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[ady199]

Can anyone please tell me if Media Centre 12 is compatible with Vista?

Thanks in advance.

[thenoob1]

Normally it should work but I use Vista Enterprise and it doesn´t... but there are many things in vista which don´t work:
drivers for soundcards and graphic c. etc.

So a statement from one isn´t trustable anyway.... try yourself

[Matt]

Media Center works well with Vista.  We've been testing with the RTM version for quite a while.

[Listener]

Matt,

The following  article by Mark Russinovich mentions
"Multimedia Class Scheduler Service" features that allow an audio or video application to run threads at a very high priority to deliver glitch-free service.

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/technetmag/issues/2007/02/VistaKernel/default.aspx?pf=true

Have you tried this feature with MC 12?  if so, does it appear to be effective?

Bill

[Matt]

Thanks for the link.  I think that's mostly talking more about the inner workings of the kernel with regards to multimedia tasks.

Vista works well with Media Center, but so does XP (or 2k or WinME).

You should get glitch-free audio on either OS, and using ASIO output you'll get an ensured bit-perfect connection with no Windows mangling on both operating systems.

[Listener]

Matt,

I read the article to say that media player apps could request a priority boost for their threads that play audio or video.

From the article:

"When you play an audio file, Windows Media Player registers Audio task threads, and when you play a video, it registers Playback task threads. The MMCSS service boosts all threads that have indicated that they are delivering a stream at the same time when they are running in the process that owns the foreground window and when they have the BackgroundOnly value set to True in their task's definition key."

If WMP does it, why shouldn't MC request that its audio or video task threads be boosted to a high priority? 

I'm not complaining about MC.  I started running MC 11 on a laptop and hunting down causes of glitches was an obsession for awhile.  Then I set up a Core 2 Duo desktop PC with very little s/w installed except for MC11/12 and Firefox.  (And I don't run Firefox while I'm playing audio.)  I'm aiming to use MC 11/12 to play music in a high-end audio system and  want flawless operation.  It would be nice to get that on a general use PC running other s/w while I play music.

Bill

[JimH]

If your PC isn't ancient and you're still having problems with audio playback, then it is almost certain that some other program is causing problems, and it's very likely to be a virus checker.  Uninstall it and reboot to test.

[Listener]

If your PC isn't ancient and you're still having problems with audio playback, then it is almost certain that some other program is causing problems, and it's very likely to be a virus checker.  Uninstall it and reboot to test.

Jim,

Thanks for your comment.  As I said, I'm not complaining about MC.  I got good advice earlier about preventing glitches on the MC 11 forum:

- turn off the auto-scan function in Norton Anti-virus.  Now it just checks email attachments and files opened by MS Office.  Big improvement.

- Play with the amount of buffering in the Tools/Options/Playback/Output Mode Settings dialog.  That helped too.

- Increase the MC secondary memory buffer in the registry key

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\JRiver\Media Center 12\Player Core\Secondary Buffer Minimum MS
That helped too.  Thanks, Matt. 

When I set up a PC dedicated to playing music with a TByte of storage, I used the same ideas on that PC.  I haven't seen any glitches on that PC since.  So I don't have a problem to solve at this point, thanks to earlier help from you, Matt and others on this forum.

I just think that if Vista has some tools for allowing audio threads to run glitch free under more adverse conditions, perhaps JRiver could use them to reduce the need for this sort of problem solving.

Bill
 

[glynor]

* glynor thinks what Bill calls a "glitch" and what Jim (and I) call a "glitch" are two different things...

I can't imagine that a Core2 Duo based machine would have any issues with playback with the default settings, and while running other applications (serious games even), unless it was memory starved.  Of course, I'm one of those wacky guys who just buys regular speaker cable at Radio Shack, and doesn't believe that fancy $400 wooden knobs can affect the sound quality of my amplifier....

[BartMan01]

* glynor I can't imagine that a Core2 Duo based machine would have any issues with playback with the default settings

I guess that depends on what you consider 'issues'.  I know with video content, MC stutters, freezes, and then loses audio sync if it tries to do anything other than play back the video (like if I plug in my iPod while video is playing, or do any major library maintenance).  If I play back the same video with an external player (WMC11, Quicktime, or VLC) the video continues to play flawlessly when doing the same tasks in MC.  This is on an AMD Athlon 64X2 Dual Core 4200+ system with 2GB of RAM.

[Listener]

> * glynor thinks what Bill calls a "glitch" and what Jim (and I) call a "glitch" are two different things...

What I mean is an audible interruption or clearly wrong sound while I'm playing music.  Most likely from buffers running dry somewhere along the path from audio file to DAC.

What do you and Jim mean by glitch?

> I can't imagine that a Core2 Duo based machine would have any issues with playback with
> the default settings, and while running other applications (serious games even),
> unless it was memory starved. 

Well, on a 2GB 1.83 GHZ Core 2 Duo desktop PC with no other application running except MC 11, I did hear an occasional glitch until I upped the buffer size a bit and doubled the secondary buffer size.  It wasn't frequent but it did occur at intervals.

> Of course, I'm one of those wacky guys who just buys regular speaker cable at Radio Shack,
> and doesn't believe that fancy $400 wooden knobs can affect the sound quality of my amplifier...

Your comment seems to be dismissing my observations as fantasy.  I'm a sceptic too when it comes to such things too. However, I don't dismiss someone else's observation just because I hadn't seen it. 

Bill

[Matt]

If you're using ASIO, make sure you upgrade to the latest MC 12.

We've improved the buffer fill request times to be essentially as fast as the computer can move the memory. (several times faster than MC 11)

[glynor]

Your comment seems to be dismissing my observations as fantasy.  I'm a sceptic too when it comes to such things too. However, I don't dismiss someone else's observation just because I hadn't seen it. 

No offense meant!  Sorry ... wish there was a [sarcasm] tag.  I certainly believe that you have legitimate issues!  I imagine that you listening to my system and me listening to my system might hear two completely different things, and that's all I meant.

I have a fairly high tolerance for glitches.  What you call a "pop" or a "glitch" I might call inherent in listening to MP3-compressed audio (and I can't tell the difference between a FLAC/APE file and a good quality VBR MP3) -- or, even more likely, I won't hear at all because I'd consumed far too much wine.  Plus, I'm not using any fancy driver settings or anything (just an Audigy 2 sound card, DirectSound out, analog outputs run into a Klipsch sound system)...  Analog outs can cover a whole host of sins in my experience.

I will say though, I have a fairly beefy system (described below) but it is not a Core2 Duo, and I really honestly can't hear any glitches in playback with all sorts of background tasks running.  Sure, when a CPU intensive task first starts up (like launching a game or something) I might get a "skip" or two, but once the task is loaded it's fine.

However, I will say this...

I guess that depends on what you consider 'issues'.  I know with video content, MC stutters, freezes, and then loses audio sync if it tries to do anything other than play back the video (like if I plug in my iPod while video is playing, or do any major library maintenance).

This absolutely does NOT happen to me generally.  I have an Opteron 165 (AMD dual-core CPU) at 2.6GHz with 2 GB RAM, and I can play high-quality encodes all day with all kinds of background tasks running -- even video encoding, BeyondTV recording, or 3D games running in the background -- with no detectable glitches.  Again, immediately when a new task is starting up (if BTV starts recording a new program for example), I might (and not always) get a 1-2 second glitch or freeze in playback, but it resumes and continues without issue afterwards (same goes for plugging in an external drive)...

My guess is that you have some disk subsystem issues or codec/filter problems.  Another thing to check is your memory bandwidth and timings.  My memory on that system is running at DDR-280 MHz (dual-channel) at 1T.  If you have a Core2 Duo, but you're using DDR2-533 or 667 RAM (or have an Athlon64 X2 but the RAM is running at DDR-166 at 2T, or single-channel, or something), then I can understand having memory-loading glitches.  Fast, high quality RAM makes all the difference in the world!

[Matt]

Video playback using the QuickTime engine may not be as skip resistant as DirectShow video playback. (we're at Apple's whim with QT playback)

If possible, make sure you're using the DirectShow engine for your videos.  As Glynor said, you could also have a filter problem if video hesitates often.

As a comparison, I recently watched a DVD at home while syncing an iPod with two conversions running at once, all with MC.  I was worried it might be a problem, but the DVD just sailed right along.

[Listener]

Matt> If you're using ASIO, make sure you upgrade to the latest MC 12.

I'm on 12.151. Is the improvement after that?

I'm about to use ASIO.  I've been working through BIOS and driver problems on my Core2Duo desktop PC and didn't want to install my Juli@ card until those issues were resolved.

Matt> We've improved the buffer fill request times to be essentially as fast as the computer can move the memory. (several times faster than MC 11)

Thanks, Matt. This is very good to know.

Glynor> No offense meant!  Sorry

Ok. No problem.

Glynor> I have a fairly high tolerance for glitches. ...

Sounds like a difference in usage and expectations.

I'm aiming to use MC 12 for playback on a good 2 channel stereo as a replacement for  my CD player.  So I want to get flawless playback.  I try to track down and figure out any glitches I hear. 

Bill

[glynor]

Sounds like a difference in usage and expectations.

Absolutely.  And that was all I meant initially.   

[Matt]

I'm on 12.151. Is the improvement after that?

Yes.  We finished the ASIO optimizations in build 157.

[BartMan01]

This absolutely does NOT happen to me generally.  I have an Opteron 165 (AMD dual-core CPU) at 2.6GHz with 2 GB RAM, and I can play high-quality encodes all day with all kinds of background tasks running -- even video encoding, BeyondTV recording, or 3D games running in the background -- with no detectable glitches.  Again, immediately when a new task is starting up (if BTV starts recording a new program for example), I might (and not always) get a 1-2 second glitch or freeze in playback, but it resumes and continues without issue afterwards (same goes for plugging in an external drive)...

My guess is that you have some disk subsystem issues or codec/filter problems.  Another thing to check is your memory bandwidth and timings.  My memory on that system is running at DDR-280 MHz (dual-channel) at 1T.  If you have a Core2 Duo, but you're using DDR2-533 or 667 RAM (or have an Athlon64 X2 but the RAM is running at DDR-166 at 2T, or single-channel, or something), then I can understand having memory-loading glitches.  Fast, high quality RAM makes all the difference in the world!

System is fine, the stutter/freeze/loss of audio sync ONLY happens in MC and only when MC is trying to do something else at the same time.  If I have the same video playing in WMC11, QT, or VLC I can do the same tasks in MC without the stutter/freeze/loss of audio sync in the video.  If I had a codec/filter issue I would expect to see issues in all players and not just one.

If I run the video outside of MC, I can do anything in MC with no playback issues.
If I run the video inside MC, I can do anything outside MC with no playback issues.
If I run the video inside MC, and try to do major library maintenance (update lots of tags at once) or plug in my iPod then I have playback issues while MC is trying to multitask.  I can do these same tasks while the video is playing with any other player and I have no issues.
Type of video does not matter (divx, quicktime, wmv, etc.)

As to RAM - 2GB OCZ dual channel DDR400/PC3200U 2-3-2-5 SANDRA benchmarks are 3986MB/s and 3974MB/s.

[Listener]

Yes.  We finished the ASIO optimizations in build 157.

Thanks, Matt.

[glynor]

System is fine, the stutter/freeze/loss of audio sync ONLY happens in MC and only when MC is trying to do something else at the same time

Yeah, that RAM sounds fine for sure!  Not sure why you're seeing these issues and I'm not, though one other variable is network storage (I know you have a bunch of stuff on a NAS).  Oh well...

One small (tiny really) point is that both Quicktime and VLC don't use external DirectShow filters (and WiMP does but I quite often find its behavior different than other DirectShow players for whatever reason) so "expecting to see issues in all players" doesn't really apply to those particular players (since they aren't using the same external filter chains in the same way).  ZoomPlayer and MPC would be better comparison tools, though every media app stresses the system in slightly different ways.

Of course, then there's the "gremlin" effect... which is always hard to quantify.  Either way... We have very similar systems (my memory bandwidth is higher and my CPU core speed is a slight bit higher, but they're really fairly close), and I'm not seeing "serious" similar issues.  Like I said, an occasional glitch, but nothing which persists and nothing I'd call serious.

[BartMan01]

All of my content is local, I use a 2nd machine running Ubuntu Server just as a backup server.  Didn't mean to imply that I was having major issues, just that I was experiencing playback issues under specific circumstances.  The issues are infreqent and only last for 2-5 seconds then everything goes back to normal (usually with audio a few frames out of sync, and a pause/play fixes that).  Currently I just launch video directly to Quicktime or VLC anyway if I know I am going to need to do any other heavy lifting in MC - plus I find VLC handles the vsync issues running h.264 better than Quicktime or MC (which I am pretty sure is also using quicktime).

[glynor]

If MC is using Quicktime (it does by default if there are no other DirectShow filters available which can handle the playback), then that's your problem right there.  Matt said as much just above...

Video playback using the QuickTime engine may not be as skip resistant as DirectShow video playback. (we're at Apple's whim with QT playback)

If possible, make sure you're using the DirectShow engine for your videos.  As Glynor said, you could also have a filter problem if video hesitates often.

But glad it's nothing serious and you have a solution that works for you.  (I too use VLC quite a bit for one-off playback, though I prefer MPC a slight bit.)

[BartMan01]

If MC is using Quicktime ... then that's your problem right there. 

Except that it happens with divx and wmv content too.  Just running the CCCP CODEC pack currently, I don't like loading the system down with too many CODECS since many are unstable on their own (as I found when I tried to do some video editing).