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[KingDoughnut]

My hardware can support 24/96 yet I can only get 16/48 out of wasapi with JRiver.....this should not be.

In exclusive mode I am able to get the full 24/96 out with other players using wasapi.


What gives???

[KingDoughnut]

I found out why...

Wasapi likes to be as real time as possible, where as any delay in the signal will create an error and it will not be able to lock on the signal.  This is why the buffer in the control panel needs to be as low as possible....however this is still not low enough to get the full upsampled signal out for a lock with wasapi.  The buffer in the registry entry needs to be adjusted slightly to lower from 6 seconds to about 4 seconds.  Therefore if you change the number from 1770 to 1000 [6 sec to about 4 sec] you can get up to 16/96 out to your sound card.  Note, if you lower this too much like to 1 sec there will be problems.

JRiver et.al might want to change this in the versions of 13 so that everyone can enjoy a greater benefit of upsampling without getting errors of "sample rate not supported by hardware"....or maybe not.  There might be more to it than just a lower buffer because I still cant get a full 24bits out...16bit max....no matter how low I lower the buffer. 

[KingDoughnut]

I wonder how feasible this would be.

If a user selects Wasapi output the reg key automatically changes to something less than 6 seconds to insure the ability to upsample without errors and the buffer slider becomes disabled and set to min.  Once the user selects a different mode to output the reg key goes back to 6 and the buffer slider is adjustable.  This might ad some robustness because it will reduce the probability of error messages and lock ups due to buffer issues.

[KingDoughnut]

I take it no one found this useful ??

Oh well, hope it helped someone....

[jmone]

Hi KD,
I found the thread of interest as I am am really pleased that MC13 has WASAPI support on my HTPC, which for me is working without any issues.  For me it allows correct switching to 2ch PCM at 44.1kHz over my HDMI setup (instead of 5.1 with 3.1 blank channels) for 2CH "CD" Audio playback.  My preference is for the output sample rate = source material.  As I can only get WASAPI for 2ch PCM Audio with MC the 44.1kHz output is a good one for my CD's. 

I'd still be interested in a WASAPI DirectShow filter for other media playback (video etc) if anyone has come across such a thing.

Thank and keep up the WASAPI work!
Nathan

[KingDoughnut]

Any idea why I can't get 24bit out while using WASAPI??

Is there anything that can be done on JRiver side that could make this happen?

Reducing the buffer has no affect...

[KingDoughnut]

Any resolution on this?

Can anyone confirm the inability to get a bit rate greater than 16bits out via WASAPI...

[suviking]

I can report mixed results with greater than 16 bits over WASAPI.

In my HTPC I have an Auzen Fusion sound card and an ATI 4550 graphics card with HDMI out. Both are connected to an Integra 9.8 preamp/processor.

With the Auzen Fusion connected over SPDIF, 2ch 16/44.1 and 2ch 24/96 works.
Over the HDMI connection 2ch 16/44.1 works but 2ch 4/96 only results in static.

I flac encoded dts trac (ripped from a dts CD) works over the fusion SPDIF but not over the HDMI. This is usually the ultimate test that a bit perfect connection is in place as any manipulation of the stream by the player or the OS will result in static. Thus, I can only conclude that the WASAPI connection over the HDMI is not quite bit prefect.


I also tried 2ch 24/192 and 5.1 24/96 over HDMI (pointless over SPDIF as it does not support those formats) and of course failed as well, although MC may have posted an error message saying the HW is not supported (which it is).
I'll try again and post back here.

I have to say I'm pleased MC has added support for WASAPI. I could never get ASIO to work with the Fusion, so have not been able to play back e.g. dts tracks through MC since I upgraded from XP and an m-audio 411 card a year or so ago.

So based on these findings, it seems MC's implementation may not have an issue, but rather our sound card drivers may be at fault? I'm using Realtek's ATI HDMI Device, V2.09 for the HDMI sound driver and it has passed bit perfect (i.e. dolby digital, dts) sound tracks from e.g. powerDVD and Vista Media Center.

[KingDoughnut]

Thank you for the reply, at least now I have some information to start trouble shooting.

I too have a Auzen sound card with a custom driver which allows me to get 24/96 but not with MC....with other media players it works.

I'm afraid at my level I can only play with buffer type settings and not get into the real code which may be needed to resolve this....

Thanks again for you support!

[Alex B]

King D, you said you can get only 16/48. Do you mean that a track of a higher sample rate or bit depth does not play at all or do you mean it plays, but it is resampled to 48 Hz and/or the full bit depth is not delivered? If the latter is true how do you know what is the output format? The sound card's control panel or the receiver can indicate the sample rate, but I don't think there is a simple method for checking the outputted bit depth. 16-bit already provides a S/N ratio of 96 dB and it is not easy to hear differences when it is compared with higher bit depths.

... so have not been able to play back e.g. dts tracks through MC since I upgraded from XP and an m-audio 411 card a year or so ago.

... and you call that an upgrade.   BTW, I am not aware of M-Audio 411. Do you mean M-Audio Delta 410?

In general, I don't understand why do you guys use Vista if it does not work. ASIO & XP works fine for me.

[KingDoughnut]

In general, I don't understand why do you guys use Vista if it does not work. ASIO & XP works fine for me.

For the record Vista works perfectly fine.

When playing a track that is sampled at 16/44.1 upsampled via MC to anything higher than 48 Hz I [was] not able to get playback without an hardware error.  When I changed the reg key to about 4.5 seconds vs 6 seconds I was able to get 96Hz but nothing higher that 16bits.


After I changed the reg key to about 4.5 seconds I was able to get the full 96hz but not anything higher than 16 bits.

Other users have reported errors as well but just lowering the buffer via the gui is enough to attain normal playback of 16/44.1

[Alex B]

For the record Vista works perfectly fine. ...
...not able to get playback without an hardware error.

Does it work or not? 

For the record, I can play real 24-bit/96 Hz source files without setting anything on XP. My sound card changes the sample rate automatically and it plays up to 24-bit without problems (there is nothing to set for the bit depth). I'd say it's something that works. I don't really need to see the OS much on my dedicated player PC so anything that works is fine for me.

Upsampling 44.1 kHz source files is a waste of processor cycles if the sound device can play 44.1 kHz natively. Upsampling can only degrade audio quality (- in theory, practically the difference is not audible if a high quality resampler is used). Technically it is a lossy process that alters the signal. It makes sense only if the sound device doesn't support 44.1 kHz natively. In that case MC's sample rate converter may produce better results than upsampling that is done in the Windows kernel.

Just setting the bith depth setting to a higher value cannot increase the existing S/N ratio so it does not provide any benefit if the source material is 16-bit and an otherwise straight signal path is used (i.e. no DSP). The effect of the 24-bit output setting could be audible if the playback volume is set to a very low level using MC's 32-bit DSP and the amplifier is set to a very high volume level. Then MC would truncate the processed signal less and the resulting audible dynamic range could be higher.

I am sorry that I can't help with Wasapi. So far my only experienses of Vista have been when my friends have asked me to fix things like printer or network connections, but none of them have had a PC that is used as a serious media player.

[suviking]

... and you call that an upgrade.   BTW, I am not aware of M-Audio 411. Do you mean M-Audio Delta 410?

In general, I don't understand why do you guys use Vista if it does not work. ASIO & XP works fine for me.

Yes, the Delta 410, sorry 'bout that.

You're right of course, it's pathetic. The Auzen Fusion in particular has been nothing but a great disappointment from the beginning. It was marketed  with a promise of an HDMI add-on card to be released shortly after the main card was released. The add-on card would allow for bitstreaming of TrueHD/DTS HD Master and so forth BD/HD-DVD audio formats w/o downsampling using PAP. It was delayed and delayed and eventually canceled... In the mean time no working ASIO (at least for me) and quite lacking compared to the Delta 410 in other areas such as setting delays on the surround speakers. (M-audio on the other hand  did not offer Vista drivers for the 410 at the time I was building this rig).

Vista was also marketed as finally solving all k-mixer and what not audio issues that had plagued XP/2k/98 and so forth for years, so at least on paper it looked good, plus Nvidia's Vista driver's supported video deinterlacing and hw acceleration whereas for XP they did not.

[suviking]

No upsampling used by me. My 24/96 tracks are either purchased from linn records, or ripped from DVD-A's.

I want the HDMI to work properly so I can send the 5.1 24/96 and 2.0 24/192 tracks to the preamp processor directly as the SPDIF is not an option for those.

[suviking]

After I changed the reg key to about 4.5 seconds I was able to get the full 96hz but not anything higher than 16 bits.

Where can I find this reg key?

[mrcorbo]

I can't get 24 bit output either in MC.  I either get an error that the format is unsupported, or if I lower the buffer, I just get noise.  Using DSP studio to output everything as 16-bit and lowering the buffer (I have mine set to .50 sec) I can get 6 channel/96kHz to play (this is the highest fidelity file I have). 

Foobar's WASAPI output plugin works fine for 24 bit output, though. I just needed to lower the buffer to the minimum (100ms) and I was able to playback my file at the full 6channels/24bit/96kHz resolution.

It would be nice if this functionality could eventually be matched in MC, but I can appreciate that this is probably a low priority.  16 bit is adequate for 99.9% of my music collection and exclusive mode at least fixes the fixed channel output problem I was having (PC sent stereo tracks to my receiver as 5.1 multichannel with 4 blank channels) so I can live with having to use Foobar for the few tracks that I have than are 24-bit.

[suviking]

I did some further testing.
The SPDIF below refer to the Auzentech Fusion card and HDMI refers to an ATI 4550 HDMI out with Realtek's 2.09 ATI HD sound driver. I used JRMC13 (build 82 I believe
I tested foobar with default buffer but with both 16 bit and 24 bit set in the config as the result was slightly different if I did.

Although foobar is able to play a few more formats over HDMI, it failed to play the dts5.1 track, thus I don't trust that the output from foobar over HDMI is at all bit perfect.

Also an issue with MC13 - if I got static out, it doesn't stop when I stop playing the file, or even after closing the app, i.e. I still hear static - pause - static - pause, where each static burst is perhaps a second and the pause about the same duration.
Hopefully this can be resolved, in the meantime I'm stuck with the Auzen card.

Code: [Select]

foobar2000 24bit output - HDMI
2.0/44.1 - yes
2.0/96 - yes
2.0/192k - no - "Unrecoverable playback error: Could not open device (8007000E)"
5.1dts - no
5.1/24 - no - "Unrecoverable playback error: Could not open device (8007001F)"

foobar2000 16bit output - HDMI
2.0/44.1 - yes
2.0/96 - yes
2.0/192k - yes
5.1dts - no
5.1/24 - no - "Unrecoverable playback error: Could not open device (8007001F)"

foobar2000 24bit output - SPDIF
2.0/44.1 - yes
2.0/96 - yes
2.0/192k - no (expected)- "Unrecoverable playback error: Could not open device:
 unsupported data format: 192000 Hz / 24-bit / 2 channels"
5.1dts - yes
5.1/24 - no - (expected) "Unrecoverable playback error: Could not open device:
unsupported data format: 96000 Hz / 24-bit / 6 channels"

foobar2000 16bit output - SPDIF
2.0/44.1 - yes
2.0/96 - yes
2.0/192k - no - (expected) "Unrecoverable playback error: Could not open device:
unsupported data format: 192000 Hz / 16-bit / 2 channels"
5.1dts - yes
5.1/24 - no - (expected) "Unrecoverable playback error: Could not open device:
unsupported data format: 96000 Hz / 16-bit / 6 channels"

=============================================================================
MC13 - SPDIF
2.0/44.1 - yes
2.0/96 - yes
5.1/44.1 - yes, but only 2ch out
2.0/192k - no - "Yellow triangle w/ !-sign"
5.1dts - yes
5.1/24 - no - Yellow triangle w/ !-sign

MC13 - HDMI
2.0/44.1 - yes
2.0/96 - Yellow triangle w/ !-sign
5.1/44.1 - yes, but only 2ch out
2.0/192k - Yellow triangle w/ !-sign
5.1dts - no - static
5.1/24 - no - Yellow triangle w/ !-sign



[mrcorbo]

@ suviking

Using a Radeon HD 4870 here myself and Foobar absolutely does playback DTS.  In fact I am listening to my standard test disc as I type this.  Receiver reports DTS Surround.  You need to make sure that the volume control is set to max in Foobar to prevent any bit-fiddling, though.  So maybe that's your problem?

...and a followup test confirms 6 channel/24bit/96kHz playback as well.  In this case make sure under output you have the buffer length set to the minimum 100ms.  The default setting causes the "Unrecoverable playback error: Could not open device XXXX" for me as well.

[suviking]

Thanks for the heads-up mrcorbo! Lowering the buffer to 100ms did the trick with foobar over the HDMI output. I also managed to get the dts wav to work by changing the speaker setup in Windows to stereo (I had it set to 5.1 before). Now 16 vs 24 bits in foobar makes no difference, i.e. both tracks play fine when foobar is configured to 24 bit output.

With MC I also had success in playing the dts wav files when I set the speaker config to stereo. No change in the behavior of the high bitrate files though, even with the buffer set to the lowest - 0.05s, the files won't play.

Anything the the MC team can do to improve the WASAPI implementation to work with high bitrate tracks? The issue with the static continuing to play after I stop - and exit JRMC13 continues to happen. I have to logoff/logon in order to get rid of it. Very annoying.

[JimH]

The issue with the static continuing to play after I stop - and exit JRMC13 continues to happen. I have to logoff/logon in order to get rid of it. Very annoying.

That may be a driver problem. 

[suviking]

Could be. Through the Auzen it does not happen, but for foobar it does not happen with either device... It is intermittent as well, so probably a tough one to chase down.

/Anders

[Matt]

It looks like we need to convert 24-bit streams to 32-bit on some soundcards.  We'll add this to a coming build.

We'll also automatically bump the buffer duration down so that a user-setting can't result in failure to get playback.

Thanks.

[suviking]

It looks like we need to convert 24-bit streams to 32-bit on some soundcards.  We'll add this to a coming build.

We'll also automatically bump the buffer duration down so that a user-setting can't result in failure to get playback.

Thanks.

Sounds great! I'm looking forward to testing it.

[Matt]

In build 96 (and later), hopefully available next week:
Changed: WASAPI playback better handles 24-bit playback for cards that only support 24-bit playback padded to 32-bit.
Changed: WASAPI playback automatically reduces the user-set buffer size in hardware exclusive mode if the size is larger than the card supports.

[mrcorbo]

Thanks for the heads-up mrcorbo! Lowering the buffer to 100ms did the trick with foobar over the HDMI output. I also managed to get the dts wav to work by changing the speaker setup in Windows to stereo (I had it set to 5.1 before). Now 16 vs 24 bits in foobar makes no difference, i.e. both tracks play fine when foobar is configured to 24 bit output.

With MC I also had success in playing the dts wav files when I set the speaker config to stereo. No change in the behavior of the high bitrate files though, even with the buffer set to the lowest - 0.05s, the files won't play.

Anything the the MC team can do to improve the WASAPI implementation to work with high bitrate tracks? The issue with the static continuing to play after I stop - and exit JRMC13 continues to happen. I have to logoff/logon in order to get rid of it. Very annoying.

Weird that you needed to change to stereo output to get that DTS wav to work as I don't have to do that.  In fact, that was one of the reasons I wanted WASAPI+exclusive in the first place - so I wouldn't have to keep flipping between 5.1 and stereo every time I want to listen to music.

I get the looping audio sometimes also when stopping playback.  I usually get rid of it by just playing-pausing until it doesn't loop anymore.  The looping is also directly related to the size of the buffer.  A longer buffer results in a longer snippet of looping audio.

@ Media Center Team - I'm looking forward to testing the fixes.  Thanks for the attention.

[KingDoughnut]

  Thanks for the attention.

Indeed!

When I bought this up I thought it was going to get logged under "Stupid User Problem" and ignored. 

[JimH]

Build 100 has improved WASAPI support.

[suviking]

I've just done some testing of the new build and things are definitely on the right track.

I can now play 24/96 2.0, 24/96 5.1 and 24/192 2.0 over the HDMI. The bad news though is that there is loud static being played as well... The frequency of the static diminishes by upping the buffer time, i.e. at the lowest - 0.05 s the static is more or less constant, at higher buffer times the static is more bursty so to speak. Even at max though the static does not go away.
At buffer times greater than 0.44 s the 24/96 5.1 track stops playing.
The weird noise when hitting the stop or pause button is still there.
The dts wav plays over the HDMI when speaker config is set to stereo, but not when set to 5.1.

No changes with the Auzen SPDIF out, i.e. everything that should work over it still works.

[jmone]

Happy to also test on my system if you have some sample files you can post.

[suviking]

Hi jmone,

I found these samples googling: http://01688cb.netsolhost.com/samplerdownload/
They appear to be 2ch only, but have 96k sampling.
I played them on my desktop PC - it has the Asus P6T MB and I'm using the built in sound chip - Soundmax with a simple stereo analog out and got the same weird noise as with the HDMI out on my HTPC.

Please try one and see what result you get. What sound card/chipset do you use?

[jmone]

Hi - I played repighirossiana_01.flac and got a regular light dah dah dah dah noise over the top of the track.  Pressing pause and all was quiet but when restarting I got a burst of static.  Regular tracks play fine. 

Thanks
Nathan

PS Audio Decoding on my system is via the Intel G33 HDMI Chipset.

[suviking]

It seems you hear the same noise I hear. So far we have ATI/Realtek HDMI, Intel G33 HDMI and SoundMax analog all have the noise issue. The Auzen Prelude SPDiF the odd man out w/o noise. Only the ATI HDMI has the stop stutter issue.

[mrcorbo]

I'm experienceing the same issues as suviking minus the need to change to stereo to play back DTS wavs.

Also, here's a good place to get high res test samples in various formats:http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html

[jmone]

FYI - here are some results using the various B.Britten: Simple Symphony tracks at http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html - I've not played with any WASAPI settings at all.
Surround 5.1 DTS 24BIT/44.1kHz - outputs the bit steam to the AV Receiver and plays just fine
Surround 5.1 FLAC 24BIT/48kHz - plays but with the digital crackle (all quiet when paused)
Stereo FLAC 24BIT/48kHz - plays but with the digital crackle (all quiet when paused)
Surround 5.1 FLAC 24BIT/96kHz - would not play - MC13 error message "Playback could not be stated on the output "Windows Audio Session API (WASAPI) using the format 96000Hz, 24bits, 6ch"
Stereo FLAC 24BIT/96kHz - plays but with the digital crackle (all quiet when paused)
Stereo FLAC 24BIT/192kHz - plays but with the digital crackle (all quiet when paused)
Surround 5.1 WAV 24BIT/48kHz - will not play - messages in MC13 is "analyse files --> there is nothing to play"
Stereo WAV 24BIT/96kHz - will not play - messages in MC13 is "analyse files --> there is nothing to play"

[mrcorbo]

@ Jmone

Lowering the buffer may allow you to play that Surround 5.1 FLAC 24BIT/96kHz file. I have to use a setting of .50s or lower to get all the formats to play.

[suviking]

Those 2L tracks sure are great sounding. I'll buy a couple of their albums as soon as we can get MC13 to stop playing "morse code" on top of track.

I managed to play them (with noise) when the buffer is 0.44s or less.

[Matt]

Build 101 and newer should automatically reduce the buffer size as necessary.  If you still can cause playback errors by increasing the buffering, but see them go away when reducing the buffering, please post with more information about your soundcard and the version of Media Center you're using.

Thanks.

[suviking]

My desktop system playing the Britten flac 5.1ch 24/96 file:
With the buffer set to or greater than 0.47s, MC13 reports "Playback could not be started on the output 'Windows Audio Session API (WASAPI) using the format '96000 Hz, 24 Bits Per Sample, 6 Channels'. Lowering the buffer to 0.44s, the file plays.
Sysinfo:
Media Center 13.0.101 Registered -- C:\Program Files (x86)\J River\Media Center 13\

Microsoft Windows Vista 6.0 Service Pack 2, v.113 (Build 6002)
Intel Pentium III 2672 MHz MMX / Memory: Total - 3135 MB, Free - 1881 MB

Sound device:
On-board audio on Asus P6T deluxe motherboard - ADI AD2000B (SoundMax Integrated HD Audio).

[suviking]

Matt,

I upraded my HTPC from buildd 100 to 101 as well and got the same result, buffer greater than 0.44 s results in no playback. Here I have an ATI 4550 video card with HDMI out and the Realtek ATI HDMI Driver V2.09.

   

[Matt]

Sound device:
On-board audio on Asus P6T deluxe motherboard - ADI AD2000B (SoundMax Integrated HD Audio).

Please send your i7 to JRiver, Inc. c/o Matt.  I'll get it back to you as soon as the i8's are available

[suviking]

he he, it's a nice CPU for sure 

[Matt]

In build 102 and later (should be coming by next week):

Fixed: WASAPI playback could (still) fail on certain devices if the user-specified buffer size was too large.
Fixed: WASAPI playback of 24-bit material could produce static / ticking with certain hardware.

[suviking]

Excellent! I'm looking forward to test the new build.

[jmone]

I can confirm that V102 fixes the static  on my rig, however I still can not playback the following three files:

Surround 5.1 FLAC 24BIT/96kHz - would not play - MC13 error message "Playback could not be stated on the output "Windows Audio Session API (WASAPI) using the format 96000Hz, Surround 5.1 WAV 24BIT/48kHz - will not play - messages in MC13 is "analyse files --> there is nothing to play"
Stereo WAV 24BIT/96kHz - will not play - messages in MC13 is "analyse files --> there is nothing to play"

[jmone]

I have upgraded my Vid Card to an HD4550 and can also confirm the "Stop Stutter" issue has now appeared, as follows:

On the Intel G33: I'd see the receiver switch between 5.1CH MPCM (std output) to 2ch PCM when playing a CD Audio track using WASAPI and back again just fine.
On the HD4550: I'd see the receiver switch between 5.1CH MPCM (std output) to 2ch PCM when playing a CD Audio track using WASAPI but when the "stop stutter issue" happens it does not seem to switch back to 5.1CH MPCM or I see "Analogue" flash up first.

Anyway it seems that around 1/2 the time the issue occurs when stopping a CD Audio track which is not so good & I really liked WASAPI!

Let me know if you need any more info.
Thanks
Nathan

[suviking]

Nathan,

were you able to play the 3 files you had trouble with on the G33 through the 4550 using build 102?

/Anders

[jmone]

No - the files all played (or did not play) identically, but the good Folk at JR continue to make tweaks to the WASAPI code so you never know what will change over the next few builds.

[jmone]

For the ATI users, the "Stop Stutter" issue is also being addressed in upcoming builds!

[suviking]

Sweet!

[mrcorbo]

For the ATI users, the "Stop Stutter" issue is also being addressed in upcoming builds!

All good stuff.  Thanks for the heads-up!