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[sle118]

Hello all,

I downloaded and started testing MediaCenter 12 mainly for its ability to control multiple zones.

I am planning on using BlueTooth stereo devices and USB devices to broadcast to different rooms in my house. I really like the way zones are controled.

I am currently using a Audio Advantage USB Audio device, connected to a Yamaha Natural Sound Amplifier (A-520 for the ones interested). Speakers are from Bose.

This setup gives me crisp and punchy sound when using Windows Media Player.

I am really disapointed by the sound quality I get from Media Center 12.  It sounds like there is a compression effect or like there is a spacialization effect. Despite disabeling all sound post processing (filters, effects, etc), I am not getting the results I want which is pure, untouched reproduction of recordings done at maximum kbps.

This applies to all sound format I tried so far:
WMA - VBR at maximum KBPS
MP3 - VBR at Maximum KBPS

Can anyone help me get the best sound here?

[mhakman]

It is very difficult to know what can be wrong without actually digging into your settings and computer. All I can say, is that I play WAV, FLAC, MP3, WMA etc in MC12 and the sound quality is as good as my reproduction equipment allows - excellent. I disabled all filter/dsp/mixer/limiting/replay gain/resampling etc in MC12. I’m using an external USB sound card/box via DirectSound in MC12. This card is otherwise not the default in my XP setup.

[JimH]

Under MC's Player options menu, choose Playback Options / DSP Studio and turn everything off.

Also in Playback Options, try switching between Direct Sound and WAV out.

In the Windows Sound controls (double click the speaker icon in the lower right corner of your desktop), set WAVE and Master Volume up.

[Mr ChriZ]

Also thinking latterally, check to make sure WMP isn't doing
anything to the sound before sending it out, like their WOW effects
etc, it maybe that MC is playing a more accurate sound.

[Alex B]

... I am currently using a Audio Advantage USB Audio device, connected to a Yamaha Natural Sound Amplifier (A-520 for the ones interested). Speakers are from Bose.

This setup gives me crisp and punchy sound when using Windows Media Player.

I am really disapointed by the sound quality I get from Media Center 12.  It sounds like there is a compression effect or like there is a spacialization effect. Despite disabeling all sound post processing (filters, effects, etc), I am not getting the results I want which is pure, untouched reproduction of recordings done at maximum kbps.

This applies to all sound format I tried so far:
WMA - VBR at maximum KBPS
MP3 - VBR at Maximum KBPS

Can anyone help me get the best sound here?

MC12 produces pure and untouched sound quality. If the ASIO output mode is used with a sound card that has an ASIO driver the output is completely unaltered, i.e. "bit-perfect". The other output modes (Wave Out and Direct Sound) produce unaltered output, but after MC12 the signal goes through the Windows kernel mixer. This can have minor effect to the "bit-perfectness".

Have you, by the way, tried to disable all audio processing in WMP too?
Also, what is your WMP version and have you installed any sound enhancer plugins to WMP?

I believe you are not imagining the difference, but something in your setup must be producing it. Probably the reason can be found, but more information and testing on your side would be needed.

For starters, please post your system info from MC12's Help menu (Help > System Info...)
(I am mainly interested if you are using Vista since it has a new audio engine that is known to be capable of doing many kinds of audio processing.)

You could also do the following test:

- Rip a track from an audio CD in wave format with MC12. (Use a CD that is familiar to you so that you have a good idea how it should sound when played with a high quality stand-alone CD player.)
- Change MC's output mode to "Disk Writer" and play the ripped wave file once. This will create a new wave file of MC's actual output instead of passing it to the external sound drivers.
- Load these two wave files to WMP's and MC12's playing now lists and compare the audio quality of these four items. Double-check that you have all audio processing including automatic volume leveling disabled and also set the playback volume level sliders to maximum in both programs.
- Report your findings here.

[sle118]

I performed additional tests.  I went over the settings again, making sure that no effect was selected in Media Center.

This time, there was no difference between WMP AND  Media Center!  Is it possible that some of the settings become active only after a restart of Media Center? 

Anyways... I am quite happy now with MC12. I will explore it more as I think that it may be my best option for a central HTPC with multiple outputs.

I would not want to hijack my own thread, but if anyone has experience with using BlueTooth stereo devices (mine is in the mail) like the iTech Clip R35?

I am not familiar with the ASIO driver. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

[Alex B]

I performed additional tests.  I went over the settings again, making sure that no effect was selected in Media Center.

This time, there was no difference between WMP AND  Media Center!  Is it possible that some of the settings become active only after a restart of Media Center?  ...

It would have been nice to know what caused the sound problem, but that may be difficult if it is gone now. AFAIK, all DSP options should take place immediately or after playback is stopped and restarted depending on the option.

... I am not familiar with the ASIO driver. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

A short explanation of ASIO: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_stream_input_output

Many audiophile grade sound cards provide an ASIO option. However, if your sound device didn't came with ASIO drivers you don't need to worry. The standard Direct Sound and Wave Out output modes are capable of producing just fine audio quality. ASIO's main advantage is its low latency, which has no importance in standard audio playback.

[Mr ChriZ]

I use a Logitec BlueTooth gizmo i forget what it's called, it's designed for IPod,
but can be used with anything with a headphone jack plug.
One of these:
http://reviews.cnet.com/home-entertainment/logitech-wireless-music-system/4505-6449_7-31481910.html

It's not bad, I don't think the sound quality is lossless but it's quite listenable
to, I've got it plugged into a Denon Amp, Mission Speakers.

[JONCAT]

I have bad luck with Bluetooth devices (what's the bandwith on Bluetooth?)....maybe a Squeezbox or Airport Express is what you need.

DC

[glynor]

(what's the bandwith on Bluetooth?)

Bluetooth 1.1 and 1.2: 723.1 kbps
Bluetooth 2.0: 2.1 mbps

Both suffer from somewhat serious interference issues, which can somewhat reduce throughput.  There are also codec and DRM issues with most Bluetooth profiles used with the current generation of audio interfaces.

More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Audio_Distribution_Profile

[sle118]

Bluetooth 1.1 and 1.2: 723.1 kbps
Bluetooth 2.0: 2.1 mbps

Both suffer from somewhat serious interference issues, which can somewhat reduce throughput.  There are also codec and DRM issues with most Bluetooth profiles used with the current generation of audio interfaces.

More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Audio_Distribution_Profile

I wasn't aware of bandwith / interference issues with Bluetooth.  Let's hope a good antenna on the workstation will make the throughput acceptable in my house.  Other solutions like Squeezbox are not acceptable because it is impossible to synchronize zones...

My fallback plan is a modified FM Transmitter that has a better antenna. This is sufficient for a regular size home and provides decent sound quality over common radio frequencies.  I wanted to go with BlueTooth because I thought it would provide better sound quality (being digital and all, you know...)

Media Center 12 is the most exciting player I have seen in a decade.  I am amazed and wonder where I was all these years 

[sle118]

It would have been nice to know what caused the sound problem, but that may be difficult if it is gone now. AFAIK, all DSP options should take place immediately or after playback is stopped and restarted depending on the option.

A short explanation of ASIO: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_stream_input_output

Many audiophile grade sound cards provide an ASIO option. However, if your sound device didn't came with ASIO drivers you don't need to worry. The standard Direct Sound and Wave Out output modes are capable of producing just fine audio quality. ASIO's main advantage is its low latency, which has no importance in standard audio playback.

 I noticed this morning that the loudness was enabled for the card's output in windows control panel and disabled it.  This may have impacted the playback quality somehow (although it would have had the same effect on WMP as well...) but I like the sound "clean" from post-processing.

Found ASIO4ALL. I will give it a try.  I am still using the generic windows driver.

[newsposter]

The freqs that Bluetooth uses correspond roughly with the same freqs used by lots of other consumer devices such as cordless phones, WiFi, and microwave ovens.

BT is designed for ranges UP TO dozens of feet and is not intended to work reliably through buildings, walls, floors, pets, etc, etc.  So it's more than possible (likely?!?) that any or all of the above devices will zap your Bluetooth audio plans.

All of this info is freely available on the web if you care to do some research.

[Mr ChriZ]

I find my Logitec gizmo goes through one floor + one wall.
Distance tends to be the most noticable thing.
It will make it to the back of the house, from the front of the house with
no noticable drop in quality, however go up a floor at the back of the house,
and it just stops working.

[JONCAT]

Checkout the Airport Express info via Rogue Amoeba web site.  I haven't tried it yet, but you would be able to send audio to multiple airports at once, and hopefully have them all synced. I'll email them tonight about it. I know their is a delay which makes video impossible to sync with audio but a stream to multiple airports might work. And you get some access points....


DC

[Mr ChriZ]

I've just realised the biggest downside to Bluetooth.
It fights for the same Frequencies as WiFi.
When I''ve got a WiFi connection in close vicinity
my Logitec Gizmo seems to block it!

[Edit] Oh Newsposters already pointed that one out.
Hmm!

[newsposter]

Yup, beware anything and everything that runs in the 2400mhz band.

[Mr ChriZ]

Interestingly my mates MacBook Pro has an anti interferance option,
which allows it to carry on working fine.

I'm becoming more and more convinced I want a Mac everyday.

[JustinChase]

I thought I'd just post my feedback/observations here.  I just bought a Jensen WTB431 USB transmitter/receiver which I have plugged into a USB hub on my desktop; and a Jensen WTB310 Stereo Audio receiver which I have plugged into my Marantz home receiver, about 15 feet away (no walls).

It took me a few minutes to find the option in MC to send sound over the bluetooth device, but once I had it set, and got the bluetooth devices paired, I've got great sound.

I have not tested at extreme volumes yet, but after several hours of listening, I have no dropouts, or artifacts.  I ended up going with bluetooth because the cable I had strung from the laptop to the receiver was picking up all kinds of interference and the buzzing was simply unacceptable.

I bought both bluetooth items brand new for under $30 total (cheaper than a good 20' cable), and they are working great!

I do have a question though.  Since I switched to using the bluetooth for sending the signal, the volume control in MC no longer has any effect on the sound level.  I can see how this could be good in many instances, but I do prefer having the control on my desktop, as opposed to having to use the receiver volume control.

Is there any way to give this control back to MC when using the bluetooth?

[ThoBar]

Just thought I'd chip in with another type of option here... http://www.auzentech.com/kiosk/product_sirocco.php
No intereference with wireles, because it uses wireless I can't comment on usability or quality as I have never seen one in action.

[gappie]

I do have a question though.  Since I switched to using the bluetooth for sending the signal, the volume control in MC no longer has any effect on the sound level.  I can see how this could be good in many instances, but I do prefer having the control on my desktop, as opposed to having to use the receiver volume control.

Is there any way to give this control back to MC when using the bluetooth?

have you checked that the volumecontrol is using internal volume instead of system volume?

[mhakman]

have you checked that the volumecontrol is using internal volume instead of system volume?

Internal volume control works only for plain music (CD, mp3, flac etc.) but not for DVD and video audio because then MC doesn’t intercept the audio stream at all. Also if you turn down the volume a lot using internal (or even system) volume control, the audio quality will be less than when outputting full scale and controlling the volume on your receiver.

[gappie]

Internal volume control works only for plain music (CD, mp3, flac etc.) but not for DVD and video audio because then MC doesn’t intercept the audio stream at all. Also if you turn down the volume a lot using internal (or even system) volume control, the audio quality will be less than when outputting full scale and controlling the volume on your receiver.

im sending out my audio using asio over firewire. since a few builds internal volume works over all channels also with video. at least on my system.
i know about turning back the volume a lot. but it is a solution for this:

I do have a question though.  Since I switched to using the bluetooth for sending the signal, the volume control in MC no longer has any effect on the sound level.  I can see how this could be good in many instances, but I do prefer having the control on my desktop, as opposed to having to use the receiver volume control.

Is there any way to give this control back to MC when using the bluetooth?

[mhakman]

...since a few builds internal volume works over all channels also with video. at least on my system.

I didn't know that, many thanks for info!

[JustinChase]

have you checked that the volumecontrol is using internal volume instead of system volume?

That worked for me.  Thanks!!