Topic: Pops and clicks (Read 13441 times)

Pink Waters · « **on:** February 22, 2006, 03:56:24 am »

Still gapless playback makes pop or click between musically connected tracks..

Edit: Honestly, I find MC makes many pops and clicks during playback in general in certain parts of songs (After you messed with the clip protection maybe??

sdcoochie8 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 22, 2006, 06:48:07 am »

I have been reading the threads concering the 11.1 builds more since I have just upgraded to it. I must agree there are a lot more pops and clips since upgrading. My system hasn't changed except for the fact that I am now using 11.1.123 all the options for playback were the same as version 11 but the clicking is quite frequent.

JimH · « **Reply #2 on:** February 22, 2006, 07:26:15 am »

Try switching playback between direct sound and wav out.

Try updating your sound card drivers.

What sound card are you using?

If you're using a sound card, make sure your bios has any onboard sound disabled.

Pink Waters · « **Reply #3 on:** February 22, 2006, 09:48:04 am »

Well,
I have Sound Blaster Audigy2 ZS
I experience some pops and click during playback, specially between gaps, with gapless playback on..

My point of view about gapless playback in the recent MC builds,.. I think gapless playback is not working, or broken, there still gaps between tracks combined with pops or clicks..

jagdriver · « **Reply #4 on:** February 22, 2006, 10:15:54 am »

I used to have a HUGE issue with pops and clicks in WinAmp. I don't at all now that I'm using MC fulltime. I'm running a Turtle Beach Riviera card.

JimH · « **Reply #5 on:** February 22, 2006, 10:28:55 am »

Try a google search for similar problems with Creative sound cards. We used to see these frequently.

Did you try updating your sound card driver?

sdcoochie8 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 22, 2006, 02:34:18 pm »

Myself I have on board sound and I have tried both methods of playback. This was never an issue in 11 and only became one after upgrading so I don't know how my sound drives have anything to do with it. All my other applications that use sound do not have the same pops and clicks. You would think if it was a driver issue than all sound apps would suffer from the same woes.

jagdriver · « **Reply #7 on:** February 22, 2006, 04:24:28 pm »

I also had pops and clicks suddenly rear their ugly little head after installing yet another piece of audio software to try out. I can't prove it, but I swear WinAmp was the biggest offender, hence it'll no longer be on my systems. To be clear, it's when these other software apps are *added* to what one already has. I wonder what would happen if only the latest MC build was on your system after it had been *thoroughly* cleaned out?

> Chris

JimH · « **Reply #8 on:** February 22, 2006, 07:28:17 pm »

Quote from: sdcoochie8 on February 22, 2006, 02:34:18 pm

You would think if it was a driver issue than all sound apps would suffer from the same woes.

Bugs sometimes occur under a specific set of conditions. These conditions may only occur with a single application.

glynor · « **Reply #9 on:** February 22, 2006, 09:05:16 pm »

I just thought I'd mention that with my Audigy2 card I had some very weird (and intermittent) sound problems from inside MC when I had any of the DSP Studio options enabled. Updating to the most recent drivers solved the problem.

I used to dread doing this with Creative's stuff, as their driver situation used to be a complete nightmare. Last I had to though, they had finally rolled out a unified driver for their Audigy sound cards (which finally didn't require installing a horrible chain of old drivers to "upgrade" you up to the most current).

It was nothing I would call clicks or pops, but it was random and bad. (Very low audio levels, sound only coming out one channel, and other weird stuff). If you haven't done it very recently, I'd say it's worth a shot.

lalittle · « **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2006, 09:48:30 pm »

I have noticed this issue lately as well -- specifically between WAV files.

Larry

sdcoochie8 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 23, 2006, 06:43:18 am »

Well I did do a software upgrade for my sound and Jim you were right in my case anyway. This has seemed to have solved the problem. Thanks again.

JimH · « **Reply #12 on:** February 23, 2006, 03:50:47 pm »

Quote from: sdcoochie8 on February 23, 2006, 06:43:18 am

Well I did do a software upgrade for my sound and Jim you were right in my case anyway. This has seemed to have solved the problem. Thanks again.

Thanks for the report.

Another possibility for anyone who has a problem is the well known (but no so commonly seen these days) problem with via chipsets and latency settings in the BIOS. Try a google search for these.

lalittle · « **Reply #13 on:** February 23, 2006, 05:50:17 pm »

Quote

Still gapless playback makes pop or click between musically connected tracks.

I tried updating to the latest drivers (SB Audigy 2) and still get this issue. It "feels" like an MC issue and not a latency (or other) issue since I don't remember this happening a while back on the same system. I certainly can't swear to that, but this "seems" like something I would have noticed and remembered. Also, I don't get the pops other than at the seams between songs, which would seem to point to something other than a latency issue. A latency issue (which I have run into in the past with other systems) would most likely effect the songs at any point and not just at the seams.

I tried increasing the buffereing time but it doesn't help. Note that this happens regardless of whether I play a file over the network, or on the local system's drive.

Just to confirm that it isn't the song itself, I took a pair of songs that normally pop in between them and stitched them together in the media editor. The waveform fits perfectly -- there is NO pop when I play accross the seam's location once they're combined.

Larry

Pink Waters · « **Reply #14 on:** February 24, 2006, 03:54:11 am »

For reference, The gapless playback is broken here when playing MP3 files

lalittle · « **Reply #15 on:** February 24, 2006, 05:39:30 am »

Quote from: Pink Waters on February 24, 2006, 03:54:11 am

For reference, The gapless playback is broken here when playing MP3 files

I actually started another thread dealing specifically with mp3 files and gapless playback. This has always been a limitation of mp3 files due to the fact that mp3 encoding adds a bit of silence to the end of tracks, but the newer LAME encoder (post 3.90.3) is "supposed" to have dealt with this by embedding information into the file that reveals exactly "how much" silence was added, thereby allowing this silence to be elimnated on playback. What I don't know is how effective this is, and whether or not MC is supposed to utlize this information during playback.

Here is the thread: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=32174.0

Larry

Pink Waters · « **Reply #16 on:** February 24, 2006, 07:41:44 am »

Mp3 gapless playback was working with me without any problems before

lalittle · « **Reply #17 on:** February 24, 2006, 07:57:27 am »

Quote from: Pink Waters on February 24, 2006, 07:41:44 am

Mp3 gapless playback was working with me without any problems before

Do you remember exactly which build? Juist to verify, you weren't using some form of cross-fade, correct? You're saying you were using gapless playback and you're positive that the same songs that were gapless before are no longer with the newer build/s?

Thanks,

Larry

hit_ny · « **Reply #18 on:** February 24, 2006, 08:08:02 am »

mp3 playback is never gapless, if we are talking seperate mp3s. Sometimes you notice it other times not, but thats not MC's fault, it tries its best. If gapless playback is desired, then you rip with cue files, and have effectively one big mp3 file.

I think what Pink Waters is talking about here is additional pops & clicks, noticed recently. i have the impression that those pops & clicks were not present in earlier versions.

Pink Waters · « **Reply #19 on:** February 24, 2006, 05:38:36 pm »

hit_ny, You are saying that Mp3s cannot be gapless,.. anyway whatever you call the the mp3 gapless playback in MC with mp3 is... latetly its not like that,, its worse

lalittle · « **Reply #20 on:** February 24, 2006, 06:33:54 pm »

Quote from: hit_ny on February 24, 2006, 08:08:02 am

mp3 playback is never gapless

According to the latest information, this is no longer true. The LAME encoder can now embed metadata into the file that shows exactly how much silence was added during encoding, which can theoretically elminate the gaps. This is apparently a relatively new developement that is not yet widely used. I have no personal experience with how effective it is, but according to the literature, it has the ability to completely fix this issue with mp3 files.

See this thread for more information:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=32174.0

Larry

Pink Waters · « **Reply #21 on:** February 25, 2006, 05:12:44 am »

Well to be sure of things..
I'm just tested again listening to old mp3 tracks I used to listen to since MC 9.1 with no noticable gaps,
No luck, its pretty obvious and noticable for me that there is a gap of pop and click,...
I am sure that this issue is new in those couple of latest 11.1 builds

lalittle · « **Reply #22 on:** February 25, 2006, 06:30:32 pm »

Quote from: Pink Waters on February 25, 2006, 05:12:44 am

Well to be sure of things..
I'm just tested again listening to old mp3 tracks I used to listen to since MC 9.1 with no noticable gaps,
No luck, its pretty obvious and noticable for me that there is a gap of pop and click,...
I am sure that this issue is new in those couple of latest 11.1 builds

If songs are encoded with a newer version of LAME that embeds the metadata into the file, AND if MC utilizes this metadata, gapless playback can supposedly be achieved with mp3s. Since MC apparently does NOT yet utilize this metadata, mp3s will not be gapless. This is a due to the way mp3s are encoded (i.e. the encoding process literally adds the silence to the file.)

Given this, it's just not possible that 9.1 played back mp3s gapless -- this was due to the limitation in mp3 encoding, NOT MC, and the ability to solve this (i.e. the metadata method mentioned above) had not yet been created. Is it possible that you had the playback options set to quickly crossfade the tracks? This is a trick that people have sometimes used to achieve "pseudo-gapless" playback.

Note that as I understand it, in JUST the right circumstances it's possible for songs to be encoded such that no silence is added, but this is not "controllable" -- it's just luck if this happens, and it's extremely rare.

Larry

hit_ny · « **Reply #23 on:** February 26, 2006, 12:31:35 am »

I think what Pink Waters is saying that when Gapless play was enabled with earlier builds of MC there was no pop & click. It's not true gapless but there was no pop & click, so for all intents & purposes it sounded OK.

This is not the case any more...

Can Pink Waters confirm that all the drives which his media is stored on are running in UltraDMA mode ?

Pink Waters · « **Reply #24 on:** February 26, 2006, 01:26:11 am »

lalittle, I am Trying hard with many posts to get you get my point but you are busy with the new lame encoder issue till the far that you cannot understand what I am saying..

I don't know if mp3s don't sound very gaplless with gapless playback on, but the old percentage gapless playback I've got with the older version decreased in a noticable way with pops and clicks in the latest new builds of MC... (hope you understand it this post)

lalittle · « **Reply #25 on:** February 26, 2006, 06:25:28 am »

Quote from: hit_ny on February 26, 2006, 12:31:35 am

I think what Pink Waters is saying that when Gapless play was enabled with earlier builds of MC there was no pop & click. It's not true gapless but there was no pop & click, so for all intents & purposes it sounded OK.

This is the quote from Pink Waters I was responding to in my last post:

Quote

I'm just tested again listening to old mp3 tracks I used to listen to since MC 9.1 with no noticable gaps

He didn't mention anything about "pops" in that post -- he simply mentioned "gaps." I took this to mean that he felt that MC used to play songs "gapless" but now it doesn't. I was merely trying to clarify the issue of "gaplessness" with mp3 files and MC.

Note also that I didn't bring up the gapless issue with mp3's until Pink Waters mentioned "broken" mp3 playback. It was at this point that I referenced the OTHER subject of the LAME encoder which seems interrelated with this issue.

Quote

I don't know if mp3s don't sound very gaplless with gapless playback on, but the old percentage gapless playback I've got with the older version decreased in a noticable way with pops and clicks in the latest new builds of MC... (hope you understand it this post)

It appears that we're talking about two different (albeit related) issues here -- the "gapless" issue and the more prominent appearence of "pops" in between tracks. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your posts, but I believe that these issues may be related, and the solution to one issue may present the solution to the other.

As I mentioned above, I agree that this build causes more pops than previous versions of MC, particularly (in my case) between wav files, which as far as I know did not used to produce pops in between the tracks.

Larry

Pink Waters · « **Reply #26 on:** February 26, 2006, 07:10:28 am »

lalittle, Yeah, now I have the sense that you've got the whole picture of whats going on,..

I think this issue started from the build that JRiver modified the clip protection ??

another thing also was happening lately but not very often, that the playback of mp3 files sometimes get cut and then resume again afterwards (something like a lockup) can you repproduce/confirm this ?

JimH · « **Reply #27 on:** February 26, 2006, 07:34:29 am »

Try turning off Windows system sounds in the Control Panel.

Alex B · « **Reply #28 on:** February 26, 2006, 01:40:13 pm »

Quote from: Pink Waters on February 26, 2006, 07:10:28 am

I think this issue started from the build that JRiver modified the clip protection ?? ...

Quote

11.1.122 (02/15/06)

18. Fixed: Clip-protection would not work as expected for the DSP applied to a CD burn. (attenuation would not rebound at the same rate as it would during regular playback)

11.1.123 (02/16/06)

6. Fixed: With DSP enabled and clip-control off, audio would not properly flat-line on overflows. (introduced in 122)
7. Optimized: Several more assembly optimizations to the core playback / decoding / conversion engine. (lower CPU usage, faster conversions, etc.)

I can verify and reproduce the gapless playback problem now.

I made three short Monkey's Audio test tracks. They don't play gaplessly with MC11.1.130.

They play gaplessly with MC 11.1.121 (ftp://ftp.jriver.com/pub/downloads/music/MediaCenter111121.exe) and foobar2000.

Obviously something has changed.

Here are the test tracks: testapes.zip (2.76 MB)

I tried the Direct Sound and ASIO output modes. The Switch Tracks option was set to Gapless. Naturally the "Do not play silence..." option was unselected.

Pink Waters · « **Reply #29 on:** February 26, 2006, 02:16:01 pm »

THANK YOU ALEX B, THANK YOU...!

Alex B · « **Reply #30 on:** February 26, 2006, 02:23:09 pm »

Pink, can you reproduce the problem with my test files? Try the build 121 too. You can install it on top of 130. The latest build can be installed back after testing without any side effects.

To all who read this:

Please try this and report here. I tried to make it easy for you. It would be good to have more reports.

lalittle · « **Reply #31 on:** February 26, 2006, 05:40:48 pm »

Quote from: Alex B on February 26, 2006, 01:40:13 pm

I can verify and reproduce the gapless playback problem now.

I made three short Monkey's Audio test tracks. They don't play gaplessly with MC11.1.130.

They play gaplessly with MC 11.1.121 (ftp://ftp.jriver.com/pub/downloads/music/MediaCenter111121.exe) and foobar2000.

Obviously something has changed.

Thanks for taking the time to do this.

One thing I've noticed is that with wav files, I don't get "gaps" between songs with the newer builds, but I DO get "pops" at the seams between many songs, which I don't remember happening before. I can't say which versions are/aren't effected at this point since I didn't test for this issue with every build, and I haven't yet tried re-installing earlier builds.

Thanks again,

Larry

Alex B · « **Reply #32 on:** February 26, 2006, 06:09:40 pm »

As an audio term gapless means perfectly seamless. If the track boundary is not perfectly seamless it is not gapless. Usually that does not mean you hear a silent gap. Instead you hear something else that is not seamless like a small "pop".

Please try the the test tracks with MC 11.130.

Krazykanuck · « **Reply #33 on:** February 26, 2006, 06:15:45 pm »

I ran your test.
I have 129 installed and I get a stutter between files.
I installed 111 (it's what I had available) and it works fine.

I ran it on three different systems with different sound cards and it stutters on all systems under 129.
Terratec DMX6fire, Hercules Gametheatre XP and an old soundblaster pci128.

Mr ChriZ · « **Reply #34 on:** February 26, 2006, 06:25:35 pm »

I'm confused! I just tried your tests Alex
on 11.1.130 and clear as day i could hear the pop's.
However I've been listening to APE files all week with those
settings and I haven't heard those pops, and so went back
and played Dark Side of the Moon (APE), I always remember this as
an album that requires gapless! Anyhow no pop at all
between tracks...

Additional Note.
Loaded 11.1.121 and can confirm no pops on tests here.

Alex B · « **Reply #35 on:** February 26, 2006, 06:58:19 pm »

I tried Dark Side Of The Moon, The Wall and Final Cut (all Pink Floyd albums that have many seamless track changes). In a quick test I could hear some pops and clicks here and there at the track boundaries. Some of them were very slight, but some were loud and clear like the track changes 2-3 and 3-4 on the Final Cut album. DSOTM has some clicks and pops too, but the music can mask them easily if you don't listen to very carefully. I used high-end headphones and a loud volume level.

lalittle · « **Reply #36 on:** February 26, 2006, 07:05:53 pm »

Alex,

In your last post, were all your tests using APE files? I've also been using Pink Floyd for my tests, but I've been trying wav files.

Thanks,

Larry

Mr ChriZ · « **Reply #37 on:** February 26, 2006, 07:27:27 pm »

I'll take your word for it

My Wireless headphones just ran out of batteries. Think they need a new battery pack. Don't think my housemates would appreciate me turning on my speakers
at the moment. It's 2am. 7 hours till my AI report deadline. Lots to do

Pink Waters · « **Reply #38 on:** February 27, 2006, 02:32:48 am »

What about some music lockup ? don't anyone get a lockup that stops the music for a second and then it starts again ? (While playing)

Matt · « **Reply #39 on:** February 27, 2006, 11:14:30 am »

Thanks for the clips AlexB.

In the next build:
Fixed: The last few bytes of audio would not always get output -- causing a pop in gapless playback. (introduced in 122)

Sorry for any hassle.

(p.s. I'm going to close this thread now)

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Pops and clicks (Read 13441 times)