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[Matt]

Every few months, I spend some time playing with Bluray.  I keep hoping it'll be less messy to use on a computer.

I have a problem where Bluray movies often only have Dolby TrueHD audio.  My theater amplifier doesn't do TrueHD decoding and is connected with SPDIF.  This means I can't use the TrueHD formats.

The software I've tried for Bluray playback can output this sound as 2.0 DTS or AC3 but not 5.1 DTS or AC3.

So to get surround sound with all Blurays, I think I need:
$300+ - Dolby / DTS TrueHD amplifier
$100 - Latest PowerDVD or Arcsoft for HDMI 1.3 audio output
$300-$400 - ATI 5xxx series video card for HDMI output with sound support (the computer is used for gaming so a slower card isn't really an option)

Is there any better solution?  It's strange to me that I can have a pretty decent computer (i7, GTX 280) and theater setup but need to spend $1000 to use Bluray audio.

Is there any way to output TrueHD sound down-mixed to 5.1 AC3 / DTS over SPDIF?

Thanks for any help.

[Daydream]

My two cents.

If you really just want to play the sound and see the movie, then the latest ffdshow audio will decode the lossless streams - re-encode TrueHD in plain ac3 5.1 and get the DTS core respectively - and feed the data through SPDIF. From any player that does DirectShow. So you can watch just the movie from let's say MPC-HC. If you however want a player that takes advantage of all things on a Blu-Ray -> BD-Java, BD-live, PiP, chapters, subs, whatnot, you can't avoid the scenario you described. Or you abandon the PC, get a standalone Blu-Ray player that does internal decoding and 5.1 analog output (not sure how many units do this) and use your present receiver.

And I would venture a guess that TrueHD is not that popular (mainly only Warner?) because it requires a second track for compatibility reasons. DTS-MA on the other hand is made of lossy core + additional data to make the lossless track. Because of that a DTS decoder can fall back within the same track without the requirement for other tracks. Just saying.

[Matt]

If you really just want to play the sound and see the movie, then the latest ffdshow audio will decode the lossless streams - re-encode TrueHD in plain ac3 5.1 and get the DTS core respectively - and feed the data through SPDIF. From any player that does DirectShow.

Doesn't this require AnyDVD-HD?  Needing an expensive program that's possibly illegal and that the Blu-ray people would like to lock-out isn't a great solution for me personally or for JRiver to recommend.

[jmone]

Is there any way to output TrueHD sound down-mixed to 5.1 AC3 / DTS over SPDIF?

Hi Matt,

As you know SPDIF does not have the bandwidth for 5.1 PCM or support bitstreaming of any of the newer Codecs (eg it can only do DD, DTS, 2CH PCM).  So if you want to hear any High Definition Multi Channel Audio (one of the big benefits of Blu-ray IMHO) you only have have a few connection choices choices (and all of them will require TMT / PDVD to "play" a disc without ripping it's content):
a) Bitstream:  If you want to decode in your receiver you will need a HDMI 1.3 graphic card that supports bitstreaming (eg ATI 5XXX) + a new HDMI receiver.  TMT (PDVD???) can then pass the bitsteam over the HDMI link to the receiver for decoding, amplification etc.
b) PCM:  The option most had used to date is for TMT / PDVD to decode your selected Audio track to LPCM and transmit this over HDMI (eg ATI HD4XXX+) to a suitably equipped HDMI Receiver or an Analoge connection from your Sound Card to the Analoge in on your Receiver (even your receiver should have these!)

Your only other way of getting sound out is to either play the standard DD/DTS (or 2CH PCM track) or downconvert to these formats.  Both TMT and PDVD should do this for you but the sound at this point is no better than a DVD...and if you are not using a large HD screen...there is no benefit of Blu-ray at all.  If you do have the right equipment it looks and sounds great.

Thanks
Nathan

[jmone]

I added some of this to "7: Blu-ray...Not Seeing and Hearing the Difference?" in the Blu-ray thread http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=55171.0

[Matt]

Your only other way of getting sound out is to either play the standard DD/DTS (or 2CH PCM track) or downconvert to these formats.  Both TMT and PDVD should do this for you but the sound at this point is no better than a DVD...and if you are not using a large HD screen...there is no benefit of Blu-ray at all.  If you do have the right equipment it looks and sounds great.

Can anything down-convert to 5.1 AC3 / DTS instead of stereo AC3?  I've tried PDVD and TMT, and unless I'm missing something, they only output 2.0 from the HD audio streams.

Obviously this isn't as good as buying a new amp and video card, but it is a lot better than watching a movie without any surround sound at all.

Thanks.

[jmone]

Hi Matt - I'm away for a couple of weeks but otherwise I could confirm the necessary settings in TMTs Audio Config - but it should work - here is a quote from another post on the issue that pretty well sums it up....

There is no need to transcode TrueHD or DTS-MA to legacy formats.   TrueHD and DTS-MA are optional codecs on BD so a mandatory codec must be included. With TrueHD there is *always a legacy DD track (it may be hidden but it's there) and TMT, PowerDVD or what ever player (even STB) will auto select the DD for S/PDIF (even if you select the TrueHD track).  

DTS-MA has a legacy DTS core included and will be decoded and outputted if using S/PDIF.

*In theroy you can have a TrueHD track with no included DD track as long as a LPCM and/or DTS track(s) is included.

EDIT: Check your TMT settings (it uses its own Audio Renderer now that bypases the Win Mixer so you have to set you config in there to what you want).

[glynor]

Matt... I hadn't seen this thread before, but I should mention this....

$300-$400 - ATI 5xxx series video card for HDMI output with sound support (the computer is used for gaming so a slower card isn't really an option)

What resolution are you gaming at?  If you are playing on a 1080p home theater display, you do NOT need one of the high-end AMD 5870 cards.  They are completely overkill for resolutions like that.

A $170 Radeon 5770 will push pretty much any game you want at 1080p resolutions with the quality settings cranked and AA turned on at 4x at around 40fps.  Even the cheaper 5850 is overkill in a dramatic fashion, but if you want to make darn sure you won't have ANY stuttering ever even on Crysis, you could certainly go with one of those (or just get a second 5770 in a few months when they get cheaper).

[jmone]

Matt - I had a look in the ArcSoft TMT V3 Audio Settings - You can select SPDIF and then a mixing mode of either Original / DTS / DD - does this work for you?

[Matt]

Matt - I had a look in the ArcSoft TMT V3 Audio Settings - You can select SPDIF and then a mixing mode of either Original / DTS / DD - does this work for you?

Well, the trial of ArcSoft won't decode Dolby so I'm not sure.

PowerDVD outputs 2.0 (not surround sound) when you make the DD or DTS mixing selection.  I've never been able to get it to mix to 5.1 from the high definition formats.  Some Blu-rays contain 5.1 AC3, but if they don't, I'm stuck with stereo sound.

You almost have me talked into a 5xxx ATI, but I kind of want to wait for Fermi benchmarks before making that decision.

[Matt]

Matt... I hadn't seen this thread before, but I should mention this....

What resolution are you gaming at?  If you are playing on a 1080p home theater display, you do NOT need one of the high-end AMD 5870 cards.  They are completely overkill for resolutions like that.

A $170 Radeon 5770 will push pretty much any game you want at 1080p resolutions with the quality settings cranked and AA turned on at 4x at around 40fps.  Even the cheaper 5850 is overkill in a dramatic fashion, but if you want to make darn sure you won't have ANY stuttering ever even on Crysis, you could certainly go with one of those (or just get a second 5770 in a few months when they get cheaper).

I have a basment that's an office and theater (read man cave) and I use the same computer for both.  So it needs to be able to handle 1920x1200, which is just a little more than 1080p.

But I think you may be overstating the Crysis thing:
http://hardocp.com/article/2009/09/22/amds_ati_radeon_hd_5870_video_card_review/9

Even a 5870 can't really drive a 24" monitor with things turned up (like 8x AA).  It's possible Fermi will be able to, but I haven't seen a good answer as to whether it'll support the HD audio formats we're talking about in this thread.

[jmone]

Matt - I'm happy with the passive ATI HD-4550 for HTPC duties, it's cheap, silent and will pass decoded HD Audio as LPCM over HDMI to the receiver....but I'm not a gamer and the my reciever does not decode the latest HD codecs.  The later ATI 5XXX will also pass the Audio as a Bitstream but all the details of what it works with can be found here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1179134
 

[Matt]

Matt - I'm happy with the passive ATI HD-4550 for HTPC duties, it's cheap, silent and will pass decoded HD Audio as LPCM over HDMI to the receiver....but I'm not a gamer and the my reciever does not decode the latest HD codecs.  The later ATI 5XXX will also pass the Audio as a Bitstream but all the details of what it works with can be found here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1179134
 

In some ways I like this LPCM approach most because it lets the computer be the brains instead of the amplifier.

But I don't think it's possible to output multi-channel LPCM over the HDMI of an nVidia GTX 280 card, meaning I need a new video card anyway.

[jmone]

Nope - only:

GTX 280 and 260 can output the following audio formats over HDMI:

2-channel LPCM
6-channel DD bitstream
6-channel DTS bitstream

Unfortunately there's no support for 8-channel LPCM or bitstreaming of Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD-MA

[glynor]

But I think you may be overstating the Crysis thing:
http://hardocp.com/article/2009/09/22/amds_ati_radeon_hd_5870_video_card_review/9

Even a 5870 can't really drive a 24" monitor with things turned up (like 8x AA).  It's possible Fermi will be able to, but I haven't seen a good answer as to whether it'll support the HD audio formats we're talking about in this thread.

I really like Kyle (at HardOCP), and I actually like the way he reviews cards and game performance, but sometimes he doesn't take into account what the real-world benefit is or is not for settings that you enable.

The reason that NOTHING, other than dual-GPU setups which still struggle, can play Crysis with Enthusiast mode settings enabled is that it is broken and poorly coded.  The Enthusiast mode settings in Crysis isn't about improving quality, it is about punishing graphics cards.  Does it improve image quality over the Gamer setting?  Sure.  Does it improve it so dramatically that it is worth the performance cost?  No, not at all.  Other game engines seem to manage to push out even superior IQ and do it with dramatically better performance.  If you actually still play Crysis Warhead, set it to Gamer mode like everyone else and stop worrying.

Still, yes... If all you care about is running Crysis at 1900x1200 on Enthusiast settings you are certainly best going with a pair of 5870s (or a 5970 if you can find one).  For literally EVERYTHING ELSE, a single 5850 will do just fine at that resolution and you might be able to deal with a 5770.  (Also note, there have been driver improvements since those release-date reviews came out that have provided approximately 6-12% performance bump around the board for most games.)  We've also seen availability stabilize over the past month with the 40-nm TSMC parts, so prices should begin to fall back closer to the launch prices over the next month or so.

For Fermi.... Yes, it may well be a monster.  However, it is probably still some time out (late Feb/March launch is what I'm seeing widely rumored).  And, this doesn't bode well for performance per watt numbers: http://www.semiaccurate.com/2009/12/21/nvidia-castrates-fermi-448sps/

[fitbrit]

Perhaps this isn't the answer you're looking for,a s the discussion seems to have moved onto gaming:

The new ffdshow versions can decode TrueHD and DTS-HD formats. You can then decode to LPCM, strip to core AC3/DTS or Bitsream depending on your audio(video) card and connections. Currently, I am able to listen to mkvs with TrueHD sound in MC, their downconverted to AC3 and sent over spdif to my speakers on my desktop. Soon, with my newly purchased GeForce 240, I'll be using LPCM to my receiver. Eventually, when nvidia sorts out bitstreaming I'll upgrade again.
No fancy sound cards.
No proprietary software.
Just MC, hardware accelerated mkvs/m2ts files and lossless sound to come.

[Matt]

Perhaps this isn't the answer you're looking for,a s the discussion seems to have moved onto gaming:

The new ffdshow versions can decode TrueHD and DTS-HD formats. You can then decode to LPCM, strip to core AC3/DTS or Bitsream depending on your audio(video) card and connections. Currently, I am able to listen to mkvs with TrueHD sound in MC, their downconverted to AC3 and sent over spdif to my speakers on my desktop. Soon, with my newly purchased GeForce 240, I'll be using LPCM to my receiver. Eventually, when nvidia sorts out bitstreaming I'll upgrade again.
No fancy sound cards.
No proprietary software.
Just MC, hardware accelerated mkvs/m2ts files and lossless sound to come.

Thanks for the input.

So what's involved in putting in a Blu-ray movie (disc, not download) and playing it with the TrueHD output as AC3 over the SPDIF?

Should I be able to install AnyDVD-HD, then play files directly off the disc with Media Center using ffdshow as the decoders?  Last time I tried using ffdshow for video decoding, I couldn't get any hardware acceleration running.

Thanks again.

[glynor]

I'd be interested in this as well.  And...

Should I be able to install AnyDVD-HD, then play files directly off the disc with Media Center using ffdshow as the decoders?  Last time I tried using ffdshow for video decoding, I couldn't get any hardware acceleration running.

Me too, but I've heard that the new tryouts builds might support DXVA.  Is this true?  (I suppose I could look over at AVS or Doom9, and maybe I will tomorrow.)

[Matt]

Me too, but I've heard that the new tryouts builds might support DXVA.  Is this true?  (I suppose I could look over at AVS or Doom9, and maybe I will tomorrow.)

I just gave it a try.

Fullscreen playback of a 1080p Blu-ray uses about 10% of the CPU with a newish FFDShow on an i7.

I remember last time I tried it buried my Core Duo which is almost as fast per core.  So either it's using acceleration or it's multi-threaded enough to use more than one core.

So that removes the video obstacle.

Then the only question that remains is whether it will be able to consistently output the high-definition audio as AC3 over SPDIF.  I understand this won't sound quite as good as the HD formats.  I don't own many Blu-rays (I rent), so I can't test this very well right now.

[fitbrit]

Yes, the new FFDshow tryouts do support DXVA. However, I still use CUDA for h264 via CoreAVC. Don't forget that FFDSHOW has separate audio, video and subtitle filters. You can mix and match as you need. I don't know about using a disk, but for files you do the following:
(This works for me, but may not be the only way to do it)
Install a new ffdshow
You also have to install the Gabest splitter (MPC-HC's internal)
You also need MPC-HC audio renderer.

Make sure ffdshow has TrueHD etc. enabled.
You also have to enable the Dolby Encoder.

With SPDIF as your chosen output, the above should work. It's for special cases like this that every now and then, I implore MC to allow us to set filters on a per-file basis. We can still have defaults for each filetype, but also allow each file to have exceptions. It makes little sense when an mkv container can have tons of different format combos within it, to have a single default combo of filters for all mkvs. Tons of discussion on this here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=151151


For Bitstreaming using an ATI 5xxx series card:

Setup :
- Install FFDShow Tryout revision 3161 or greater, 32 or 64 bits
- On Vista : you will need the MPC audio renderer. It is very recent and in early stage but it is functional.
- On windows 7 : directsound renderer should work on most bistream formats. Otherwise use the waveout renderer or MPC renderer
- If you have a xonar : won't work with directsound renderer, the best is to use the the arcsoft renderer (on a dos window in administrator mode : regsvr32 (total media path)\codecs\asrenderer.dll). Otherwise try the waveout or MPC renderer (don't know if they will work)
- Player software :
1/MPC-HC : you will have to grab a very recent version of MPC-HC (revision 1413 or greater). If you don't have the right version the MPC mpeg splitter will break the DTS HD streams and the MPC renderer won't work
2/Other directshow players (WMP,...) : you will need MPC-HC *recent* standalone filters (revision 1413 or greater). Just register MPC audio renderer and MPC mpeg splitter. For MKV Haali media splitter should work too.

Now the only way I think it'll work with a disk is if you open the BluRay structure and navigate to the M2TS files. I found setup to be easier in MPC-HC than in MC, because MPC-HC has most of the filters required internally. So, rather than download all the standalone MPC-HC filters, you may just wish to change the filetype options in MC to launch MPC-HC when playing M2TS files. I didn't want to do this, so I continued to mess around until I got MC working with the tips in that massive thread.

[fitbrit]

Oh btw, this is a reason why I think universally recommending CCCP to all users will eventually not work any more. There are now too many formats out there that require more recent filters than the last version in CCCP - at least since the previous time I checked what CCCP was all about.

[jmone]

Then the only question that remains is whether it will be able to consistently output the high-definition audio as AC3 over SPDIF.

Stop mucking around with SPIDF and buy your new Reciever already!  FYI - FFDSHOW is able to decode the HD Audio (or it's "core" in the case of DTS-HD) and should downcovert your HD Audio as plain DD to pass over SPDIF.

[glynor]

Oh btw, this is a reason why I think universally recommending CCCP to all users will eventually not work any more. There are now too many formats out there that require more recent filters than the last version in CCCP - at least since the previous time I checked what CCCP was all about.

I still think that it is still a very good starting point.  If you want to upgrade to a newer version of FFDSHOW after installing it, that's fine.  Plus, there are always the betas of CCCP that do include the latest versions.  They do update the official public CCCP build usually twice a year.

The NICE thing about it for most users is that it both works and it is stable (meaning that it doesn't change all the time).  Remember: Most users do NOT want to tweak their systems endlessly, and get annoyed when they have to do updates (which often seem to do nothing for them other than make them re-learn the UI).  In other words... They're not us.

[fitbrit]

Stop mucking around with SPIDF and buy your new Reciever already!  FYI - FFDSHOW is able to decode the HD Audio (or it's "core" in the case of DTS-HD) and should downcovert your HD Audio as plain DD to pass over SPDIF.

I believe all the formats work now for bitstreaming, without having to go to the core.

[jmone]

I believe all the formats work now for bitstreaming, without having to go to the core.

I think that is also correct (but you need HDMI of course).  If you want to output over SPDIF, you first need to decode the HD Audio (which FFDSHOW can do for all with the expection of DTS-HD which will just be the core....not that it matters as you are then encoding as DD to output over SPDIF)

[fitbrit]

I think that is also correct (but you need HDMI of course).  If you want to output over SPDIF, you first need to decode the HD Audio (which FFDSHOW can do for all with the expection of DTS-HD which will just be the core....not that it matters as you are then encoding as DD to output over SPDIF)

Regular DTS (the core of all the lossless/high res. DTS formats) can be passed through SPDIF as well, so there's no need to encode it to DD/AC3... unless one's receiver is a stone-age no-DTS-having POS. Or am I not understanding what you're getting at?

[Daydream]

Let's round it up (assuming AnyDVD-HD present at all times):

- For a disc with a THD track there must be (by specs) a DD 5.1 track. So it's a matter a picking the right track, leave the lossless one alone. At this point any AC3 decoder will work over SPDIF, not necessarily ffdshow. The problem arises when the language is not the same, so you get an English THD track and a French and Spanish DD 5.1 tracks. Then you need to decode the English THD track, re-encode it on the fly to DD 5.1, then SPDIF. ffdshow will do this.

- For a disc with a DTS-MA track, any DTS decoder (again not necessarily ffdshow) will be able to pick up the DTS (lossy) core and feed it over SPDIF. Don't need to deal with the lossless part of the track.

Should one want the lossless audio (and I can't underline enough how much I agree with jmone to just get the new receiver and be done with it ), then ffdshow will bitstream both THD and DTS-MA tracks, with an ATI 5xxx card.

The big problem is when the movie is not in just one (big) .m2ts file, but split around in out-of-order smaller files. Since there is no free parser for the playlist on the Blu-Ray disc that knows what file is what, then we can't do anything about that, short of ripping the movie. Gotta love the industry.

[fitbrit]

Great summary, daydream! 

[JimH]

also see this thread:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=59254.msg400439#msg400439

[bigmun01]

Greetings:
This is my first post here: excuse me if the answer to my question is elsewhere, and I just can't find it.
My laptop plays BluRay Discs just fine, even though I have an Oppo BDP 83SE as my primary player, and my system outputs bluray in all respects quite well.
I would, however, like to rip 2-channel  sound from some of my br discs which are primarily  hi-res music with MC (which, by the way, is superb).
Is this do-able?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Steve

[jmone]

You would need to use eac3to that can both extract and if desired convert the Audio Tracks to a more common audio format (eg to FLAC, WAV etc).  Once done you can then manage and play back these tracks in MC.

[bigmun01]

Thank you. I will give that a try.
Steve