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Author Topic: Tangible improvements in the core product  (Read 24567 times)

Sauzee

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Re: Tangible improvements in the core product
« Reply #100 on: September 12, 2009, 02:49:13 pm »

The one major thing that MC could develop which would meet my needs as a user is too offer more and better ways of getting metadata for all media. At the moment we have to use other software to get access to that metadata. Its not a good solution.

I keep hearing about copyright issues and such, but other shareware and freeware seems to have access to a much wider range of data sources. Why not MC. Maybe it will cost them something, but hey so does working on all these TV recording etc developments which don't appear to be widely used by users.
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tunetyme

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Re: Tangible improvements in the core product
« Reply #101 on: September 12, 2009, 05:23:10 pm »

I am very happy to see all the comments coming in from a wide range of viewpoints as well as a larger number of members who are not mega posters.  From what I am reading this should be good feedback to Jim & Matt.  I hope more people will add their thoughts as well.  Its' all about how to make MC better and more successful.  Welcome Beth UK, it is never too late to add your thoughts to this thread.  The objective is to have a broader audience comment on what they would like to see in MC.  We all benefit from every-one's recommendations.

Edit: Now I noticed that you have added a couple of paragraphs to your reply. As regards the comments on Squeezeboxes: The software controlling the hardware Squeezeboxes (called SqueezCenter) is open source so there is really no need to strike a deal or even co-operate with the SqueezeBox company (now Logitech). SqueezeBoxes can play flac files over a wireless connection and sync several players. I consider the currently available range of SqueezeBoxes to be mature products.

I've been looking at Squeezebox and Transporter since I first read their review in Sterophile.  At 2k a pop for Transporter it seemed a little steep.  I have been working on a house design and part of the questions have been how to wire the house or go completely wireless.  One Transporter is less than the cost to wire the whole house but f I need 3 o 4 Transporters then that may be a different matter.  The multi zone capability of MC was one of my criteria for buying it.  While the cost for mass storage keeps dropping, will it ever be economical to store thousands of 1080p movies?  I saw another thread about building a petabyte server (as I recall with 67GB per unit for about 8K per unit.  You would need 15 units and I am not sure that I want to take on the kind maintenance that would be required to keep up with it.  I can see it now, hiring 4 or 5 techs just to maintain it 24/7 vs. a library of bluray discs.  A couple of bookcases looks pretty attractive and they can operate on sneaker net.  Very reliable on delivery but not on return.

Tunetyme     
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leezer3

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Re: Tangible improvements in the core product
« Reply #102 on: September 12, 2009, 05:37:59 pm »

Jim,
Please don't think that any of this this is criticism, it's not :)
MC is one of the two indespensable bits of software on my PC, and everything I say is intended to make it better.

First thing, I believe you *really* need to hire someone to work for a week or two on the Wiki, and some aspects of your websites. The OneRemote is an extremely good idea (Even though I was sceptical of the initial proposal), but I think that the website could do with some more 'shinyness'- A little flash intro and some graphics would make the whole page more appealing. Similarly, there are huge amounts of things that are present already within MC, but which simply aren't documented.
Paying someone to work through everything, adding a selection of screenshots and videos to demonstrate points would make a massive difference.

Second, all over the place there are things that need a little polish. You've constantly adding new features, which is one of the best attractions of MC, but there are often little things that get left undone, or don't quite work right. Fixing these so that everything feels natural will in my opinion help attract the audiophile subset.

Final point, there are some things that are being almost forced upon us (I apologise for the blunt wording of this, but it's the only way I can think of to get this point across).
The prime example here I'd point to is the non-roller theatre view skins- There are those of us who want to keep the buttons, and I'm dissapointed that MC is moving towards the single option of rollers. Perhaps the best aspect of MC is it's customisability, and I'd hate to see use loose this in favour of something that doesn't have universal support. I appreciate how much of a pain it is to maintain multiple separate systems, but TBQH in the end of things it'll attract more customers, as the choice is there.

-Leezer-


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rick.ca

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Re: Tangible improvements in the core product
« Reply #103 on: September 12, 2009, 09:29:21 pm »

I don't disagree—choice is always good—but isn't there a conflict here? It seems to me the same new user/potential customer who would be impressed by "polish" is likely to ask, "Buttons, rollers... why can't you make up your mind?!" Choice is easy to value if the alternative is to lose what you're used to, or if you just like having the option to change. But I'm sure most new users, while perhaps still valuing choice and flexibility, also appreciate not having to make a choice. When learning and adjusting to software as comprehensive and complex as this, it's nice to be able to look at some aspects of it and think, "Wow, this is perfect. I never would have thought of this. I can't imagine it any other way." If they're anything like rest of us, they'll eventually imagine lots of better ways. But it's still important to be able to feel this way in the early days. For me, it's what makes me commit to an application, and drive myself to learn the rest of it so I can make the choices I really need to make.

Besides, since Theater View is the core product, this is the one place where there should be no choice. ;D
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Listener

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Re: Tangible improvements in the core product
« Reply #104 on: September 12, 2009, 09:34:31 pm »


Besides, since Theater View is the core product, this is the one place where there should be no choice. ;D

As far as I'm concerned, standard view is the core of the product.  I use MC for audio mostly and I don't view the UI on a TV.

Bill
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jacky

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Re: Tangible improvements in the core product
« Reply #105 on: September 13, 2009, 12:15:28 am »

I started out as a user of the music functionality of Media Center with HEAVY relieance on Theater View.  Like most people, I originated from the MCE2005 camp.  At the time, MC was in it's 11 or 12th revision, still unusable for my purposes.  MCE2005 was BY FAR the smoothest GUI and succeeded in being the jack of all trades.  It's ability to handle TV Tuner (playback/recording/TV Guide), Music, DVD Playback/Rip, Videos... basically all my needs through the comfort of my IR Remote as unparallel.  While Music is what I use my HTPC 85% of the time, without the other features, it would be a dealbreaker.  The simple reason is that, as a HTPC user, a media center that IS NOT all-in-one / universal means that in order to play another media type outside the scope of the current media center requires the user to switch to Mouse and Keyboard controls to manually access the Windows Interface to switch to another Media Center.  This is an UNACCEPTABLE characteristic for an HTPC.  Medio, Media Portal, Linux MCE and many others that came and went on my HTPC, each had various deal breaking issues, ranging from bugginess, missing features, poor usabilty (ie: 3 feet Remote Interface), poor configurability.  MC12 was certainly the best in the music management, but the deal breaker for me was subpar 3 feet Remote Control interface, namely MC's Theater View, and buggy TV Tuner and limited tuning features working in Theater View

While it showed promise, I decided to keep it in the HTPC Internet BookMarks but stayed with MCE2003 because it was the only one that could meet my minimal requirements (albeit not exactly acing with flying colors)

With the arrival of MC13, there finally came a true alternative to MCE2005 and Vista MCE.  Its 3feet Remote Control Interface, the Theater View was no longer just a marketing gimmick, but a full feature Interface, in many respects better than Microsoft's MCEs.  The theater view front end finally closely paralleled the playback of all features of the actually JRiver Media Center backend.   I was delighted to find superb configurability of the Theater View.  While the activation of the TV XML Info wasn't seamless, the TV Tuner finally works properly for me.   With these new features, I finally switched to JRiver MC (jMC).  

After Months of enjoying satisfying Music management experience with MC13, I finally decide to experiment with the Video feature of jMC.  I have a 4TBs of Video files and have always been a long time user of the plain old mplayer, but these videos were always off limits to my family members who were a little less computer savvy.  After experimenting with MC13's video management, I was satisfied.  My family members found the ability to access our movies based on fields like Genre, Series, and Type from their Remote Control via Theater View, much to their liking. In parties or get together, the Theater View full of properly organized Movie poster titles is always a delight to show off to friends and family.  Gone are the days of endless embarrassing browsing from a folder to folder of cryptic names containing movie files.  Movies are now attractively accessible to everyone including computer dummies.  

One thing that I believe prevents people from taking complete advantage of jMC's features is that, jMC isn't quite user friendly enough for people to comfortably explore beyond their perceived safety boundaries.  (jRC’s interface friendliness is certainly no iPod/iTunes) I had a hard time configuring the Video Management to the way I want.  There are still a few things I want, but don't know how to do.  Once there is a basic step by step Wizard encouraging people to do more with less effort, I believe people will start taking advantage of the extra features available in jMC.  For example, WMP practically automates everything for you, even without your command.  All of a sudden you see your images and videos organized there in WMP Library and in MCE, and you can't help but click on them to see what happens.  This kind of automation and user friendliness is what leads people to seamlessly and naturally take advantage of new features without even noticing it.  This is but just a small example of the kind of seamless integration possible as jMC grows into the future.  So far jMC while powerful, as still very manual, especially in its Video Management.  Additionally, much of the requests about separating jMCs Videos and Music features; I believe stems from the lack of integration between its components, ie: Videos, Images and Music.  Currently, these features are designed with little dependencies and interaction between each other.  It is almost as if they are acting as separate programs.  If there could be some integration between these features people would see the value and synergy possible only from an all-in-one package, for example,

1.) the ability to identify the names of soundtracks, artists in each movie, with options to rip the sound segment to the music library from the video and/or buy the sound track.  
2.) the ability to associate photo albums with music albums during slide playback
3.) the ability to identify the movies that is associated with each song, and vice versa (this one is probably next to impossble to do)
4.) the ability to provide the option to download images, sound effects, and soundtracks relevant to each movie in the movie library
5.) a search box that searches across all media, movies, music, images

Above are just some example for better integration I whipped up, off the top of my head, surely there are many better ones to be thought of given the will and effort.

Given the ever increasing storage capacity of HTPCs, I believe we will be hard pressed to manage anything manually by ourselves in the near future.  Music will hardly be the only thing we require our media centers to manage. Local media centers of tomorrow will hold everything from our commercial entertainment to our most precious digitized moments; an external memory storage for the brain.  At least until cloud computing becomes available and next to free.

With improvements along these lines, people will be much more welcoming of jMC's expansion efforts since they will actually be able to effortlessly take advantage of it.

Other Features I would to see (in no particular order):
-fix the currently broken CUE file conversion to separate music files when exporting to a handheld device
-automatic TV XML Info based on location, no more need to go to 3rd party site to download something
-Much Improved Help Documentation, both in content and in navigation.
-rip media on HTPC LAN Clients connected to a jMC Server (and have the data sent over the LAN to be stored on the server location obviously)
-rip media from Theater View
-import of Video details from IMDB
-Continuous improvements Theater View features and GUI user friendliness (very important) (the 'feel' is still far from that of MCE, like unpolished Windows Mobile 6 VS iPhone GUI)
-Ability to work properly in all MC functions (ie: rip, convert) CUE files
-Video: Better handling of Filter functions, ie subtitles
-TV Recordings:  ability save in a more portable format, instead of a bunch of jriver proprietary files

 ;D
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brak_brak

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Re: Tangible improvements in the core product
« Reply #106 on: September 13, 2009, 12:49:51 am »

TT,
I split this off because it seems you're suggesting upgrades to the music features in MC that would have broad appeal to music centric users.

Please suggest a few.  We scratch our heads daily about this.


I admit that I now use MC for video podcasts as much as for audio files.  But I have several options for video, while MC is my primary audio player.  What would really, really, really make audio playback more convenient is a better file navigation system.  I still sort my tunes (all 30,000+ of them) logically, by directory, so that I can find things even when the tags go haywire.  I would like the ability to more easily navigate my file system without having to search and pray that something comes up.  I remember when MJ put the directory tree on the left-hand pane so that you could pick the directory to display.  This was many versions ago, but I miss it.  Merge the Audio, Images, and Video buttons into the left-hand pane instead of their current nonintuitive location and make a full data directory tree available, too.  That would make MC a better product. 

Another interface issue is just annoying, but is annoying enough to mention:  When clicking on an item in the left-hand pane, whatever was open automatically closes.  Maybe I just hate having things automatically close, but this constantly bugs me.  If I had wanted it closed, I would have clicked on the little arrow to make it so.  OK, so this probably wouldn't make MC any better, but it would make at least one person less annoyed.  That's something. 

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rick.ca

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Re: Tangible improvements in the core product
« Reply #107 on: September 13, 2009, 01:52:55 am »

Quote
OK, so this probably wouldn't make MC any better, but it would make at least one person less annoyed.

Try turning off Auto expand.

I really think the main feature MC lacks is Feature Search. ;D
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tunetyme

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Re: Tangible improvements in the core product
« Reply #108 on: September 13, 2009, 03:41:51 am »

Jim:

A growing number of members are taking the time to provide you with some valuable insight on how your product is being used.  I have gotten a few ideas on how I can expand my use of MC.  One thought came to mind where I would start using photo management is if I could start putting together slide shows with music.  Since my children are grown it would be nice to be able to export a slide show to Powerpoint and be able to send it to them.

I hope you will comment on some of the suggestions being made.  I especially like the feature search and or a significantly improved wiki.

Tunetyme
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vagskal

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Re: Tangible improvements in the core product
« Reply #109 on: September 13, 2009, 04:26:12 am »

I agree that it would be nice if MC would allow to freely link any library field with any file tag, but the system and user interface would probably be very complex. Each library field would need to have a configuration panel that supports the four different tagging formats that are used in the seven different input plugins (MP3, FLAC, APE, WMA, Ogg Vorbis, Musepack).

That is exactly what I would like to see! It could very well be a hidden feature or an advanced feature with appropriate warnings.

I am not arguing that this possibility should replace the intelligence now provided by MC for the less experienced, or caring, user that would like to have the software "just work". The lack of tagging standards you mentioned makes it hard to come up with intelligent ways of handling different tags. If there for one file format is two or more common tags for the same information, let us say disc number, then the "intelligence" must make decisions on which tag to import into the database and what tag or tags to write back to the file. The more experienced user who know and care about his/her tags will always find something to complain about regarding the way the intelligence work, especially when the intelligence, as is the case today, to a large extent is undocumented and may come as a surprise to the experienced user. Hence the need for the experienced user to create his/her own "intelligence" and still have the benefit of the handy UI provided by MC.
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Beth UK

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Re: Tangible improvements in the core product
« Reply #110 on: September 13, 2009, 06:29:40 am »

What would really, really, really make audio playback more convenient is a better file navigation system.  I still sort my tunes (all 30,000+ of them) logically, by directory, so that I can find things even when the tags go haywire.  I would like the ability to more easily navigate my file system without having to search and pray that something comes up.  I remember when MJ put the directory tree on the left-hand pane so that you could pick the directory to display.  This was many versions ago, but I miss it. 

Yes - I agree with this too - I used to have more time to keep tags updated and pristine but these days (when I get in from work) I just want to find my files quickly and easily based on the file location. I know this can be done by changing the layout and adding root folder etc etc.... but time, time, time...

I cannot rely on tags alone because in many cases the tags are wrong/misleading (especially when purchasing from online stores where 'Reggae' or 'Rock' is so often put as the default genre (why DO they do this?!?!)...
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JimH

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Re: Tangible improvements in the core product
« Reply #111 on: September 13, 2009, 06:51:02 am »

One thought came to mind where I would start using photo management is if I could start putting together slide shows with music. 
A mixed playlist of music and photos will give you a slideshow when you play it.
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tunetyme

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Re: Tangible improvements in the core product
« Reply #112 on: September 13, 2009, 08:55:30 am »


A mixed playlist of music and photos will give you a slideshow when you play it.

Thanks, I give it a try.

I asked a question earlier about exporting data and Matt provided me with a solution.  I wondered if I had missed something in the wiki about this and I couldn't find any reference.  It may be worth considering the suggestion of working on a more robust wiki.

Tunetyme
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JimH

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Re: Tangible improvements in the core product
« Reply #113 on: September 13, 2009, 09:00:46 am »

Thanks, I give it a try.

I asked a question earlier about exporting data and Matt provided me with a solution.  I wondered if I had missed something in the wiki about this and I couldn't find any reference.  It may be worth considering the suggestion of working on a more robust wiki.

Tunetyme
A wiki is open to editing by anyone.
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Sauzee

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Re: Tangible improvements in the core product
« Reply #114 on: September 13, 2009, 01:09:10 pm »

A wiki is open to editing by anyone.

mmm, but you can't expect users to do all the work for you here. If its not there, surely you should be filling the gaps. MC is very powerful and needs a detailed help file to take advantage of all its power.

The wiki is good in some areas but needs work in others.
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JimH

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Re: Tangible improvements in the core product
« Reply #115 on: September 13, 2009, 01:12:05 pm »

mmm, but you can't expect users to do all the work for you here.
You're not doing it all.  Take a look at the Recent Changes on the wiki.
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Gl3nn

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Re: Tangible improvements in the core product
« Reply #116 on: September 13, 2009, 01:37:12 pm »

If this has been asked before, sorry:

...is it possible to download a pdf or txt file of the wiki?
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JimH

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Re: Tangible improvements in the core product
« Reply #117 on: September 13, 2009, 01:40:34 pm »

No.  It isn't.  Sorry.

I'm going to lock this thread now since it's wandering all over.
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