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[lalittle]

I tried MC12 on a different system today.  I was scrolling through some of the lists in Theater View and I noticed that after I stopped scrolling, the rows would keep "twitching" for a few seconds.  It's as if the "boxes" were trying to resize to the correct dimemsions, and they'd take several "tries" to finally get it right.  Once they settled, they stayed motionless, but when I scrolled the list again, they once again twitched when I stopped scrolling.

This was not an issue with MC11, and I have not seen this on my other systems.  I cannot be sure, however, whether or not I've looked at Theater View on the other systems with one of the latest builds of MC12 -- i.e. if this issue started in one of the last couple builds, it may in fact be happening on my other systems as well. but I just haven't seen it yet.

Note that this ONLY happens when scrolling through a list that is longer than one page -- i.e. when the list itself has to scroll.  It does NOT happen when advancing to the next sub-list (or back.)  It only happens when the "scroll animation" takes place, NOT when the "new sub-list" animation happens.

I'm using a Geforce FX5200 on this system, along with the latest Nvidia drivers (I had earlier drivers that did the same thing, so I updated them.)

Thanks for any help with this,

Larry

[raym]

Hi Larry. Have you checked the version of directX you're running on this system? I havn't seen the problem you've described but I had some strange refresh type issues on one machine which didn't go away until I installed the latest version of directX.

[lalittle]

Hi Larry. Have you checked the version of directX you're running on this system? I havn't seen the problem you've described but I had some strange refresh type issues on one machine which didn't go away until I installed the latest version of directX.

That was a good idea, but I confirmed that I am using the very latest version of DirectX.  I tried another system, and while the words in the list didn't "twitch" like they do on this system, the lines forming the "boxes" around the words in the main list continue to "adjust" for a little while after I stop scrolling.  I think that this is related to the issue I'm seeing on this system because on this system, I ALSO see the lines "adjust" after I stop scrolling.  It's just that on this system, the words wiggle back and forth as well (i.e. "twitch.")

Needless to say, it's REALLY annoying to watch this happen, and it takes several seconds for it to stop.

Thanks again for any help with this,

Larry

[lalittle]

Does anyone have any further feedback on this?  This system is connected to the house sound system, and is therefore the one that I control via the TV in the living room.  I just updated this system to MC12 from MC11, and this problem started.  This was never an issue with MC11.

It's incredibly annoying to have to watch the words and boxes "twitch" every time I scroll a list that is larger than one screen.  Once again, this does NOT happen if I switch menus -- it ONLY happens when SCROLLING a list that is larger than a single page.  This issue has something to do with the animation when scrolling the list, where the items shrink/grow as they enter/leave the list.

I'd really appreciate any help with this since I'm trying to convince my parents to use this system, and it's difficult to do this when there is such a "visible" bug with Theater View.

Larry

[lalittle]

Does anybody have any feedback on this?  It's REALLY irritating, and it's definitely an MC12 problem because I JUST upgraded this system from MC11, where Theater View had been working fine earlier that day.

Thanks,

Larry

[JimH]

MC12 uses 3d functions.  It could be a video card driver problem. 

[glynor]

This was not an issue with MC11, and I have not seen this on my other systems.
...
I'm using a Geforce FX5200 on this system, along with the latest Nvidia drivers (I had earlier drivers that did the same thing, so I updated them.)

Gotta love the GeForce FX 5x series....

I'd assume that your other systems (the ones that work fine) are not using a GeForce FX 5x series card.  I found a lot of threads in a brief search (google geforce fx 5200 problems) reporting trouble with the 5200 and recent drivers.  nVidia is unfortunately somewhat notorious for this, and with all the problems they had with the FX 5x line (the NV30 GPU the line was based on was widely considered to be a huge failure for nVidia of epic proportions)... 

Most of the threads discuss display corruption, laggy screen updates, and flickering images with recent drivers (52.x and newer).  Most recommend using only the 44.03 detonator drivers from nVidia with the FX 5200 series cards, as they are considered to be the best and most stable with the NV30 lineage.

The biggest problem is really that nVidia, as soon as they moved onto the 6x series cards, did everything in their corporate power to forget that the NV30 even ever existed!

You can download the 44.03 drivers from the nVidia Driver Archive pages.  Here's the one for WindowsXP/2000.

[lalittle]

Thanks Glynor -- I'll give it a try.

Larry

[glynor]

Speaking of nVidia.... They certainly have something that doesn't look to be a failure on their hands.

Mmmmmm... Parallelism.

ATI/AMD better put something pretty amazing out with the R600 (or I might have to reform my ATI-fanboyism a bit).

[lalittle]

On further investigation, the issue is related to the resolution I select for the full screen display in the MC options.  Depending on which resolution I choose, the problem is either diminished, or totally eliminated.  I believe that it was eliminated, for example, when I selected 1366x768.  Unfortunately, the only resolutions that eliminated the problem were ones where the image did not properly fit on the TV screen I'm using for my Theater View TV video output.  The Video needs to be 1024 x 768 to fit on the TV properly, and this resolution has this problem to a large degree.

I understand that this issue could still be related to the Graphics card, but I'm resistant to "blame" the graphics card when MC11.1 did NOT have this issue on the exact same system.  It seems like the problem lies with MC12.

Thanks again for helping out with this,

Larry

PS.  I haven't tried the earlier drivers yet, but I'm very hesitant to try such old drivers given that I need other apps to work on this system, and there have bee a lot of fixes in Nvidia drivers since those drivers came out.

[Uwe]

I know, i posted this before. This 3d viz-thing is the only reason why i can't use MC12 at my Home Audio system any more. It seems to be very sensitive concerning DirectX, Device Drivers, Hardware etc. Is it too complicated to make it switchable?

Uwe

[glynor]

I understand that this issue could still be related to the Graphics card, but I'm resistant to "blame" the graphics card when MC11.1 did NOT have this issue on the exact same system.  It seems like the problem lies with MC12.

MC's fault?  Sort of yes, and sort of no.  MC12's Theater View is quite different from MC11's Theater View, despite the fact that they look similar.  In MC12, it's rendered in Direct3D, rather than regular 2D, so it relies entirely on your video card's drivers and DirectX in order to display the onscreen elements.  Just like a full-screen, D3D video game.

If you use other D3D apps on that system at those resolutions, you'll probably see similar types of display errors as well.  D3D is to 3D graphics what DirectSound is to audio output.  It's a layer that Microsoft put between the video card and the software, so that programmers didn't have to design separate software "paths" for each hardware video card that they wanted their games to work with.  OpenGL and Glide were competing, but very similar, systems (Glide is basically gone and OpenGL is only used by a few software vendors anymore).

The problem very likely lies in your card's implementation of Direct3D (more specifically your card's drivers).

PS.  I haven't tried the earlier drivers yet, but I'm very hesitant to try such old drivers given that I need other apps to work on this system, and there have bee a lot of fixes in Nvidia drivers since those drivers came out.

I can certainly understand your hesitation.  All I can say is that those fixes you refer to, do not apply (in all likelyhood) to your video card.  You can track down and check the individual change logs, but I sincerely doubt they've been working on the FX line for quite a few years now.  Those new ForceWare drivers are nVidia's only Graphic drivers, so the same software powers their newest fanciest GeForce 8800 GTX video card (which is a DirectX 10 behemoth with an architecture 4 generations, and a revolution in design, past your FX 5200).  Is it surprising that when they move on so far removed from the design of your card, and keep "fixing" things for the newer generations, that they would incidentally break something on an entry-level, cheapo card they produced 4 years ago?

Unified drivers are convenient.  You don't have to hunt down versions specific to your piece of hardware.  They do present some problems to hardware vendors though.  At some point you have to drop support for older hardware, or that code starts holding you back.  From everything I've read, nVidia "should have" just officially dropped support for the FX 5xxx line before they brought out ForceWare 52.xx...

I'd give it a shot.  Make sure to uninstall what you have completely first (possibly use Driver Cleaner).  Then install the older version.  If the problem's solved, and you don't SEE any other problems (do you do a bunch of 3D gaming because that's what most of the newer fixes would be for anyway?), then you're fine.  If you do have problems, you can always re-upgrade to the new ones (or slowly try subsequent newer drivers until you find a set that works well).

[lalittle]

MC's fault?  Sort of yes, and sort of no.  MC12's Theater View is quite different from MC11's Theater View, despite the fact that they look similar.  In MC12, it's rendered in Direct3D, rather than regular 2D, so it relies entirely on your video card's drivers and DirectX in order to display the onscreen elements.  Just like a full-screen, D3D video game.

I'm pretty sure that it IS an MC12 problem, however, given that I can see some "degree" of this issue on EVERY system I test.  I've tried 4 different sytsems now, with 3 different graphics cards.  They're all nvidia cards, but if MC12 doesn't work with 3 different nvidia cards (GF FX5200, GF 4600Ti, and GF 6800GT) and numerous different driver versions, I'd say it points to MC12 and not the card.  It may be related to nvidia drivers, but I thinks it's MC12 implementation of it's D3D support that is actually causing the problem.

I'd assume that your other systems (the ones that work fine) are not using a GeForce FX 5x series card.

No -- they ALL do it to some extent depending on the settings, so none of them "works fine" in this regard.  It's just that the ones that do it the least do it "little enough" that it isn't that noticeable unless I actually look for it.

I notice that the problem is "least" noticeable on the GF6800's.  Rather than the words "twitching," the boxes do a very small "re-adjust" after the list scrolls.  This does NOT happen if the Theater View screen matches the desktop resolution of 1280 x 1024.  When I have the full screen res set to 1024 x 768, however, (the highest res that can be used with the TV out signal) I can see some of the boxes do a slight twitch or two a few seconds after I scroll the list.

Once again, it's only when the list SCROLLS that this happens.  When I "change" a list, this issue does NOT happen.

I believe that MC12 is "doing" something to resize the text/boxes after the list is scrolled, and that this is causing the problem I'm seeing, which is dependant on 1)  the size of the "full screen" display as set in MC, and 2) the type of graphics card and drivers.  The severity of the problem changes from system to system, but if I use the right settings, I can always get it to happen to SOME extent.

Thanks again for any help with this, which is rather irritating given that everything worked fine with MC11.  It's frustrating to UPgrade and have some things work worse than before.

Larry

[JimH]

I'm pretty sure that it IS an MC12 problem, however, given that I can see some "degree" of this issue on EVERY system I test.  I've tried 4 different sytsems now, with 3 different graphics cards.  They're all nvidia cards, but if MC12 doesn't work with 3 different nvidia cards (GF FX5200, GF 4600Ti, and GF 6800GT) and numerous different driver versions, I'd say it points to MC12 and not the card. 

It could be our problem, but I think you've also just proven that it could be a driver problem.

[JimH]

This 3d viz-thing is the only reason i can't use MC12 at my Home Audio system any more.  ...  Is it too complicated to make it switchable?

It is.  An inexpensive newer graphic card might fix your issue.

[glynor]

No -- they ALL do it to some extent depending on the settings, so none of them "works fine" in this regard.  It's just that the ones that do it the least do it "little enough" that it isn't that noticeable unless I actually look for it.

Ok.  I didn't realize from your earlier posts that it was happening with other GeForce cards as well (and I don't know that you made it clear that it only happened when you manually changed the resolution to 1024x768 as well).

I don't have access to any other nVidia cards to test, but I did test it pretty darn well with my 7800GTX card and could not reproduce it at all (even squinting my eyes and praying for it to twitter a tiny bit after I scrolled didn't help).

The only thing about your described setup I couldn't test was checking it on a TV.  That could be the source of your problem though!  NTSC Standard-Def television displays are interlaced, which means that of it's 59.94 frames per second the tv only "draws" half the lines for each one of those almost-60 frames.  It draws the odd numbered lines, and then the even numbered lines on the next "pass".  With regular TV content, this "blurs" together and creates the illusion of the high near-60 FPS framerate (but it only "costs" half as much in hardware to implement).  The major drawback of this method is that if you are looking at perfectly still images, but ones where the even frames don't perfectly match the odd frames, it can cause the still image to "pulse" or "vibrate" because of the tiny differences between the even and odd line "alignment".

Computer displays are progressive.  This means that if your computer display is running at 60 FPS, it actually draws the full display (every line from top to bottom) 60 times per second.  This can lead to problems if the items on screen aren't perfectly still (or are originally interlaced), causing the "vibrating" effect.  In order to compensate for this, most modern video cards include "de-interlacing" capabilities built into the cards, which works but with varying effectiveness depending on the particular implementation.  Generally (with the possible exception of the very-brand-new-and-expensive 8800 GTX which I haven't seen video-quality focused reviews of yet), ATI's de-interlacing hardware and software has been viewed as vastly superior to nVidias (at least since they released the Theater 200 chip).

To see this difference clearly illustrated, download this image to your computer and view it on your computer monitor and then on a TV display.  This is obviously an exaggerated example, but it illustrates the point well.  What looks perfectly "still" on a progressive display doesn't always stay still on an interlaced display.  This is the biggest drawback to interlacing, and is why the system was abandoned now that the hardware can easily display 720x480 images at full resolution at 60 FPS (remember, the NTSC TV standard was designed in the 1940's and 1950's).

What I'm wondering is this...

Can you see the same effect when it's displayed on a computer monitor, or only when it's on the TV?  If it shows up only on the TV display, then I'd guess two things:

1. The buttons that are vibrating are not held perfectly still in MC.  They might "jiggle" by as little as 1 pixel, but when viewing it at lower resolutions on an interlaced display this would be enough to cause a distracting effect.  This would be MC's problem, and perhaps they can take a look at it.

2. The nVidia graphic cards are trying to de-interlace the image with varying success levels.  You may be able to improve this by experimenting with the  "Custom Timings" options in the ForceWare control panel.  Open the nVidia Control Panel, and look under the Display control panel category (you must be in "Advanced View" to see the custom timings options).  You may also want to tweak the settings under Video & Television --> Adjust video color settings.  There are options in there for edge enhancement.

If you can see the issue with a GeForce 6800 (which is certainly a high-quality modern video card), then there needs to be a way to address it.  I should say though... I see no similar issues on my home systems with ATI video cards connected to regular TVs.  As I also mentioned though, ATI has what has been tested as clearly superior deinterlacing capabilities built into their cards.

[glynor]

I should also note.  If you can see the vibrating occur even when viewing it on your computer monitor, then it is being caused by something else entirely.  I'm not sure what would be causing it then, but I don't see it here (even on an nVidia card)!

[lalittle]

Ok.  I didn't realize from your earlier posts that it was happening with other GeForce cards as well (and I don't know that you made it clear that it only happened when you manually changed the resolution to 1024x768 as well).

That was my fault -- I hadn't tested it as fully at the time because I didn't have immediate access to all the systems at that time.

As far as switching to 1024x768, this isn't "necessarily" needed -- it depends on the specific card, and there could be OTHER resolutions that ALSO cause the issue.  I've randomly tested several resolutions on one of the systems (the one with the FX5200) and found that the issue varied greatly from one res to the next.

The only thing about your described setup I couldn't test was checking it on a TV.

Can you see the same effect when it's displayed on a computer monitor, or only when it's on the TV?  If it shows up only on the TV display, then I'd guess two things:

While I do use Theater View for viewing MC on a TV monitor, ALL of my tests have been on computer monitors.  I did verify that I could see the problem on the TV, but once I confimed this, I did all the testing on the computer monitor since I could see the exact same issue there.  This issue therefore has nothing to do with the TV output, or any interlaced vs progressive signal issues.

1. The buttons that are vibrating are not held perfectly still in MC.  They might "jiggle" by as little as 1 pixel, but when viewing it at lower resolutions on an interlaced display this would be enough to cause a distracting effect.

The problem only lasts a few seconds and then STOPS -- i.e. it does not keep going.  I scroll such that the scrolling animation happens (i.e. I scroll to the next item below the bottom of the screen or above the top, which causes the list of items to shift one place.)  The twitching happens for a few seconds and then stops.  On the FX5200, the words themselves twitch, but on the 6800, only the seams between the boxes do it.

Are you POSITIVE that you are following all the conditions, and that you see ZERO movement in the lines between the boxes after the scroll animation?  Here are the parameters:

1. Set "Options > Playback > Display settings" to display full screen view at 1024 x 768.

2. Switch to Theater View.

3. Select a Genre or album that has enough items that they will NOT all fit on the screen at the same time.

4. Scroll to the bottom of the visible list, then scroll another item such that the scroll "animation" happens (where one item "grows" into view, and another item "shrinks" out of view.)

5. Immediately after the animation happens, keep your eyes on the general center area of the list and just watch for a few seconds.  See if you can see ANY movement in the boxes around the items in the list, or in the words themselves.  As I said, on my 6800 systems it's a subtle movement where the lines between the boxes seem to "adjust" to their final positions, and you most likely wouldn't notice it unless you were specifically looking for it.

NOTE ALSO that on my 6800, there is a pause BEFORE the movement happens -- i.e. the scroll animaiton happens, then everything is motionless for a second or so, THEN there is a slight change to several of the lines in between the items in the list.

On the FX5200, both the lines between the items AND the words themselves twitch and take a few seconds to "settle."  Based on the "look" of the behavior in these various tests, however, I'm pretty convinced that it's all the same issue.

Thanks for all the feedback on this,

Larry

[lalittle]

It could be our problem, but I think you've also just proven that it could be a driver problem.

But in order for it to be a driver problem, it would mean that numerous driver versions over the past few YEARS have ALL had this problem, which seems unlikely.  If you consider all the patterns in the behavior, it seems more "likely" that this is an issue with the way MC12 scrolls the items in the list.  It's very interesting, for example, that NONE of the OTHER animations in MC12 (i.e. changing from one list to another, for example) causes this issue.  It's ONLY the "scroll" animation that does this.

Thanks again for the feedback,

Larry

[lalittle]

I should also note.  If you can see the vibrating occur even when viewing it on your computer monitor, then it is being caused by something else entirely.  I'm not sure what would be causing it then, but I don't see it here (even on an nVidia card)!

glynor,

Did you get a chance to try the specific steps I outlined a couple posts back?  I'm really curious to hear if you can see ANY sign of what I'm seeing here after setting things up the same way.  Note that with my 6800's, it's a subtle issue.  The lines in between the rows change slightly after the scroll takes place -- you have to keep your eyes on them to see it.  It wouldn't be so bad if the issue was only this bad.  The PROBLEM is that on the OTHER system, the issue is VASTLY worse.  I believe, however, that these are all symptoms of the same overall issue.

Thanks,

Larry

[skeeterfood]

On an old Radeon 9100 I don't see anything strange if I'm in list mode, but in thumbnail mode (3 rows) I see a single 2-3 pixel shift up of the top 2 rows of thumbnails a second, or so, after the scroll seems complete.

This happens in both 1024x768 and the 1280x1024 I normally run at.

-John

[lalittle]

On an old Radeon 9100 I don't see anything strange if I'm in list mode, but in thumbnail mode (3 rows) I see a single 2-3 pixel shift up of the top 2 rows of thumbnails a second, or so, after the scroll seems complete.

This happens in both 1024x768 and the 1280x1024 I normally run at.

-John

Thanks for the report John.

I believe that you're seeing the issue I'm talking about, only I can actually see it in with some of the lines between the items in the "list" view.  A second or so AFTER the scroll, the are some changes to the lines between the rows.  Once again, the effect is FAR more pronounced on the FX5200, but I believe that this is all due to the same issue, which is some sort of extra processing of the image that takes a few seconds to complete.  Note also that it is ONLY apparent after the "scroll" animation.  Other animations, such as changing menus, do not cause this issue.

Thanks again,

Larry

[lalittle]

This continues with build 118.  I would describe it as a slight "redraw" that takes place AFTER a list is scrolled such that one row scrolls off the screen and another scrolls on.  This "redraw" seems to take MC a few "tries" to get right.  The effect does not happen in all resolutions, but on this system, which is set to display at 1280 x 1024 normally and has the "full screen" set to 1024 x 768 in the MC options, I can see slight changes in the white lines between the rows after I scroll.  This does NOT happen when openning/closing a list -- everything looks fine when a "new" list comes up on screen.  It's only the SCROLLING that makes this happen.

On my other system (the one I actually USE Theater View on) the effect is REALLY pronouced, with both the lines AND the words themselves twitching for a few seconds after a scroll animation.

I'd really appreciate any feedback on this because I actually use Theater View, and this is really annoying to see all the time.   If others could look for this issue using the procedure I outlined above (the 5 steps) -- I'd really appreciate it.  If a few more people respond here, there is a MUCH better chance that this will be fixed.

Thanks,

Larry

[lalittle]

Just to add to this, I've noticed that when using Pg Up and Pg Down to move through a list, this issue does NOT happen.  Once again, it ONLY happens when the "scroll" animation happens.

Also, it seems like the "twitch" is caused by MC SLIGHTLY repositioning the lines and/or words in the list.  After this "reposition," I can see some overlap in the lines between the text items in the list (i.e. the "boxes" around the text.)  This happens a few seconds AFTER the scroll takes place.

Thanks again for any feeback on this,

Larry

[glynor]

Larry, I've still not seen this, but I'm gonna look again tonight.

[lalittle]

Larry, I've still not seen this, but I'm gonna look again tonight.

Thanks glynor.  Take a look at the "5 steps" outlined a few posts above this, and pay particularly close attention for ANY changes a second or so AFTER the SCROLL animation stops.

Thanks,

Larry

[lalittle]

I just saw this in the new build:

4. Changed: Revised Theater View rubber-banding of list items to snap items to their final location so there won't be a final shift of one pixel a few seconds later.

I'm downloading the new build right now, and it "sounds" like this may fix the issue I'm describing in this thread (fingers crossed.)  I'll report back when I try it.

UPDATE:  I just tried this, and it DID fixed the issue I was seeing on THIS system.  I won't have a chance to try it on the system that had a BIG problem with this issue until later, but I'm hopeful that it will be fixed on that system as well.

Thanks,

Larry

[lalittle]

Bad News.  The problem with the text twitching was NOT solved by this update.  On top of this, on my system with a Geforce Ti4600, when I set the resolution of the full screen display to 1024x768x32, the text looks REALLY bad -- it's clipped in odd ways and has little "blocks" all over it on certain words.  If I look real closely, I can also see some sort of little "dots" above the lines.

I think it may be important to note that the "poor text" issue does not seem to be present while the text is moving -- it's only after it STOPS moving that the degradation takes place.  MC appears to be doing something AFTER the text moves that is causing this issue.  I tried both older and and the latest drivers, and the behavior is exactly the same.  The only system where there is NOT a problem seems to be on the Geforce 6800 systems, but a 4600 SHOULD be new enough that it should work.  None of my other programs have a problem like this with this card.

I have a feeling that the corrupted text may be related to the issue with the text "twitching" on the other system after the scroll movement.  In both cases, a slight change takes place AFTER the scroll is complete.

I can provide pictures of the blocky text if necessary -- just tell me where to email or upload them.

Thanks for any help with this,

Larry

[lalittle]

Please note that it's the actual list TEXT that is twitching after the scroll animation on the system that still has this issue.  The "blocky" text is a different (but "possibly" related) issue.

Larry

[lalittle]

Both issues remain, i.e.

The Theater View issues with certain graphics cards remain when the full screen display is set to 1024x768:

1) The "twitching" of the text with a Geforce FX5200 when the list scrolls.

2) "Blocky" text with a Geforce 6800.  Note that with this issue, I've noticed a very interesting pattern, which is that the further the text goes to the right with any item in the list, the worse the blockiness gets.  In other words, with my main "Audio" list contains the group "Recent Imports - Last 200 Tracks."  The blockiness starts to look really bad with the word "Last," and seems to get worse on the text further to the right.

Thanks again for any help with this,

Larry

[glynor]

Larry -

I've tested this as thoroughly as I possibly can with all three of my systems and I can't see the issue at all on any of them.  I'm going to try a little later on a fourth system with a less-powerful ATI-based card (an AIW 9600XT), but so far I've squinted and stared and inspected as best I could, trying to reproduce it via the exact method you described, all to no avail.

A few questions...

1.  You said the full screen display is set to 1024x768.  I assume by this you mean that it's set in MC's display settings panel under Full Screen --> Resolution.  What specifically is this set to on the system that shows the issue?  I assume you're using 32bit color, correct?

2. What is the desktop resolution on that machine set to?  If that's the resolution that works on the TV display, why isn't the desktop resolution set to 1024x768 and MC set to Desktop Resolution (which really works best)?  Even if you have a separate monitor (not the TV) that you don't want to keep at 1024x768, my systems at least all provide the option to set a different resolution for the TV display than the Monitor display.  Are you using this?  Can you describe your setup in more detail?

3. I have no idea if it matters, but what is MC's Full Screen --> Monitor setting set to?

4. Which "monitor" (primary vs. secondary) is the TV display set to?  Most older video cards only accelerate 3D effects on the primary monitor, and render any effects needed on the secondary monitor in software (which for performance reasons is at vastly reduced quality).  Does the situation change if you set the TV to be your primary monitor?

[lalittle]

I've tested this as thoroughly as I possibly can with all three of my systems and I can't see the issue at all on any of them.

Thanks so much for taking the time to test this.  It appears that MC is incredibly sensitive to the graphics card being use -- much more so that any other app I've seen. 

A few questions...

1.  You said the full screen display is set to 1024x768.  I assume by this you mean that it's set in MC's display settings panel under Full Screen --> Resolution.  What specifically is this set to on the system that shows the issue?  I assume you're using 32bit color, correct?

The specific location I'm referring to is Options > Playback > Display Settings > Full Screen > Resolution.  Yes -- I'm using 32 bit color (1024x768x32), but this doesn't make any difference, so I didn't specify it.

2. What is the desktop resolution on that machine set to?

I tried different settings, but the system that twitches is set to 1024x768 natively, and on this system I've tried both "desktop resolution" AND "1024x768" for the Full Screen setting.

If that's the resolution that works on the TV display, why isn't the desktop resolution set to 1024x768 and MC set to Desktop Resolution (which really works best)?

Depending on which setup I'm talking about, I typcially prefer a resolution of 1280x1024 for my computer desktop.  On my main "Theater View" desktop, however, I use 1024x768 natively. (see above)

Even if you have a separate monitor (not the TV) that you don't want to keep at 1024x768, my systems at least all provide the option to set a different resolution for the TV display than the Monitor display.  Are you using this?  Can you describe your setup in more detail?

In order to get the behavior I require on the TV (automatic full screen display toggling of the TV for apps that support this, etc.), I have to set the TV monitor to "clone" mode.  The TV is set to ALWAYS display 1024x768.  The problem is that when the desktop is set to a higher resolution, I only see a "1024x768" size portion of the image, meaning I don't see the whole screen at once.  In order to see the full Theater View screen, I have to have MC resize it's full screen dispaly to 1024x768.  This way, when I switch to Theater View, the screen fits the TV monitor.

3. I have no idea if it matters, but what is MC's Full Screen --> Monitor setting set to?

I've tried playing with this as well, but generally it's set to "Nearest Monitor."

4. Which "monitor" (primary vs. secondary) is the TV display set to?

Secondary, which is necessary in order to have the desktop appear normally on the computer's monitor.

Most older video cards only accelerate 3D effects on the primary monitor, and render any effects needed on the secondary monitor in software (which for performance reasons is at vastly reduced quality).  Does the situation change if you set the TV to be your primary monitor?

None of my cards work this way, and when in clone mode, since it's the same image, this really isn't an issue since the accelerated 3D image is copied to both monitors (i.e. "cloned.")  None of the problems I'm having have been limited to only the TV monitor -- they're all visible on the computer monitor as well.

Thanks again,

Larry

[JimH]

Thanks so much for taking the time to test this.  It appears that MC is incredibly sensitive to the graphics card being use -- much more so that any other app I've seen. 

That may be another way of saying graphics card driver bugs surface when using MC but don't using other apps.

We're still paying attention to this, but until it's resolved, you can't say where the problem lies.

[lalittle]

That may be another way of saying graphics card driver bugs surface when using MC but don't using other apps.

We're still paying attention to this, but until it's resolved, you can't say where the problem lies.

True -- I'm just frustrated that I can't figure out where the issue lies.  I was going to try switching the Theater View system to an extra graphics card I have here, but it's a Geforce Ti4600, which is displaying the "blocky text" issue on another system, so I'd be replacing one problem for another.  In other words, it appears I'm "stuck" with this issue until JR figures out what's causing it.

Thanks again for any further help with this,

Larry

[glynor]

In order to get the behavior I require on the TV (automatic full screen display toggling of the TV for apps that support this, etc.), I have to set the TV monitor to "clone" mode.  The TV is set to ALWAYS display 1024x768.  The problem is that when the desktop is set to a higher resolution, I only see a "1024x768" size portion of the image, meaning I don't see the whole screen at once.  In order to see the full Theater View screen, I have to have MC resize it's full screen dispaly to 1024x768.  This way, when I switch to Theater View, the screen fits the TV monitor.

This is common and expected.  If you set the resolution to a higher resolution than the display supports, then the "desktop area" will be bigger than the available screen area.  That's because the pixel sizes are fixed.  The maximum number of pixels your video card can send out over the Composite/S-Video port is 786,432 (1024 * 768).  That doesn't change.  If you increase the resolution to 1280 x 1024 (which is what I too use on my desktop machines), then it can only display a portion of the 1,310,720 pixels that make up the full "desktop".

Secondary, which is necessary in order to have the desktop appear normally on the computer's monitor.

None of my cards work this way, and when in clone mode, since it's the same image, this really isn't an issue since the accelerated 3D image is copied to both monitors (i.e. "cloned.")  None of the problems I'm having have been limited to only the TV monitor -- they're all visible on the computer monitor as well.

This stuff here could actually be getting to the crux of the issue.  Even though it appears to be behaving the same way on both monitors, it could be lack of 3D acceleration (or even just doing it poorly).  When you assume that the image is simply "cloned" to the secondary display (in your case the TV), without additional GPU resources being required, this isn't exactly true in some cases.

Particularly in regard to older hardware, the graphics "pipeline" (the series of steps the graphics card has to do to generate what is sent to the output ports) sometimes requires that some portions of the "work" it has to do be doubled when there are two monitors connected.  This is often (but not always) true even if clone mode is selected.

For example, when I was using an older ATI AIW 9600XT card as the display card on my HTPC, the video quality of full screen video and DirectDraw 3D graphics performance was definitely degraded somewhat with two displays connected in clone mode (one TV and one junky 15" monitor).  If I disconnected one of them, my benchmark FPS results would go up immediately with no other changes.  Also, 3D image quality would noticeably improve.  There are two things you can try...

You may not realize it, but even in clone mode, one of the monitors is designated as "primary" and one as "secondary".  I don't know how to do it with nVidia's drivers, but see if you can figure out how to swap them and make the TV the primary display.  With ATI, you simply can right click on the picture of one of the monitors in the control panel and choose "swap displays".

Assuming that doesn't work (which it probably won't since you say you can see the same effect on the attached monitor), try disconnecting the monitor (or the TV).  My HTPC runs with a TV as it's ONLY monitor.  With the vast majority of modern video cards this is perfectly "legal".  This too might not work, but it might!  If so, then that shows you... It's a physical limitation of the card.  It's not always ideal to run this way, of course (it's very hard to read text on a SD TV display) and basically impossible to use the computer for normal use then.  There are probably ways to work around these limitations though...

One possible solution would be to use an app like UltraMon to define two different "configurations" for your setup (one with TV Out Only enabled and one with Both Monitors Enabled) and define hotkeys to switch between the configs.  Another would be, of course, to buy one of these (or one of these if you're so inclined) and be done with it.

Of course... I'm just guessing here.  You might find it's the same even with only one monitor connected to the card.  Then I'd guess you're up against a bug either in nVidia's drivers or in MC.  Knowing nVidia... Probably their drivers.

[lalittle]

This is common and expected.

I realize this -- I was just explaining why I set it the way I do.

This stuff here could actually be getting to the crux of the issue.  Even though it appears to be behaving the same way on both monitors, it could be lack of 3D acceleration (or even just doing it poorly).

You may not realize it, but even in clone mode, one of the monitors is designated as "primary" and one as "secondary".

Assuming that doesn't work (which it probably won't since you say you can see the same effect on the attached monitor), try disconnecting the monitor (or the TV).

I've tried COMPLETELY dicsonnecting AND disabling the TV output from the card so that NO signal is being sent to the TV output -- i.e. I set it to a "single monitor" setup using only the computer display.  I get the exact same issue on the computer monitor.  This issue has NOTHING to do with the TV out aspects of the card.  It's present regardless of whether or not a TV monitor is being used in the chain at ALL.  (This is also true for the "blocky text" issue I'm seeing on the GF Ti4600.)

One possible solution would be to use an app like UltraMon to define two different "configurations" for your setup (one with TV Out Only enabled and one with Both Monitors Enabled) and define hotkeys to switch between the configs.

Not necessary since it's been confirmed that the problem exists regardless of the presense of the TV.

Of course... I'm just guessing here.  You might find it's the same even with only one monitor connected to the card.

Yes -- I confirmed this.

Then I'd guess you're up against a bug either in nVidia's drivers or in MC.  Knowing nVidia... Probably their drivers.

I honestly don't think it's fair to assume that it's more likely caused by the drivers.  After all, MC has only recently started using 3D in it's Theater View, and other bugs have been identified and fixed recently, pointing out the fact that there have indeed been some issues with MC's 3D implementation.  For example, the "rubber banding" issue with the boxes was recently identified and fixed.  Given that these issues are completely unique to MC12, either MC is pointing out issues in the drivers, or MC is the culprit.  This is a rather moot point, however, given that the fix will almost certainly not come from Nvidia at this point.  If Theater View in MC is going to be able to work with various Nvidia cards such as the FX5200 and the Ti4600, the fix will undoubtedly have to come from JR.

Thanks again for all the help with this,

Larry

[lalittle]

I'm still seeing this, so I'd really appreciate any further feedback from anybody on this issue.  Some form of this issue, as well as the "blocky font" issue, has been reported by more than one person in various threads, so I'm not the only one with this issue.  Given that Theater View is not as widely used as the standard view, I honsetly feel that the only reason we don't see more reports of this is because there aren't as many people looking at Theater View, and even when people DO look at it, a lot of them don't use a "TV capable" resolution, which is necessary to see some of these issues.

Thanks again,

Larry

[NickM]

Larry, just a thought, but something similar happened with another application.  The "twitching" was caused when I used my mouse wheel, instead of a scroll bar button.  The issue was a mismatch of how far the scroll increments were versus the screen resolution.  Updating MS Intellipoint fixed the problem.

[lalittle]

Larry, just a thought, but something similar happened with another application.  The "twitching" was caused when I used my mouse wheel, instead of a scroll bar button.  The issue was a mismatch of how far the scroll increments were versus the screen resolution.  Updating MS Intellipoint fixed the problem.

Thank you for the post.

I'm using the default mouse drivers, and with the issue I'm seeing, there is no connection between the mouse and the twitching, so it sounds like you were seeing something else.

Thanks again,

Larry

[Araj]

Oh dear oh dear. Sounds like the assumption many programmers seem to have that everyone has the latest hardware, drivers and so on is taking hold at JRiver too. Seems to me that for the most potential users out there, this is(was?) a killer app for organising and listening to music which is in danger of becoming a multimedia monster for all those who have to have the latest of everything. If there's loads of resource-hungry eye candy, then it should be optional. Sounds like my trusty old PIII Thinkpad, on which Theatre/Display view is especially important to me, is going to have major difficulties. A real shame, because where MC12 really has enhanced leverage against the competition is exactly there in an improved Theatre/Display dept.

I'll give the beta a try on my notebook and report back.

[lalittle]

Sounds like my trusty old PIII Thinkpad, on which Theatre/Display view is especially important to me, is going to have major difficulties.

Whether or not there are problems is dependent on several factors, so it's entirely possible that with your specific hardware using the settings you want, you might not have any problems.  That said, I'm still hopeful that JR gets to the bottom of this issue and is able to fix it.  I still firmly believe this is entirely possible.

Larry

[Matt]

The blocky text issue arises with cards that don't support large and/or non-square textures.  We have no choice but to revert to stretching in this case.

As for jiggling, it's possible that the card stretching a texture is doing this as a sort of anti-aliasing.  Check through the 3D control panel settings.

[Araj]

Aaargh. Worse than I thought. I just tested on my Thinkpad T22 (S3 Savage IX graphics card) and for theater view I get a black screen with "Error starting Direct3D engine (Hardware not capable of windowed mode) 

Can I do anything about that?

[glynor]

Aaargh. Worse than I thought. I just tested on my Thinkpad T22 (S3 Savage IX graphics card) and for theater view I get a black screen with "Error starting Direct3D engine (Hardware not capable of windowed mode) 

Can I do anything about that?

Short of buy new hardware I'd say likely not.

That's what MC11.1 is for.  I don't really think it's fair to expect JRiver to continue to cater to the lowest common hardware denominator.  I have good systems, and I appreciate that MC12 can make use of their power.

[JimH]

I don't really think it's fair to expect JRiver to continue to cater to the lowest common hardware denominator.

In some respects, we have to aim at where hardware will be in a year --about the mid point of the MC12 product life cycle.

[raym]

The blocky text issue arises with cards that don't support large and/or non-square textures.  We have no choice but to revert to stretching in this case.

I wonder Matt, is it possible to perhaps list this info somewhere? Ie, which cards (or on-board VPUs) are likely to not handle this correctly?

[lalittle]

That's what MC11.1 is for.  I don't really think it's fair to expect JRiver to continue to cater to the lowest common hardware denominator.  I have good systems, and I appreciate that MC12 can make use of their power.

I STRONGLY disagree with this.  I could see this argument being used for some of the very latest games, which need to really take advantage of new graphics card capabilities in order to compete in their field, but using this argument for a "Music Library" program?  That just strikes me as really bizarre.  On top of that, the very latest games DO work just fine on graphics cards from the last couple years.  These cards will not be able to take advantage of the newest advances in graphics, and will therefore the result will not look as good as systems using the latest cards, but they won't have "problems."  People using slightly older cards with new games won't even realize what's missing -- things will still LOOK fine even without the latest graphics features, they just won't look as good.

Consider also the "system requirements" of MC12 as outlined in the help document.  It calls for a minimum of a "600 MHz Pentium."  Consider the graphics cards that were out when this CPU was still available.  I can't name ANY other program that can work with a system THAT old, yet needs such a new graphics card.  I think it's utterly ridiculous to require a graphics card NEWER than a Geforce Ti4600 in order to create the Theater View screen without "issues."  Something like Theater View simply should either 1) NOT be so advanced that it has these requirements, or 2) at least offer the ability to run a "less resource hungry" version so that people don't have "problems" with slightly older graphics cards.

All that said, I STILL believe that the issues I'm describing may in fact be "bugs" and not just consequences of using graphics cards that are slightly old.  Either way, it still is within JR's ability to fix this without forcing use to buy new hardware for systems that are otherwise PLENTY powerful enough to run MC.  It's just that I feel rather odd buying a new graphics card for such an old system JUST so I can avoid problems with the Theater View in MC.

Thanks,

Larry

[JimH]

All that said, I STILL believe that the issues I'm describing may in fact be "bugs" and not just consequences of using graphics cards that are slightly old.  Either way, it still is within JR's ability to fix this...

You may be right.  We're not ruling it out.  But we're not seeing this much, so it's hard to believe it's our bug.  Could be, but it seems unlikely at this point.

Slightly old graphic cards usually work with newer drivers.

[Griff]

Slightly old graphic cards usually work with newer drivers

Not true in todays world.

Certain vers. of drivers will work with a specfic card better than the newest driver.

As with ATI and Nvidia one driver supports all cards, even Volari.

PS Happy Birthday!

Youre a year older than me again

 

[Matt]

If you're seeing blocky text, could you post a screenshot to help us understand?

Also, post the video card model (and driver version) along with it.  

Try disabling Windows "ClearType" anti-aliasing as a test.

Also, play around in the video card control panel 3D settings (AA, AF, etc.) and see if anything makes a difference.

Finally, double-check your connection because analog connections can sometimes have pixel jitter / crawl. (test with DVI to a monitor / projector)

We'll look into adding a way to get more information about a card's abilities, because that would help these discussions.