Topic: Next -- Read and write when using Library Server? (Read 6623 times)

Matt · « **on:** June 09, 2009, 06:26:09 pm »

We're thinking about adding support for bidirectional communication when using Library Server. Tag changes, new playlists, and other library changes would get transmitted to the server. Changes made by other clients would also be available.

We would add a command "Synchronize with Library Server" that would transmit any changes to the server, and download any changes made by other clients.

To start, this command would be run manually. It would handle tag changes and playlist changes. It would not handle addition of new files on the client, since this would require transmitting the actual file to the server. If multiple clients made conflicting changes, the last change submitted would win (as opposed to showing a conflict resolution user interface).

One appealing aspect of this approach is that the library would continue to operate at full speed during normal use since everything resides locally. The system would not be going to a server for every search, every get, etc. It would only need to talk with the server at synchronize time.

Thoughts?

zxsix · « **Reply #1 on:** June 09, 2009, 06:59:15 pm »

Perfect scenario for my needs.
All importing/tagging is done at the main console at my house. All client pc's get the library in read only (kids rooms, pool, garage).
I do want to be able to tag from here in the hotel room and also from work though.
Mostly rating changes but perhaps a small amount of cleanup of other tags. Deciding it belongs in a different genre or fixing a typo perhaps.
Please make it respect the /readonly switch on the command line.

ThoBar · « **Reply #2 on:** June 09, 2009, 07:53:00 pm »

Love it!

I run a headless server, an would find it MUCH more convenient for both myslef and my wife to be able to tag from wherever on whatever machine.

Ultimately, writing chnages back to the central MC as they occur would be ideal.

Even better would be if MC detected the change on the server, and automatically updated current views etc.

And this is DEFINITELY a "Why should I upgrade" winner...

park · « **Reply #3 on:** June 09, 2009, 08:38:02 pm »

Yeah, this is the feature I've been waiting for too. I think about it every time I hear a good song at work, and have to remember to rate it up when I get home.

Could you add a rule to the scheduler? Something like "Synch tag changes on Exit"

dcwebman · « **Reply #4 on:** June 10, 2009, 07:19:09 am »

I don't use library server because it's just me at home, but if this was implemented, I definitely would be using it immediately. I would then be able to access my home library from work and tag files as needed to keep things consistent and not have to transfer files back and forth after tagging at work. I can also get rid of my subset of audio files on an external hard drive at work.

cncb · « **Reply #5 on:** June 10, 2009, 08:19:34 am »

Quote from: Matt on June 09, 2009, 06:26:09 pm

It would not handle addition of new files on the client, since this would require transmitting the actual file to the server.

Would this handle files added to the library by a client if the files reside on the server's drive (mapped network drive on client)? This is how I work - I add all files to the library from my main client but all the files are on the server's networked drive.

Alex B · « **Reply #6 on:** June 10, 2009, 09:31:10 am »

Quote from: Matt on June 09, 2009, 06:26:09 pm

If multiple clients made conflicting changes, the last change submitted would win (as opposed to showing a conflict resolution user interface).

Would it write only the changed things instead of replacing the library with a newer version? I.e. would it create a cache of the actual changes and be able to apply only the changed data to the library on the server? I am thinking of situation in which one client would tag one file and another client would tag another file (or edit a different playlist, etc)

What would happen if the library on the server has changed after the client downloaded a copy of it?

Would this be available also with the "play on the server" mode?

Matt · « **Reply #7 on:** June 10, 2009, 09:44:25 am »

Only changes would be transmitted.

Matt · « **Reply #8 on:** June 10, 2009, 01:22:08 pm »

Quote from: cncb on June 10, 2009, 08:19:34 am

Would this handle files added to the library by a client if the files reside on the server's drive (mapped network drive on client)? This is how I work - I add all files to the library from my main client but all the files are on the server's networked drive.

Yes. We will support added files where the filename is resolvable by the server.

Alex also raised a good idea: making the client not use the server at all for cases where it can resolve the filename because it's UNC or a network share. We're going to think about this one.

Matt · « **Reply #9 on:** June 10, 2009, 03:44:49 pm »

We're far enough along that we can say with some certainty that this feature will be included in Media Center 14.

It will have bidirectional support for tag changes, file additions, playlist additions, and playlist changes.

Marty3d · « **Reply #10 on:** June 10, 2009, 05:14:11 pm »

So what is the limitations gonna be compared to using MC locally?

park · « **Reply #11 on:** June 11, 2009, 01:04:53 am »

This is so good. My playcounts are going to start having meaning again.

MrHaugen · « **Reply #12 on:** June 11, 2009, 02:39:47 am »

Quote from: Matt on June 10, 2009, 03:44:49 pm

We're far enough along that we can say with some certainty that this feature will be included in Media Center 14.

It will have bidirectional support for tag changes, file additions, playlist additions, and playlist changes.

This is GREAT news! I'm really looking forward to it. I have two comments and suggestions though.

1. I'm a bit skeptical to the manual "sync" method. Is there any reasons why this changes can't be done live? If the server have some kind buffer it should not be that intensive, should it? What I mean is; if each client have to find a sync with server button in the menu, it's hardly gonna be used anyway. At least with people that's not very familiar with the system. Would it be possible to set a timer or interval at the server to tell the clients to send new tag/playlist updates etc to the server each 30 minutes or something at least? This have to be some kind automatic behavior...

2. I hope you will also think about access control lists based on computer/client or preferably the users. You can limit users or clients to certain areas of the library (music only is one example). One person can have full read and write and others just write to certain parts of the library. This would make this system friendly for ALL family members and visiting friends as well. Think of the disaster that could happen if someone tags a lot of tracks and you don't listen to them and don't see the changes for months.
As a MINIMUM there should be a way of locking down a client for writing to the library (only updating number listened).

flac.rules · « **Reply #13 on:** June 11, 2009, 06:45:34 am »

I largely agree with MrHaugen, it's a great implementation, but some kind of restrictions should apply, so one can be sure that no mishaps are going to happen.

Marty3d · « **Reply #14 on:** June 11, 2009, 07:59:09 am »

Quote from: Elvis133 on June 11, 2009, 06:45:34 am

I largly agree with MrHaugen, ita a great implmentation, bu som kind of restrictions should apply, so one can be sure that no mishaps are going to happen.

Setting some user permission groups? Allow editing on only password protected accounts?

rpalmer68 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 11, 2009, 08:12:16 am »

Quote from: Matt on June 10, 2009, 01:22:08 pm

Alex also raised a good idea: making the client not use the server at all for cases where it can resolve the filename because it's UNC or a network share. We're going to think about this one.

I like this idea too. I have all my machines running MC accessing my media via my thecus NAS, so if I could just use the server as a library sync/share and still access my media directly it woud be perfect for me.

A couple of other questions on this;

1) If my wife sync'd her ipod on her laptop and in the process additional files were added to the handheld cache (stacks) stored centrally on my NAS, I assume the stacks will update via the server to all machines sine file additions are being synced?

2) If I want to delete files or do other maintenance tasks on the library, does the machine running the server have full access or does one need to close the server to gain full access?

Looking forward to seeing this progress, it's what I've been waiting for, so thank you!

Richard

MrHaugen · « **Reply #16 on:** June 11, 2009, 08:27:47 am »

Quote from: Marty3d on June 11, 2009, 07:59:09 am

Setting some user permission groups? Allow editing on only password protected accounts?

Yes. Just like Windows Access Control Lists, but a lot less complicated. Individual users and or groups would work.

What I see is the following:

At startup of a client (that is connected to a library server) the user is prompted for a username and password. Choose Username from a list, and enter password with a on-screen keyboard. If you have read on all Music, Video and Images you can see Views for them all, but if you don't have access the View is not visible. Users with write restrictions to specific parts of the Library could also be set. You can't access the tag system, or you'd get a restriction prompt if you try to edit things you don't have the rights to. Whether or not the play count and similar should be updated I'm not sure about. Adding playlists from the client should be available anyway I think, as well as views, and would follow the user if he changes client. A guest account with no password and no write privileges could also be used.

The minimum should be to be able to set read only or read and write for the whole library per user. It could also be client based, but you'd miss many good opportunities like roaming play lists if you simplify it that much.

A system like this would be easiest and most elegant if it's locked to theater view, but could also be possible in standard view.

It would be very elegant for a digital home, but could be used in a lot of other scenarios I suppose. Like a media server system for Hotel rooms, and Music/Video at bars maybe? Basically anywhere that contains several user groups and you want to be able to delegate limited access to different groups to prevent library disasters, or that people play with unnecessary things or things not suited for the situation or person.

park · « **Reply #17 on:** June 11, 2009, 08:36:24 am »

Quote from: Matt on June 10, 2009, 01:22:08 pm

Yes. We will support added files where the filename is resolvable by the server.

Alex also raised a good idea: making the client not use the server at all for cases where it can resolve the filename because it's UNC or a network share. We're going to think about this one.

Sounds exciting even though I cant really picture it. So tagging and playback etc would be applied directly to the files if they could be found (on same network), but other library info would still be synched back to the Library server?

I have a suggestion regarding the "Here or there?" playback messge. Apply a tick to "Dont show again" on the message. I think that you can guarantee that this setting is going to be the same every time you connect to library server for an individual pc. So it only ever needs to be set once for most of the clients that are ever going to connect using library server.
ie. All of my client computers will always play "there".

YannisA · « **Reply #18 on:** June 11, 2009, 10:03:22 am »

Very good addition!

Tolga · « **Reply #19 on:** June 11, 2009, 01:28:08 pm »

This direction is greatly welcomed, something I have been wanting for a long time.

Supporting supporting three scenarios would be great.
1) files stored on a server.
2) files stored on a common network location.
3) files stored locally (but they are synchronized manually). Music on laptop is the most common scenario.

Also,
Although this is this direction is wonderful it is also dangerous and the details require some thought.

I wonder how synchronization would be propagated and the conflicts would be resolved, when:

1) If the same tags are edited with multiple people at the same time. (i.e. ratings).
2) when playlists are updated at the same time.
3) new items are added or *removed* on group tags.
4) when the values of tags are deleted.

JimH · « **Reply #20 on:** June 11, 2009, 01:31:20 pm »

Quote from: Tolga on June 11, 2009, 01:28:08 pm

Supporting supporting three scenarios would be great.
1) files stored on a server.
2) files stored on a common network location.
3) files stored locally (but they are synchronized manually). Music on laptop is the most common scenario.

All of these work now. The only requirement is that MC has imported the files so that Library Server can serve them.

Pjedro · « **Reply #21 on:** June 11, 2009, 03:15:55 pm »

Quote

2. I hope you will also think about access control lists based on computer/client or preferably the users. You can limit users or clients to certain areas of the library (music only is one example). One person can have full read and write and others just write to certain parts of the library. This would make this system friendly for ALL family members and visiting friends as well. Think of the disaster that could happen if someone tags a lot of tracks and you don't listen to them and don't see the changes for months.
As a MINIMUM there should be a way of locking down a client for writing to the library (only updating number listened).

Very important for me too!

zirum · « **Reply #22 on:** June 20, 2009, 05:04:53 am »

I'm glad to see this functionality to finally get implemented!

The only thing I miss now, to be able to use library server from work, is seperated proxy configuration in MC.
(work policy restrict change in proxy for IE, and default proxy does not allow MC traffic...)

cattani · « **Reply #23 on:** June 20, 2009, 06:03:14 am »

can i listen music from another pc with LIBRARY SERVER ?
i try this but says "the path is not correct"

JimH · « **Reply #24 on:** June 20, 2009, 07:57:15 am »

Quote from: cattani on June 20, 2009, 06:03:14 am

can i listen music from another pc with LIBRARY SERVER ?
i try this but says "the path is not correct"

Yes. Please start by reading this:
http://wiki.jrmediacenter.com/index.php/Servers

zxsix · « **Reply #25 on:** June 20, 2009, 12:10:01 pm »

Quote from: zirum on June 20, 2009, 05:04:53 am

I'm glad to see this functionality to finally get implemented!

The only thing I miss now, to be able to use library server from work, is seperated proxy configuration in MC.
(work policy restrict change in proxy for IE, and default proxy does not allow MC traffic...)

If I were you'd I'd set up a VPN server on your computer at home. There are many ways to do this. I have a hardware firewall with vpn capability. You can check out openvnp for a software solution.
I use MC Library Server quite often over vpn connection with my laptop when I'm working in other states.
Now that I can change ratings remotely, my face looks like this ->

cattani · « **Reply #26 on:** June 21, 2009, 05:26:26 am »

Quote from: JimH on June 20, 2009, 07:57:15 am

Yes. Please start by reading this:
http://wiki.jrmediacenter.com/index.php/Servers

now works fine !
pretty cool function

Marquis · « **Reply #27 on:** June 24, 2009, 03:52:16 am »

Great idea and I'm looking forward to it.

However as I control MC with the COM-interface PLEASE do not forget to implement any useful function (e.g. the manual sync feature) there. A second point is that the library-server should be implemented as real windows-service as well, so that a user does not need to log-in (real server support).

Thanks! You guys are great!
Marc

park · « **Reply #28 on:** June 25, 2009, 10:28:51 am »

Will the "rename, move and copy" tool work properly using the client, if it has access to all of the unc paths?
How about the "update tags from files" and "update files from tags"?

Marty3d · « **Reply #29 on:** June 25, 2009, 11:10:42 am »

It seems that deleting files (remove from library, recycle file) doesn't work (don't know if it's supposed to, though).

ChrisRainman · « **Reply #30 on:** July 11, 2009, 03:22:27 pm »

Quote from: Matt on June 09, 2009, 06:26:09 pm

... We would add a command "Synchronize with Library Server" that would transmit any changes to the server, and download any changes made by other clients.

To start, this command would be run manually. It would handle tag changes and playlist changes. It would not handle addition of new files on the client, since this would require transmitting the actual file to the server. If multiple clients made conflicting changes, the last change submitted would win (as opposed to showing a conflict resolution user interface).

One appealing aspect of this approach is that the library would continue to operate at full speed during normal use since everything resides locally. The system would not be going to a server for every search, every get, etc. It would only need to talk with the server at synchronize time.

Thoughts?

When will the syncronization be available? I've tested around for a while and it seems like changes on the client side are not updated in the main library attached to the server. Can you confirm that this is not yet in place?

Matt · « **Reply #31 on:** July 12, 2009, 03:02:00 pm »

Quote from: ChrisRainman on July 11, 2009, 03:22:27 pm

When will the syncronization be available? I've tested around for a while and it seems like changes on the client side are not updated in the main library attached to the server. Can you confirm that this is not yet in place?

From the File > Library menu, choose "Library Sync..."

This will be made more automatic in the coming weeks.

park · « **Reply #32 on:** July 13, 2009, 10:02:51 pm »

Do you plan to allow applying cover art to files from a client? Currently they get applied to the ip address of the server (thereby nothing happens) instead of the directory specified in the options.

Shiraz · « **Reply #33 on:** July 20, 2009, 04:21:27 pm »

WOW! I'm soooooooooooo happy this has been implemented. Tremote was almost kind of pointless without it, because I needed to have a separate remote desktop connection to the server whenever I wanted to do some tag changes -- which of course happens all the time!

It will be sweet when this is even more integrated, ie. not needing to select the Library Sync command. As it is now, when I run the sync, it resets my tremote client to the local zone (I want it to play on the server) AND it stops the song. So, slightly annoying for now. But darn happy it's there!

I just love Media Center!!!

maddman · « **Reply #34 on:** February 20, 2010, 03:15:06 pm »

Quote from: Matt on July 12, 2009, 03:02:00 pm

From the File > Library menu, choose "Library Sync..."

This will be made more automatic in the coming weeks.

When is this feature going to be more automatic. I love this feature and would like to see, in my ipod options, to Run a Library Sync after it gets ipod stats. I would also like it to run a library sync before shutdown of media center.

jroyale · « **Reply #35 on:** February 20, 2010, 05:51:39 pm »

I have another post for my question but I'll throw my hat in the ring there since it seems like a good place to discuss.

I want to sync audio playlists from my upstairs computer to my downstairs computer which is hosting the files and running media server. They have 2 seperate libraries right now (I don't want to use the same library for other reasons). I can sync but the changes I've made to the downstairs computer playlists don't show on the upstairs computer. Is this because the file paths for the files are different? Will I have to put those audio files on my nas and have both filepaths the same with the same drive letter?

I think this might be it but I was hoping...and now that I think about it i'm sure it is. Confirmation would be great.

Thanks.

Tolga · « **Reply #36 on:** February 20, 2010, 06:32:52 pm »

A related discussion is using multiple instances of MC on the same machine and keeping the library in sync. Maybe that can be handled with a local server client model.

jroyale · « **Reply #37 on:** February 20, 2010, 06:40:09 pm »

Aaaand you lost me.

Tolga · « **Reply #38 on:** February 20, 2010, 10:31:29 pm »

madman, are you running MC on MS-DOS

rpalmer68 · « **Reply #39 on:** February 21, 2010, 07:04:36 am »

Quote from: park on July 13, 2009, 10:02:51 pm

Do you plan to allow applying cover art to files from a client? Currently they get applied to the ip address of the server (thereby nothing happens) instead of the directory specified in the options.

I've just run into this issue too.

I ripped a CD on my client to my shared media drive x: (both client and Library Server have same X: mapped) and also applied the cover art to the files on the client. Am using .ape files and have option selected to store cover art in file and also in x:\coverart folder.

I then sync'd library on the client. The CD appeared in server library but coverart is all "192.68.1.11:81 X:\coverart\..."

So I had to go to the server and assign the cover art on the server. Then art became "inside file".

Would be very handy if this can be fixed so I can rip and assign cover art via the cleint.

Cheers
Richard

jroyale · « **Reply #40 on:** February 22, 2010, 12:27:32 pm »

Ya I'm lost here. When you say server are you talking about the instance of mc running on the computer running the server or the actual media center server? When I'm running the service it is simply an icon in the notification area. Sorry if they seem like basic questions but I'm completely new to the server concept.

What I'm getting out of all of this is that if I want to sync 2 libraries (playlists) I have to have the playlist files (mp3's) mapped on both systems with the same file path?

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Author Topic: Next -- Read and write when using Library Server? (Read 6623 times)