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[sapnho]

Don't get me wrong - I am asking this question because I have absolutely no doubt (like probably everyone on this forum) that MC is  by a great margin the best Media Center around. I also like the community "touch and feel" of it.

However, I wonder why companies like MusicMatch get bought for $160m and Microsoft can get away with a ridiculous Media Player when alternatives like MC exist. I guess I am also launching this discussion because it has always been a hobby of mine to figure out why certain products are more successful in the market than others (you could probably call that the Apple-IBM dilemma ).

Now, Jim may be smiling in the background and say a) "define success" and b) "wait for the big bang"  ... But it has been a while that MC has been around and it has been a great product since V9 at least. So why isn't there a stronger selling approach? The website is not exactly encouraging to buy and as far as I know it still is the only place to buy.

So is it, because Jim&Co deliberately want to keep things quiet? Because they enjoy what they are doing, are not too money driven and like to be in full control of a small company rather than doing politics in large corporations? Is it because MC is too powerful and therefore not simple enough to appeal to a broad (and more simple) audience?

I am not complaining. I am applauding JR for their results. But I am curious to know why they are where they are.

[Madcow]

Well, part of the issue is that you have to pay for it.  There are a lot of fairly proficient media players out there, such as iTunes and WinAmp, that are free.  The majority of people don't feel the need to pay money for something like Media Center that offers extra functionality because what they can get for free does most of what they need.

Even MusicMatch has a cut-down version.  All J River offer is a thirty day trial.  Oh, and their anti-piracy measures are excellent, apparently, so the number of "cracked" copies floating around the net is minimal.  That sounds like a good thing from J River's perspective but it does reduce public perception of the product....

I also have increasing issues with the "pay for every upgrade" policy.  I've paid my $10 to upgrade to MC11 mostly because I wasn't sure how long the price would remain for.  To me, it seems like a very minor upgrade so far... a bit faster, a couple of new bits that I may or may not use.  I'm a little annoyed that we are expected to pay (again, only a few months after the MC9->MC10 switch).  I love MC, but it does feel like I'm renting it rather than owning it sometimes.

[KingSparta]

you could probably call that the Apple-IBM dilemma

Not sure where your going with that since both of them are falures in the personal Computer market.

[bbrip]

I believe what Saphno want sto say is that both Apple and IBM were failures not because their products were no good but their marketing was not up to scratch and others (MS / Dell) crushed them by their market clouds.

B

[KingSparta]

I also have increasing issues with the "pay for every upgrade" policy.

I don't really think that is correct

>> A version 8 license can be upgraded to version 10 for $14.98

Then: mj8 $24.98, mj9-free, mj10 24.98 = $49.96
Now: mj8 $24.98, directly to mc10 with upgrade $14.98 = $39.96

or

then: mj8 $24.98, mj9-free, mj10 24.98 = $49.96
Now: mj8 $24.98, upgrade mj9-$10, upgrade MJ10 $10 = $44.98

[KingSparta]

Even MusicMatch has a cut-down version.  All J River offer is a thirty day trial.

ah, MJ8 basic is free

(it is however dated)

[GHammer]

ah, MJ8 basic is free

(it is however dated)

Especially with the Swiss Army Knife nature of MC, I think that a 30 day full trial followed by being an audio player with a nice library for free would be a good thing.

After people played with the ripping/burning, transferring to portables/devices, etc. then kept using MC for playback they'd miss being able to rip, etc.

In my opinion keeping the app in front of people leads to sales.

Being there for 30 days, especially if there is a problem in some feature won't lead to as many sales.

But then the "Big deals" seem to have priority anyway.

[sapnho]

My point on Apple/IBM (I should have said Microsoft) was really that not the best system always wins. Although I use Windows today, everybody who has ever used a Mac will know that it's far more fun to work with an Apple than a Win PC. (STOP: No discussion on this topic please!!!!!).

I am not sure if price is really the issue, because MC is dead cheap for serious music lovers. Maybe it is the lack of partnership deals with the right companies?

[twentworth22]

Ask the Nullsoft guys how happy they were going to AOL!  MC is probably the last full featured "Media Center" that isn't tied to a specific hardware or online music agenda.  That is a very good thing and would likely need to go away if someone else were to acquire/invest in them.

That being said I work in software with lots of other music geeks and none of them have even heard of MC.  I think the next step would be to hire a PR agency and get some coverage in the consumer press like PC World, CNET, etc.  But then again, perhaps they are happy where they are with a loyal customer base that will keep paying for upgrades every 6-10 months.  That isn't a bad position to be in either.  Any move to the "mainstream" is going to upset the hard core user base. 

Anyway, J River is one of the last great examples of for-profit software that clearly demonstrates value over free (iTunes) or open-source solutions.  Every time I think open source I think of these guys making a decent living doing what they love.  Too many people think all software companies are like Microsoft and open source is the only answer- it isn't.

[cncb]

I also have increasing issues with the "pay for every upgrade" policy.  I've paid my $10 to upgrade to MC11 mostly because I wasn't sure how long the price would remain for.  To me, it seems like a very minor upgrade so far... a bit faster, a couple of new bits that I may or may not use.  I'm a little annoyed that we are expected to pay (again, only a few months after the MC9->MC10 switch).  I love MC, but it does feel like I'm renting it rather than owning it sometimes.

I don't understand this statement at all.  If they don't charge for an upgrade why would they be expected to make one?  They do need to make money to stay in business.  If you don't think the upgrade is worth it, then don't upgrade (although I think $10 is a bargain).  No one is forcing you to...

[hit_ny]

I'm quite happy with the way things are with JRiver. Last thing we need is for them to get bought out (tho i'm sure Jim would not mind

Cause that's when MC gets neutered for the mass market. Think winamp3 only worse.

Fact that not many people have heard of MC, makes it kinda cool to use it

[KingSparta]

Last thing we need is for them to get bought out

JimH is getting rather old, many have kicked his tires and moved on since the tires seemed to be a bit soft, mushy even on cold days.

[GHammer]

I don't understand this statement at all.  If they don't charge for an upgrade why would they be expected to make one?

To add new features that attract new customers.

[cncb]

To add new features that attract new customers.

Yes, but giving upgrades away free to existing customers probably won't attract new customers (at least not enough to compensate for giving it away for free).

[Charlemagne 8]

As we all know, the best product doesn't always "win".

sapnho has a good example.

It's widely accepted that Apple makes a more stable, more powerful and more versatile product. If you're into graphic artistry or music production professionally, what is known as "Microsoft" technology is not the best choice.

Actually Microsoft is the software. HP, Dell, Gateway, IBM and many others -- ALL except Apple, I think -- are still IBM-AT (yep, 8086 -- just really, really "souped up") architecture (hardware).

The reason that it's become so ubiquitous (OK, Cliff Clayborne takes over now)  is that at one point (early to mid 80's) IBM decided to change the architecture to "microchannel" and essentially gave away it's propreitary AT technology as being useless and outdated. After all, IBM was THE computer company that everyone else aspired to. They set the standards and saw no reason for that to change.

Obviously, microchannel didn't pan out but by the time that was apparent, AT was everywhere. IBM found that they were competing with themselves -- and behind in the game.

The same happened with Beta vs. VHS.

Beta was by far the better video format but Sony was much too proprietary. VHS was everywhere so it "won".

Supposedly, the story goes back further:  Ampex (Roberts and Aiwa are other names it either was or became) invented the video tape technology but didn't see a practical use for it so "gave" it to Sony.

There are tons of other examples of highly successful companies making stupid decisions to change a highly successful product -- remember "New Coke"?

What's my point in regards to the subject? Who the heck knows? I sure don't. I used to but I don't anymore.

CVIII

P.S.

I think that the reason that the multi-channel audio DVD stuff isn't yet taking hold is that DVD-Audio and SACD are locked in a kind of stalemate. Everyone who owns a Betamax (or knows someone who does) is reluctant to adopt a new format that may become obsolete.

[JimH]

Cheers, C8.

[Charlemagne 8]

[KingSparta]

Hey I liked "New Coke"

[JimH]

Leisure suits weren't as bad as some said either.

[Charlemagne 8]

New Coke tasted like Pepsi.

Lime green, short sleeved, polyester leisure suits. How I miss 'em.

[Alex B]

[Shelly]

New Coke tasted like Pepsi.

Lime green, short sleeved, polyester leisure suits. How I miss 'em.

Leisure suits weren't as bad as some said either.

Just came across an old picture of my husband from the '70's in a green polyester leisure suit.  Funniest thing I've ever seen!  Yes, Jim, they were that bad!!!

[GHammer]

Yes, but giving upgrades away free to existing customers probably won't attract new customers (at least not enough to compensate for giving it away for free).

Seems to work well for other apps I use.

[JimH]

Just came across an old picture of my husband from the '70's in a green polyester leisure suit.  Funniest thing I've ever seen!  Yes, Jim, they were that bad!!!

Oh, please post it!  We won't tell him.

[KingSparta]

It reminds me of a Video Game "Leisure Suit Larry"

(they seem to have a new version)

[KingSparta]

Green Leisure Suit Skin

good idea

Maybe Inline with the Yahoo Messager Audible "Disco: Roar"

[modelmaker]

 

Charlemagne8:  The same happened with Beta vs. VHS.

Beta was by far the better video format but Sony was much too proprietary. VHS was everywhere so it "won".

This is incorrect. Sony appropriated the helical scan system which was developed and patented by JVC. The case was in Japanese courts for over 10 years and in the end they found in favor of JVC. Sony (and Toshiba) were allowed to produce enough machines and tape for those already owning beta  for another 5 years but could no longer release new models. This affected the europeans (80% beta) more than the US (70% VHS) as JVC had already "won" here by that time.

Beta was slightly better (they scanned  25 more lines), but because beta was mostly viewed on Sony Triniton TVs (the best TVs on the market at the time), the impression was that beta was a lot better. Even JVC,  (for whom I was a sales rep at the time) TVs, couldn't hold a candle to those Trinitons!

Sony got the technology when they co-developed the original video cassette called the Unimat (3/4") with JVC and Bell&Howell. As I remember Sony was responsible for the transport, JVC the scanning system and B&H the electronics. I believe Ampex and Akai (they devoloped the tape and cassettes) were the only manufacturers of consumer models. This system was mainly used in TV studios but some were sold on the consumer market, they were very expensive (around $3000). Heck, the first VHS & Beta machines a few years later cost around $1800.

[MarkCoutinho]

For all your information: the by far best video-system was Video2000. By Philips. But as in many cases with Philips the marketing was awful so it 'died' as first of the three systems. Betamax existed quite longer after that.

That said: this all is way off topic in the meantime. For JRiver's sake I'd wish MC was more succesfull as it is now. It deserves it.

[Charlemagne 8]

modelmaker,

Cliffy would be so very proud of you.

CVIII

[IanG]

I also have increasing issues with the "pay for every upgrade" policy. 

I'd agree with that if the upgrades didn't meet my needs, but that's not the case.  I take the view that the $10 gives me a hot-line to the developers, who've implemented my requirements more than enough times to justify the price.

As to the original question, I think MC is incorrectly positioned as a media player that can organise things - I bought it on the basis that it's an organiser that can play things.

Ian G.

[modelmaker]

modelmaker,

Cliffy would be so very proud of you.

CVIII

Thanks!

And I agree with IanG, but that wouldn't be a very sexy way to sell it.

[JimH]

Thanks for everyone's concern on our behalf.  We're reasonably satisfied with the way things are going for Media Center.  We're way ahead of where we were last year at this time.

Comments above have largely centered on fame and fortune, but there are several other ways that I measure the success of our work.

Is the product of high quality?

Are we being creative in our work?

Are we treating our customers well?

Are we respectful of each other?

And are we having fun doing it?

There are some business people who have been far more successful in terms of money and fame, but some of them are in jail and a few others should be. 

I imagine this sounds a little old fashioned, but it's what I value.

[KingSparta]

I imagine this sounds a little old fashioned, but it's what I value.

I don't know why I smiled when i read this, i guess it is what we all should do in our own life.

Quality, Value And Pride In What Ever We Do In Our Own Life, And Have Fun At The Same Time.


Listening to: 'Lazy Days' from 'The Very Best Of Jazz' by 'Paul Hardcastle'

[UnknownID]

Comments above have largely centered on fame and fortune, but there are several other ways that I measure the success of our work.

Is the product of high quality?

Are we being creative in our work?

Are we treating our customers well?

Are we respectful of each other?

And are we having fun doing it?

There are some business people who have been far more successful in terms of money and fame, but some of them are in jail and a few others should be. 

I imagine this sounds a little old fashioned, but it's what I value.

My respect for the MC crew just went up 1000 fold!

UnknownID

[RobOK]

As we all know, the best product doesn't always "win".

There are tons of other examples of highly successful companies making stupid decisions to change a highly successful product -- remember "New Coke"?

New Coke came about because Coke was losing market share quickly due to the famous Taste Tests.  Pepsi was killing them with the Pepsi Challenge.  Coke ran the tests themselves and found the same thing -- people were picking Pepsi.  Why?  Because both Pepsi and Coke used "sip" tests and Pepsi is a lot sweeter.  The sweetness is what people react to right away.  But in the real world, people don't drink just  a sip, they drink the whole can or more.  Coke made major decisions based on a flawed test.  The better test was a product placement test, give people a case of the stuff in their own house and see which brand they liked better.  Then Coke wins big.

So maybe Media Center is not "winning" because many people are using the wrong tests.  They evaluate on too basic of criteria,  rather than deeper functions and managing huge libraries.   Clearly there are some hardcore fans here that find MC is exactly suited to what they need and probably most of us have tried many other products, but in our real world tests, MC always comes out on top!!

Now, about that Tivo bug....

[John Gateley]

Now, about that Tivo bug....

I'm working on it, really I am....

j

[geekbeats2]

I have to admit ive been very surprised that JRiver has never been as successful as it could have been. I think the main issue with its lack of popularity is the fact that you have to fork out some cash for it ( and a considerable amount of cash as far as downloaded programs are concerned).
I happily paid the money about a year ago because there was no doubt in my mind it was the best. Today, although i still believe it is one of the best, there are many open-sourced and free programs that are just as good.  I dont use it as much as i used to, but i still open it up once in a while. Still a great program!

[sapnho]

I imagine this sounds a little old fashioned, but it's what I value.

Do you have job vacancies?

(Just kidding...after Jim & Co I do have the best job in the world )

[GHammer]

I happily paid the money about a year ago because there was no doubt in my mind it was the best. Today, although i still believe it is one of the best, there are many open-sourced and free programs that are just as good.  I dont use it as much as i used to, but i still open it up once in a while. Still a great program!

I'd agree on playback only.

On managing my audio colection, creating playlists that actually reflect what I want,  syncing to handhelds/laptops, and having the ever cool Playing Now, I have yet to see a paid or free tool that does everything that MC does.

In fact, when everything is working well, it is hard to match MC's abilities with a combination of other tools.

[hit_ny]

So maybe Media Center is not "winning" because many people are using the wrong tests.  They evaluate on too basic of criteria,  rather than deeper functions and managing huge libraries.   Clearly there are some hardcore fans here that find MC is exactly suited to what they need and probably most of us have tried many other products, but in our real world tests, MC always comes out on top!!

I dont see it as winning but in terms of expanding market share. Is JRiver doing what it takes to increase market share ?

Do you see any ads for it anywhere ? Do you see the major rags reviewing it ?

I have not, simple reason is they dont market it as aggresively as others do. Personally this does not matter much to me, i know what MC can do as do many others on this board and would prefer resources be spent making it better than crowing about it.

The other issue that comes to mind is the control it gives is applicable to experienced media collectors. I think this is MC's target audience.

There is a little learning curve in this media world, people start of with simple players of which there are tons out there, slowly they accumulate media, and organisation issues come out (if they ever do). Then the question becomes how do i know what i have and find it quick. You see until this question pops in someone's mind, players like winamp et al win out. There are a lot of new users for the basic players, but the number of experienced media collectors grows slowly.

The good news here i think for JRiver is as time goes on people look for something more powerful and that's when they come here.

[IanG]

There is a little learning curve in this media world, people start of with simple players of which there are tons out there, slowly they accumulate media, and organisation issues come out (if they ever do). Then the question becomes how do i know what i have and find it quick. You see until this question pops in someone's mind, players like winamp et al win out. There are a lot of new users for the basic players, but the number of experienced media collectors grows slowly.

Yes!!

The good news here i think for JRiver is as time goes on people look for something more powerful and that's when they come here.

My experience is that people tend to accept shortcomings in apps as a necessary evil - it doesn't occur to them that there are better alternatives.  Even when it does, you've still got the problem of trying to sort through them all, usualy with only a hazy notion of what the real requirements are.  Maybe as things like HTPCs become more widespread we'll see more popular press articles explaining that the other man's grass realy is greener.

Ian G.

[silkshadow]

Well, I like to voice my opinons on things, but I am not really active in this forum. However after reading this thread with pure positives, I wanted to thow a *slightly* differnt perspective to it. Before I do, I just wanted to say, "Bravo" to JimH's post about goals. :clap: That was well said and rare to hear now-a-days.

Given what JimH wrote, I am not sure if what I am about to say will be helpful. However, here goes. I would have never bought MC if it wasn't for DHill's MC plugin for Meedio. Even after I was demoing it (with the plugin) I still wasn't sure it was worth it. A couple of reasons:

As has been stated broadly here, there are tons of alternatives which are free. Yeah, MC might have a few more features but I can pickup 99% of those extra features with freeware utilities. Also, with other products, I would be able to use far better MP3 tagging library than YABB. YABB, well, its not good. Not one of my Chinese or JPop MP3s has YABB been able to identify. Whereas freedb, for example, gets 40-50% of them. So IMO, to sell more MC licenses, J River must find a way to differenciate itself from other products. Also offering an alternative tag lookup option would be key (I might be off here as I haven't gotten atagger working right yet and don't know what databse it uses).

The big issue for me though, is the update policy. Its my general rule to never buy software that charges for updates (some call 'upgrades' but its almost always just an update) within 1-1.5 years after I buy it. The only reason I ignored that this time is, for the first time in a while, I found a software that was charged correctly at $USD24. I know the reduced price is because of the $10 charge for the MC11 update but I, currently, have no intention of updating. Again IMO, to sell more licenses a 1 year grace period should be instituted on updates.

Anyway, there's a different perspective . All that being said, I do like J River and am very happy with my purchase. Anyone who hasn't seen J River and Meedio in action should give it a go, just for the experience if nothing else .

[nxtrack]

Let me first say this program is awesome.  But I do have some suggestions on the marketing.  In my opinion, the marketing approach that works is MusicMatch's: Give the basic software away for free, charge for the full version (with all features unlocked).  I believe this is the best way to increase market share/revenue

By giving the basic software away, your player will have a large base of free users.  When I first started with mp3 players, I chose the highest rated free player (based on my research) that contained an upgraded path should I want more power later. 

The valued of these free users can't be underestimated.  First, free users create free users (word of mouth).  Second, Free users turn into paid users when they are ready for new features.  When are they ready?  Who knows, but when they are, they upgrade the free product with which they are already comfortable.  Pain is the third reason: Learning a new program is painful for many users.  So the thought of changing programs (from iTunes, MM, etc.) for a couple of new features is not worth the time/effort/pain in their minds.  Give them something good enough to get them started for free, then they will choose the pain free upgrade path.

So I would scrap the 30 day trial (not even to test full features).  Give away the basic program, charge for access to full version AND charge a small amount for full version upgrades (different than MM).

[cattani]

i agree, good point

[gpvillamil]

Why isn't MC more successful?

Probably marketing, and alliance development.

However, something I've noticed over the past 4 years of using it, is that it never seems quite finished. There is always something a bit rough around the edges in terms of design, features, etc.

There has never been a complete, visually integrated set of skins and track infos (that has shipped with the program).
The wording of menus and dialogs is occasionally confusing and inconsistent (eg. the use of "image" and "cover art").
Getting a nice set of skins requires diving into the forums, where the discussion can be quite wild and wonderful.
The reliance on skins means that "standard" Windows operations are hard to find or perform (eg. the Move/Resize operations for Windows that are usually attached to the top left corner icon of a Window).
Even moving the MC window can be confusing - there is no indication of what the "anchor" is, since there is no title bar.
Many operations require going through 3 or 4 levels of nested menus.
iPod support (while it represents a *fantastic* effort) is not sanctioned by Apple.
DVD codecs are not included, and it is not made clear that they are required.

In general, people who've seen MC at home, and are not technically oriented, feel that it requires quite a lot of effort to do simple things.  It feels like a tinkerer's tool, not something that just plays music.

Of course, you can get it to do *complicated* things that other programs can't match, but for out of the box usability, it can be a bit forbidding.

[Bill Kearney]

Anyway, there's a different perspective . All that being said, I do like J River and am very happy with my purchase. Anyone who hasn't seen J River and Meedio in action should give it a go, just for the experience if nothing else .

What about the combo appeals the most?

I'm delighted with MC's ability to cleanly playback to multiple output zones.  This alone makes it useful for my situation.  But playback of music seems to be getting lost among the never-ending series of 'feature creep' gizmos constantly being added to MC.  Yes, that's a complaint.  MJ with zones would be great, barring that MC11 is the only choice.

What I dislike about MC is it's failure to excel at any ONE set of things.  It's a jack-of-all-trades and almost a-master-of-none.  Hate to say it but without a serious amount of attention the theatreview is a hack that should be tossed out.  When compared to emerging efforts like Microsoft's I sense trouble on the horizon.  The plug-in capability of things of it and things like Meedio seem far better that what's offered in MC (at this point).  They can add zones, can MC compete on the other features?  Then there's things like Command Cubes offering another set of competitive issues.

I'd most like MC to better support the sort of interfaces for touchscreens and '10 foot user interfaces' from big screens.  The rest of the stuff, for ripping and portable devices, aren't all that useful to me.  Especially given the superior track lookup features in other products.

But hey, just my 2 cents as a current paying customer.  I've already been sold, the question is whether I'll help 'sell' it to other new customers.  At this point it's just got too much of a 'hack factor' to make it suitable for me to recommend to others.  That and without it 'buckling down' and cohesively finishing the features I most need I'm not all that sure about re-upping for future upgrades.

Thus MC 'sucks less' than the others but it's like the old joke "I'm fat but you're ugly and I can lose weight."  Trouble is MC's leaning too much toward the 'ugly' column while things like Meedio, CC, and even Microsoft's offerings merely need to add zones.

[JimH]

Hate to say it but without a serious amount of attention the theatreview is a hack that should be tossed out. 

Are you talking about Theater View in MC10 or MC11.  They're different.

[gpvillamil]

...
At this point it's just got too much of a 'hack factor' to make it suitable for me to recommend to others.  That and without it 'buckling down' and cohesively finishing the features I most need ...

Yep, this nails it. The market for people who want to tinker and invest in getting MC running is far smaller than the market for people who want easy access to their music.

For starters, one of the things JR should do *immediately* is separate the forums for MC10 (a stable product) from those from MC11 (alpha? beta?). I suspect that the MC10 customers are being scared off by the MC11 discussions, and that their voice is not being heard. If you were researching a purchase and looked at the forums, what kind of impression would you get? Also, what kind of market feedback is JR getting from a community that is willing to tinker endlessly with a beta version?

Ideally, the MC10 forum should be mostly "how do I do this in MC10" and the MC11 forum (suitably identified as a *development* forum) is where you'd find all the "crash & burn" type comments.

I would *love* to recommend MC to friends - but if I did, I'd be creating a lot of work for myself...

[Jaguu]

Finding an answer to some of the very good feedbacks on this thread:

Sometimes love is simply unheard...

[Fixer]

I've never figured out why CD-TEXT never really caught on as SOMETHING WAY COOL.

I think I own ONE cd with cd-text,  Greg Allman / Searching for Simplicity.

Maybe Sony wanted way high licensing fees?