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[KAP]

I wrote about this problems earlier, but haven't got any answer:

In the Scandinavian countries, Norway, Sweden and Denmark we have 3 types in the end of the alphabet spcially for this countries.
In Norway: Ææ - Øø - Åå
This types in Sweden is as following: Ää - Öö - Åå, but in a little bit different order than in Norwegian.

This problems has to be fixed, because it's nearly impossibly to search in a large library without to get this types at right place.

In Norwegian it should be like this: Ææ - Ää - Øø - Öö - Åå in the end of the alphabet.
As now the "Ææ" and the "Ää" is mixed betwen files in "A", in a hopeless mixture in the wrong end of the alphabet, and the type "Øø" and the swedish"Öö" is mixed with files beginning with "O".

Please help me to get this fixed, and tell me how to import Norwegian language to MC 12.

[JimH]

We'll check. 

What build do you have?  Latest?

[KAP]

We'll check. 

What build do you have?  Latest?

I have 12.0.198

[Matt]

By design, MC ignores accents, umlauts, etc. when searching.  That way "pop" will find "póp" and "pöp".

It also does this for sorts, but perhaps this should be changed or made optional.

[robydago]

if you (jriver) have time to spend on "international" problems, please consider also the sorting issue I'm experiencing with Italian:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=39968.msg272414#msg272414

[ADDiCT]

I'm from germany, and we have strange characters, too (; They are the infamous "Umlauts" öÖäÄüÜ, and the ß.

AFAIK, MC currently handles these characters as if they were their "normal" counterparts. If i do a search for "Arzte", MC will also find files containing "Ärzte". I guess that's why the scandinavian characters show up near their "normal" counterparts in a sort. The way MC sorts these characters seems quite logical to me.

I think MC's current behaviour is quite good, and logical. If you make any changes to the way MC handles the special characters, please consider this, if possible.

Edit: Matt's post arrived while i typed mine, hence the redunancy. Making the sort/search type optional sounds like a good solution... But that would mean quite a few new options.

[KAP]

By design, MC ignores accents, umlauts, etc. when searching.  That way "pop" will find "póp" and "pöp".

It also does this for sorts, but perhaps this should be changed or made optional.

I understand, but in the Scandinavian languages this specially types are wery essential, and a lot of words, names and so far begins with this types.

Because of this, is it nearly a most to get this types placed in the rear end of the alphabet.

I can see there are many countries with problems this way, and I could ask for the following:
Is it possibly to make the alphabet adjustably, so the different countries could make their own alphabet as they wont?

[robydago]

do any of you non English speaking people experience problems with sorting month like I do in Italian?:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=39968.msg272414#msg272414

[Matt]

In build 216 and later:

Changed: Accented characters are no longer treated like their unaccented counterparts during sorting. (but still are during searching)

[KAP]

In build 216 and later:

Changed: Accented characters are no longer treated like their unaccented counterparts during sorting. (but still are during searching)

I have got build 198, and I tried to search for updates, but I got a message: no updates available.

My MC 12 is the upgrade trialversion, may bee I can not update this, but I can not test i really without.
What do I have to do?

[gappie]

I have got build 198, and I tried to search for updates, but I got a message: no updates available.

My MC 12 is the upgrade trialversion, may bee I can not update this, but I can not test i really without.
What do I have to do?

there is a thread at the top of this forum with the latest public build, 207. 216 is still on the beta board.

[KAP]

there is a thread at the top of this forum with the latest public build, 207. 216 is still on the beta board.

Will the latest wersion be available as updates after that I have purchased this wersion, or do I need to reinstall the program to get the latest build?

[Matt]

Just to close the loop, the build at the top of this board has the changes mentioned here.

[KAP]

Just to close the loop, the build at the top of this board has the changes mentioned here.

Now I have upgraded to build 12.0.222, but I have still got my problems with the alphabetic orders in the Scandinavian languages.
Per haps I have to do something more tho change the setup, do I??

Now the Å and Ä is plased betwen the A-named files, and the Ø oand Ö is placed in the O-named files.
For searching in a large library this does not work.
Please tell me what to do.

[KAP]

Now I have upgraded to build 12.0.222, but I have still got my problems with the alphabetic orders in the Scandinavian languages.
Per haps I have to do something more tho change the setup, do I??

Now the Å and Ä is plased betwen the A-named files, and the Ø oand Ö is placed in the O-named files.
For searching in a large library this does not work.
Please tell me what to do.

I really don't understand why ther have to be a problem like deskribet above.
Just look to windows, there is all the types sorted in the alphabetic order for the language in use.
This means that in the Norwegian language, the Swedish Ä is placed right after the Norwegian Æ, because they sounds and means the same, and the Swedish Ö is placed right after the Norwegian Ø, because they sounds the same.
The German special "s" is placed right after the Norwegian S, because they sounds almost loke.
Isn't it possibly to mahe any plug in to fix this alphabetproblems for MC12?

[JimH]

Now I have upgraded to build 12.0.222, but I have still got my problems with the alphabetic orders in the Scandinavian languages.

Would you give us the order that it should be?

a b c d e , etc.

I'm sorry for the problem.

[KAP]

Would you give us the order that it should be?

a b c d e , etc.

I'm sorry for the problem.

The following is the best order for use in the Norwegian alphabet:

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z Æ Ä Ø Ö Å

Thank You

[leezer3]

Just a thought here- Would it be possible to add an alphabet definition to the language file, or somewhere in the options?
To me, (And this is speaking as an native English speaker), I would much rather have these characters showing up with their 'standard' counterparts, but equally I see the Scandanavian argument.
Like many of my thoughts, I suspect this smacks of options overload, but I would much rather have the choice 

-Leezer-

[matshif]

The following is the best order for use in the Norwegian alphabet:

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z Æ Ä Ø Ö Å

Thank You

In Sweden we have it like this

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z Å Ä Ö
/Mats

[Alex B]

In Sweden we have it like this

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z Å Ä Ö
/Mats

This alphabet and sorting order is valid for the Finnish language too. I wonder if Windows applications are supposed to get this info directly from the selected OS language options?

[Matt]

Media Center will honor the language you've selected in Windows Control Panel.  This seems correct.

Sorting the name column in Media Center 12 (build 227) with six files in it:

English:
Abba
Äbba
Åbba
Babba
Öbba
Zabba

Swedish:
Abba
Babba
Zabba
Åbba
Äbba
Öbba

This exactly matches Windows Explorer.

(this holds true from build 216 and later -- note that a restart of MC is needed after changing the Windows locale)

[KAP]

Media Center will honor the language you've selected in Windows Control Panel.  This seems correct.

Sorting the name column in Media Center 12 (build 227) with six files in it:

English:
Abba
Äbba
Åbba
Babba
Öbba
Zabba

Swedish:
Abba
Babba
Zabba
Åbba
Äbba
Öbba

This exactly matches Windows Explorer.

(this holds true from build 216 and later -- note that a restart of MC is needed after changing the Windows locale)

I see, but in Swedish you wrote?
Do we have this languages in MC12?
I can't find any Scandinavian choice in the language- collomn.
In MC10 I could import Norwegian as a choice, but I can't find it here in MC12.
But it would just help a little bit, because we in Norway have a lot og files named with the Swedish special-carakters, and we speak each others language well, so therefor we need an sorting for the both languages at the same time.

[Matt]

We use the system setting from Windows Control Panel.

The language you select in Media Center will not change sorting or searching.

[KAP]

We use the system setting from Windows Control Panel.

The language you select in Media Center will not change sorting or searching.

Oh, but then I understand lesser than little.
My windows is set up to Norwegian alphabet, and the sorting and searching works as I deskribed earlier, with the Æ Ä Ø Ö Å in the rear end og the alphabet.
And I worked for a couple of years with MC10, and had almost the same order for searching.(I could live with that).

But now after upgrade to MC12 I have my files beginning with A Ä Æ as they all was "A" in the beginning of the alphabet,  and all the files beginning with Ö O Ø as they all was "O".
Why does not this work in my computer as you tell me?
Is it possibly I need to reinstall the program?

[JimH]

Is there a problem everywhere in the program?  Or only with one type of use?

[Matt]

Make sure you have build 226 from the top of this board installed.

[KAP]

Is there a problem everywhere in the program?  Or only with one type of use?

I had a miss for updating the library to. 

In MC10 I used to clear library, then import the library complete, and I found my earlier column settings and so on.

In MC12, I tried to do it the same way, but I lost all my settings.  The program went back to default settings for all columns and sizes.  I thought this was a bug for later uppgrade.

Else I don't have not seen any other problems.  It works quickly and well, and in that way is much better than MC10.
(Because my library is very large).

[KAP]

Make sure you have build 226 from the top of this board installed.

Yes I have, MC 12.0.222, and I upgraded from the top of this board as You told me to to.

[Matt]

I can't seem to reproduce.  What's the exact language you're using in Window Control Panel?

You could erase the "Cache" subfolder under your library folder and also the C:\Documents and Settings\[User Name]\Application Data\J River\Cache.  Then force MC to resort something again to make sure it's not a cache issue.

Thanks.

[KAP]

I can't seem to reproduce.  What's the exact language you're using in Window Control Panel?

You could erase the "Cache" subfolder under your library folder and also the C:\Documents and Settings\[User Name]\Application Data\J River\Cache.  Then force MC to resort something again to make sure it's not a cache issue.

Thanks.

This latest wersion: .222 I downloaded from the "Pop Up" in the "Start-page"

I use Norwegian in my windows.
To display the problems easy, I click icon "Audio", and then all my files is to be listed.
But I have got many thousand files in each type, so it's nearly impossibly to find them.

[Matt]

This latest wersion: .222 I downloaded from the "Pop Up" in the "Start-page"

I use Norwegian in my windows.
To display the problems easy, I click icon "Audio", and then all my files is to be listed.
But I have got many thousand files in each type, so it's nearly impossibly to find them.

Here's a gallery showing what I'm seeing.
http://tinyurl.com/yuhpyz

The first shows MC sorting by the Name column with English.

The next shows the locale getting switched to Norwegian.

The third shows MC sorting by the Name column again, this time using the Norwegian locale.

Could you post a similar gallery if this isn't what you're seeing? (use MC's "Share To Web" to easily make a gallery)

[Matt]

Bump.

We think the gallery we posted seems correct.  Let us know if you disagree or if it doesn't match what you're seeing.

Thanks.

[KAP]

Bump.

We think the gallery we posted seems correct.  Let us know if you disagree or if it doesn't match what you're seeing.

Thanks.

I did see the same in Windows settings and so far, but the sorting in MC12 shows a big differense.
Im nor so shure how I can send a gallery as you did, but I can type an exempel below: (This examples are picked from the searchlist)
ÅA - ÅB - ÄA - AA - AB - ÅC - AC - ÄD - AD - // - ÖA - OA - ØA - OB - OC - ÖC - ØC -

Thank you.

[Matt]

I did see the same in Windows settings and so far, but the sorting in MC12 shows a big differense.
Im nor so shure how I can send a gallery as you did, but I can type an exempel below: (This examples are picked from the searchlist)
ÅA - ÅB - ÄA - AA - AB - ÅC - AC - ÄD - AD - // - ÖA - OA - ØA - OB - OC - ÖC - ØC -

Thank you.

Have you tried clicking a column in Media Center to force a resort?

Does the gallery I posted look correct to you?

Thanks.

[modelmaker]

Matt said build .226 not .222. Get it here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=40485.0

[KAP]

Matt said build .226 not .222. Get it here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=40485.0

The page can not be shown, by using the link above.
Is it out of order for the moment?

[Alex B]

The page can not be shown, by using the link above. Is it out of order for the moment?

The link works for me, but the build 226 is already old. There is a newer build available (released yesterday).

Check the first post in the first thread of this Media Center 12 forum. The thread is named as "Media Center 12.0.233".

[KAP]

The link works for me, but the build 226 is already old. There is a newer build available (released yesterday).

Check the first post in the first thread of this Media Center 12 forum. The thread is named as "Media Center 12.0.233".

The thread "Media Center 12.0.233".did work, and now I have downloaded an run the exefil, but the sorting is exactly as earlier. 
Perhaps I should do this only to test the thread, and the thread work, but not the result.

[JimH]

Have you tried clicking a column in Media Center to force a resort?

[Alex B]

I use English XP, but my regional and language settings are set to Finnish.

This is how the latest MC build sorts by the Artist column in a details view:

Yngwie Malmsteen
Yö
Yo-Yo Ma
Yves Coignet
Zager & Evans

(Yö is a Finnish pop band)

It should be like this:

Yngwie Malmsteen
Yo-Yo Ma
Yves Coignet
Yö
Zager & Evans

I am able to find "Yö" easily and I have no problem with the current behavior, but it does not follow the OS sorting order.

There is a fundamental difference between the accented or umlauted letters (like é or ü) and the Scandinavian å, ä, ö etc letters. The Scandinavian letters are independent letters and they have an official place in the alphabet.

This wiki page explains the difference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_alphabet
(and has links to other Scandinavian alphabet pages)

[Mr ChriZ]

It's amazing what you learn on the interact forum.
Up until I read this thread it had never even
crossed my mind that different countries would sort
there alphabets differently!

[KAP]

Yes, I have. Normaly I click the coloumn to sort from top, and after that possibly sort in an other coloumn.
The sortingfailure is the same in all coloumns.

[KAP]

Yes, I have. Normaly I click the coloumn to sort from top, and after that possibly sort in an other coloumn.
The sortingfailure is the same in all coloumns.

Now I have upgraded to build .233, but the sortingproblems is still the same.
Matt sent me a board showing the Windows preferences, and I answered that I saw the same in my computer, but afterwards I thought about one more thing:
I have got an Norwegian version of windows, I don't really know what it really means,
but the language labes shows "Norsk (Bokmål", in stead of "Norwegian (Bokmål" and the country label shows "Norge", in stead of "Norway" in the english version.
Is it possible that this can do any difference?
In my Windows explorer the sorting is proper for the Scandinavian languages, and the sorting was also proper in MC 10.
??

[Matt]

I tried the exact test Alex listed. (same names, OS set to Finnish)

I get the correct results with MC (and the OS).

We're scratching our heads.  As a test, please erase this folder in case the cache is the problem:
C:\Documents and Settings\[User Name]\Application Data\J River\Cache

[Alex B]

As a test, please erase this folder in case the cache is the problem: C:\Documents and Settings\[User Name]\Application Data\J River

Oops. Aren't the default database, automatic backups and cover art under that folder?

I found this folder:

C:\Documents and Settings\[User Name]\Application Data\J River\Cache

It contains two files:
Sort Character Table v1 (0x40B).dat  (created November 9, 2006)
Sort Character Table v1 (0x409).dat  (created December 5, 2006)

Both files were accessed today. (edit: but it could have been me when browsing the folder)

Should I delete them?

I have also MC11.1 installed. Could that change anything?

[Matt]

Sorry for the typo.  Yes, erase the cache folder.  It'll be rebuilt if needed. (and it takes very little time)

[Alex B]

Thanks! Looks like deleting the cache folder helped.

Before:
Björk
Bjorn Again
Värttinä
Vaya Con Dios
Velvet Revolver
Wählt NDW
Wamdue Project
William Orbit
Yö
Yo-Yo Ma
Yuki Kajiura

After:
Bjorn Again
Björk
Vaya Con Dios
Velvet Revolver
Värttinä
Wamdue Project
William Orbit
Wählt NDW
Yo-Yo Ma
Yuki Kajiura
Yö

Also, the ä, ö, å etc searches seem to work now. For example, Bjork and Björk are now different searches.

[Matt]

Also, the ä, ö, å etc searches seem to work now. For example, Bjork and Björk are now different searches.

Ah, that's the same bug, just in reverse.

There are two tables (by design, search ignores umlauts, while sorting doesn't), and the cache was pooling these into one table.

Build 237 and later will fix this.  Thanks for all the help.

[Alex B]

Actually, I meant that the search works correctly when it makes a difference between o and ö.

If this is depended on what is the language selection in Windows Control panel perhaps you should not fix it back. If this is not changed again Scandinavians could quickly write yö in the search box and find 40 files instead of 5022, which happens on my library if I write yo in the search. The English users could continue mixing Björk and Bjork without problems - both searches would return the same files. Germans would not see a difference between u and ü since umlauted letters are not considered as individual letters in the German language. I mean, if it is posible get all this from the selected OS options.

It would be nice to hear other Scandinavian users' opinions.

[JohnM]

It would be nice to hear other Scandinavian users' opinions.

Here's one from Finland: I'm completely with Alex on this one. If ones regional settings can make a difference here and can be implemented, it would be great.