Topic: DLNA Questions and Answers (Read 80054 times)

JimH · « **on:** January 16, 2010, 09:42:04 am »

You may wonder why we've spent so much time on it lately, but it is likely that you will find it very useful in the next year or two. There are DLNA Instructions on our wiki.

Build 127 added two new features. Both are still in progress but working with many devices. They are:

1. A DLNA Controller -- Like a TV remote, it allows you to control other devices.

2. A DLNA Renderer -- MC can be a playback device for other devices.

Yes, MC can control another copy of MC now and play to it. You must turn the DLNA options on in Tools/Options/Settings/DLNA.

More definitions are below (from the old thread)...

We have renamed the UPnP Server as "DLNA / UPnP Server". It's a mouthful. We will probably drop UPnP from the name later.

There are two threads listing DLNA devices known to work on the Other Hardware board:

DLNA Boxes

DLNA TV's

You may be asking yourself, "Why is this important? Why all the fuss about DLNA?" Good question. The answer is that it provides a standard way to move media and control its playback among devices in a home.

Protocols like TCP/IP, HTML, and HTTP are the foundation of the Internet. DLNA is becoming another important standard.

It is very much like UPnP, but it adds some new features and more importantly, hardware vendors have adopted it.

Terminology
1. DMS -- Digital Media Server -- where the media resides

2. DMP -- Digital Media Player -- where the media is played

3. DMR -- Digital Media Renderer -- where media is played, but with ability to respond to a controller

4. DMC -- Digital Media Controller -- software control of the renderer -- functions as a remote

DLNA Instructions on our wiki.

gottwavo · « **Reply #1 on:** January 16, 2010, 03:31:36 pm »

I tried build 127 ... same behaviour ...
Can you explain how to create the logs from wireshak?

JimH · « **Reply #2 on:** January 16, 2010, 03:33:56 pm »

http://wiki.jrmediacenter.com/index.php/Sharing_Plug-in_Debugging_Hints

gottwavo · « **Reply #3 on:** January 17, 2010, 08:29:10 am »

Find the wireshark file here:
http://www.80fotos.de/pdf/wireshark_capture_2010-01-17.zip

I hope it helps to solve the issue.

JimH · « **Reply #4 on:** January 17, 2010, 09:07:19 am »

Thank you.

gottwavo · « **Reply #5 on:** January 18, 2010, 02:22:08 am »

One more observation:
- When I used build 121 to connect Panasonic and MC14 via DLNA I could see the file system of my PC/Server and browse the files there instead of using the categories given from MC14. This option is not available in build 127. It would be good to have it back, since not all the video files are tagged.

There is one other little problem, that might be a Panasonic Software issue or could be a MC14 issue:
- When Panasonic and MC14 are connected and accessing the files from the Panasonic device you can see the list of files and the number of files and the window has a scrollbar. You see something like 10 or 15 files on the screen, when you scroll down, srolling works for the five or ten files and the you only see an empty window - no mor efiles listed, no more scrolling.

Can you look into this problem?

Thanks. It would be great if you can make this connection working ...

MrHaugen · « **Reply #6 on:** January 18, 2010, 08:24:35 am »

This DLNA suddenly got a lot more interesting

I'll try to test it as soon as possible. Seems like you've done much work in this area.

I just don't hope that this standard will prevent you from adding functionality that only might only works between MC client and server though. Like adding user or group access to the server part, and to be able to retrieve settings, view schemes and such from the server based on this user/group.

cncb · « **Reply #7 on:** January 18, 2010, 10:32:44 am »

Quote from: JimH on January 18, 2010, 07:58:15 am

Yes. Start here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=55670.0

I read that and don't understand how this is supposed to take over library server. I also tried the newest build and don't see how to connect to an "MC DLNA server" with an "MC DLNA client". Could you please explain this more? Thanks.

JimH · « **Reply #8 on:** January 18, 2010, 10:42:27 am »

In build 127, MC has a DLNA renderer and controller, in addition to the previously existing DLNA Server (formerly known as the UPnP Server).

The controller can play media from the DLNA server to another copy of MC.

New DLNA Instructions

JimH · « **Reply #9 on:** January 18, 2010, 10:43:41 am »

Quote from: cncb on January 18, 2010, 10:32:44 am

I read that and don't understand how this is supposed to take over library server. I also tried the newest build and don't see how to connect to an "MC DLNA server" with an "MC DLNA client". Could you please explain this more? Thanks.

Sorry. I just added new DLNA Instructions. Please let me know of any confusing points or any mistakes.

cncb · « **Reply #10 on:** January 18, 2010, 10:53:17 am »

Quote from: JimH on January 18, 2010, 10:43:41 am

Sorry. I just added new DLNA Instructions. Please let me know of any confusing points or any mistakes.

I still don't see how to browse the library from an MC DLNA client or am I not understanding this properly?

JimH · « **Reply #11 on:** January 18, 2010, 10:59:51 am »

Quote from: cncb on January 18, 2010, 10:53:17 am

I still don't see how to browse the library from an MC DLNA client or am I not understanding this properly?

DLNA doesn't completely replace Library Server. Library Server has more functionality. But for a simple use, DLNA may be better. The current implementation is just running, so its features will grow.

The terminology is an obstacle. But let's say you have two machines:

A is your main copy of MC. Here you have a DLNA Server running and you want to use a DLNA Controller to play music on

B which is running the DLNA Renderer.

On machine A, you should see B under Playing Now. Drag any file to it. (Technical details ... When you drag the file there, the controller tells the renderer what to play. The renderer requests the file from the server.)

It isn't as hard as it sounds.

JimH · « **Reply #12 on:** January 18, 2010, 11:04:55 am »

One advantage of using DLNA is that it works with other software and hardware. Bob found that Plugplayer, for example, will let you use an iPod Touch as a remote control for MC. It's a DLNA Controller.

glynor · « **Reply #13 on:** January 18, 2010, 02:58:39 pm »

I, for one, have absolutely zero interest in DLNA. I have no intention of buying any consumer electronics devices that aren't going to be plugged into a general-purpose PC, and they're all going to access their media via the network. I think Matt is on the right track here. I have absolutely ZERO faith in the ability of Samsung, Sony, LG, or Pioneer to build a good User Interface.

Why spend extra on a special purpose box (or fancy TV) and get a crappy and non-expandable UI as your reward?!? I'd rather spend $250 on a little computer, which will do a MUCH better job, and will provide the same UI no matter where I am or what equipment happens to be hooked up on the back-end.

JimH · « **Reply #14 on:** January 18, 2010, 03:34:33 pm »

These devices are available at around $100 now and will be going down in price.

They don't do what a PC will do, but they do solve a simple problem neatly.

gottwavo · « **Reply #15 on:** January 18, 2010, 04:49:56 pm »

I just played with my Amplifier/Receiver Yamaha RX-V3900 and it should be DLNA certified. From what I am reading it looks like you currently need Windows Media Player installed to acces the music on a PC/Server. I had this working a while ago, but did not like the interface and Media Player installed on top of MC.
Is there any knowledge out there if this could/would work with MC14 and it's new features. When I currently try to connect I see "nothing connected" or so.
I am living in Germany and my RX-V3900 is a Europe build, not the US model and there may be differences.
Thanks for some insights and help.

gottwavo · « **Reply #16 on:** January 18, 2010, 05:27:36 pm »

While experimenting I installed twonky media server and I can connect with my RX-V3900 to this server and play my music.
The user interface ist not nice and I can't get my playlist and more ...
So in priciple this seems to work. MC 14 obviously does not know anthing about the Yamaha box.
So: Can you "just" add it to you list of DLNA boxes and make it work. Yes you can ...

JimH · « **Reply #17 on:** January 18, 2010, 05:35:03 pm »

This should work in a build or two.

gottwavo · « **Reply #18 on:** January 18, 2010, 05:37:20 pm »

Great!
Can't wait.

And thanks for the speedy replies and excellent support. I would pay you a beer or two if you where around ...

JimH · « **Reply #19 on:** January 18, 2010, 05:39:56 pm »

Thanks!

bunglemebaby · « **Reply #20 on:** January 18, 2010, 06:48:16 pm »

Quote

Why spend extra on a special purpose box (or fancy TV) and get a crappy and non-expandable UI as your reward?!? I'd rather spend $250 on a little computer, which will do a MUCH better job, and will provide the same UI no matter where I am or what equipment happens to be hooked up on the back-end.

I think I saw somebody else post this idea too, but this is why a $100 box with a JRiver GUI on it would be splendid and, for me a more useful purchase than a Synapse. This could prove especially useful, since this box could still hook into other vendors' DLNA servers, and wow new users into the JR world

.
(Is it theoretically possible to send all of JR database data via the DLNA standard?)

-JB

JimH · « **Reply #21 on:** January 18, 2010, 06:59:08 pm »

Quote from: bunglemebaby on January 18, 2010, 06:48:16 pm

Is it theoretically possible to send all of JR database data via the DLNA standard?

Yes and no. A DLNA server will see the files in MC's library, subject to format limitations. You can specify by device what the overall layout will be on the device, but the details of how it is presented are up to the device.

benn600 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 18, 2010, 07:00:21 pm »

I don't think a DLNA box with the MC front end is even possible without some of what I'm suggesting. With what I'm asking for, a new device could be added to your MC Network Picture with a network address and authentication if desired. All policies would be strictly enforced on client boxes. View schemes, database content (music, images, etc.) would be FORCED upon client machines. Instant updates of all db items, settings, view schemes, etc. Every last piece controlled strictly by the server.

I, too, have completely and fully given up on set-top boxes and systems with built in media playback. They are garbage as far as I'm concerned. I've thrown way too much time and money away on boxes that really only caused me headaches. Some of the new ones might be closer but even if I found the perfect box, the moment the company stops caring about it because they released a new box I'm done!

That's the big problem with these boxes...they release them with software upgrades (Great!) but before you know it, time is up and they've moved on to another box. They need to put a ton of effort into ONE box instead of releasing new boxes all the time hoping to sell more.

I think a surprising number of people using MC are not here for cost savings in any way. Anyone who wants good, high quality content with powerful playback systems is definitely not going the easy, cheap way.

Why can't we find a way to funnel more of this SPENDING back to JRiver?! A high end server-client package sold at typical audio/video dealers cost hundreds or thousands of dollars. I'm not sure about other people but those with the most complicated setups would, I believe, certainly be willing to pay a lot on this type of extension to Media Center.

Vocalpoint · « **Reply #23 on:** January 18, 2010, 10:13:09 pm »

Howdy,

Scuse the nube-ness - but can anyone explain the DLNA concept and why it matters in MC? I have a WDTV Live (and will be getting another) and it took me about 8 seconds to connect to the network and play everything on my network with no issues...via this little box.

How does MC play into this and what's the advantage...if any?

Cheers!

VP

kamiller42 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 19, 2010, 12:34:42 am »

WDTV Live is a client. MC has a DLNA server. Each serves a different purpose. MC serves media. WDTV Live allows you to see and hear it. WDTV Live is a DLNA client, but not the only one on the market. There is the PS3 and the 360 and many others. MC supporting DLNA enables it to serve all the media cataloged in your MC database to DLNA clients on your network.

JimH · « **Reply #25 on:** January 19, 2010, 07:03:03 am »

With MC and WD TV Live, you'll see your media organized the way you have it in MC.

Get the latest build from the top of this board to try it. We're still fine tuning.

Vocalpoint · « **Reply #26 on:** January 19, 2010, 09:35:57 am »

Quote from: JimH on January 19, 2010, 07:03:03 am

With MC and WD TV Live, you'll see your media organized the way you have it in MC.

Get the latest build from the top of this board to try it. We're still fine tuning.

Thanks! I will give it a whirl.

Cheers!

VP

rjm · « **Reply #27 on:** January 19, 2010, 10:05:30 am »

Quote from: JimH on January 19, 2010, 07:03:03 am

With MC and WD TV Live, you'll see your media organized the way you have it in MC.

ahhh.... now I'm starting to understand and am getting interested.
Anyone care to save me some research time and tell me if WDLive is the best choice for WDLive'ish features?

Vocalpoint · « **Reply #28 on:** January 19, 2010, 10:28:12 am »

While Jim's reply made sense - I still do not see the need for it.

Sounds to me like I need to have a copy of MC running somewhere for this to matter. Over here - no PC stores anything locally - all media is centrally stored on a WHS so we can hit it with any of the 4 PC's and (soon to be) 2 WDTV live boxes at anytime - with no hassles, strings or anything.

While I love to use MC on the PC when I am sitting at it...why would I care to have the WDTV live box "see" the media the way MC has it organized....when I can click Music on the WDTV interface and all the tunes that are on my WHS?

Unless the MC DLNA really speeds up the user experience and makes searching etc more efficient on the WDTV live - then I may interested...and if MC could run on my WHS as a quiet, "do not have to be logged on at the server at all time", DLNA service - then I would be really interested....but I do not think that is possible....

JimH · « **Reply #29 on:** January 19, 2010, 10:35:15 am »

Quote from: Vocalpoint on January 19, 2010, 10:28:12 am

Sounds to me like I need to have a copy of MC running somewhere for this to matter.

You need to start the DLNA / UPnP Server under Services. If you have Media Server running, you can exit MC and the DLNA server will still run.

Vocalpoint · « **Reply #30 on:** January 19, 2010, 10:45:12 am »

Quote from: JimH on January 19, 2010, 10:35:15 am

You need to start the DLNA / UPnP Server under Services. If you have Media Server running, you can exit MC and the DLNA server will still run.

So do I:

1. Install a full copy MC on my WHS
2. Construct a library with music, picture and vids from the WHS shares
3. Start the DLNA server service - which I presume - starts Media Server? (Never quite understood this)
4. Exit MC
5. Log off the server - this is the most importnat one as it always killed MC acting as say - a library server
6. Use another instance of MC or the WDTV Live (via DLNA) and enjoy my stuff?
7. Yes?
8. No?

Appreciate any comments on any of the steps - especially #5 - which - at least trying to act as a Library Server ruins any kind of MC usage in a server environment.

Cheers!

VP

JimH · « **Reply #31 on:** January 19, 2010, 10:46:45 am »

You could find more info there, and on our DLNA wiki page where there are some instructions.

Make sure you're using the latest build from the top of this board.

JimH · « **Reply #32 on:** January 19, 2010, 10:53:18 am »

Quote from: Vocalpoint on January 19, 2010, 10:45:12 am

1. Install a full copy MC on my WHS

I think you could just import the files from the WHS. You wouldn't need to install MC on it.

Quote

3. Start the DLNA server service - which I presume - starts Media Server? (Never quite understood this)

Please read the wiki article on "Servers".

Alex B · « **Reply #33 on:** January 19, 2010, 01:07:06 pm »

MC to MC doesn't work for me. Nothing appears to Playing Now.

I can see a new "received request for device description" appearing in the plugin window about once in a minute, but that's all. I don't even know where it is coming from. I don't have any HW UPnP devices.

Does it work for anyone else? Can an MC instance browse a file list that comes from a remote MC server and the play it on any MC renderer?

Would it be possible to see screenshots of the "MC to MC" interface?

What additional services and connections are actually needed for UPnP? I have allowed free access between our PCs, but otherwise the SW firewall settings on each PC are quite restricted because I don't use a NAT box anymore. The router is situated somewhere between our apartment house and the public Internet and I don't have access to it. The IP addresses are public and the "local" network is bigger than the usual 254 possible hosts (the subnet mask is 255.255.252.0 instead of the usual 255.255.255.0). I am wondering if something that is needed is missing.

"SW" UPnP used to work when I had NAT and I made some experiments with the free Intel demo programs, but that was years ago.

JimH · « **Reply #34 on:** January 19, 2010, 01:17:55 pm »

Double check that you have turned on the DLNA options.

http://wiki.jrmediacenter.com/index.php/DLNA

Vocalpoint · « **Reply #35 on:** January 19, 2010, 01:22:44 pm »

Quote from: JimH on January 19, 2010, 10:53:18 am

Please read the wiki article on "Servers".

I have...and until this piece is correctly annotated to include DLNA with up to date info - it's useless to me.

Besides - Media Server will not stay running - even tho this article says it will - when one logs off of a server based (WHS) OS. Having to leave MC running on the server is simply not an option.

Alex B · « **Reply #36 on:** January 19, 2010, 01:54:00 pm »

Quote from: JimH on January 19, 2010, 01:17:55 pm

Double check that you have turned on the DLNA options.

http://wiki.jrmediacenter.com/index.php/DLNA

Quote

Setup Instructions

In build 127, MC has a DLNA renderer and controller, in addition to the previously existing DLNA Server (formerly known as the UPnP Server).

The controller can play media from the DLNA server to another copy of MC.

To set it up

1. In MC's Tools/Options/DLNA, turn on the functions you need in each copy of MC. Normally, this would be the controller and server on the machine you're playing from, and the renderer on the machine you're playing to.

2. Start the copy of MC that is running the renderer.

3. Start the copy that is running the controller and server. In a minute or two, it will show any renderers it finds under Playing Now. Click on the one you want. Then drag a file to it. This should play on the remote device.

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=55670.msg378481#msg378481

I did all steps before posting.

BTW, the link on the wiki page doesn't work (anymore?). Maybe it was intended to point here and this tread was moved.

cncb · « **Reply #37 on:** January 19, 2010, 02:22:10 pm »

Quote from: Alex B on January 19, 2010, 01:07:06 pm

Does it work for anyone else? Can an MC instance browse a file list that comes from a remote MC server and the play it on any MC renderer?

I am not able to get this to work yet either. However, Library Server still sounds like it will be the best option in this scenario.

JimH · « **Reply #38 on:** January 19, 2010, 03:47:49 pm »

We found a problem on XP that would keep MC from finding renderers. Next build.

shawnholt · « **Reply #39 on:** January 21, 2010, 03:36:25 pm »

I'm very excited to use DLNA. I have a samsung TV and other devices. want to use as server and controller. using defaults on Win 7 with no firewall, i get an error "Failed to Start Generic DLNA" in the console. not much useful info. using 14.0.130. bummer. Tried with a new library too.

----- Just found out the problem --- port number 2869 is reserved by Microsoft for UPNP. I tried changing to 1900 and connects BUT - my samsung TV won't play anything at all

. Also takes a long time to load.

shawnholt · « **Reply #40 on:** January 21, 2010, 04:34:56 pm »

I can't see my Samsung series 7 TV from MC, nor can i see Windows 7 set up to stream ...

bob · « **Reply #41 on:** January 21, 2010, 04:49:29 pm »

Quote from: shawnholt on January 21, 2010, 04:34:56 pm

I can't see my Samsung series 7 TV from MC, nor can i see Windows 7 set up to stream ...

There are a lot of changes related to machine interfaces and ports in use coming in the next build.

JimH · « **Reply #42 on:** January 22, 2010, 09:14:21 am »

Our DLNA server and renderer work with the DLNA / UPnP controller available for Android from www.andromote.de. Thanks, Mirko.

RemyJ · « **Reply #43 on:** January 22, 2010, 12:50:44 pm »

I've been playing with build 130 and the DLNA server/controller/renderer functions and have got a few observations... Not sure if they are bugs or not.

On the Renderer... (MC build 130 on Vista 64)
The renderer doesn't automatically advance to the next track in the controller's Playing Now.
No info for the currently playing track shows up except the Name which shows as "F18400" or something similar.
Stop/Pause/Play/FF/REW work but Next/Prev simply restart the current track.
Only the currently playing track shows up in Playing Now.

On the Controller/Server (MC build 130 on XP)
Stop/Play/Next/Prev work but Pause/FF/REW do nothing.
The track position slider continually advances a little bit from the beginning then resets, even if there's nothing playing.

JimH · « **Reply #44 on:** January 22, 2010, 02:14:05 pm »

Quote from: RemyJ on January 22, 2010, 12:50:44 pm

I've been playing with build 130 and the DLNA server/controller/renderer functions and have got a few observations... Not sure if they are bugs or not.

On the Renderer... (MC build 130 on Vista 64)
The renderer doesn't automatically advance to the next track in the controller's Playing Now.

Hi Remy. You're on a two year cycle now. I saw the same problem. Matt thinks that turning "repeat" off on the renderer might work until we can get a better fix.

Quote

No info for the currently playing track shows up except the Name which shows as "F18400" or something similar.

Known problem. Others exist.

RemyJ · « **Reply #45 on:** January 22, 2010, 03:37:42 pm »

Quote from: JimH on January 22, 2010, 02:14:05 pm

Hi Remy. You're on a two year cycle now. I saw the same problem. Matt thinks that turning "repeat" off on the renderer might work until we can get a better fix.Known problem. Others exist.

The 2 year cycle is a testament to how well MC has been working for me. DLNA is something new to play with.

giamma · « **Reply #46 on:** January 22, 2010, 05:02:53 pm »

I am using the DLNA server, connecting with my Onkyo receiver HT180.

Everything works great.

I love the new DLNA support, super customizable.

2 things are not working:
1) I cannot see the artist displayed (on the TV connected to the Onkyo)
Note that when I connect the Onkyo to a Twonky media server I can
see the artist just fine, so it seems a problem with the MC14 DLNA server.

2) Search feature is not supported. Would be nice to be able to search
by artist name or something like that.
Twonky media server supports it.

I would like to use only the MC14 DLNA server so I can get all my smartlists
and also because I can add extra categories to browse the music collection

thanks

Matt · « **Reply #47 on:** January 22, 2010, 05:44:24 pm »

Quote from: giamma on January 22, 2010, 05:02:53 pm

I am using the DLNA server, connecting with my Onkyo receiver HT180.

Everything works great.

I love the new DLNA support, super customizable.

2 things are not working:
1) I cannot see the artist displayed (on the TV connected to the Onkyo)
Note that when I connect the Onkyo to a Twonky media server I can
see the artist just fine, so it seems a problem with the MC14 DLNA server.

2) Search feature is not supported. Would be nice to be able to search
by artist name or something like that.
Twonky media server supports it.

I would like to use only the MC14 DLNA server so I can get all my smartlists
and also because I can add extra categories to browse the music collection

thanks

Make sure you have build 131. Search is supported with recent builds, but perhaps the Onkyo is doing new types of searches we haven't seen before?

glynor · « **Reply #48 on:** January 22, 2010, 06:01:16 pm »

I have two related basic-level questions:

Is there a simple explanation of when it would be best to use the old Tremote functions and when it would be best to use the DLNA functions to control one instance of MC with another (classic Tremote style)? If all of my media is on a central server, accessible to all clients, and I don't have any fixed-function DLNA "devices" (TVs and STBs and whatnot), is there a benefit to this for me?

Second... Are there any DLNA applications for OSX? Would this allow me to control a remote Mac with MC, and play files from my MC media library "to" my Mac?

glynor · « **Reply #49 on:** January 22, 2010, 06:15:43 pm »

PS. I said I wasn't interested before. I've decided that I was wrong. This is very interesting.

I am building a new PC for a good friend this weekend. They're also building a new house and just bought a nice, shiny new Samsung LCD TV that does, I believe, support DLNA in some fashion (and has an ethernet port).

The possibility of running a copy of MC on their new PC with their full media library, and "playing to" their TV (or maybe a to a new receiver once I tell my friend it would be possible) is very interesting! Even better, I show up in their house with my laptop, connect to their wireless network, and then fire up my copy of MC and connect to their media library in order to play-to the TV from the couch. Very cool.

The idea of using a crappy Samsung-designed UI to pick and choose media out of my remote MC library never seemed appealing, but the idea of using MC as an interface to other "dumb" devices that you might have spread around is an entirely different thing!

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: DLNA Questions and Answers (Read 80054 times)