Topic: What do you tag with DVD movies? (Read 5225 times)

benn600 · « **on:** July 19, 2009, 07:39:08 pm »

I am starting to go through and tag my collection of movies. Here I will briefly detail out my process and feedback may help improve my process.

1. I use three web sites: Amazon, Rotten Tomatoes, and IMDB. All three are needed to get the most complete data set, I find.
2. I tag:
Name
Actors
Director
Disc #
Grouping (Movies, Television, ...)
Length (2 hr 22 min)
MPAA Rating (R)
MPAA Rating Description (Innuendo, grisly horror.)
Series (Scream)
Date (10/23/2007)
Studio
Genre (Horror)
Rating

I get everything from Amazon except the rating, which is from Rotten Tomatoes, and MPAA Rating Description/Genre which are conveniently listed on IMDB. I keep genre simple and choose the best fit from the many listed. I am going to start working on some useful view schemes (theater view especially) and am trying to figure out the most efficient, usable combination of items.

Once I mostly finish this phase, I will add episode lists to each television disc. This way at least I can choose an episode and get the disc started--then I'll have to choose the specific episode from the menu.

rick.ca · « **Reply #1 on:** July 19, 2009, 10:33:52 pm »

Have you considered using Personal Video Database to download and maintain the metadata, and the PvdImport plugin to import that into MC? Once set up, it will make the whole process more or less automatic. Unless you have a very small collection, or really really enjoy manual tagging, I think you'll find that much more efficient.

fitbrit · « **Reply #2 on:** July 20, 2009, 01:42:58 am »

Quote from: rick.ca on July 19, 2009, 10:33:52 pm

Have you considered using Personal Video Database to download and maintain the metadata, and the PvdImport plugin to import that into MC? Once set up, it will make the whole process more or less automatic. Unless you have a very small collection, or really really enjoy manual tagging, I think you'll find that much more efficient.

Ha! I said the same thing to him in another thread... only not as well put. I just did about a week of experimentation with mymovies and pvd and reading threads on here and the pvd forums. I tried making the custom plain text export mpl files in PVD, but that made a mess- "duration" was filled with "language" instead etc. I then stumbled across the PVDImport plugin. After a few false starts I figured out its idiosyncracies, and now it works very well for mass import. The most tedious part is making sure PVD gets the right data, and that your [Name] fields are filled out as close to the actual film title as possible.

rick.ca · « **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2009, 04:19:47 am »

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The most tedious part is making sure PVD gets the right data, and that your [Name] fields are filled out as close to the actual film title as possible.

Would it not be easier just to use the "actual film title" in the first place?

It might be difficult for me to see it from your perspective. I actually use PVD to maintain a movie database, not just to get and feed metadata to MC. So all the information is correct, and all I have to do is import it. I really don't care what MC thinks [Name] should be—I overwrite it with the actual film title from PVD.

darichman · « **Reply #4 on:** July 20, 2009, 06:30:30 am »

Ben, I'll reiterate what others have said and recommend PVD and PVDImport - I know you're as obsessive about getting things right as we are and, with a bit of tweaking the combination of MC, PVD and PVDImport is very powerful. It will save you a lot of time and effort!

The issue you mention with duration and filesize of DVDs is still an issue, and it's not something either MC or PVD do really well... I guess it's complicated as the program would need to read the DVD file, examine the contents and then pick which video title to use within the DVD structure. The developers could open up these fields to be editable, but I can't see that happening soon...

The upside is that you can import duration data from online sites like IMDb, AMG etc if you decided to use a custom field for this purpose.

A hint for those who have had trouble making sure PVD downloads the right info (ie if your filenames aren't consistent) - if you are beginning from the position of already having your files in MC, and have labeled the titles (ie movie names) in any field ([Name] , [Movie] or whatever), you can copy/paste the info from any view directly into an excel spreadsheet (all you need is the movie name and the full filename) and then import this into PVD. This will ensure you have proper titles in PVD and that titles will be consistent between the two programs with any further syncs/imports.

Good luck Ben, with whatever you decide - and let us know if you have any issues or insights you'd like to share

benn600 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 20, 2009, 10:33:41 am »

I added another field Length and am perfectly fine with that. With all the power and customization ability, it almost doesn't matter. I will take a look at the programs mentioned. I think part of the problem is that I am still working some of the technicalities out--for the overall method of managing and viewing content (movies vs. television), trying to figure out what MC is capable of and how to make things work as good as they can. Entering some of the data by hand gives me the chance to think this through and consider other options.

MC is really starting to improve in some areas I have really wanted.

I, too, noticed the two almost identical posts and couldn't figure out if it was a bot or what!
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=52978.0

fitbrit · « **Reply #6 on:** July 20, 2009, 08:41:01 pm »

Quote from: rick.ca on July 20, 2009, 04:19:47 am

Would it not be easier just to use the "actual film title" in the first place?

Absolutely! If I'd not already had the movies imported into MC and named in a way I wanted. For example, I have the Alien movies in an album called Alien Series. Then, to make sure that they appear in order I've named them as Alien 1, Alien 2 - Aliens, Alien 3, Alien 4 - Alien Resurrection. That was before I even had ever heard of PVD. Now I see that I could retain this type of nomenclature, but introduce other custom fields such as [Movie Title] and then use the real titles for PVD.

Quote from: rick.ca on July 20, 2009, 04:19:47 am

It might be difficult for me to see it from your perspective. I actually use PVD to maintain a movie database, not just to get and feed metadata to MC. So all the information is correct, and all I have to do is import it. I really don't care what MC thinks [Name] should be—I overwrite it with the actual film title from PVD.

I would do this except that I include the movie title in my filename, and as you know you cannot have colons in the filename. Therefore, I always replace a ":" with a " - ". That confused PVD sometimes. I think I should reorganise my data in the near future. Thankfully, it's much easier to do so on a bigger scale now.

fitbrit · « **Reply #7 on:** July 20, 2009, 09:38:00 pm »

Ben, in case you need somewhere to start from:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=52145.0

rick.ca · « **Reply #8 on:** July 20, 2009, 10:58:29 pm »

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Now I see that I could retain this type of nomenclature, but introduce other custom fields such as [Movie Title] and then use the real titles for PVD.

True. But I was kidding! I also change Title in PVD to suit my own needs. That's what it's for—a display name—that you will recognize, that will sort correctly, etc. There's a separate field for Original title. But I think the issue mentioned involved the need for PVD to execute a search to find the correct record in an online database—normally the IMDb. The IMDb search is normally very effective in finding all likely candidates. It's not likely to be affected by replacing a ":" with a "-", or even using an AKA or translated title instead of the actual. The problem is determining the unique/correct match. The likelihood of that is improved much more by providing the year in addition to the title. Once the match has been made, PVD uses the URL for subsequent updates. So you can change the title to whatever you like.

None of this has anything directly to do with MC, and I think that's the main point. There are many issues involved with finding, downloading and managing metadata for movies. It's much more effective to use an application designed for this purpose, and import the results to MC.

Daydream · « **Reply #9 on:** July 21, 2009, 12:24:20 am »

Quote from: rick.ca on July 20, 2009, 10:58:29 pm

It's much more effective to use an application designed for this purpose, and import the results to MC.

Can I whisper "scrappers - nfo files- support in MC?"

rick.ca · « **Reply #10 on:** July 21, 2009, 04:55:29 am »

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Can I whisper "scrappers - nfo files- support in MC?"

If you like. But why would we want that when we've got a perfectly good freeware application for the job?

benn600 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 21, 2009, 10:15:57 am »

What view schemes does everyone use? At the moment I was thinking genre (horror, comedy, etc.), MPAA Rating (G, PG, ...), Director, Actor, Year...

Are there any other good ones?

The problem I run into is that I like each of these but once someone picks a year or actor, should they just be shown a list of movies (Name)? Or should they then (or prior-to) get genre to narrow it down? It's tough because there are so many combinations of fields to select on.

fitbrit · « **Reply #12 on:** July 21, 2009, 11:59:01 am »

Quote from: benn600 on July 21, 2009, 10:15:57 am

What view schemes does everyone use? At the moment I was thinking genre (horror, comedy, etc.), MPAA Rating (G, PG, ...), Director, Actor, Year...

Are there any other good ones?

The problem I run into is that I like each of these but once someone picks a year or actor, should they just be shown a list of movies (Name)? Or should they then (or prior-to) get genre to narrow it down? It's tough because there are so many combinations of fields to select on.

There's always "All Genres" as the first pick if the user doesn't want to deal with it once they've selected "Jackie Chan"

benn600 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 21, 2009, 12:07:46 pm »

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There's always "All Genres" as the first pick if the user doesn't want to deal with it once they've selected "Jackie Chan"

Very true and I have used that before. There are so many combinations!

rick.ca · « **Reply #14 on:** July 21, 2009, 02:12:24 pm »

Quote from: benn600 on July 21, 2009, 10:15:57 am

The problem I run into is that I like each of these but once someone picks a year or actor, should they just be shown a list of movies (Name)? Or should they then (or prior-to) get genre to narrow it down? It's tough because there are so many combinations of fields to select on.

In Standard View, I use a "Panes and Details" scheme—for this very reason. I can include a pane for any category that interests me, and quickly select any combination of criteria. More importantly, I can modify the criteria in any way and see the results instantly. This, of course, just gives me a list. I'm left with the problem of how to actually review the information in detail, as much of it consists of long text and list fields.

In Theater View, there is no equivalent to the functionality provided by Panes in Standard View. We only have a rigid hierarchical navigation system which, you seem to have discovered, just doesn't work for movies. There was much discussion about this and what might be done about it in Theater View Navigation and Info Panel.

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Are there any other good ones?

Depends what you mean by "good"... Type, rating(s), runtime, moods, tones, studio, screenwriter, composer, country, language, budget, box office, tag line, synopsis, review, video and audio media info. And for series: series title, season, episode. Remember, you're not bound by the standard video fields provided—you can add whatever custom fields you need. In a number of cases, this is necessary even if a standard field is provided—the ones provided are not necessarily the type needed. For example, Genre is a string field, but for movies a list field is required. I append a "." to my custom fields so I can have "Genre." and not confuse it with "Genre" (I'd like to be able to exclude the latter in Manage Library Fields, but this is not permitted).

Quote from: fitbrit on July 21, 2009, 11:59:01 am

There's always "All Genres" as the first pick if the user doesn't want to deal with it once they've selected "Jackie Chan"

That's fine if you're picking something as specific as one actor. For most collections, that one choice is going to result in a short enough list that it doesn't make sense to narrow it any further. But using more general categories (e.g., genre, year, rating), you have make a selection from a number of categories to result in a usable list. Using the current Theater View navigation scheme, we have to make a choice in each category (it might be "all") in the order they occur. To make any changes, we have to "backup" and then redo all the selections. It just doesn't work for movies.

Daydream · « **Reply #15 on:** July 21, 2009, 04:22:07 pm »

Quote from: rick.ca on July 21, 2009, 04:55:29 am

If you like. But why would we want that when we've got a perfectly good freeware application for the job?

You're using PVD, a collection software - as a scrapper (well you are using it properly for other things too, but I'm saying in general). The combination works well thanks to Raldo and his plugin but let's not lose perspective where we are, by becoming addicted to what we are comfortable. PVD it's not everything in this world even if it's really good at what is doing. There are programs out there - all free BTW - that scrape more information, sometimes with better logic (less confirmations necessary). If MC goes the way of dealing with external files (sidecar) I don't see why we shouldn't really put the idea to work and have a program that would create meta-information files (nfo), posters and whatnot in every video file directory and MC can import them from there. It's half the number of steps, and we'd be using something that's dedicated for the purpose not going to great distances just to come up with a solution because MC will never have a built-in scrapper for videos (movies in this case). Although if I think about it, thetvdb.com and themoviedb.org are free. (food for thought for other discussion)

Regarding something else, more on topic. I have two problems with the "Actors" field.

1) With all my movies having Actors metadata off IMDB (meaning the entire cast for every movie), and with an "Actors" section in my "Panes and Detail" view, every time I select all movies (or a big chunk of them) to perform some action, everything freezes for a noticeable amount of time, until MC is responsive again. We're talking some 3-400 movies currently. I'm curious if it's just me, or if this is a sign that we overdid it here importing stuff like crazy. Not having an "Actors" section resolved the problem.

2) The Actor\Role style of tagging results in a nice view in Panes and Details but its visual impact in Theater View is less appealing. I'm not sure if anything can be done to improve that.

benn600 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 21, 2009, 04:28:22 pm »

I've been adding the actors listed on Amazon which is 3 - 8 people usually. I find this too many. In general I would rather have the big ones plus a one or two smaller ones. The problem is that when I pull up the actors screen there are a ton of one-shot people. Or...I always realize this later...I should enter them all but then only display actors with two or more movies. Of course that would be a pain too.

What about the issue of adding firstName lastName...having MC sort by last name. Has this been addressed before? Am I missing something? Amazon displays with firstName first and rewriting these is a pain by hand.

raldo · « **Reply #17 on:** July 21, 2009, 05:50:00 pm »

Quote from: Daydream on July 21, 2009, 04:22:07 pm

1) With all my movies having Actors metadata off IMDB (meaning the entire cast for every movie), and with an "Actors" section in my "Panes and Detail" view, every time I select all movies (or a big chunk of them) to perform some action, everything freezes for a noticeable amount of time, until MC is responsive again. We're talking some 3-400 movies currently. I'm curious if it's just me, or if this is a sign that we overdid it here importing stuff like crazy. Not having an "Actors" section resolved the problem.

I'm not seeing this kind of freeze on my system (500 movies), maybe there's something else going on?

benn600 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 21, 2009, 06:49:26 pm »

I highly doubt this is normal behavior. 500 items is small compared to some of the other users who reportedly have 300K+ items in their MC installation. Surely they are calculating big selected fields on larger libraries.

Daydream · « **Reply #19 on:** July 21, 2009, 07:15:14 pm »

Quote from: benn600 on July 21, 2009, 06:49:26 pm

I highly doubt this is normal behavior. 500 items is small compared to some of the other users who reportedly have 300K+ items in their MC installation. Surely they are calculating big selected fields on larger libraries.

I know that. I was reading Matt's description of how things work with searches and panes and stuff in another thread. It's not the matter of no. of items, it's the no. of items (movies), times no. of actors per movie, times whatever else I have on Panes and Details (custom fields and so on) and how all these lists need to be refiled, wait on each other, etc as I make a selection. I do admit that I filled in fields in MC in a kind of abusive way (too much stuff), and that there may be some peculiar aspects of my rig (remember I mentioned TrueCrypt; no idea if it influences anything at this point). Indeed it might just be my case.

rick.ca · « **Reply #20 on:** July 21, 2009, 11:43:37 pm »

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PVD it's not everything in this world even if it's really good at what is doing.

I'm shocked. Why didn't you tell me this before?!

Of course there's other stuff out there. But there's more to it than just scraping data from a particular site. Like the file scanning function, combining results from multiple sources, keeping everything up-to-date, etc. Yes, I suppose you might assume all this would be taken care of by your idea of MC "supporting" scrapers. And obviously it would be more efficient if everything could be done by MC. But is J River going to do it? I don't think so. Even if they were capable and willing, I think they would have to be concerned about getting to close to metadata copyright issues. Users are free to do what they want with publicly available information—for their own use. If J River is seen as doing it for them, the situation is a lot less clear.

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It's not the matter of no. of items, it's the no. of items (movies), times no. of actors per movie, times whatever else I have on Panes and Details (custom fields and so on) and how all these lists need to be refiled, wait on each other, etc as I make a selection.

I think you're probably right. My machine is so old/slow it's hardly a surprise, but I've experienced the same thing. (My theory is MC expects to be able to read all selected items into memory.) I'm actually more surprised that MC works at all since I added my 800+ movies with 13,000+ people (including all the actors' roles!). And that's after limiting the number of actors to 15 per movie. Not doing that is asking for trouble. Even if your machine can handle it, including full credits is far too much to be usable—MC not being relational and all.

benn600 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 22, 2009, 12:05:28 am »

I, personally, am appalled!

Daydream · « **Reply #22 on:** July 22, 2009, 02:15:20 am »

Quote from: rick.ca on July 21, 2009, 11:43:37 pm

I'm shocked. Why didn't you tell me this before?!

Err... things evolve my friend, things get discovered, get compared

.

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Even if they were capable and willing, I think they would have to be concerned about getting to close to metadata copyright issues.

Let's tackle that a bit. What's copyrighted? (I'm no expert). The listing of who plays in a movie/series? I rather doubt that very much. You can't copyright somebody's name or a sequence of names

. A database, a solution/manner/method of delivery, that can be own and/or copyrighted. The links I mentioned above have content put together by fans, in free databases, anybody can edit them. I believe there's even an API or something how to interact with them, and I only see guidelines for use by commercial apps, not restrictions.

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I think you're probably right. My machine is so old/slow it's hardly a surprise, but I've experienced the same thing. (My theory is MC expects to be able to read all selected items into memory.) I'm actually more surprised that MC works at all since I added my 800+ movies with 13,000+ people (including all the actors' roles!). And that's after limiting the number of actors to 15 per movie. Not doing that is asking for trouble. Even if your machine can handle it, including full credits is far too much to be usable—MC not being relational and all.

Yeap, that's it. I only have 5677 actors listed so far. If I select all movies and then right click on the selection, it takes 30 seconds or more until the right-click menu appears. The second core alone gets pushed to almost 100%. Without the Actors pane, everything is instantaneous. Guess I need to start trimming.

rick.ca · « **Reply #23 on:** July 22, 2009, 04:28:02 am »

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The links I mentioned above have content put together by fans, in free databases, anybody can edit them.

Exactly. And the quality and consistency of the data reflects this. I prefer sources that generously provide data (for my personal use) that is subject to some editorial standards. Besides, I suspect copyright still applies. For example, if J River were to make data from any particular database available to the users of their commercial program, surely there would be a cause of action—unless permission was granted or implied.

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You can't copyright somebody's name or a sequence of names.

Right. That's why you're permitted to tag that information while watching the credits roll.

raldo · « **Reply #24 on:** July 24, 2009, 05:00:55 pm »

Quote from: rick.ca on July 21, 2009, 11:43:37 pm

expects to be able to read all selected items into memory.) I'm actually more surprised that MC works at all since I added my 800+ movies with 13,000+ people (including all the actors' roles!). And that's after limiting the number of actors to 15 per movie. Not doing that is asking for trouble. Even if your machine can handle it, including full credits is far too much to be usable—MC not being relational and all.

Just for information: I now have 1400 movies imported in MC. That yields 55000 people (nested), 891 directors, 17000 actors. The data is imported from Personal Video Database.

My viewschemes have filters (disk location etc). MC doesn't slow down, freeze, or behave oddly when I open the viewschemes. It's just as smooth as with my music schemes. And that's on an "old" AMD XP3500+ machine.

Btw. I exported my listings from Movielens, so many of these movies are "dummies" (I posted a feature request a while ago where I describe a "Virtual Record" where movies you have seen can be logged in MC without actually storing the media on disk. But I'm stuck with dummy files for now...)

JimH · « **Reply #25 on:** July 24, 2009, 07:46:42 pm »

I split the memory discussion to a new thread.

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Author Topic: What do you tag with DVD movies? (Read 5225 times)