INTERACT FORUM

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??  (Read 4466 times)

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14463
  • I won! I won!

OK - I've got my LG GGC-H20 combo BluRay / HD-DVD Player installed only a few hours ago and I've got about 5 days before we go on summer holidays - so what should I try with MC12 and this drive?  I've got installed the following programs and their relevant filters:
- Slysoft AnyDVD HD: got the trial to remove AACS / HDCP if they cause issues with my setup
- Nero 8:  Can play individal BluRay M2TS files just fine
- Power DVD: Complains that the Graphics Driver is wrong....

My aim is to get some or all of the following workings:
1a) Play BluRay / HD-DVD disks directly from MC12 OR
1b) Launch a 3rd party BluRay / HD-DVD SW from MC12 (eg Nero Showtime???)
2) Play BlyRay / HD-DVD ripped content on my HDD from MC12

Any suggestions welcome!!!

Thanks
Nathan
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

glynor

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 19608
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2007, 08:57:48 am »

I'm not going to be much help, but I'm definitely interested to see how it goes.

Especially considering this: http://techreport.com/discussions.x/13740
Logged
"Some cultures are defined by their relationship to cheese."

Visit me on the Interweb Thingie: http://glynor.com/

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14463
  • I won! I won!
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2007, 02:13:07 pm »

I've upgraded to V7.3 of PowerDVD and it now plays the BluRay disks fine.  A good thing is it also works with the same MCE remote commands as MC12 so that is nice and easy.

I've been just using Black Hawk Down to test so far at it is a 1920x1080p MPEG 2 Video Stream and a DD5.1 Audio Steam muxed in a M2TS container.  PowerDVD has been using DirectShow filters to play it.
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

glynor

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 19608
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2007, 10:05:09 pm »

What kind of system are you running it on?

MPEG-2 should be fine, of course.  The real test is the H264 encoded stuff (and some VC-1)...
Logged
"Some cultures are defined by their relationship to cheese."

Visit me on the Interweb Thingie: http://glynor.com/

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14463
  • I won! I won!
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2007, 10:49:07 pm »

You would think so - so far I'm at:
1a) no chance for now (you would need the keys etc)
1b) I can launch PowerDVD HD and play both BluRay & HD-DVD disks both on insert and also from a T'View button.  Only problem is when the disk is finished or stoped control is not passed back to MC12 as the PowerDVD player stays on top.  Have e-mail Cyberlink to see if there is a switch / option that can be used.
2a) Ripped BluRay content (using Black Hawk Down) - You end up with a whole bunch of files on your HDD but the ones of interest are the big *.m2ts files which are muxed 1920x1080p MPEG 2 files running up to 25mpbs (eg nothing special) with 6 audio channels.  I can play these using Nero Showtime and see the filters being slected.  So far I've not had much lick yet in getting the right filter combo in MC12 as running these files causes MC12 to hang (I think it is caused by the selected Audio Stream as I get a brief perfect image and the DD indicator on the AV Receiver starts stuttering - could be the FFDSHOW Audio filter that keeps loading....no idea why)
2b) Ripped HD-DVD content (using 300) - You end up with a whole bunch of files on your HDD but the interesting ones are the *.evo files which in this case are muxed VC1 video + a heap of audio - not yet had much of a play....

I've now got more filters that I can poke a stick at on this PC thanks to PowerDVD and Nero 8 - I'd love to be able to know what filters PowerDVD loads when playing these disks - is threre a prog that lets you view this (Nero 8 displays it in the info area).

Thanks
Nathan
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14463
  • I won! I won!
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2007, 03:35:28 am »

I've addressed the problem of mismatched refresh rates causing judder from a suggestions over at AVS
Quote
Use .bat files comprised of ResChange (http://www.softpedia.com/progDownload/ResChange-Download-4158.html) to set up different commands to run with different resolutions.

I've added a 24hz and a 50hz (I'm in PAL land) buttons in T'View to manuall switch the PC's refresh rate to suit BluRay / HD-DVD (1080/20p) or local media & DVB-T (50hz)....may look at assigning these to a button on the RC at some point...  At some point it may also be worth looking at how MC12 can dynamically change the refresh rate based on media type.

Thanks
Nathan
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

glynor

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 19608
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2007, 08:30:09 am »

I've now got more filters that I can poke a stick at on this PC thanks to PowerDVD and Nero 8 - I'd love to be able to know what filters PowerDVD loads when playing these disks - is threre a prog that lets you view this (Nero 8 displays it in the info area).

If they're external to PowerDVD's process, Process Explorer should tell you the file names at least...

The audio problem is that FFDSHOW (and most other DirectShow filters) doesn't (yet) support E-AC3, which is the most common codec used to compress the audio on HD-DVD and BluRay.  After you rip the files to your hard drive, it'd be much more widely compatible if you then converted the files over to MKV or MP4 files (probably MKV if you want to keep the AC3 audio intact).

There's a fairly nice guide at Doom9 here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=129001

And a nice accumulation of links for general HD decryping and playback info here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=123282

NOTE: They generally don't discuss AnyDVD on Doom9 because it isn't open source (and costs real money) and they're afraid if they come to rely on it and SlySoft ever gets shut down that everyone will be in deep.  However, generally everyone seems to recommend it if your level of technical expertise is not "high".  I'd probably definitely invest in AnyDVD myself if I was going to buy a HD optical drive at this point.
Logged
"Some cultures are defined by their relationship to cheese."

Visit me on the Interweb Thingie: http://glynor.com/

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14463
  • I won! I won!
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2007, 02:33:34 pm »

Thanks - I'd read the Doom9 stuff yeasterday and my first throught was "I'm not that keen"!  Generally, I'm not one for transcoding (eg I use DVD Decrypter to pull out the main movie and the audio track of preference as one simple file) - I'd rather get my player to support the file format than the other way around!  Generaly the need to play ripped content is a lower level need for me as (more of an exercise) as at 30GB a movie I'm happy to drop the BluRay / HD-DVD disk into the machine (1TB Drives just don't seem very big any more!)

On the playback front I'm happy to say it is working better than expected - we watched about half of Apocalypso last night (too graphic for my Wife).  The image quality is great, 24Hz mode a real bonus to smooth playback (got to get that bit better automated at some point), and the HTPC plays the disks "mostly" stutter free (the odd sutter here or there).  Not to bad for the G33 chip set really, but still got a couple of kinks to work out like no sound over HDMI (I'm using S'PDIF so stuck with DD5.1 but would prefer 5.1 PCM!).

Thanks
Nathan
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14463
  • I won! I won!
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2007, 06:24:44 pm »

2a) Ripped BluRay content (using Black Hawk Down):  As expected this plays fine in MC12 when you get the right filters going (good old Nero Splitter to the rescue).  Now this title has 6 Audio Tracks with the main ones being DD5.1 (Track 0) and PCM5.1 (Tack 1), with additional DD5.1 (other lang) and DD2.0 (commentary).  I've been unable to play the PCM5.1 Track on either of my systems so far and I'm sure that DD+ and HDDD / DTS will also cause problems till the correct filters are founds (note: 1 issue is that anything greater than DD5.1 will not work over S/PDIF, so if you want to feed this formats to your AV Receiver you will have to pass it over HDMI or decode and pass as analoge anyway).

Process to date is to:
- rip to the HDD,
- determine which of the m2ts in the \57760311_BLACK_HAWK_DOWN\BDMV\STREAM directory contians the main prog (in this case it is 00000.m2ts and 00001.m2ts)
- join the two (or more) by using "copy /b 00000.m2ts + 00001.m2ts "BlackHawkDown.m2t" to one big 37GB file!!!! (note the different destination file type as MC12 does not have a *.m2ts)
- set MC12 up with the "Nero Splitter" and away you go.

2b) Ripped BluRay content (using 300):  No real update yet as I've not found a container / file extension to change the EVO file extension to that MC will attempt to open yet.  I've got the cyberlink VC-1 filter on the system but I've got to get the filter graphs going first (looks ugly in .....

Thanks
Nathan
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14463
  • I won! I won!
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2007, 06:28:14 pm »

Not a very encoraging report back from Cyberlink on PowerDVD Ultra

Questions to Cyberlink:

Hi, I've got V7.5 (after free upgrade of the OEM version that came with the LG GGV-H20 combo BluRay / HD-DVD Drive) but have a couple of questions I can not find the answer for:
1) Sound Over HDMI (I'd like to output the 5.1PCM track over HDMI) - I can output sound over S/PDIF but not HDMI (works on all other programs just for PDVD)
2) Integration with HTPC Front End - I can start up PDVD from inside my HTPC SW (JR Media Center) and control it with my MCE RC just fine but would like PDVD to close OR handback control to the HTPC SW when playback is finished or stoped. Are there any switches (or other means) to enable this?
3) 1080/24p Support - Can PDVD be configured to dynamically change the video output to 1080/24p when playing BluRay / HD-DVD then revert to the previous resolution / timing settings when playback is finished?

Response from Cyberlink:

Thank you for contacting CyberLink Online Customer Support.

In regard to your issue, we regret to say that all the 3 points which you have mentioned in your email are not supported PowerDVD Ultra software and therefore will not work. The PowerDVD Ultra is not designed to provide such features.

We regret the inconvenience you have encountered so far.
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72438
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2007, 06:28:42 pm »

Tell your wife that she's an angel to go along with all the pioneering HTPC work you're doing.  We owe her.
Logged

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14463
  • I won! I won!
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2007, 06:33:32 pm »

Wife responds with a "Hmmm" and a roll of the eyes  ;D (the rest of the familly are cleaning the house as I get to "play")
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

JimH

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 72438
  • Where did I put my teeth?
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2007, 06:44:11 pm »

Tell her I'll take it.  That's enough.
Logged

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14463
  • I won! I won!
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2007, 06:46:34 pm »

One Odd Thing with the M2TS Files is the reported running lengths (in both MC12 and Showtime):
- 00000.m2ts claims to run from 0:00 to 0:54:39
- 00001.m2ts claims to run from 0:00 to 1:29:39
- BlackHawkDown.m2t claims to run from 0:00 to 1:29:39 with the "join" now reported as 0:34:39 or some 20mins earlier than 0000.m2ts.  I've not put a stop watch over the lot but I "assume" that the total lengh is correct and is meta data being pulled from the Transport Steam in these files....

Nathan


EDIT - The reported length in the new combined files is wrong - If you play it from the begining it gets to 1:29:39 and just keeps playing while about 3/4 of the way through the movie.  Moving the slider accuratly moves you through the movie but then the time displayed is wrong
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14463
  • I won! I won!
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2007, 11:29:58 pm »

Spent the day looking at how to Integrate PowerDVD's Blu Ray / HD-DVD Playback from MC12 Theater View for us RC users.  I'll post the full details later but basically have it working by:
1) Add "Blu-Ray & HD-DVD" button to TheaterView that calls a batchfile which inturn
     - closed MC12 (having T'View running causes playback stutter in PowerDVD - too much DirectDraw happening I'm guessing!)
     - changes the Refresh Rate to 24hz
     - runs PowerDVD
when Power DVD closes the batchfile then runs
     - changes the Refersh Rate to 50i
     - runs MC12

2) Using the AutoHotkey I've got a script that traps the "BACK" button from the MCE RC (browser back) when PowerDVD is running then:
     - Closes Power DVD
     - changes the Refersh Rate to 50i
     - runs MC12

So the effect so far is:
* You select the "Blu-Ray & HD-DVD" button from T'View and it plays the disk in drive D:
* MCE Remote works the disk just like a DVD
* You press "Back" and you go back to the front page of T'View Front Page (just like pressing "Back" from any other sub menu)

Still got problems trying to assign a program / batch file to Vista's Auto run (you only seem to get a predefined list in the drop down options and even MC12 is not one!) - So for now this is off.

Thanks
Nathan
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

glynor

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 19608
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2007, 11:17:11 pm »

Spent the day looking at how to Integrate PowerDVD's Blu Ray / HD-DVD Playback from MC12 Theater View for us RC users.  I'll post the full details later but basically have it working by:
1) Add "Blu-Ray & HD-DVD" button to TheaterView that calls a batchfile which inturn
     - closed MC12 (having T'View running causes playback stutter in PowerDVD - too much DirectDraw happening I'm guessing!)
     - changes the Refresh Rate to 24hz
     - runs PowerDVD
when Power DVD closes the batchfile then runs
     - changes the Refersh Rate to 50i
     - runs MC12

2) Using the AutoHotkey I've got a script that traps the "BACK" button from the MCE RC (browser back) when PowerDVD is running then:
     - Closes Power DVD
     - changes the Refersh Rate to 50i
     - runs MC12

This sounds like a job for Girder.  Instead of trapping the hotkey, which is a little kludgy, if you just had girder you could have it watch for PowerDVD to close and have it auto-run whatever you want.  It can do fancy stuff like that really easily, and change refresh rates and the whole bit.  But, I suppose your way works and its free, and perhaps the back button does make pretty good sense!

The performance hit with TheaterView and PowerDVD running HD is most likely due to those onboard graphics (wink, wink).  I am curious about all this.  I'll have to check out performance on my system, though if it is bringing down yours... (This is the Kentsfield Q6600 box, right?)
Logged
"Some cultures are defined by their relationship to cheese."

Visit me on the Interweb Thingie: http://glynor.com/

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14463
  • I won! I won!
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2007, 11:59:52 pm »

I figured girder (and no doubt others) could do it but I'd stumbled onto AutoHotKey (freeware and a strong community who pretty much scripted all the bits for me) and now have it all scripted in that - I'll post it later and it all seems to work pretty well.

I think the issues is with T'View DirectDraw stuff happening at the same time as it is not a problem if in StdView and regardless of the combinations it does to seem to stress the Q6600 - all four cores runaround 25-50% pending on the encoding.

THanks
Nathan
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14463
  • I won! I won!
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2007, 03:21:39 am »

Only 1 day left!  So before I post in the main forum this is where I got with the pseudo integration of Blu-ray & HD-DVD playback into MC12 TheaterView.  It works pretty well but native support in MC12 would be ideal of course.  Any comments?
Thanks
Nathan

=====================
Background:  At the moment there is no way of playing Blu-ray or HD-DVD disks in MC12 especially for us Remote Control TheaterView users!  While the good folk at JR work on adding this feature here is a workaround I've got going on my HTPC (Shuttle SG33G5, inbuilt G33 graphics Quad Core, 2GB, Vista-32Bit, HDMI & S'PDIF Output, MCE Remote Control) I thought I would share.  Caveat Emptor - While it works for me you are going to have to have to edit the script to get it working the way you want.

What it does:  It is pretty simple (now I've got it working). 
1) When you insert a Blu-ray / HD-DVD disk (when Autoplay is set to PowerDVD for these) or you select the "Blu-ray & HD-DVD" MC TheaterView button, it:
     - Closes MC12 (it's alright it will come back later but it frees up resources that was causing stuttering on my system)
     - Sets the graphics card to 24hz (note most Blu-ray & HD-DVD are in 1080p/24 so this helps avoid judder IF your TV and Graphics card supports 24hz or a multiple of this)
     - Moves the mouse off the right hand side of the screen (some bug in PowerDVD leaves the mouse visible sometimes....)
2) Just like with DVD Playback, when you press the "STOP" button on your Remote Control you end up back in MC TheaterView, as it:
     - Closes PowerDVD
     - Sets the graphics card back to 50hz (or 60Hz for you NTSC types)
     - Runs MC12

Requirements:  Your going to need to have installed and working in their own right:
1) Blu-ray / HD-DVD Player (eg LG's new combo drive is under US$300)
2) Cyberlink PowerDVD HD (comes with the LG drive but you need to do the free upgrade over the web to get it to work)
3) AutoHotkey ( http://www.autohotkey.com/ this is a freebie scripting app that does all the work, there will be others apps like Girder but you will need to create your own script)
4) JR Media Center 12 of course!

What you need to do:  Here is how to configure the lot to work together:
1) In MC12 "Tools --> Options --> Theaterview --> Add (Items To Show) --> Custom Items" and in the three fields enter: Name:Blu-ray & HD-DVD  Type:Program  Parameter:"C:\Program Files\CyberLink\PowerDVD\PowerDVD.exe" d: (note: including the ", the path for your PowerDVD install and the drive letter that is your Blu-ray / HD-DVD Drive)
2) Add AutoHotKey to your startup folder (it needs to run when Windows Boots up or nothing will happen)
3) Edit (to suit your needs) and add the script in the AutoHotkey.txt attachment (or use it to replace) AutoHotKey's default AutoHotkey.ahk replacing all the standard stuff in that file.  Now this is where you need to be careful especially that you specify resolutions and refresh rates that you equipment support (Monitor/TV, Graphics Card etc) - make sure it works as the script will try to force your settings and I've read that you can apparently damage equipment that does not support it.  Also there is no "reverting in 15-Sec routine".  To help, look for the you can change to suit your requirements comments in the script.  If you don't want to make any changes to refresh rates at the moment OR your equipment dislikes having the refresh rate changed on it (I had a older plasma that used to object) then you should change the variables in both sections to that of your current video settings (that way nothing will happen).

Good Luck and here is hoping that the JR Lads have inbuilt Blu-ray / HD-DVD support soon!
Nathan

Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

glynor

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 19608
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2007, 09:17:12 am »

I think the issues is with T'View DirectDraw stuff happening at the same time as it is not a problem if in StdView and regardless of the combinations it does to seem to stress the Q6600 - all four cores runaround 25-50% pending on the encoding.

No, you're right that it is Direct3D that is causing the slowdown.  That's because of those crappy onboard graphics though.  A "real" video card would render all that "DirectDraw stuff" in the GPU and wouldn't put any additional load on the CPUs.

Interesting that you do see utilization of around 50% even with that relatively god-level CPU... I assume the highest loads would be with H264 content.  Are you running that CPU at stock speeds or do you have it OC'd?  (If you aren't OCing, you might want to try... Most of the Kentsfields, especially the newer G0 stepping ones, will overclock to 3.0GHz with no extra voltage and extremely minimal effort.)

I'm wondering how my MacPro would handle this in Windows... It's effectively a similar system (two, dual-core Xeon CPUs).  They have a higher clockspeed (3.0GHz) but they have a slightly lower FSB (and on Intel's Quads or dual-socket CPUs they communicate over the FSB).  I'm also looking at upgrading my HTPC to a Core2 box, and I'm wondering on how a Quad would compare to a dual-core right now (or if my money would be better spent on a video card)...  I'm leaning towards the video card, because the Quad would only help a few applications, Theater View obviously likes it, I could get one with H264 acceleration (I'm thinking either the 8800GT or the HD 3850 cards), and I do sometimes like to game on my HTPC (and will probably do more if I get a shiny new HDTV for the living room).  I'm not planning on getting one now, but perhaps this summer I'll be looking at a HD optical drive of some kind...

There are other options though... If I really think I'll do most gaming on the new HTPC, then I could certainly just steal the X1900XT out of my office machine (and buy a very low-end cheap GPU for it) and throw that in the new HTPC.  That savings would give me more than enough to shell out on a Quad.  Of course, then I'd be down one gaming box (and my downstairs machine is nice for that, since it lets me play while my wife watches TV).
Logged
"Some cultures are defined by their relationship to cheese."

Visit me on the Interweb Thingie: http://glynor.com/

Doof

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 5908
  • Farm Animal Stupid
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2007, 09:58:29 am »

Out of curiosity, what's the need for setting refresh rate to 24Hz?
Logged

glynor

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 19608
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2007, 01:10:45 pm »

Out of curiosity, what's the need for setting refresh rate to 24Hz?

It's basically because he's in PAL-land.  The standard Frame Rate for film is 24fps.  PAL uses a standard frame rate of 25fps (progressive) or 50 fields/sec (interlaced).  Unfortunately, unlike with NTSC, this means there is no easy way to convert the video signal to 24fps.  The result is that either: (a) you run content that was designed for 24fps at 25fps (which makes everyone go a little faster than they are supposed to), or (b) you do fancy retiming in software.  Jmone experienced a common problem with option B in that he experienced significant "telecine judder" (unsmooth motion, especially noticeable with medium speed pans and other similar effects).

Those of us in NTSC-land (US, Canada, and Japan among other random countries) don't have as many issues with this because our "pulldown pattern" used to convert 24fps to 29.97fps is much simpler.  A standard NTSC TV runs at 29.97fps (progressive) or 59.94 fields/sec (interlaced).  To display 24fps content on these televisions, you can use a simple 3:2 pulldown pattern.  This is accomplished in two steps:

1. The film frame rate is dropped slightly to 23.976 fps.  This change is imperceptible from the original 24fps footage.
2. 3:2 pulldown is added to convert 23.976fps film to 29.97fps video.  You may have noticed that 23.976 is exactly 4/5 of 29.97.  This works out well, and allows you to exploit the interlaced nature of video to correct for this frame rate difference.  It works like this:

Say you have 4 frames of film, which you want to transfer to video (obviously you would have a lot more than 4 frames, but keeping the example simple).  These frames can be labeled A, B, C, D.  Now, because video is interlaced, it actually has fields, not frames (the first field from each frame is all of the odd numbered lines, then the next is all the even numbered lines).  So, what you do is you transfer those 4 frames of film to 5 frames of video by repeating a couple of fields in a 3:2 pattern, like this:

Video Frame 1 Field 1 = Frame A
Video Frame 1 Field 2 = Frame A
Video Frame 2 Field 1 = Frame A
Video Frame 2 Field 2 = Frame B
Video Frame 3 Field 1 = Frame B
Video Frame 3 Field 2 = Frame C
Video Frame 4 Field 1 = Frame C
Video Frame 4 Field 2 = Frame C
Video Frame 5 Field 1 = Frame D
Video Frame 5 Field 2 = Frame D

As you can see, after this fourth original frame, you've "fixed" the cycle (the original frame begins and ends in the same video field) and you can go back to the beginning of the pattern and start over.  It basically just repeats this pattern over and over.  It does make every other frame of video last a tiny fraction of a second longer than it "should" but because the TVs are interlaced you can't tell (because those elongated frames are "mixed" on screen with the proper frame).

Then, if you have a progressive scan TV and/or DVD player, it knows how to recognize this pattern and remove it to display only the original pristine frames.  This is known as "reverse telecine".  It simply recognizes and discards the mixed frames and only plays the proper frames as they were originally shot.

However, when you're in PAL-land, everything isn't so easy.  To accomplish the same effect for PAL, they need to use a pattern called 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3 pulldown.  As you can probably guess, this is far less ideal and a lot harder to accomplish effectively.  It essentially makes every 12th frame display for 3 PAL fields.  Unfortunately, because of PAL's lower interlaced speed (50 vs. 59.94), the effect is far more noticeable.  Also, reverse telecine requires much longer framebuffers (12 frames rather than only 5), which means you need higher-end hardware.  As you can probably guess, it is less effective (due to cheap hardware)...

In the old days of PAL, they used to just run all 24fps content at 25fps.  This eliminated the need for fancy conversion and more expensive hardware, but it makes everyone run a little faster, and more disturbingly it makes the audio a little higher-pitched and faster.  So, if you don't want everyone to sound a little like Alvin and the Chipmunks, you need to do the above pulldown system...

So, to remove the need to do any of this, you can run your display at 24fps (assuming you have a monitor that can do that refresh rate).  Running at 24fps isn't ideal for most other fast-motion though, as it will make fast animations and other on-screen effects look "jerky" (ever notice that no one does really fast pans in movies?  That's because of the low 24fps frame rate!).  It also looks terrible with other fast-motion content recorded at high frame rates (especially sports).  So, unless you switch your monitor back and forth, your stuck with either (a) bad fast-motion, or (b) bad movie framerate conversion.

Make more sense?
Logged
"Some cultures are defined by their relationship to cheese."

Visit me on the Interweb Thingie: http://glynor.com/

Alex B

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 10121
  • The Cosmic Bird
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2007, 02:30:28 pm »

Thanks glynor. It's a good reply.

However the following is a bit exaggerated.

So, if you don't want everyone to sound a little like Alvin and the Chipmunks, you need to do the above pulldown system..

It doesn't sound even a little like chipmunks, only a very slightly higher pitched. The difference between 24 and 25 fps is really quite small (about 4%).

Most of the commercial DVDs here in EU are in the speeded up 25 fps PAL format as a well as the television versions of movies. Possibly the DVDs of big feature films have an audio pitch correction (which can lower the pitch without affecting the tempo), but I have no confirmed knowledge about that.

On the other hand 25 fps PAL is supposed to be able to display slow pans and that kind of stuff smoother than the 3:2 pull down system in 29.97 fps NTSC. In the PAL system each film frame is shown in the original sequence.
Logged
The Cosmic Bird - a triple merger of galaxies: http://eso.org/public/news/eso0755

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14463
  • I won! I won!
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2007, 02:42:57 pm »

Glynor is right.  The problem is Film is 24fps, which is just "different" to the historic frequencies used by TV (25p/50i and 29.97p/59.94p NTSC).  There are a range of different techniques to convert your 24fps film to your desired frequence.  

Conversion for Interlaced Transmition:  One is set of techniques are termed as Telecline (after the machine that did the conversion) and as Glynor pointed out, 3:2 become the defacto standed for conversion to NTSC interlaced transmision.  For PAL they just speed it up 5% (fyi the argument is we don't notice the small pitch change).  These techniques work well for TV and standard DVD's etc on interlaced TV's.

Flat Panels:  Once the move to Flat Panels become more widespread other options opened up due to their progressive nature and the ability to accept wider frequences.  You started to see techniques such as reverse 3:2 Telecline Pulldown so they could "rebuild" the original 24fps film from a 59.94 NTSC 3:2 Teleclined signal (eg from a film transfered DVD)

Blu-ray / HD-DVD:  Theatracal releases on these formats have so far all been 24p transfers so you have a couple of options:
1) Change the TV's display to 24p (or a multiple) to match - This is the best option by far (if you TV supports it) as it removes any conversion.  Players like the PS/3 can do this automatically, they read the format on the disk then change their output signal to matach.  Similar frequence mismatches occur when playing PAL50hz material on NTSC60hz equipment and vice versa.
2) Change the Blu-ray / HD-DVD output to 50/60hz to match your display device - This is the only option if your TV does not support 24hz (or a multiple) but almost all recent flat panels do.  Unfortunatly you are going to introduce some conversion effects, its just if you are going to be annoyed by it (I certainly am).

Being in Australia (PAL) but having media from all sources I have my TV set to 1920x1080/50hz as this suits our TV Transmition freq and locally purchased DVD's.  It does not suit NTSC files and disks or Blu-ray / HD-DVD's.  

Building this into MC12:  I know MC already has the option to change resolution between the desktop and playing media BUT what would be great is if we could specify a Video output for each content (or content type).  I'd love to be able to specify in MC to change the outputs between 1920x1080/50hz (for DVT-B, PAL DVD's, and 25p / 50i files), 1920x1080/60 (for NTSC Disks and 30p / 60i files), and finally 1920x1080/24hz (for Blu-ray, HD-DVD and 24p files).  This could be done by reading the existing Meta Data or by having a new field such as "Output Resolution".

Thanks
Nathan
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14463
  • I won! I won!
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2007, 02:49:42 pm »

No, you're right that it is Direct3D that is causing the slowdown.  That's because of those crappy onboard graphics though.  A "real" video card would render all that "DirectDraw stuff" in the GPU and wouldn't put any additional load on the CPUs.

Interesting that you do see utilization of around 50% even with that relatively god-level CPU... I assume the highest loads would be with H264 content.  Are you running that CPU at stock speeds or do you have it OC'd?  (If you aren't OCing, you might want to try... Most of the Kentsfields, especially the newer G0 stepping ones, will overclock to 3.0GHz with no extra voltage and extremely minimal effort.)

I'm wondering how my MacPro would handle this in Windows... It's effectively a similar system (two, dual-core Xeon CPUs).  They have a higher clockspeed (3.0GHz) but they have a slightly lower FSB (and on Intel's Quads or dual-socket CPUs they communicate over the FSB).  I'm also looking at upgrading my HTPC to a Core2 box, and I'm wondering on how a Quad would compare to a dual-core right now (or if my money would be better spent on a video card)...  I'm leaning towards the video card, because the Quad would only help a few applications, Theater View obviously likes it, I could get one with H264 acceleration (I'm thinking either the 8800GT or the HD 3850 cards), and I do sometimes like to game on my HTPC (and will probably do more if I get a shiny new HDTV for the living room).  I'm not planning on getting one now, but perhaps this summer I'll be looking at a HD optical drive of some kind...

There are other options though... If I really think I'll do most gaming on the new HTPC, then I could certainly just steal the X1900XT out of my office machine (and buy a very low-end cheap GPU for it) and throw that in the new HTPC.  That savings would give me more than enough to shell out on a Quad.  Of course, then I'd be down one gaming box (and my downstairs machine is nice for that, since it lets me play while my wife watches TV).

Yes in is the Direct3D in Theaterview that cases the issues but have now (and now out of time) to look any further.  I've so far kept everything stock standard (no OC etc) as this is purely a HTPC (no games) etc and Video just ain't that intensive (however Fall of Man looked / sounded great from the PS3 on this setup but that my son's domain - I'm just not a gamer).  That said the VC-1 decoding takes all four cores up to 50%ish so a far bit is happening in the CPU.  I'm really happy with the inbuilt G33 as I had nothing but problems with the nVidia cards (incl 7600GS passive cooled) in Vista (especially with HW decoding on).  The G33 output is the best I've so far seen on an HTPC, it's quite and cool!
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

glynor

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 19608
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2007, 03:13:35 pm »

Thanks glynor. It's a good reply.

However the following is a bit exaggerated.

It doesn't sound even a little like chipmunks, only a very slightly higher pitched. The difference between 24 and 25 fps is really quite small (about 4%).

I know.  I was exaggerating a bit to make the point.   ;)

I'll agree.... PAL is better in almost every conceivable way except:
a. we get a higher frame rate in interlaced mode (nice for sports)
b. slightly easier film telecine conversion (cheaper hardware)

It really is too bad that they didn't take the opportunity afforded by the HDTV conversion to unify the standards more.  Alas, such is life in video engineering!

And, yes, for the vast majority of footage, simply running the video 4% faster is the easiest and most effective option.  However, looking at it from a editor's perspective.... I may have spent countless hours getting music timed to action in frame precisely, and while running it at 104% might not seem bad to you, it can sometimes change the "feel" of the video even if slightly.  This is certainly most apparent with music videos and similar applications (I doubt Richard D. James would appreciate his videos running a bit too fast).  However, there are certainly film examples as well...  Baraka is one that comes to mind immediately.

I've watched plenty of speeded up PAL transfers (we have a PAL box or two lying around here, just in case)... Most things you wouldn't notice... Some things it makes it feel ever so slightly more "manic" than the original (particularly when the original is already a bit manic).  Some things (2001 A Space Odyssey comes to mind) it actually helps make it a bit more watchable!!   ;)
Logged
"Some cultures are defined by their relationship to cheese."

Visit me on the Interweb Thingie: http://glynor.com/

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14463
  • I won! I won!
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2007, 05:20:28 pm »

I've posted in the main MC12 forum the stuff on how to play Blu-ray & HD-DVD ( http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=43879.0 )

Can one of the Mods please split out the discussions above on Refresh rates to the new thread in the main forum as I think it would be of help to the general users ( http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=43880.0 )

Thanks
Nathan

EDIT - Also started a new thread on playing of ripped Blu-ray & HD-DVD content ( http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=43885.0 )
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

Alex B

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 10121
  • The Cosmic Bird
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2007, 06:31:27 am »

It's interesting that I have never experienced any refresh rate problems.

I don't have a digital video projector or big screen LCD or plasma television units yet, but our CRT televisions (through S-video) and LCD PC displays (through analog VGA, DVI or internal on laptops) can show all video types perfectly fine at the default 60 Hz refresh rate.

The type of the video file doesn't matter at all - 23.97, 24, 25 or 29.97 fps, interlaced or progressive - everything seems to work without problems, but maybe I am missing something that should be obvious.

I have only the CCCP codec pack and standard display drivers installed. All related settings are at the default values.

I have very few HD resolution files, but I suppose the pixel resolution is not a related factor.
Logged
The Cosmic Bird - a triple merger of galaxies: http://eso.org/public/news/eso0755

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14463
  • I won! I won!
Re: What Can I do in 5 Days with my new BluRay / HD-DVD Drive & MC12??
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2007, 02:24:39 pm »

I've split this discussion into three new threads:

Stuff on how to play Blu-ray & HD-DVD Disks ( http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=43879.0 )
Stuff on playing of ripped Blu-ray & HD-DVD content ( http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=43885.0 )
Refresh rates etc ( http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=43880.0 )

Thanks
Nathan
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect
Pages: [1]   Go Up