Topic: MJ Directions and Pricing (Read 11214 times)

JimH · « **on:** September 27, 2002, 10:38:18 am »

We recently laid out our development directions in this thread and asked for your feedback:

Which Path Should We Take?
http://www.musicex.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=1032479920

and our pricing policy plans in this thread and again asked for your opinion:

Version 8 Customers Will Have To Pay For Version 9!?
http://www.musicex.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=1032414020

It was clear from the first thread (on direction) that there were two camps. One camp (the larger) wants a pure music product. The other camp (smaller, but the one I'm in) wants a complete integrated media solution.

PRODUCT DIRECTION
I'm proposing now that we split what we offer into two products:

Media Jukebox 8 will go on as the music product. We will remove TV and DVD from it.

Media Jukebox 9 will become JRiver Media Center. It will include the current 8.0 feature set plus image playback and TiVo-like recording. It will probably use the new HairStyle interface as its default interface. This product will target people who are tying their PC, their Stereo, and their TV together into a single system.

PRICING PLAN -- DRAFT ONLY -- MAY CHANGE
Media Jukebox Version 8.0 (without TV and DVD) will be $24.98. It will work with a 7.x license, and 8.0, and a 9.0 license. No upgrade prices will be offered from version 6 or below.

Media Center (the current MJ Version 9.0) will be $29.98 until December 15, $39.98 after that. The 9.0 license, now available, will also work with 8.0 so you can use both products. Media Center will also work with any MJ 8.0 license bought before about October 15.

An MJ 8.0 license bought after October 15 can be upgraded to Media Center for $19.98.

Will that work for you? Thanks again for letting us know what you think. It helps a lot to hear the detail.

ChicoSelfs · « **Reply #1 on:** September 27, 2002, 10:51:42 am »

Quote

An MJ 8.0 license bought after October 15 can be upgraded to Media Center for $19.98.

two questions:
MJ 7.xx license don't have the same type of upgrade?

You still offer 30 days of full trial?

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 27, 2002, 04:08:22 pm »

As a user of Media Jukebox since Version 5 and a Beta Tester since Version 7, I found myself inexplicably passing on Version 9.
The direction you are going with it is, as I have stated, the one that you should be going in. That is the future. Be there.
Having said that, the news that you are continuing with 8 as a strictly music/file handling product is VERY welcome news. I didn't know HOW welcome until I read it.
I have no interest in DVD's and/or computer integrated TV. Music is my Thang. It has been for over 30 years. I don't have a DVD player, surround sound (although that might be interesting as applied to 6 channel music a la SACD or DVD Audio) or even a cable TV subscription. I don't watch videos except on rare occasions. I don't watch TV except specific shows.
All this is leading to the statement that I am very pleased with this announcement and you can expect my help and participation in the music-related product for as long as you desire. Thank you very much for listening.
CVIII

RemyJ · « **Reply #3 on:** September 27, 2002, 04:10:06 pm »

I think this is a great idea with 1 caveat... Hopefully, the 2 versions will stay comparable and interoperable with each other from a music point of view. I realize look and feel may differ but I'm thinking about tagging, media server, etc. I might actually run both versions on different machines.

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 27, 2002, 04:14:25 pm »

RemyJ,
I think the idea is that 9 will be 8 enhanced with DVD and TV and probably many other things but 9 will do what 8 will do except more.
Am I right, JimH?
CVIII

RemyJ · « **Reply #5 on:** September 27, 2002, 04:19:00 pm »

Quote

RemyJ,
I think the idea is that 9 will be 8 enhanced with DVD and TV and probably many other things but 9 will do what 8 will do except more.
Am I right, JimH?
CVIII

Yep, I just don't want to see them diverge over time. Hopefully they'll both use the same music "code base" so that fixes, enhancements, etc. get made in both. I'd hate to see a tagging issue where a track written by either version can't be read or manipulated by the other.

KingSparta · « **Reply #6 on:** September 27, 2002, 04:19:11 pm »

>> The 9.0 license, now available
when did this happen?

I Seen No Anouncement here and for some reason you did not SPAM me with it. (you know how much I love MJ SPAM).

SPAM Me Please!

JaredH · « **Reply #7 on:** September 27, 2002, 04:33:55 pm »

I am personally thrilled with the layout of the direction you are going with the two products. I do have one question tho Jim. Will you continue to upgrade on MJ8 as a Music player or will you eventually phase out enhancements on it. Im just curious because if they are going to fork and become two separate products (MJ8 Music, MJ9 media center) I would like to see some things that are in the Preview of MJ9 implemented into MJ8, such as the dockable properties window. Or will you be going the route of taking your Current MJ9 preview and then stripping all of the image/dvd/tv/etc coding from the program. Either way im perfectly happy with whichever way you guys decide to do it. I was just curious as to how you guys would carry on both at the same time. Maybe im putting the cart before the horse here.....Keep it up guys. Brilliant minds over there at J River.

Scronch · « **Reply #8 on:** September 27, 2002, 04:46:32 pm »

The concept is good, but the proposed implementation is not.

Sequential release numbering implies eventual replacement, or at the very least dropping of support. A commitment to continue developing MJ8 ("the music-only product") is somewhat hollow, because someday your financials will dictate a new, full release of the "music-only product". What then? Will it be called MJ10, and then the follow-on to MJ9 ("the full product") will be MJ11? HP got themselves into this mess a while back with HP-UX. Even-numbered releases ended up being for Unix workstations, and odd-numbered releases for server hardware. It was silly and very confusing. If you do not plan a future full release of the "music-only product", then the direction that has been so thoroughly discussed on this forum is simply being delayed.

I honestly feel that the video, DVD, TV, etc. functions of "the full product" should be offered as a plug-in to the "music-only product". If that marketing angle makes you wince, then reverse it. The default purchase is for "the full product" for $40. The purchaser has the right to check a box declining the video, DVD, TV, etc. functions, in which case he gets the "music-only product" for $25--if he decides to purchase that capability later, it costs him $20. The pricing is the same as your model, but the product will have consistent release numbering.

It's all in the naming. Offering MJ8 and MJ9 simultaneously implies MJ8 will be discontinued or unsupported someday.

Scronch

TimB · « **Reply #9 on:** September 27, 2002, 04:46:35 pm »

Jim, altho' I'm primary a music person I'd have to upgrade to the full product as I'd worry that your development efforts would be more focused on it and in the end the 8 product would lack features or new development.

This isn't a criticism of you, I've been a product manager for a major product and its hard to maintain focus when you've got more than one big hitter and in the end when an "8 or 9" decision has to be made I know what I'd do if I were you.

I think its great that you're so open to input btw.

-=Tim=-

sekim · « **Reply #10 on:** September 27, 2002, 04:57:52 pm »

If J River decides to rename v9 to Media Center it would be a moot point wouldn't it?

MJ8

MC Hammertime9

Though the distinction may be lost on many. I can see it now:

HELP I'VE DOWNLOADED blah blah blah....!!!!!

JimH · « **Reply #11 on:** September 27, 2002, 05:45:56 pm »

Scronch's point about implementation is well taken. We'll try not to get tangled up.

Remy, I agree on code base. That was Matt's first reaction.

We'll probably stick with MJ8 as the music player now and shift to a music-only version of 9 when we release MC/aka MJ 9.

Tim,
We'll try to let the market tell us which way to go. We're not proud. We'll sell whatever you're buying.

sekim · « **Reply #12 on:** September 27, 2002, 06:14:35 pm »

Quote

We're not proud. We'll sell whatever you're buying.

Got a rubber chicken?

nila · « **Reply #13 on:** September 27, 2002, 06:27:35 pm »

I personally love this idea as the Media center has no appeal to me whatsoever. I want a pure music program and that's MJ without all the new perks.
In america the move to HDTV was greater than in the UK because from what I've been told, your initial TV resolution was substantially lower than in the UK. This meant that the appeal to upgrade was a lot greater.
The higher standard resolution in the UK means people aren't in as great a rush.
Also, i really haven't sen much HDTV here.

As for MS's dream of it all integrated, I think this will eventually happen but not for quite a while.
Sure there are a lot of computer tech guys who want this, but most people with cash (those over around 25) still tend to, quite justfiably, not trust computers.
Who wants their house ran by a computer when a simple virus could hit their computer and make it burn all their toast, wake them up in the middle of the night etc.

I too am really worried though about this idea. It's great saying your going to make two products but this means alot of extra work. Are you going to hire more programmers in or is one of the two products (v9 I'm guessing) going to get all the attention while v8 remains unchanged and stagnent. I'd truely HATE to see this happen. I think a lot of people will want to update to v9 for it's extra music features but wont want to pay the large price thats required to cover the development of the tv, dvd, etc.

That's why the plugin idea appeals to me the most as well. The whole program can change and extra features can be added via modules - TV can be added, Hairstyle can be added, etc etc. This would allow them to be worked on seperately away from the main product. The main product would continue to be updated as often as it is now and continue to have us all waiting to see what new feature is coming next.

The other added bonus of the plugin idea is that it would allow people to make plugin's as they do now except with much greater power to add functionality to more specialised areas as they saw fit. This would allow you to keep focusing on a main program that appealed to the masses while keeping the more specific requirements met either by your own plugins or other developers ones.

JaredH · « **Reply #14 on:** September 27, 2002, 08:57:27 pm »

Jim, you say that youll probly stick with MJ8 for now as the music only player. Does that mean that you will have an update release in the near future stripped of the TV and DVD player? Curious.

Scronch · « **Reply #15 on:** September 28, 2002, 12:12:33 am »

JimH> We'll try to let the market tell us which way to go. We're not proud. We'll sell whatever you're buying.

Oh please. You (collectively) certainly are proud. That's why your product offers what it does, your code is as good as it is, and your responsive to customer input (e.g. your reading this very post) is open-minded. No false humility here! We have seen the emperor's shoes, and they wear the same as our's.

Looking forward to spending some time with John G tomorrow, or shall I say, later today?

Scronch

TimB · « **Reply #16 on:** September 28, 2002, 02:46:50 am »

Quote

We'll probably stick with MJ8 as the music player now and shift to a music-only version of 9 when we release MC/aka MJ 9.

Jim, I like this!

BTW, I'm a HUGE TiVo fan. I think its a great concept plus exceptional implementation. They've exposed just enough UI to make it workable without overwhelming the novice user, who IMNSHO is their target. I (a computer geek) can use it and my wife (a regular, tho' smart and cute (he quickly adds)), human being) can too. Achieving that goal sounds simple but god knows its not.

-=Tim=-

JimH · « **Reply #17 on:** September 28, 2002, 04:36:42 am »

Quote

Jim, you say that youll probly stick with MJ8 for now as the music only player. Does that mean that you will have an update release in the near future stripped of the TV and DVD player? Curious.

Maybe.

JimH · « **Reply #18 on:** September 28, 2002, 04:40:08 am »

Quote

Looking forward to spending some time with John G tomorrow, or shall I say, later today?

I wish I were there too but 6 hours on a motorcycle is a little daunting. Be sure to ask him about his new plug-in. If he doesn't understand in a few seconds, say "for the motorcycle".

NoCodeUK · « **Reply #19 on:** September 28, 2002, 06:48:08 am »

I like the sound of the new directions. I agree with Nila that as yet HDTV and TiVO have not really taken off as they should in the UK and are currently not something I could afford but like Tim said above I would probably go for MC anyway just cos Im a sucker for new technology and wouldn't want to fell I was being left out of the race!! The new Hairstyle interface looks like it could be really exciting. Eventually I would like the computer to be the hub for all my entertainment and I would much rather this technology was being implem,ented by J River than by MS.

Keep up the good work guys. And I shall be taking up the offer to use my current MJ8 license to u/g to MC or MJ9. Thanks for a great product....

Adam

TimB · « **Reply #20 on:** September 28, 2002, 08:07:39 am »

Quote

I agree with Nila that as yet HDTV and TiVO have not really taken off as they should in the UK

TiVo hasn't really taken off in US either yet unfortunately. I worship at the altar of TiVo. I love it!

-=Tim=-

KingSparta · « **Reply #21 on:** September 28, 2002, 09:48:37 am »

>> TiVo hasn't really taken off in US either
I think that really may not be true

I wanted a TiVo but they were saying Upto 30 Hours (Low Res) like that is squat. I was waiting for the newer ones, but i would like the direct Tv built in to replace one of the two Sony Direct TV Boxes I Currently Have.

Xstatic · « **Reply #22 on:** September 28, 2002, 10:01:04 am »

Jim H, I think it makes sense - I will for sure go for the media center.

I haven't got the guts right now to try out the alpha version of v.9 (motherboard breakdown, hd breakdowns recently, so I am not feeling risky...),
so I don't know the meaning of this concept "hairstyle"..

so my q is: will we loose the mega-me skins in v.9 and have hairstyle instead...or have both..?

JimH · « **Reply #23 on:** September 28, 2002, 10:20:57 am »

Quote

so I don't know the meaning of this concept "hairstyle"..

so my q is: will we loose the mega-me skins in v.9 and have hairstyle instead...or have both..?

It's another mode. You won't lost mega skins. You can think of it as a simplified "cover" for MJ. One with simplified controls that work well with a remote.

RedJ · « **Reply #24 on:** September 28, 2002, 10:27:53 am »

I do think it's a good thing to create distinct products, and I would hope in a best-case scenario I could have the two versions co-exist on the same computer so I could run whichever best fit the situation (I'm assuming MJ Music will run leaner than the do-everything MC)

I am concerned for those who have already purchased a ver7/8 license and choose to stick with the music only product. I think you'd get a LOT of flak for taking away features that were included when the license was purchased (you do an automatic update, and suddenly you've lost your DVD playback!)

I think offering 2 new product versions is the practical way to do this: MJ9 Music and MC9 "Everything+Kitchen Sink" with 2 different pricing structures. MJ9 Music could work with a "MJ8" license purchased after 10/15 but MC9 would require a new or upgraded license. This would hypothetically also make your code base a lot easier to manage and update, since they would both stay fundamentally the same product but with different features enabled (like the old days of the Free and Licensed MJ)

KingSparta · « **Reply #25 on:** September 28, 2002, 10:54:23 am »

>> I think you'd get a LOT of flak for taking away
>> features that were included when the license was >> purchased
well not really

Users Also Do not need to update.

MJ8 Users can upgrade to MC for free if bought before oct deadline.

the html's need to be changed to reflect that.

JimH · « **Reply #26 on:** September 28, 2002, 11:19:15 am »

Quote

(I'm assuming MJ Music will run leaner than the do-everything MC)

Not necessarily much different. If you look in the Program Files/Media Jukebox, you'll see a lot of dll's. These get loaded and unloaded all the time, so even now, MJ runs in about 6 MB of memory when minimized without visualizations or DSP.

Scronch · « **Reply #27 on:** September 28, 2002, 04:12:35 pm »

JimH> Be sure to ask him about his new plug-in. If he doesn't understand in a few seconds, say "for the motorcycle".

Sorry, didn't have a chance to check Interact before heading out this morning. I spent a fun hour with John at Silver Creek Brewing (http://scbco.com). Discussed past programming experiences, beers and places for John to enjoy in Milwaukee. I gave him a tour of the brewing equipment, and then he was off to continue his two-wheeled tour of Packerland. Couldn't convert him to a cheesehead, but then, I don't think he's much of a Vikings fan, either.

Scronch

JimH · « **Reply #28 on:** September 28, 2002, 04:17:09 pm »

Thanks for showing John around, Scronch. We'll here about it Monday.

The plug-in was his jacket. It plugs into the bike's electrical system to keep him warm. I'm hoping it worked.

Scronch · « **Reply #29 on:** September 28, 2002, 04:20:56 pm »

I don't know. He said it got pretty cold last night.

I agree with you that 6 hrs on a cycle through Minnesota and Wisconsin in late September is daunting.

Scronch

JimH · « **Reply #30 on:** September 29, 2002, 04:27:21 am »

bumping back up

bc · « **Reply #31 on:** September 29, 2002, 08:59:36 am »

Jim H--

>The 9.0 license, now available, will also work with 8.0 so you can use both products. Media Center will also ork with any MJ 8.0 license bought before about October 15.

So--if I understand this correctly--since I purchased 8.0 before Oct. 15, I will have full use of 9.0 aka Media Center at no additional upgrade cost.

If this correct, I love you.

nila · « **Reply #32 on:** September 29, 2002, 09:08:03 am »

I think you'll find you love them

JimH · « **Reply #33 on:** September 29, 2002, 09:27:59 am »

Quote

Jim H--

>The 9.0 license, now available, will also work with 8.0 so you can use both products. Media Center will also ork with any MJ 8.0 license bought before about October 15.

So--if I understand this correctly--since I purchased 8.0 before Oct. 15, I will have full use of 9.0 aka Media Center at no additional upgrade cost.

Correct.

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #34 on:** September 29, 2002, 11:52:35 am »

OK. So when does MJ9 (or MC9?) get out of alpha? Or is it considered a Beta already?

I'm not going to try it until it's beta. Some of us still have old, rickety computers with uncertain OS's.

The fact that my computer isn't a good candidate for an XP upgrade and that at least two of the third-party plug-ins won't work on Win98, I am leary of moving forward.

I found out a long time ago that upgrading was not always a good thing. Remember DOS 6.0? DOS 5 was a WAY better product.

But I could just be paranoid. On the other hand, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you.

Well, I'm out of hands, now.

CVIII

JimH · « **Reply #35 on:** September 29, 2002, 12:22:37 pm »

Quote

OK. So when does MJ9 (or MC9?) get out of alpha? Or is it considered a Beta already?

The fact that my computer isn't a good candidate for an XP upgrade and that at least two of the third-party plug-ins won't work on Win98, I am leary of moving forward.

But I could just be paranoid. On the other hand, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you.
CVIII

Ah, I thought you said "never" was a good time to upgrade.

The version 9 that is on the beta page now is stable enough to be used. The only downside is that we will probably break it occasionally so you might be forced to go back to v8 for a day sometime.

The data format problems are behind us. Any new version will upgrade older data if necessary. Shouldn't happen more than once or twice.

I'm about as confident as it's possible to be that there will be no harm done to your data files. If you're really concerned, copy a few to a new folder and try it there.

Installing 9 backs up your 8 data. Don't uninstall 8.

Consider yourself a benchmark for us to aim at. If we can get you to switch, we can get anybody.

zevele10 · « **Reply #36 on:** September 29, 2002, 12:58:44 pm »

I just stop by for few minutes.
I do not care that much about the pricing side

Much about the upgrades of the 'musical one'
I see the situation like it:
you are in a state of changement,but you see things this way:in the near future a 9 jukebox and a 9 mediaplayer,after that a 10 jukebox and a 10 mediaplayer.
You will upgrade both sides ,music and media.
I am right? Or not?

If you keep 8,look like we will stay with a jukebox not evolving.In another hand,you cannot put many upgrades in 8 just not making money of it.
In the other hand people like me would not see the point to upgrade if the jukebox part stays more or less the same in any media edition.

pricing is not a problem to me.But keep in mind that there is more than zevele,king,karolus,hth and others to MJ:there is a lot of younger users who do not see $20 as pocket money as we do .
In another hand we are twice as much older than them,so we DO need some compentations,fair income is one of them

By the way:what is TIVO-TV/

JimH · « **Reply #37 on:** September 29, 2002, 01:06:13 pm »

It's hard to know what it will look like a year from now.

We will probably do a music only version of what MJ 9 is now, and that might be out in 3 or 4 months.

After that, we'll try to work off the same code base, so we can continue to offer a music version of the latest we have.

I'm not sure what I'm having for lunch tomorrow. I think I'm having a gin and tonic in about two hours.

KingSparta · « **Reply #38 on:** September 29, 2002, 01:17:03 pm »

MJ9 Or MC9

Is Stable.

I Don't Think Installing Over MJ8 Works Too Good At Least It Did Not Work For Me. I Had To Uninstall And Install MJ9 And Then It Worked.

Scronch · « **Reply #39 on:** September 29, 2002, 01:49:25 pm »

After thinking about this for awhile, I still feel that MJ (or MC) should include everything, and the buyer be able to decline extra functionality; declining all extras gives you the music-only product. Anyway, what I realized is that, while I am not now interested in DVD or video in general, I agree with TimB that the TiVo concept is great. When MJ/MC is able to do that, I will definitely want the full package. In fact, I am going to start a "TiVo-like" thread with some questions.

Scronch

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #40 on:** September 29, 2002, 02:34:33 pm »

I have never before been accused of being hidebound and resistant to change. I guess I really am getting old.
(I know those were not your words but that's what I heard.)
Besides, Jim, you ought to know by now that I can't resist (for long) a new version of MJ. My curiosity is just as strong as it ever was.
_{I'm still holding out on Explorer 6}

BTW, Zevele, changement is not a word (I don't think) but I like it.

CVIII

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #41 on:** September 29, 2002, 02:51:11 pm »

Quote

Well, the good news is MJ 9 should have super fancy burning that will get rid of all the "generic burner" limitations and add some great new features ...

Well why didn't anybody SAY so! That's different. I've been dealing with "generic" burning and no DAO ever since Version 7 came out.

CVIII

JohnC · « **Reply #42 on:** September 30, 2002, 01:34:37 am »

HI JIm

I don't know if my interpretation of this is correct, but from what you say at the beginning of this topic, it seems that those who have paid for a licence for Vers 8( which included TV and DVD Playback) will now have this option taken away. This will just leave a totally music Database and Playback facility. Is this right???

Please can you clarify this for me.

Thanks

John C

JimH · « **Reply #43 on:** September 30, 2002, 05:13:28 am »

Quote

HI JIm

... it seems that those who have paid for a licence for Vers 8( which included TV and DVD Playback) will now have this option taken away. Is this right?

You can archive copies of the download now and not have this problem. We may also make older copies available.

zevele10 · « **Reply #44 on:** September 30, 2002, 06:47:06 am »

Karolus 8
changement is french but i was sure the same in english......But must be changing.
In this case 'changement' is better,you feel the all process going on.

Concerning your computer: do you have a WindowsME "near you"?
If you can get it,it would make your computer runs better.
I know that ME as to be "the worst Windows".It is not true,i can tell you.
But there is a rule:CLEAN INSTALL,not upgrade

JaredH · « **Reply #45 on:** September 30, 2002, 08:00:05 am »

ACK!! Windows ME, ive never seen an OS so buggy before in my life. Win3.1 was better. Clean install or upgrade. I would stay clear of ME. Ive seen nothing but problems from ME on many any computer running the OS. Just my two cents.

John Gateley · « **Reply #46 on:** September 30, 2002, 11:47:55 am »

The Silver Creek Brewing Company is worth a visit.

The location is amazing (though you need better signs Scronch). There's an outdoor seating area with a waterfall/creek next to it (complete with ducks). As you walk in, you are in a room that has a vertical turbine that used to drive the mill. The water runs underneath the walkway. Then there's another door before you reach the bar - it's about 10 feet high, 3 inches thick, and solid oak from the original furnishings. (no I don't normally get excited about doors, but this one is cool).

Inside is a friendly room, and the music comes from Media Jukebox (with really cool technique for switching smartlists at appropriate times of the day).

The beer list is pretty amazing, and can only get better when they start brewing. I had a Rasberry Tart beer (St. Glarus), that reminded of my days in Europe (fruit beers (lambic?) are good), and samplers of Louie's demise (lovies demise), Three Floyds, a belgian wheat beer, and one other I can't remember but they all were good.

In summary, go there - even if it means an 800 mile round trip via motorcycle.

I'll have a couple of pictures soon.

j

zevele10 · « **Reply #47 on:** September 30, 2002, 12:14:04 pm »

Look like that Charlemagne 8 needs to change his computer if he wants to run XP
He has at this time 98,do not know if it is 98SE.
If he has someone with a WindowsME disc,until he gets a new computer,he his better to have ME.

I know it is so "in" to say ME is terrible.I run ME ,i NEVER EVER had a 'blue screen',many programs work better with ME,and the computer is faster.
I mean ME is better than to have 98SE or 98,not 2000 or XP.

Since few days i run 98SE english\hebrew because i needed to use hebrew.I can tell you that i really miss ME

I had much much more problem with 98 and 98SE than with ME.

Of cause i am not a computer genius,only someone using it a lot of hours a days.

On the top of it,any Windows if you take care of it is much better that all the comments you can read\hear

Much of the 'blue screen' are user related ,not OS

Scronch · « **Reply #48 on:** September 30, 2002, 02:44:15 pm »

Thanks for the kind words, John. I think the other beer you had was the Angelic Nut Brown, one of my favorites. I agree, they are all good. We're working through the sign approvals with the city ('nuff said). For now, people feel special when they find the place.

http://scbco.com/scenery/scene01.jpg
http://scbco.com/mill/pic-garden.jpg

Scronch

JimH · « **Reply #49 on:** October 02, 2002, 01:10:55 pm »

bumping to the top

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: MJ Directions and Pricing (Read 11214 times)

sekim

sekim

nila

RedJ

nila

zevele10

zevele10

zevele10