23, 2004, 04:43:13 pm »

Doc what part of the world are You from? Listen to GlassHarp "can you see me" on MC 10

bebop · « **Reply #21 on:** April 23, 2004, 04:55:52 pm »

King 's idea definately has merit...Genre is so subjective.

I came to the conclusion that the fewer the genre's the better after trying to decide just what genre certain tracks fit in: for example: Delerium - is it "Trance" or "Pop".Then there's the question " when is folk not folk, but pop - Bruce Cockburn, for instance, or Cassandra Wilson. How's about Linda Ronstadt??!! Dezi Arnez, Eydie Gorme - are they ethnic,lounge, pop, or oldies , AARRRGGGHHH!!!! I was getting headaches...so now I have a short genre list:

Classical
Country
Jazz/RnB/Soul
pop/rock/oldies
Hawaiian (it is such a fusion, it just didn't fit any where else)

paulr · « **Reply #22 on:** April 23, 2004, 05:00:00 pm »

Well, I don't think you can put music into a specific category just by going on who wrote it.

Linda Ronstadt is a good example. Eric Clapton is another (some of his stuff is definitely Rock, but some is Blues).

Early Chicago is tricky too... Some of it I would consider Jazz, some Blues but mostly Rock (I just stick all of their stuff in the Rock category as I don't like using multiple genres inside a single album).

cascius · « **Reply #23 on:** April 23, 2004, 05:23:08 pm »

Well, try to bring in foreign music into those issues... I'm French and live in the US. Therefore I also need to have such cathegories as:
- French - Rock
- French - Celtic
- French - Pop
- French - Rap
- Italian - Classics
- Italian - Modern
...

When looking up the genres for those track i get a bunch of: world, folk, foreign, pop... which really doesn't help much as a good third of my library is foreign.

It took me a very long time to get all my stuff classified the way i want them to be. Now I probably have 60 or so genres, with 90% of the tracks rated.

Of course some of those genres don't have that much music in them. i.e. House - Drum & Bass. So what I do is use smartlists to combine Dance +Techno+Trance+... when I want to listen to something with high beats. I'd rather have it that way than having all of those classified in just "dance" or something like that.

Not having a reliable source of genres can sometime be very frustrating. I wished there was a plugin that could just find accurate genre information, but then, this would still be subjective as it wouldn't help with my Foreign tracks issue.

Also, some other track artists are very hard to classify. i.e. Manu Chao: Latin Rock, Reggae, Spanish, French Rock??? It's a bit of everything and it's own genre in a sense.

So it's hard for me to get what I would call a perfect classification; but i feel I'm pretty darn close to my taste.

-Cascius

DougHamm · « **Reply #24 on:** April 23, 2004, 06:07:03 pm »

Quote from: paulr on April 23, 2004, 02:06:24 pm

I have to say I am continually astounded by the genres people assign to CDs. It doesn't matter which databse you use, CDDB, FreeDB, YADB... They all have some very weird stuff in them.

Examples:

Pink Floyd, Meddle - YADB has this as Progressive Rock (huh?).

Being a fan of prog-rock, I'd definitely classify Floyd as space rock; however someone could argue that it's just a style of prog-rock, like symphonic rock (Yes) or prog-metal (Dream Theater). And to confuse matters more, there are lots of bands that borrow certain influences from all of them. I keep my genres pretty basic (rock, pop, heavy metal, classical, etc.) and use styles to further categorize them (thanks aTagger!).

-Doug

DocLotus · « **Reply #25 on:** April 23, 2004, 07:45:59 pm »

Hi Graydog;

Was born in Youngstown, Ohio USA. At age 6, WWII took us to Dalhart Texas (my dad was in the army).

Have lived in Albuquerque New Mexico (4 years), Fort Hood Texas / Killeen Texas (4 years), Denver Colorado (8 years).

In 1963 my job at GE took me to hot, humid Houston, Texas where I still live.

Houston is a neat city, very modern, clean & pretty well managed. It is the fourth largest city (in population) in the US & has the largest land mass of any city in the US.

It is generally not known, but Houston has the largest Asian community outside of Hong Kong. The Asian community is 6 miles long & 2 miles wide; I have lived right in the middle of it since 1978. The Asians are really nice people; they take care of their own. I have a Lot of great restaurants to choose from within walking distance. I eat at one little Chinese restaurant (China Gourmet) 2 or 3 times a week. I know the owner, a young Chinese girl who is very nice. She hires only Asian collage kids for the restaurant; they are also very nice. Funny thing is, some of the cooks are Mexican but they too are very nice & dedicated to their work... I respect that.

The one problem with Houston is that it is ALWAYS under construction. There is a lot of money here & the new construction goes on year round. In the last year the Asians have (and are) building 6 new shopping centers within an 8 block area, & many older buildings are being renovated. There are now a total of 10 banks within one block of Bellaire Blvd & Corporate Drive (the center of the Asian community).

I must say the arrival of the Asians have been a very positive thing in my part of the city. There seems to be little crime or drug use among the Asians. It also seems that we got the upper class, better educated Asians in the area.

JimH · « **Reply #26 on:** April 23, 2004, 08:33:25 pm »

Doc,
I'm 135. You must be half as old.

I'm thinking about what you've said. Nicely put. The Asian cultures you're living in are several thousand years older than the European cultures we came from

Thanks for the lovely description. Give our best to the young woman who runs the restaurant you frequent.

TimB · « **Reply #27 on:** April 23, 2004, 08:56:15 pm »

I'm not sure I'd go as far as KingSparta but I keep it down to Rock, Jazz, Folk, Classical, Instrumental and Spoken. If it doesn't fit any of the last 5 its the first one.

-=Tim=-

rocketsauce · « **Reply #28 on:** April 23, 2004, 09:18:08 pm »

I have old Pink Floyd classified as Genre: Rock and (in a semicolon delimited field) Sub-genre: Classic;Progressive.

Rob

KingSparta · « **Reply #29 on:** April 24, 2004, 10:58:59 am »

Here is Another One I Use

"Sad Songs"

Listening to: 'Grown Men Don't Cry' from 'The Best Of Tim Mcgraw' by 'Tim Magraw' on Media Center 10

GRAYDOG · « **Reply #30 on:** April 24, 2004, 11:08:12 am »

Thanks Doc You paint a nice picture. What about the heat I hear it gets pretty hot there .

paulr · « **Reply #31 on:** April 24, 2004, 12:46:50 pm »

Here's one I saw last night while ripping more of my library...

Fleetwood Mac - Rumours: Blues

Shady Bimmer · « **Reply #32 on:** April 24, 2004, 01:15:05 pm »

Quote from: paulr on April 23, 2004, 02:06:24 pm

I have to say I am continually astounded by the genres people assign to CDs. It doesn't matter which databse you use, CDDB, FreeDB, YADB... They all have some very weird stuff in them.

I don't think you'll find much disagreement with this.

The problem is 'Genre' can be very subjective. Exactly where are the lines between 'Pop', 'Rock & Roll', 'Rock', 'Contemporary', etc. ?

I typically check reference sites such as AMG All Music Guide for ideas and hints but even much of the information there originated with the general public.

Quote

I guess there's really no way to fix this issue other than submitting info to YADB when something is wrong, which I always do. So, I guess this post is mostly just a rant!

Except who is to say your opinion of the correct genre is "correct"?

If I find glaring errors in attributes like name/artist/album I'll correct them and submit to YADB, but for attributes such as genre I don't really care what is in YADB. My library has the values that I want in a way that is meaningful to me but others may have differing opinions. The majority of information in YADB is very accurate and I can reliably use it to populate my libary 98%. Its no big deal to make the few additional local changes that may be needed. . .

paulr · « **Reply #33 on:** April 24, 2004, 02:02:49 pm »

Quote

Except who is to say your opinion of the correct genre is "correct"?

My point is to submit when things are glaringly incorrect, like the example I gave above: Fleetwood Mac assigned to the Blues category.

I don't submit info to YADB when someone used Hard Rock instead of Metal, that's pointless. But, when someone submits Steely Dan as Jazz or Fleetwood Mac as Blues, I submit what I think they should be in the hopes that a/the person administrating YADB will see a discrepancy and investigate/correct it.

I also submit info when there are other glaring problems - such as songs 4 and 5 being transposed in the listing, or a mispelling.

In *my* library, I use a very small and generic set of genre's and I am not talking about imposing those on everyone else...

DocLotus · « **Reply #34 on:** April 24, 2004, 02:04:03 pm »

Hi Graydog;

It's not so much the heat as it is the humidity.

The summers are really no hotter then they were in Denver, in the mid to high 90's, seldom 100 or higher (but it does happen some years). Dallas actually gets hotter then we do but they have less humidity as they are so far from the Gulf of Mexico.

The real problem is that we are so close to the Gulf of Mexico (about 30 miles north) that the summer winds almost always blow from the South bringing in a lot of humidity off of the Gulf.

A comparison between Denver & Houston summer humidity is...

Denver; Day... 10-25%, Night... 10-25%.

Houston; Day... 50-80%, Night... 80-100%.

Yes; it is very humid but virtually everything is air conditioned. Even Six Flags amusement park has outdoor areas that are air conditioned. This is a great city for air conditioner contractors & service companies.

We do however make up for it in the wintertime. It has snowed only three times since 1963 & only one of them amounted to anything (2 inches & lasted for a couple of days). The winters are very nice, cool (around 40-60 degrees F), low humidity (for us) as the wind often blows from the north bringing in dryer air. Our winters are a lot like Denver's spring & fall (cool & dry).

I love the winters here but still miss the snowfall, especially around Thanksgiving, Christmas time, and New Years.

lee269 · « **Reply #35 on:** April 24, 2004, 02:51:49 pm »

Quote from: paulr on April 24, 2004, 12:46:50 pm

Here's one I saw last night while ripping more of my library...

Fleetwood Mac - Rumours: Blues

FWIW my vague recollection is that there is a some sort of standard numeric coding scheme for the mp3 genre tag, with 0=Blues=default, so I guess you may pick up a few Blues from YADB etc where the contributors havent included a Genre. I might have this wrong because a) I aint no expert, and b) I dont bother with updating genre for various reasons. The vast majority of my library is coded as Blues, though.

GRAYDOG · « **Reply #36 on:** April 24, 2004, 03:22:56 pm »

Doc, up here in the Cleveland area the sumers are hot and humid ,the winters are cold and windy and fall and spring are wet and cool . what They say is if You don't like the weather wait a few secounds and it will change

what this has to do with Genre madness I don't know ? I guess it's just madness

urlwolf · « **Reply #37 on:** April 24, 2004, 09:49:36 pm »

I think it'll be cool to collect the 'genre' tag from everybody, and store it in some kind of database (YADB?) per song. Then, the most frequent tag could be used by default.

I think some services that 'organize' your music, and make suggestions, like moodlogic (not that I like this one) or synapse do that.

What do you think?

gpvillamil · « **Reply #38 on:** April 25, 2004, 07:34:31 pm »

Quote from: cascius on April 23, 2004, 05:23:08 pm

...

Of course some of those genres don't have that much music in them. i.e. House - Drum & Bass. So what I do is use smartlists to combine Dance +Techno+Trance+... when I want to listen to something with high beats. I'd rather have it that way than having all of those classified in just "dance" or something like that.

-Cascius

I do the same - basically use quite specific genres and then use smartlists to aggregate them. I'm also starting to experiment with using custom fields that match the AllMusicGuide + region/country of origin.

If I'm not mistaken, there is a program out there (called "The Godfather"?) that grabs all the detailed info on genre/subgenre/mood/style etc from AMG and puts into tags. Maybe MC could do this as well.

I would love to see something like www.musicplasma.com integrated with MC as well. I currently use that site when I'm building my meta smartlists.

However, still doesn't address the problem with mistagged info in CDDB. For example - Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds as "Easy Listening".

marketability · « **Reply #39 on:** April 26, 2004, 01:52:29 am »

tomAYto
tomARto

Buddy213 · « **Reply #40 on:** May 08, 2004, 04:20:01 am »

mp3 Editors: http://www.softlandmark.com/MP3Tools1.htm

The GodFather: http://users.otenet.gr/~jtcliper/tgf/

Fixer · « **Reply #41 on:** May 08, 2004, 10:29:48 am »

How about just these two

GOOD
BAD

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Genre madness (Read 6321 times)

Fixer