Topic: Why does Theater View text look bad? (Read 8068 times)

cncb · « **on:** April 25, 2007, 08:15:46 am »

Sorry, I thought I remember seeing a thread about this a while ago but can't seem to find it. All the text in Theater View looks pretty bad. It's not sharp at all - the outline is really "fuzzy". The text in other full-screen programs looks great on the same PC (Beyond TV, MCE) so it seems to be an issue just with Theater View. Is there a way to fix this? Thanks.

Matt · « **Reply #1 on:** April 25, 2007, 08:48:49 am »

Could you post a screenshot? It could be your graphic driver fumbling the alpha in the text.

Also, try toggling clear-type font edges in Windows to see if it makes a difference.

cncb · « **Reply #2 on:** April 25, 2007, 09:49:38 am »

The text in the title bar isn't too bad but notice the text in the buttons. This seems to be the case for both of my PCs - one with an ATI 9600 card and one with an NVidia 6600GT. Could this be a problem with using a widescreen resolution? How do I access the clear-type font edges setting?

Matt · « **Reply #3 on:** April 25, 2007, 10:05:06 am »

That screenshot looks pretty good to me. Maybe I need glasses.

To test the font smoothing (on XP):
Desktop > Right-click > Properties > Appearance > Effects > Font smoothing

Matt · « **Reply #4 on:** April 25, 2007, 10:12:19 am »

If you zoom in on that screenshot you can see that alpha on the edges of the font is being properly handled. I think that's about as good as it could look.

Maybe white on gray doesn't look good to you? Or maybe you could try a new font in Options > Tree & View?

cncb · « **Reply #5 on:** April 25, 2007, 12:41:41 pm »

I tried the ClearType option and the Hairstyle (blue) skin and neither looked much different.

To me the text in Theater View looks "thick and jaggy" (and yes I'm wearing my glasses). Here are some screenshots from other programs to compare. It's almost as if Theater View is making the text bold? I will try to play with the font settings some more but haven't had much luck so far.

JimH · « **Reply #6 on:** April 25, 2007, 12:52:47 pm »

I can't see that they look any better. The beyondtv graphic is blurred.

Can you try looking at this thread on a different PC and check all three images? Something's odd.

Edit: Re-reading, I think you mean that the text looks "fat". Right?

jgreen · « **Reply #7 on:** April 25, 2007, 01:01:15 pm »

cncb--

Interesting choice of comparisions. While the button text on MC is certainly the most aliased of the examples given, I think several things are at play here:

#1. You clearly don't mind blurry things, but find jaggies objectionable. The text for WMP "albums" "artist" and"playlists" is is overly smoothed by double, IMO, and the graphics for "beyond tv" are out of this world and on some other planet of blurry things.

#2. While the MC button text is the most jaggy, it is so by a near miss, which is attributable to the font choice, IMO. If you look at the text for "recorded shows" and "live tv" you will see similar jaggies, only SLIGHTLY less.

#3. The real improvement, IMO, is that "recorded shows" and "live tv" have drop shadows. That, along with the hi-con bg, makes that text the clear winner, all things considered.

I don't spend much time with theater view, but I thing a quick stab at a drop shadow for the text will do wonders for this.

cncb · « **Reply #8 on:** April 25, 2007, 01:02:42 pm »

Quote from: JimH on April 25, 2007, 12:52:47 pm

I can't see that they look any better. The beyondtv graphic is blurred.

Can you try looking at this thread on a different PC and check all three images? Something's odd.

Yes, but that is an image. Look at the list items. To me the "Playing Now" button text in Theater View is clearly jaggy. Look at "Artists" and "Live TV" in the other shots which are much sharper to me. The difference seems to be that the font in the other programs is much thinner - I can't seem to get this in Theater View. I guess I'm the only one who sees it this way but it is a clear difference (in text sharpness) when I launch one of these programs from Theater View on my TV.

cncb · « **Reply #9 on:** April 25, 2007, 01:22:12 pm »

Quote from: jgreen on April 25, 2007, 01:01:15 pm

#1. You clearly don't mind blurry things, but find jaggies objectionable. The text for WMP "albums" "artist" and"playlists" is is overly smoothed by double, IMO, and the graphics for "beyond tv" are out of this world and on some other planet of blurry things.

#2. While the MC button text is the most jaggy, it is so by a near miss, which is attributable to the font choice, IMO. If you look at the text for "recorded shows" and "live tv" you will see similar jaggies, only SLIGHTLY less.

#3. The real improvement, IMO, is that "recorded shows" and "live tv" have drop shadows. That, along with the hi-con bg, makes that text the clear winner, all things considered.

I don't spend much time with theater view, but I thing a quick stab at a drop shadow for the text will do wonders for this.

Blurry logos don't bother me but I guess I would rather have the text a little blurry than to look blocky. It almost makes it look like Theater View is running in an SD resolution on my HDTV based on the text. If I could match the text in the second screen shot (slender maybe with a drop shadow) I would be happy...

cncb · « **Reply #10 on:** April 25, 2007, 01:48:16 pm »

Quote from: JimH on April 25, 2007, 12:52:47 pm

Edit: Re-reading, I think you mean that the text looks "fat". Right?

Yes, I think that's a big part of it.

DarkPenguin · « **Reply #11 on:** April 25, 2007, 02:08:53 pm »

Just as an aside, monitor contrast (and general color response) can have a pretty big effect on this.

jgreen · « **Reply #12 on:** April 25, 2007, 04:31:36 pm »

You're already at opposite ends of gamma, or should be, so I don't think Monitor Envy is the path out. I think cncb is mostly responding to a crisper font with SLIGHTLY neater AA, and a drop shadow. The neutral grey bg isn't doing you guys any favors,either. Note that cncb had no quibble with the MC border text "Home > Audio", which is the same darn font and every bit as aliased. But it's much less noteworthy against the sleek and contrasty bg.

Matt · « **Reply #13 on:** April 25, 2007, 05:05:20 pm »

Next build adds a subtle drop shadow to Theater View text. It uses a more natural blurred drop-shadow than the harsh one in cncb's screenshot.

For what it's worth, we did quite a bit of digging today and our text drawing appears spot on. There are a lot of layers (GDI -> image -> DirectX texture) but the end results are nearly pixel-perfect to standard Windows text drawing. (with Cleartype enabled or disabled)

You may want to try a different font in MC > Options > Tree & View.

jmmttu77 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 25, 2007, 05:59:37 pm »

Quote from: Matt on April 25, 2007, 05:05:20 pm

Next build adds a subtle drop shadow to Theater View text. It uses a more natural blurred drop-shadow than the harsh one in cncb's screenshot.

Sweet!

cncb · « **Reply #15 on:** May 03, 2007, 10:15:23 am »

Thanks, I think it looks better but still too "chunky" for me. I have tried changing the font but haven't found one that displays very "slender". Any recommendations?

IlPadrino · « **Reply #16 on:** May 06, 2007, 01:08:37 pm »

Quote from: Matt on April 25, 2007, 05:05:20 pm

Next build adds a subtle drop shadow to Theater View text. It uses a more natural blurred drop-shadow than the harsh one in cncb's screenshot.

The drop shadow looks much better by my tastes.

zirum · « **Reply #17 on:** May 07, 2007, 02:40:49 pm »

I would agree with cncb on this, but only when cleartype is not activated. Then it does look a bit fat and digital (strange edges. Kinda upscaled, if you know what mean) on my screen...

raym · « **Reply #18 on:** May 07, 2007, 06:51:02 pm »

Quote from: zirum on May 07, 2007, 02:40:49 pm

I would agree with cncb on this, but only when cleartype is not activated...

Yeah. Since the recent changes, unless I have clear type enabled, it looks quite jaggered. I've never needed clear type before.

I thought the text looked really good up to and including build 221 (when the drop shadow was introduced). Build 222 made things look worse on all my systems.

Matt · « **Reply #19 on:** May 07, 2007, 08:31:44 pm »

Quote from: raym on May 07, 2007, 06:51:02 pm

Yeah. Since the recent changes, unless I have clear type enabled, it looks quite jaggered. I've never needed clear type before.

I thought the text looked really good up to and including build 221 (when the drop shadow was introduced). Build 222 made things look worse on all my systems.

Without clear-type, a pixel of text is either fully on or fully off. That can't look smooth, but some users will find it sharper.

However, Windows text drawing smooths screen fonts by default. MC is only honoring this setting when it uses the system API to render text onto a layer for use in Theater View.

cncb · « **Reply #20 on:** June 22, 2007, 10:25:47 am »

Sorry to bring this up again, but has anyone figured out some settings to "thin up" the text in Theater View? I am using the same font (Tahoma) in another full screen application and the text in Theater View is still noticeably "thicker" (and still doesn't look good to my eyes).

Matt · « **Reply #21 on:** June 22, 2007, 01:50:24 pm »

Hold control and spin your mouse-wheel. It'll adjust the text size used in Theater View.

cncb · « **Reply #22 on:** August 29, 2007, 10:28:21 pm »

The text size is adjusted but it still appears to be applying some extra thickness to the font as if it is bold. Here are some screenshots to demonstrate this. The first one is Theater View. The second one is an application I wrote that is using the same font as Theater View and very close to the same size/height. The application uses the "DrawString" method in .NET graphics/drawing. Note how much thinner the text is. This looks much better on my displays.

cncb · « **Reply #23 on:** September 04, 2007, 08:22:44 am »

Another easy way to see this is just to put some text in the "Visualization" window. You will see the same obvious thickness differences between the text there and the text in the Playing Now list items.

I guess nothing can or will be done about this. That's very unfortunate...

Matt · « **Reply #24 on:** September 04, 2007, 08:48:45 am »

Theater View is using a bold version of the font now.

Should it be optional?

cncb · « **Reply #25 on:** September 04, 2007, 08:50:43 am »

Yes, please.

Matt · « **Reply #26 on:** September 04, 2007, 09:17:32 am »

Quote from: cncb on September 04, 2007, 08:50:43 am

Yes, please.

Next build.

Thanks for your patience on this one.

Osho · « **Reply #27 on:** September 04, 2007, 10:22:34 pm »

Quote from: Matt on September 04, 2007, 09:17:32 am

Next build.

Thanks for your patience on this one.

Looking forward to this. This will definitely be an improvement

.

I have changed the default font to Arial Unicode and that has definitely improved the look of fonts in Theater View (you would typically have this font if you installed any version of MS Office). But, I still felt the font was a bit too "wide". Now, I know why

.

thanks,
Osho

benn600 · « **Reply #28 on:** September 04, 2007, 10:35:06 pm »

I will appreciate this as well. Thanks!

jgreen · « **Reply #29 on:** September 04, 2007, 11:20:49 pm »

cncb--

The examples in your reply #22 clearly show that there is no difference between the aliasing of the font in MC or in your comparision. Have a close look at the small "a" or "s". The remaining differences are that the MC bg is not as dark or saturated, and of course the bold font. Oh, and one other difference--your example has apparent compression artifacting in the blue, most noticable below "Audio" and "Images". You would rather have that?

I must say I won't miss the bold font, I always thought that was a wrong turn. In considering NTSC graphics, it's amazing how little variance there is: You almost never see green or red, and you never see diagonal lines.

I do like the use of true black in the new MC skin--I think that's an end run around all the blue competitors.

cncb · « **Reply #30 on:** September 05, 2007, 07:25:32 am »

Quote from: jgreen on September 04, 2007, 11:20:49 pm

Oh, and one other difference--your example has apparent compression artifacting in the blue, most noticable below "Audio" and "Images". You would rather have that?

The artifacts are most certainly due to the JPEG compression of the screenshots. You can see this in the MC screenshot as well. The purpose was to illustrate my impression that a bold font was being used.

cncb · « **Reply #31 on:** September 06, 2007, 07:02:44 am »

Quote from: Matt on September 04, 2007, 09:17:32 am

Next build.

This looks really good now - a big improvement for me. Thanks!

raym · « **Reply #32 on:** October 24, 2007, 01:27:56 am »

Quote from: Matt on September 04, 2007, 08:48:45 am

Theater View is using a bold version of the font now.

Should it be optional?

Sorry to dig this up again... It's just that on my system, I don't notice any difference b/w selecting normal over bold. Is this dependant on the actual font selected? I know the option itself is fine coz if I choose italics it's ok.

Thanks.

ThoBar · « **Reply #33 on:** October 24, 2007, 05:49:38 am »

Quote from: raym on October 24, 2007, 01:27:56 am

Sorry to dig this up again... It's just that on my system, I don't notice any difference b/w selecting normal over bold. Is this dependant on the actual font selected? I know the option itself is fine coz if I choose italics it's ok.

Thanks.

I believe so. If you select a "heavy" font, bold will often have less of an effect. The fonts I use are quite different between their bold/non-bold settings

benn600 · « **Reply #34 on:** October 25, 2007, 12:07:49 am »

Last I knew I was asking for more configuration of font size. Now, it's locked at 12pts. If this could be changed then it would be perfect. The text is too large compared to the thumbnails. Its the ratio that's the problem. If a user could change the font size percentage (not absolute points) that would cover everyone.

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Why does Theater View text look bad? (Read 8068 times)