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[JimH]

Tonight's build, 11.1.148, has the Perbcast Server included.  You can share your playlists as podcasts.  More information ins here:
http://www.perbcast.com/

Edit: Here's a link to the old thread on this subject (now locked):
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=32455.0

[EpF]

This is so very cool! I can't wait to set it up properly!

At the moment I have a DSL connection with Zone Alarm Pro, a Router and a DSL modem which requires NAT entries, and it's too late in the night to be wrestling with all the tweaks, but I'm really looking forward to sorting it out.

Out of total ignorance I have to ask: will it be possible to create a URL to link directly to the 'cast that we can e-mail, post etc.?

[marko]

also:

Is MC a requirement for playing a broadcast?

Can we host our own broadcast pages?

Sparta's broadcast works for me, but only if I use IExplorer. With firefox, nothing happens. Could someone confirm the links work from firefox before I waste a while trying to fix something I'm not able to.

[JimH]

... will it be possible to create a URL to link directly to the 'cast that we can e-mail, post etc.?

Thanks.  For the curious, here's a little more information. 

The gran pan pan playlist we are broadcasting results in the following link on our directory pagepcast://www.perbcast.com/cgi-bin/Get.cgi?Author=JRiver&Title=Gran Pan Pan:

pcast://www.perbcast.com/cgi-bin/Get.cgi?Author=JRiver&Title=Gran Pan Pan

The pcast portion is a protocol that allows a one-click subscription.  This works in MC.  I believe it works in the Mac version of iTunes.

If you strip off the pcast, you have:

www.perbcast.com/cgi-bin/Get.cgi?Author=JRiver&Title=Gran Pan Pan

If you insert that into IE, you can save the file.  It has a .pcast extension and I believe that the Windows version of iTunes will recognize it as a podcast.

If you open that file with notepad, you can see that it is an rss feed with enclosures (making it a podcast).

EDIT: -- if you try the links above, you'll need to replace the space in JRiver with %20 like this: J.%20River.

[JimH]

Is MC a requirement for playing a broadcast?

Can we host our own broadcast pages?

Sparta's broadcast works for me, but only if I use IExplorer. With firefox, nothing happens. Could someone confirm the links work from firefox before I waste a while trying to fix something I'm not able to.

Marko,
Anything that is podcast capable should work with it.  The links might need to be modified to make it work with different browsers or players.  See my last post for more.

When you say, "Our own broadcast pages", I'm not sure what you mean.  Your site?  Not at this time unless you manually build a page.  We expect to add personal pages to what we've got right now (which is extremely basic).

We're in a test mode right now, so any thoughts would be appreciated.

[JimH]

Here's a wikipedia link on podcasting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podcast

podcast is a misleading name.  It's not about iPods.  It's about a simple standard for Internet broadcasting.

[jgreen]

This looks interesting, JimH.  I'm going to wait a bit for smarter people to try it first, figure out firewall, etc. I'm hoping EpF gives a step-by-step with ZA.  Then it's time for the turtlenecks and pan flutes--the new age of media!

[lOth]

I'm going to wait a bit for smarter people to try it first, figure out firewall, etc.

Me too. In addition, I'll be waiting for the ability to publish the links on my own web space.

[JimH]

Would someone try playing my James Brown podcast ?

jgreen,

The configuration on a home network shouldn't be difficult.  You just need three things.

1.  The PC you're broadcasting from probably needs to be on a fixed IP address (not DHCP).  You can use the same address, gateway, etc.

2.  Your router needs to forward all requests on the Perbcast port you've set to that PC.
Example of configuration on a Linksys router: http://www.perbcast.com/images/linksys.jpg

3.  The firewall on your PC needs to be open both ways for TCP on that same port.

[IlPadrino]

Would someone try playing my James Brown podcast ?

No trouble from here...  makes me remember I need to wash my car.

Why the concern about dynamic vs. static IPs? 

What traffic is being passed on the perbcast port?  It's defaulted to 11080 and I thought it's just for getting *my* media and playlists onto your perbcast server.

[marko]

*marko is listening to: '1999-01-01 Track 4' by 'jimh' from the album 'james brown' [Duration: 3:47 | 209 kbps mp3 (5.7 MB) | rated ?/5 | first time played]

IlPadrino,
I figured that from here on...
 >>The configuration on a home network shouldn't be difficult.  You just need three things.<<

was a response to jgreen's post?

[JimH]

No trouble from here...  makes me remember I need to wash my car.

Thanks for testing it. 

Why the concern about dynamic vs. static IPs? 

What traffic is being passed on the perbcast port?  It's defaulted to 11080 and I thought it's just for getting *my* media and playlists onto your perbcast server.

The podcast itself is passed to the directory server along with your avatar links, etc, but the media remains on your PC.

Two reasons:
1.  It uses your bandwidth, not ours.
2.  It's your neck, not ours, if the media police come knocking.

Based on user feedback, we may modify what we're currently doing.

[KingSparta]

Jim Why Not Add Support For Something Like

http://www.whatismyip.com/

Where It would check the Users IP address Every 5 Mins Or So And If It Changes Then Allow It To Change In The Server.

My IP Address Is Fixed But most users don't have a fixed address, more so when it becomes AOL type services.

In the PerbCast Config Options

[X] Check My IP Address Every 5 Mins

[IlPadrino]

The podcast itself is passed to the directory server along with your avatar links, etc, but the media remains on your PC.

That's the part that had me confused, though the reasoning does make sense.  So here's what I see as the process:

1.  MC allows the user to create a podcast of a playlist (or playlists).
2.  This podcast (simply an RSS file with enclosures) is hosted on JRiver's webserver (www.perbcast.com), but the enclosures are URIs to media items on the user's own server.
3.  The users own "server" is a service run through MC that listens for something on the designated port (11180 is the default) and redirects the URI for the media item (gotten from the podcast enclosure) to the location of the item based on the MC library entry.

The significance of item 3 is that there is not a separate copy of the media item stored on my computer.  Right?

So...  my big question, which you already pointed out:  how do I keep the media police from knocking?  This is a difficult topic to discuss...  Oh, and how do I know there aren't security implications?

If my above understanding is correct, what does JRiver really offer other than a directory structure of sorts for finding podcasts?  I mean, the process of creating a podcast is simple.  Though it's nice not to have to copy the media files to my webserver.

The most basic rule of podcasting seems to be:  "Keep your podcast feed on a for-life URI" (i.e. buy a domain name).  www.perbcast.com breaks that in a serious way.

One other observation.  "Podcasters" are about *creating* media content, not just distributing it.  So I see your work in this area as something decidely different (and unique!).  You're focusing solely on distribution.  I still must confess I don't see the big picture.

And a question:  How is perbcasting any better than a MC plugin that simple creates the RSS directly on my own file server?  Other than the directory function and avoided duplication of media item (which could be fixed with virtual directories on the webserver), of course.

Bottom line:  this seems like good stuff and it's great to be involved in the innovation.

[KingSparta]

Also Maybe And Option:

[X] Do Not Show In PerbCast Listing

This way a user could setup PerbCast For There Own Use, And Create A URL For there Own Private Connection For When They Go To Work.

[IlPadrino]

Also Maybe And Option:

[X] Do Not Show In PerbCast Listing

This way a user could setup PerbCast For There Own Use, And Create A URL For there Own Private Connection For When They Go To Work.

Then wouldn't it be easier and better to just put the RSS on the user's server vice JRiver's?

[IlPadrino]

Jim Why Not Add Support For Something Like

http://www.whatismyip.com/

Where It would check the Users IP address Every 5 Mins Or So And If It Changes Then Allow It To Change In The Server.

My IP Address Is Fixed But most users don't have a fixed address, more so when it becomes AOL type services.

Anyone can use one of the free DNS service providers like http://www.no-ip.com/.

[JimH]

That's the part that had me confused, though the reasoning does make sense.  So here's what I see as the process:

1.  MC allows the user to create a podcast of a playlist (or playlists).
2.  This podcast (simply an RSS file with enclosures) is hosted on JRiver's webserver (www.perbcast.com), but the enclosures are URIs to media items on the user's own server.
3.  The users own "server" is a service run through MC that listens for something on the designated port (11180 is the default) and redirects the URI for the media item (gotten from the podcast enclosure) to the location of the item based on the MC library entry.

The significance of item 3 is that there is not a separate copy of the media item stored on my computer.  Right?

Right.  No copies are made.  Your description is accurate.

So...  my big question, which you already pointed out:  how do I keep the media police from knocking? 

Share material you own or have permission to.  Anything more is questionable, though not probably completely so.

...how do I know there aren't security implications?

The answer is the same for any server.  There can be no flaws in the coding.

If my above understanding is correct, what does JRiver really offer other than a directory structure of sorts for finding podcasts?  I mean, the process of creating a podcast is simple.  Though it's nice not to have to copy the media files to my webserver.

The publisher and server are built into the player.  You could do this other ways, but probably not so simply.

The most basic rule of podcasting seems to be:  "Keep your podcast feed on a for-life URI" (i.e. buy a domain name).  www.perbcast.com breaks that in a serious way.

I've never heard that rule.  

One other observation.  "Podcasters" are about *creating* media content, not just distributing it.  So I see your work in this area as something decidely different (and unique!).  You're focusing solely on distribution.  I still must confess I don't see the big picture.

Nor do I.  I do believe that podcasting and broadcasting will drift toward each other.

And a question:  How is perbcasting any better than a MC plugin that simple creates the RSS directly on my own file server? 

You'd end up writing what we've done, I think, and it's not so simple as it may seem.  You have to build the part that converts a playlist to a podcast, you'd have to upload it, and automatically build a page from it.  Possible, but there are a lot of little details to manage.  What happens if the playlist changes, etc.

Other than the directory function and avoided duplication of media item (which could be fixed with virtual directories on the webserver), of course.

Bottom line:  this seems like good stuff and it's great to be involved in the innovation.

Thanks for your thoughts and for your help.

[IlPadrino]

You have to build the part that converts a playlist to a podcast, you'd have to upload it, and automatically build a page from it.  Possible, but there are a lot of little details to manage.  What happens if the playlist changes, etc.

Scott_r already created the MC XML Export plugin.  Converting a playlist (MPL) to RSS is about as trivial a XSLT transformation as it gets.  Building the page is more about directory service - which perbcast does regardless where the RSS resides.  I see what you mean about checking the playlists for changes, but that's the same regardless where the RSS resides.

[IlPadrino]

Share material you own or have permission to.  Anything more is questionable, though not probably completely so.

What if I want to use media I own for my own use but exclude everyone else?

Regarding security implications and your response

The answer is the same for any server.  There can be no flaws in the coding.

IIS and Apache focus solely on a webserver application and they are new flaws in their coding found on a regular basis.  How can JRiver do better?

[JimH]

We'll probably add a way to share with a group and not share publicly.

I just went outside, made a quick little movie, and added it to my perbcast share.  It took about five minutes, including conversion to iPod format.  I can't think of a simpler way to share this with a friend.  It's in a form that can be downloaded to an iPod.

I could have a playlist called "baby pictures" and keep adding to it.  ( Except I don't have any babies anymore. )

[marko]

I see you can publish smartlists too. Interesting.

Any possibility of an "Updated" flag if files are added to an existing broadcast?

[JimH]

Any possibility of an "Updated" flag if files are added to an existing broadcast?

That's one thing podcasts are good at.  If the person broadcasting adds new files to a perbcast, the podcast is automatically updated.

I just added four more files to the James Brown playlist.  They will show up in your podcast if you've subscribed to it.  MC checks for new episodes periodically (check the setting in MC's options for how frequently it checks).

[marko]

intertesting playing around this evening.

going to stop now though as it would seem the server is dramatically slowing MC down. Moving from the server in the tree to playing now for example, is taking too long, I see each screen component slowly drawn, one after the other.

funny stuff in the log too. Is this normal?

03/18/06 19:37:32 - JRiver UPnP Server Version 1.0.4 starting...
03/18/06 19:37:32 - Perbcast Server started on port 11180
03/18/06 19:37:32 - Running
03/18/06 19:37:32 - Broadcasting !testcast
03/18/06 20:04:33 - Stopping Broadcast of !testcast
03/18/06 20:04:33 - Broadcasting !testcast
03/18/06 20:04:35 - Stopping Broadcast of !testcast
03/18/06 20:04:35 - Broadcasting !testcast
03/18/06 20:06:30 - Stopping Broadcast of !testcast
03/18/06 20:06:30 - Broadcasting !testcast
03/18/06 20:06:32 - Stopping Broadcast of !testcast
03/18/06 20:06:32 - Broadcasting !testcast
03/18/06 20:11:40 - Stopping Broadcast of !testcast
03/18/06 20:11:40 - Broadcasting !testcast
03/18/06 20:11:42 - Stopping Broadcast of !testcast
03/18/06 20:11:42 - Broadcasting !testcast
03/18/06 20:12:09 - Stopping Broadcast of !testcast
03/18/06 20:12:09 - Broadcasting !testcast
03/18/06 20:12:11 - Stopping Broadcast of !testcast
03/18/06 20:12:11 - Broadcasting !testcast
03/18/06 20:12:38 - Stopping Broadcast of !testcast
03/18/06 20:12:38 - Broadcasting !testcast
03/18/06 20:12:40 - Stopping Broadcast of !testcast
03/18/06 20:12:40 - Broadcasting !testcast

[jgreen]

JimH--
I think your idea is huge.  Pardon me for lurking while you guys invent+test this.  Questions come to mind:

1.  It seems like there are three distinct "states" of sharing here:  Mine, Yours, and Ours.  I think the idea of checkboxes so we can do secret/secure shares of our own music offsite is a really good one.  That has the added benefit of appeasing the media knee-jerks, who are probably going to be jerks about this.

2.  Let's say that I want to hear 1 track from your James Brown and another track from Marko's list.  Would there be a way to create a playlist on MY mc that would encorporate these tracks, the same way that Web Radio appears as a track?  The difference being that this would be a playlist of web media.

[danrien]

couple questions:

does the perbcast directory get automatically updated?  what are its rules for listing someone?  for example, should my address that the world sees be the address of the perbcast, or can it just be my homepage?

anyways, throwing those out there.

cool idea! im excited to see what happens.

and is it ok if i just share my favorites, or do u really think the big bad RIAA will come after me for streaming 800 songs for free?

[JimH]

I think the idea of checkboxes so we can do secret/secure shares of our own music offsite is a really good one. 

We expect to add something like this.

2.  Let's say that I want to hear 1 track from your James Brown and another track from Marko's list.  Would there be a way to create a playlist on MY mc that would encorporate these tracks, the same way that Web Radio appears as a track?  The difference being that this would be a playlist of web media.

That may be beyond the scope of what we're doing, but with a podcast, it is possible to download a file.  It might be possible to do what you're asing for.

[JimH]

does the perbcast directory get automatically updated?

The broadcast playlists listed on the directory are updated whenever you change them.

what are its rules for listing someone?  for example, should my address that the world sees be the address of the perbcast, or can it just be my homepage?

The IP address is the address of the PC that is sharing.

and is it ok if i just share my favorites, or do u really think the big bad RIAA will come after me for streaming 800 songs for free?

I don't know, but I don't advise it.  Sharing a handful of tracks for testing or for saying, "Hey, listen to this!" might be overlooked.

[IlPadrino]

2.  Let's say that I want to hear 1 track from your James Brown and another track from Marko's list.  Would there be a way to create a playlist on MY mc that would encorporate these tracks, the same way that Web Radio appears as a track?  The difference being that this would be a playlist of web media.

This should be easy...  considering you just want to merge a couple of RSS documents.  But currently there's no server-side (i.e. perbcast.com) method of even just looking at the individual items - that's all done once you subscribe to the feed in MC.  So I guess JRiver or a third-party could easily create a plugin that lets you mix-n-match in an elegant way - and perhaps create a new RSS feed for the results.

For now, you can choose any item that's in a MC podcast and send it to a playlist.  If it's not already downloaded, the filename will show as "http://...", so that's webmedia, right? 

Bandwidth is going to be a problem...  at least when someone first published a perbcast with GBs of media.  Updates will be easier...

[Bill Kearney]

Could you guys at least work on making it valid XML?  Prefixes requrie namespaces, among other things, along with encoding contents of elements and attributes. 

[lOth]

Sharing a handful of tracks for testing or for saying, "Hey, listen to this!" might be overlooked.

I understand and share the concern here.

I think the idea of checkboxes so we can do secret/secure shares of our own music offsite is a really good one.

Another idea here. While it wouldn't solve the problem, would an option to play only 30 sec. or so of each song found in a 'sensitive' playlist make it any better? The choice of checking that option or not would be left to the user.

I think the copyright issue is one more reason for letting people host the links to their own perbcasts. Maybe I'm completely wrong about this but is JRiver not liable at all for just hosting the links?

[JimH]

Could you guys at least work on making it valid XML?  Prefixes requrie namespaces, among other things, along with encoding contents of elements and attributes. 

OK.  We'll take a closer look.  Thanks for reporting it.

[JimH]

... would an option to play only 30 sec. or so of each song found in a 'sensitive' playlist make it any better? The choice of checking that option or not would be left to the user.

That's a very good suggestion.  Thanks.

I think the copyright issue is one more reason for letting people host the links to their own perbcasts. Maybe I'm completely wrong about this but is JRiver not liable at all for just hosting the links?

If we're honestly trying to prevent piracy, I think we're OK.

[Gene]

Could you guys at least work on making it valid XML?  Prefixes requrie namespaces, among other things, along with encoding contents of elements and attributes. 

Sorry.   Tonite's build is valid XML.   We needed to bind the PerbCast attribute prefix to www.PerbCast.com. Done now.

[KingSparta]

I sometimes close out MC not thinking that it will also close Perbcast

Maybe a check box or something in the server if you want to keep the server running if you close out MC

I am guessing, clicking on media server keeps it running in the notify window.

is perbcasting going to replace media center?

[JimH]

I sometimes close out MC not thinking that it will also close Perbcast

Maybe a check box or something in the server if you want to keep the server running if you close out MC

I am guessing, clicking on media server keeps it running in the notify window.

is perbcasting going to replace media center?

Just start Media Server and it will take care of running all your servers.  Then you can close MC.  A very small foot-print version of MC will continue to run in the background.

[KingSparta]

Just start Media Server and it will take care of running all your servers.  Then you can close MC.  A very small foot-print version of MC will continue to run in the background.

Yeah, I would have never had figured that out if I did not see your earlyer post about that.

[Quisp]

I'm noticing that a playlist that I "broadcast" is not presented in the same order when subscribed. How do you determine the order of tracks?

Also, it would be great if you could add a description of the broadcast when activating a playlist for broadcasting.

EDIT: Other requests...

This is sort of like Shoutcast (kind of...) and for that service there is the ability to limit the number of connections. If this is to remain public, we'll need the same thing as I could see a popular podcast sucking up all available bandwidth if there aren't some sort of restrictions.

A also would like to either publish to my own server, or make my podcast non-public or accessible only through a username / password that I can give out. For one thing, I don't need any "sexual predators" looking at images of my kids that I've made available to my parents, and I don't need the RIAA knocking at my door because I'm helping them sell music by turning my friends on to new music I've purchased. Username / Password seems like it would be the easiest and is already supported as far as podcasts go.

As King suggested it would also make sense to have a checkbox that determined whether a podcast even showed up on the MC server.

[Matt]

Also, it would be great if you could add a description of the broadcast when activating a playlist for broadcasting.

The playlist notes are used.  When you view a playlist in MC, type in the box at the top of the screen that says "Click here to add notes"

[Quisp]

The playlist notes are used.  When you view a playlist in MC, type in the box at the top of the screen that says "Click here to add notes"

Cool, missed that completely, but makes perfect sense.

[JimH]

I'm noticing that a playlist that I "broadcast" is not presented in the same order when subscribed. How do you determine the order of tracks?

It's probably our bug.

This is sort of like Shoutcast (kind of...) and for that service there is the ability to limit the number of connections. If this is to remain public, we'll need the same thing as I could see a popular podcast sucking up all available bandwidth if there aren't some sort of restrictions.

We're aware of this and have a plan.  Limiting connections would be possible.

I also would like to either publish to my own server, or make my podcast non-public or accessible only through a username / password that I can give out.

That's on our list.

Thanks for trying it out.  Keep the ideas coming.

[micahmj11]

I think this ability to broadcast podcasts directly from MC is very exciting.  I know it is stil in an early stage, but it works very well already, in a very simple way.  I look forward to seeing this feature develop. 

I have a few requests.  As others have already mentioned, it would be great to also be able to publish to my own server.  Also, gathering some statistics about subscriptions to my podcasts would be very useful.  As someone subscribes and downloads my content, a log could be made in the perbcast screen in MC showing information like what was uploaded, the date, time, and ip address of the subscriber.  We could track bandwidth usage, and popularity of different content.

Micah

 

[KingSparta]

I have not tested this yet (I am Converting Files Right Now)

But if you load up a library, and start a Perbcast

then you wanted to work on files in another library.

I am thinking Perbcast will then stop due to in the other library that play list is not present.

[JimH]

That's probably correct.  You could set up a new Windows user if you wanted to always broadcast.

[John Gateley]

The server (finally) is smart about clients that disappear. If you kill your Media Center without cleanly stopping the PerbCast server, it will disappear from the list of running servers about 5 minutes later...

j

[KingSparta]

just an idea

1. export the play list to the running server
2. warn the user when they go to change libraries "you currently have PerBCast Running, do you wish to stop it?" yes will load the new play list, no will stop the server and load the new play list.

in #2 at least it will warn the user if he/she forgets.

[Quisp]

I don't know where we should be mentioning bugs for the Perbcasting, here or in the regular thread?

Anyway...

1. Playlists are not being published in the same sort order as the playlist.
2. If you have double quotes in the playlist title, you'll get an xml error when you try to subscribe to it. Probably does the same thing for single quotes.

[John Gateley]

If you are doing PerbCasting, please restart your server. I fixed a bug on our side (not in Media Center, in the directory page).

j

[marko]

I changed my port number as I've been having problems, and I wondered if they were maybe caused by listening on port 11180 and trying to access broadcasts on that port at the same time. Is that likely?

anyway, I set the port to 11190, and the output from the server reads:

03/24/06 08:56:01 - There is a problem with accessing your PerbCast content.
The following text is what is returned when trying to access:
 An Error Occurred
500 Can't connect to xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:11180 (connect: Invalid argument)

Note the incorrect port number in the error message.

[KingSparta]

I changed my port number as I've been having problems, and I wondered if they were maybe caused by listening on port 11180 and trying to access broadcasts on that port at the same time. Is that likely?

anyway, I set the port to 11190, and the output from the server reads:

03/24/06 08:56:01 - There is a problem with accessing your PerbCast content.
The following text is what is returned when trying to access:
 An Error Occurred
500 Can't connect to xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:11180 (connect: Invalid argument)

Note the incorrect port number in the error message.

Did you stop the server first before you changed the port?