Topic: Wasapi Exclusive mode Sample Rate Max - Lower Than My Hardware Limits (Read 95911 times)

mrcorbo · « **Reply #50 on:** January 09, 2009, 06:44:59 pm »

Quick testing done on new build v104

Sound seems perfect during 24 bit playback.

Playing back 6 channel/24bit/96kHz track requires buffer setting of .40 or below or playback fails.

Occasional single burst of noise when stopping playback.

Consistent single burst of noise when starting playback from stopped state, behavior even persists after closing and re-opening application.

Noise on starting playback can be prevented by changing the buffer value in between stopping and re-starting playback. I noticed this while trying to determine the highest buffer value that would allow 6ch/24bit/96kHz playback.

Getting closer....

Matt · « **Reply #51 on:** January 09, 2009, 06:53:35 pm »

What sound card are you using?

I've been a little surprised that different cards seem to behave quite differently, return different errors when out of memory, etc.

jmone · « **Reply #52 on:** January 09, 2009, 07:14:26 pm »

On my HD4550

Quote

Occasional single burst of noise when stopping playback.

Yes - I hear that one.

Quote

Consistent single burst of noise when starting playback from stopped state, behavior even persists after closing and re-opening application.

I don't have this problem eg I can start stop Audio tracks just fine, can you explain more how this occurs & I can double check.

Thanks
Nathan

mrcorbo · « **Reply #53 on:** January 10, 2009, 06:34:39 am »

Quote from: Matt on January 09, 2009, 06:53:35 pm

What sound card are you using?

I've been a little surprised that different cards seem to behave quite differently, return different errors when out of memory, etc.

Radeon HD 4870 using Realtek drivers. I just looked and there's a new 2.14 driver set and a 2.13 version of the ATI HDMI Audio Device. I'm going to try the 2.14 driver package and see if it changes anything.

For now, though, more results with current drivers -

These bursts of noise only seem to happen during 24bit playback.

Pausing a track frequently leads to looping audio, still. In both 16 bit and 24 bit. Resuming play usually stops the looping, but I once had playback hang up. Pressing stop after the hang and then pressing play worked.

Skipping between tracks seems to work fine.

@jmone

It happens every time I press play after pressing stop. Going into output settings and changing the buffer size (even by just .01) in any direction in between pressing stop and pressing play prevents it.

suviking · « **Reply #54 on:** January 10, 2009, 06:10:29 pm »

Build 104 certainly took care of the static and the high bit tracks now play beautifully. Sure, there’s a bit of a pop when stopping/playing and the noise when pausing is still there on some tracks, but I also have tracks where I could not reproduce that behavior.

I upgraded to V2.13 of the realtek driver (2.14 is not for the ATI card) and did not notice any difference.

The quality of those 2L recordings in 5.1/24/96 is amazing.

Thanks Matt for straightening out the WASAPI interface!

I’m off to download and listen to some more HD music!

/Anders

mrcorbo · « **Reply #55 on:** January 10, 2009, 06:15:03 pm »

With ATI HDMI Driver 2.13 installed I don't get the noise on hitting the stop button any more. All other issues still present.

As suviking said, though, what works works great!

jmone · « **Reply #56 on:** January 11, 2009, 02:42:05 am »

Quote

Radeon HD 4870 using Realtek drivers. I just looked and there's a new 2.14 driver set and a 2.13 version of the ATI HDMI Audio Device. I'm going to try the 2.14 driver package and see if it changes anything.

FYI - with my HD4550 I was told to first intall the Realtek Vista Drivers (V2.14) then the ATI HDMI Drivers (V2.13) which has been working well most things. I've not had the chance to play anymore however as the familly want to watch content!

Osho · « **Reply #57 on:** January 12, 2009, 12:25:34 am »

Could someone please enlighten me about benefits of using WASAPI over ASIO or DirectSound? Is it of relevance only to those who use audio over HDMI? Or, it would also benefit who use high-end sound cards supporting 24-bit/96kHz?

Thanks,
Osho

jmone · « **Reply #58 on:** January 12, 2009, 02:49:15 pm »

Quote from: Osho on January 12, 2009, 12:25:34 am

Could someone please enlighten me about benefits of using WASAPI over ASIO or DirectSound? Is it of relevance only to those who use audio over HDMI? Or, it would also benefit who use high-end sound cards supporting 24-bit/96kHz?

Thanks,
Osho

This is my first experience with using a high quality Audio Renderer so while I can't enlighten you on the differences (if any) with ASIO, I do get two big benefits from using WASAPI over DirectSound:

1) Quality - to my (untrained) ears the quality output is far better using WASAPI than DirectSound. I've got all my music ripped in WMA Lossless and have it reproduced by a Yami V2700 with Axiom Epic60/500 5.1 speaker setup.

2) Empty Ch Problems - WASAPI (exclusive mode) will change the output from my HTPC to 2CH to match the playback of my CD Audio tracks from the Default 5.1 setting in the control panel which DirectShound will not do. This solves the problem where my Receiver was getting 5.1 CH from the HTPC but only 2 CH had any information in it (the other 3.1 were present but blank). This causes problems with Base Mgt, and (if you are into it) all the sound field mgt the Receiver can do as it thinks it is getting 5.1 not 2.0.

Thanks
Nathan

mrcorbo · « **Reply #59 on:** January 12, 2009, 10:55:07 pm »

Quote from: Osho on January 12, 2009, 12:25:34 am

Could someone please enlighten me about benefits of using WASAPI over ASIO or DirectSound? Is it of relevance only to those who use audio over HDMI? Or, it would also benefit who use high-end sound cards supporting 24-bit/96kHz?

Thanks,
Osho

Versus ASIO, it's a little more supported. Being an integrated feature of Vista it should work on a wider variety of hardware than ASIO (though with ASIO4All, I was always able to get ASIO output with even the onboard audio codecs I have used). If you already have a working ASIO-capable setup, though, you may not gain any functionality.

Versus DirectSound, WASAPI in exclusive mode offers bit-perfect audio output. No mixing, no resampling. In my particular setup the audio data goes untouched from the point of decoding the audio file to when it gets to my receiver for playback which is exactly how I want it.

jmone · « **Reply #60 on:** January 19, 2009, 04:51:58 am »

If you are intested in the possibility of including WASAPI support in the free ReClock Direct Show filter you may like to contribute to this thread at the Dev's Site http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=24998
Thanks
Nathan

Osho · « **Reply #61 on:** January 19, 2009, 02:56:04 pm »

For my configuration (Windows XP Service Pack 3 with Lynx L22 sound card), ASIO works but WASAPI does not. What can I do to get WASAPI work for audio ? Would I see any benefit over ASIO?

Thanks,
Osho

Alex B · « **Reply #62 on:** January 19, 2009, 03:39:03 pm »

Quote from: Osho on January 19, 2009, 02:56:04 pm

For my configuration (Windows XP Service Pack 3 with Lynx L22 sound card), ASIO works but WASAPI does not. What can I do to get WASAPI work for audio ? Would I see any benefit over ASIO?

WASAPI is a Vista feature.

Generally speaking, you can use WASAPI instead of ASIO on Vista. Both output modes are capable of bit perfect playback.

I don't know if a device driver must specifically support WASAPI before it can work and I don't know how the Lynx driver works on Vista.

EDIT

I'd be happy to assist. Just send me one Lynx L22 card for testing. I'll post a report ASAP.

Osho · « **Reply #63 on:** January 19, 2009, 11:28:41 pm »

Quote from: Alex B on January 19, 2009, 03:39:03 pm

WASAPI is a Vista feature.

Generally speaking, you can use WASAPI instead of ASIO on Vista. Both output modes are capable of bit perfect playback.

I don't know if a device driver must specifically support WASAPI before it can work and I don't know how the Lynx driver works on Vista.

Thanks Alex. If I have ASIO on Windows XP SP3, should I bother moving to Vista for WASAPI? As I see it, both should send the same bit perfect audio to the sound card.

Quote from: Alex B on January 19, 2009, 03:39:03 pm

EDIT

I'd be happy to assist. Just send me one Lynx L22 card for testing. I'll post a report ASAP.

I wish I had an extra one lying around - if only the economy was better...

Osho

Alex B · « **Reply #64 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:40:40 am »

WASAPI on Vista cannot provide better audio quality than ASIO on XP. Bit perfect is bit perfect.

MS has claimed that Vista provides better audio quality than XP when the OS level, built-in audio engine is allowed to process the signal. Some of the usability related audio features have changed in Vista -- to better or worse depending on personal preferences.

I have used Vista only occasionally and briefly. I still prefer to install XP on my PCs.

P.S.

I have wanted to buy a LynxTWO-B card (with 6 output channels), but I always seem to be short of cash when I am purchasing new hardware and I end up buying other things that I need more urgently...

benn600 · « **Reply #65 on:** January 20, 2009, 08:36:55 am »

Since when did the Radeon become a soundcard?

Osho · « **Reply #66 on:** January 20, 2009, 09:12:30 am »

Quote from: benn600 on January 20, 2009, 08:36:55 am

Since when did the Radeon become a soundcard?

Since it started supporting HDMI output I think. HDMI sends both audio and video on the same cable so the graphics card has to become aware of sound. The same is true about the recent Nvidia cards.

Osho

mrcorbo · « **Reply #67 on:** January 20, 2009, 09:52:58 pm »

Quote from: Osho on January 20, 2009, 09:12:30 am

Since it started supporting HDMI output I think. HDMI sends both audio and video on the same cable so the graphics card has to become aware of sound. The same is true about the recent Nvidia cards.

Osho

Slight clarification:

Nvidia video cards of recent vintage can passthrough audio received via S/PDIF from an external source. ATI Radeon HD cards (3xxx and 4xxx series) have an onboard Realtek codec to generate their own sound. The 3xxx series supports stereo PCM (up to 24 bit/192kHz IIRC) as well as Dolby Digital and DTS compressed audio. The 4xxx series adds multichannel PCM support of up to 7.1 channels @ 24 bit/192 kHz.

OTOH there are Nvidia motherboards with integrated video and audio (8xxx and 9xxx series) that have the same support for mutlichannel LPCM as the 4xxxx series Radeons.

KingDoughnut · « **Reply #68 on:** January 24, 2009, 01:03:22 pm »

Quote from: Alex B on January 20, 2009, 05:40:40 am

WASAPI on Vista cannot provide better audio quality than ASIO on XP. Bit perfect is bit perfect.

Hmmmm, I beg to differ...."audio quality" is highly subjective and has to do with a huge amount of variables, only one of which is the bit perfect method of transmission. To my ears, with my computers, in my listening room, with my audio gear bit-perfect ASIO sounds different that bit-perfect WASAPI. I would venture to say that I am not the only person who hears or 'think they hear' a difference between bit-perfect ASIO and bit-perfect WASAPI. If their is a 'difference' then one can and always will be perceived as being of higher quality than the other.

Alex B · « **Reply #69 on:** January 24, 2009, 01:38:33 pm »

I am not sure if you are just joking (I guess

means that) , but...

The bit perfect ASIO and bit perfect WASAPI outputs are bit to bit identical. If other factors are causing measurable, audible or imagined differences then they are, but those differences are not caused by the ASIO or WASAPI stages in the signal chain if all related settings are correctly set to transmit unaltered signal. In theory you could redirect the output from ASIO and the output from WASAPI (before they reach any hardware component) to a SW comparator and it would verify that the outputs are identical. Naturally someone would first need to create the needed test software.

KingDoughnut · « **Reply #70 on:** January 24, 2009, 02:20:39 pm »

Quote from: Alex B on January 24, 2009, 01:38:33 pm

I am not sure if you are just joking (I guess means that) , but...

The bit perfect ASIO and bit perfect WASAPI outputs are bit to bit identical. If other factors are causing measurable, audible or imagined differences then they are, but those differences are not caused by the ASIO or WASAPI stages in the signal chain if all related settings are correctly set to transmit unaltered signal. In theory you could redirect the output from ASIO and the output from WASAPI (before they reach any hardware component) to a SW comparator and it would verify that the outputs are identical. Naturally someone would first need to create the needed test software.

Nah, not joking....just implying that I am making a friendly exchange of dialog.

I am sure you know this type of discussion has gone on for ages...similar discussions used to go on about powercords, IC's, speaker cable and the like. Do we really want to dig up this old horse and beat it some more??

Let's just suffice to say there is such a thing as the Placebo affect, and there are people who claim to hear things that are not able to be measured. I guess I am one of them...

DougHamm · « **Reply #71 on:** February 04, 2009, 07:16:59 am »

Hi all,

I've got some ripped DVD-As at 88.2kHz, and they won't play with WASAPI exclusive mode. Same error that comes up when you play 96/24's with incorrect buffer size settings, except I can't get this to go away. Is this a limit of WASAPI, or the JRiver implementation? I've got everything else to work.

Cheers,

-Doug

Matt · « **Reply #72 on:** February 04, 2009, 10:45:47 am »

Quote from: DougHamm on February 04, 2009, 07:16:59 am

Hi all,

I've got some ripped DVD-As at 88.2kHz, and they won't play with WASAPI exclusive mode. Same error that comes up when you play 96/24's with incorrect buffer size settings, except I can't get this to go away. Is this a limit of WASAPI, or the JRiver implementation? I've got everything else to work.

Cheers,

-Doug

It's possible your soundcard can't run its clock at 88.2. You could use DSP Studio to resample -- it's extremely high quality.

DougHamm · « **Reply #73 on:** February 08, 2009, 12:28:03 pm »

Quote from: Matt on February 04, 2009, 10:45:47 am

It's possible your soundcard can't run its clock at 88.2. You could use DSP Studio to resample -- it's extremely high quality.

Thanks Matt - will try!

jmone · « **Reply #74 on:** February 20, 2009, 01:43:10 pm »

FYI James at Slysoft has confired a couple of times now that they will be adding WASAPI Support to their DirectShow Reclock Audio Renderer!

http://forum.slysoft.com/showpost.php?p=177063&postcount=34

How good is that!

EDIT - CH Mapping is now supported in Reclock --> http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=50688.0

jmone · « **Reply #75 on:** February 24, 2009, 02:44:02 pm »

Quote

Pausing a track frequently leads to looping audio

Mmm it is back for me....anyone else?
Thanks
Nathan

JimH · « **Reply #76 on:** February 24, 2009, 02:48:13 pm »

Did you try changing MC settings for WASAPI?

jmone · « **Reply #77 on:** February 24, 2009, 03:07:16 pm »

Nope - I've never changed a single WASAPI setting!

mrcorbo · « **Reply #78 on:** February 25, 2009, 06:23:01 pm »

Quote from: jmone on February 24, 2009, 02:44:02 pm

Mmm it is back for me....anyone else?
Thanks
Nathan

It never left for me. Still have all the issues outlined here and here.

JimH · « **Reply #79 on:** February 25, 2009, 06:31:00 pm »

Did you try changing the settings for WASAPI in MC? You may need to update to find them.

jmone · « **Reply #80 on:** February 26, 2009, 02:27:10 am »

For those interested, the latest version of Reclock as intoduced WASAPI support http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=19931

mrcorbo · « **Reply #81 on:** February 26, 2009, 09:03:51 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 25, 2009, 06:31:00 pm

Did you try changing the settings for WASAPI in MC? You may need to update to find them.

My last post was based on a re-test using the .126 build. The only settings I'm aware of are buffer size and the exclusive mode checkbox. Was there anything else added that I'm not aware of?

JimH · « **Reply #82 on:** February 26, 2009, 09:38:54 pm »

Please check the history for the recent builds. It's in each release thread on this board.

mrcorbo · « **Reply #83 on:** February 27, 2009, 06:20:51 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 26, 2009, 09:38:54 pm

Please check the history for the recent builds. It's in each release thread on this board.

No WASAPI-related changes in the release notes that I can see since build .104.

jmone · « **Reply #84 on:** February 27, 2009, 11:33:20 pm »

Anyone having any stability issues with MC13 at present. I've had MC hang a few times leaving the WASAPI rap dance audio loop and an unresponse MC13 (needs to be killed). This seems to happen after a half hour or so of playing Audio (using Radio) - I'm now trying with Direct Show to see if it is WASAPI related.

I've attached the crash log (it is big however) if it is any help...

Thanks
nathan

jmone · « **Reply #85 on:** February 27, 2009, 11:45:39 pm »

Quote from: jmone on February 27, 2009, 11:33:20 pm

Anyone having any stability issues with MC13 at present. I've had MC hang a few times leaving the WASAPI rap dance audio loop and an unresponse MC13 (needs to be killed). This seems to happen after a half hour or so of playing Audio (using Radio) - I'm now trying with Direct Show to see if it is WASAPI related.

I've attached the crash log (it is big however) if it is any help...

Thanks
nathan

Mmmm - I wonder.... http://support.microsoft.com/kb/957569 will give it a go...

Given the last three lines of my log file is:

Code: [Select]

2521226: 2160: Playback: CMJWaveFeeder::Thread: Finished feeder loop (bCancel: 0)
2521226: 2160: Playback: CPlayerZone::PlayNextFile: bContinue=1, bCanPlayNext=1, m_bPlaybackError=0
2521226: 2160: Playback: CMJWaveFeeder::Thread: Finish (261707 ms)

jmone · « **Reply #86 on:** February 28, 2009, 09:08:15 pm »

Quote from: jmone on February 27, 2009, 11:45:39 pm

Mmmm - I wonder.... http://support.microsoft.com/kb/957569 will give it a go...

This fix works - no more hangs/stalls etc

JimH · « **Reply #87 on:** February 28, 2009, 09:14:07 pm »

Thanks for letting us know.

jmone · « **Reply #88 on:** March 01, 2009, 04:36:52 pm »

New version of reclock is out with much improved WASAPI support (http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=19931)

including:

Quote

* New: Added option to select the desired output format for PCM audio (same as input, 16/24/32 bit PCM or 32 bit IEEE float)

jmone · « **Reply #89 on:** March 09, 2009, 12:57:15 am »

Anyone still getting stutter when pressing pause?

mrcorbo · « **Reply #90 on:** March 10, 2009, 08:00:08 pm »

Quote from: jmone on March 09, 2009, 12:57:15 am

Anyone still getting stutter when pressing pause?

Yes. All the issues I had as of .104 are still present in the current version.

mrcorbo · « **Reply #91 on:** March 17, 2009, 04:31:58 pm »

Testing .140

Looping audio on pause, burst of noise on pressing stop and burst of noise on restarting playback after pressing stop (this last will happen even if you shut the application down and restart in between) are all still present.

Changing the buffer value in between pressing stop and restarting playback still prevents the burst of noise on restarting playback.

jmone · « **Reply #92 on:** March 18, 2009, 12:29:52 am »

This appears to be a MC WASAPI implementation issue as while reclock had similar issues they have now been resolved.

jmone · « **Reply #93 on:** March 19, 2009, 01:07:37 am »

Here are some updated notes on what plays / does not for me using MC V141 / Vista 32-Bit SP1 / Gigabyte HD4550 / Cat 9.2 / Realtek R218 Drivers / 5.1 Ch set in Audio Cntl Pnl --> using the various B.Britten: Simple Symphony tracks at http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html - I've not played with any WASAPI settings at all.
Surround 5.1 DTS 24BIT/44.1kHz
- Output = Fine, 5.1DTS Bitstream is sent to the receiver
- Pausing = Issues
a) Pressing "Play" causes the Receiver to flash on/off that it is getting a DTS Stream (eg the Stutter) but it is paused. Press "Play" again and it starts playing fine.
b) Pressing "Pause" seems to force the Audio out stream to 2CH PCM & from then on you don't hear anyting and can not resume playback. You have to press "Stop" and start again.
Surround 5.1 FLAC 24BIT/48kHz
- Output = Fine, 5.1 PCM is sent to the receiver
- Pausing = Issues, I'm getting the usual stutter, however as reported above it will also occasionally also freese when presssing "pause" (you hear nothing, the song does not advance) but you can stop and restart the track
Stereo FLAC 24BIT/48kHz & Stereo FLAC 24BIT/96kHz & Stereo WAV 24BIT/96kHz
- Output = Fine, 2.0 PCM is sent to the receiver
- Pausing = Issues, same probs as above.
Surround 5.1 FLAC 24BIT/96kHz - would not play - MC13 error message "Playback could not be stated on the output "Windows Audio Session API (WASAPI) using the format 96000Hz, 24bits, 6ch" - Note: I've not played with any buffer settings and others have reported this one plays.
Stereo FLAC 24BIT/192kHz
- Output = Wrong CH Configuration as 5.1 PCM is sent to the receiver
- Pausing = Issues, same probs as above.
Surround 5.1 WAV 24BIT/48kHz - will not play - messages in MC13 is "analyse files --> there is nothing to play"

MP3 / WA Lossless- Output = Fine, 2.0 PCM is sent to the receiver
- Pausing = Issues, same probs as above.

Summary: There is still the issue with "Pause" that causes the stutter or even stalls the playback of the track with all audio media types. The dynamic allocation of Channel Mapping is correct for all but one file type. MC's WASAPI Implemenation does not reset the Audio output to the default set in the control panel (eg mine is 5.1) but sets it at 2.0 CH.

Thanks
Nathan

jmone · « **Reply #94 on:** March 24, 2009, 12:43:12 am »

Just tried the HDMI Drivers part of Cat9.3 and
1) there is no stutter problem,
2) auto channel config works
3) DTS in WAV file played fine

There is a problem with 32-Bit support in reclock (I'll post in their forum) but for now I've just turned off 32-Bit output in FFDSHOW and config reclock to set the output as the same as the input.

Johnny B · « **Reply #95 on:** April 21, 2009, 08:10:19 am »

JRiver, do you plan to improve the WASAPI support in MC13 or is this the best we can hope for?
With latest 13.0.151 I still get stutter loop when paused (no matter if I check / uncheck "Flush device buffers") and also fading seems to be not working properly (on Stop or Next).

Vista Enterprise 64-bit SP1 (with latest updates)
ATI HD 4850 (Catalyst 9.4) connected via HDMI to receiver Denon AVR-2808
ATI HDMI Audio Device 2.18 (Realtek driver)

Thank you

JimH · « **Reply #96 on:** April 21, 2009, 08:19:53 am »

Quote from: Johnny B on April 21, 2009, 08:10:19 am

JRiver, do you plan to improve the WASAPI support in MC13 or is this the best we can hope for?
With latest 13.0.151 I still get stutter loop when paused (no matter if I check / uncheck "Flush device buffers") and also fading seems to be not working properly (on Stop or Next).

Vista Enterprise 64-bit SP1 (with latest updates)
ATI HD 4850 (Catalyst 9.4) connected via HDMI to receiver Denon AVR-2808
ATI HDMI Audio Device 2.18 (Realtek driver)

That may be a driver problem.

Johnny B · « **Reply #97 on:** April 21, 2009, 08:27:15 am »

What driver do you mean - Catalyst or Realtek?

Before I updated to latest I had been using Catalyst 9.2 and Realtek ATI HDMI Audio Device 2.13 and my HTPC behaved the same way (that's why I tried to update both to the latest).

JimH · « **Reply #98 on:** April 21, 2009, 09:36:29 am »

I don't know which driver. Even the latest may not work correctly. Did you try a google search?

jmone · « **Reply #99 on:** April 21, 2009, 04:36:29 pm »

Johnny,
Try the HDMI Audio drivers that come as a part of the the ATI Catalyst pack. You will first need to uninstall the Reltek ATI Audio Driver (which still stutter with MC) then reinstall Catalyst. Your stuttering will be gone but you have other issues that you may or may not care about including:
1) Silent Stream: When sound is not being sent the Audio is acutally turned off (good way of removing stuttering) but you will not hear any "quick" sounds such as Windows Notification as by the time it has started the sound has finished. I don't mind this behaviour but others do....
2) No 32-Bit Debth Support (see my post above). It does not cause me any probs

Overall I'm happy(ier) with the HDMI Drivers in the ATI Catalyst install pack.

Thanks
Nathan

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Author Topic: Wasapi Exclusive mode Sample Rate Max - Lower Than My Hardware Limits (Read 95911 times)

KingDoughnut

KingDoughnut