Topic: Imaginary Device [JRiver Id is now shipping] (Read 40058 times)

JimH · « **on:** January 29, 2010, 06:29:48 pm »

Edit June 15, 2014 -- A new Id is shipping now.
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--- Old information follows ---

We've been working with Ubicom, a fabless semiconductor manufacturer recently. They supply CE manufacturers with components for network and media devices.

Tonight we finally got DLNA working for them. I said I thought we might be able to sell some of the devices.

Here's The Plan:

A small device that plugs into a power outlet. Not much bigger than an AC/DC transformer. It has audio out jacks, maybe RCA, maybe 1/8" stereo. It shows up in MC under Playing Now as a device you can drop media on. It doesn't do video.

The price would be under $100. Maybe significantly under.

~~We're in the early stages of producing these now.~~

We received our first shipment today. (January 4, 2011).

--- Obsolete information follows ---

Please see our wiki for details and how to order.

JRiver Id Instructions

leezer3 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 29, 2010, 07:12:50 pm »

I'd have thought you'd need a 3.5mm stereo if this was going to work.
Wireless would also be pretty essential.

Strikes me as a little limited though. I would want a complete device which allows me to browse the library, skip etc. etc, which as far as I can see this doesn't

(Current devices for this are actually original Xboxes using XBMC, with some hardware mods)

-Leezer-

datdude · « **Reply #2 on:** January 29, 2010, 07:16:10 pm »

Sounds intriguing. So what would it actually do?

JimH · « **Reply #3 on:** January 29, 2010, 07:17:39 pm »

Play your music to a receiver anywhere in your home.

jmone · « **Reply #4 on:** January 29, 2010, 09:59:22 pm »

I was tempted to buy an Airport Express once for this exact feature....When paired with something like this - you don't even need the reciever (would make Matt happy!)

fitbrit · « **Reply #5 on:** January 29, 2010, 10:39:56 pm »

Yes yes yes! Especially if the MC could be controlled via an iPhone or other device, so that one could access the library and have playback in the kitchen without needing a full PC/laptop. I'd buy 3 for sure.

wombat66 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 30, 2010, 02:16:30 am »

I would want, initially, three of those devices with a potential for four more. But here's the catch, I would need to synchronize the audio across all (or some) of the devices. Might this be possible?

park · « **Reply #7 on:** January 30, 2010, 03:03:49 am »

I'd buy it if I could control it from my iphone or web browser.

The big hole in MC's "ecosystem" is the web browser client version of MC. Some guys on the plugins board have done a commendable job, but for people like me who have their library served from a WHS in the closet (with no sound card in it), there's no way to play my music on a mac without booting into windows. We need at least one platform neutral way to browse our MC library and act as a remote control for the kind of device you suggested.

JimH · « **Reply #8 on:** January 30, 2010, 07:33:52 am »

Quote from: fitbrit on January 29, 2010, 10:39:56 pm

Yes yes yes! Especially if the MC could be controlled via an iPhone or other device, so that one could access the library and have playback in the kitchen without needing a full PC/laptop. I'd buy 3 for sure.

It's DLNA, so it could be controlled by any DLNA controller. MC on another machine, for example, or Plugplayer on a Touch.

JimH · « **Reply #9 on:** January 30, 2010, 07:34:59 am »

Quote from: wombat66 on January 30, 2010, 02:16:30 am

I would want, initially, three of those devices with a potential for four more. But here's the catch, I would need to synchonize the audio across all (or some) of the devices. Might this be possible?

Maybe. Synchronization across a network has latency issues, but maybe.

JimH · « **Reply #10 on:** January 30, 2010, 07:47:20 am »

Quote from: leezer3 on January 29, 2010, 07:12:50 pm

I'd have thought you'd need a 3.5mm stereo if this was going to work.

1/8" and 3.5mm are the same. Mini-stereo is another name for the jack.

cncb · « **Reply #11 on:** January 30, 2010, 07:59:48 am »

Quote from: JimH on January 29, 2010, 06:29:48 pm

It has audio out jacks, maybe RCA, maybe 1/8" stereo.

How about digital (s/pdif) output?

glynor · « **Reply #12 on:** January 30, 2010, 08:43:12 pm »

Jim, would it be WiFi or wired Ethernet? If it works well, I'd buy one. If there was a WiFi version (maybe for extra money) I'd probably buy two.

glynor · « **Reply #13 on:** January 30, 2010, 08:55:40 pm »

If it was WiFi and could be battery operated (but also able to be plugged in, of course), that would be even more fantastic. Then you could combine it with one of these (using the aux-input) and you'd have a small wireless boombox that you could take anywhere you want within your wireless network and have music provided by MC. Freaking awesome.

Of course, a DLNA Rendering app for my iPhone would probably accomplish the same thing...

struct · « **Reply #14 on:** January 30, 2010, 09:09:07 pm »

Would have to have SPDIF out as minimum. Would also preferably have USB out so I could use my own USB Dac on other system. If you made it with a good DAC I am sure you would pick up users outside MC in the audiophile universe.

Wireless would be (strongly) preferred.

240V version?

Craig

tombert · « **Reply #15 on:** January 31, 2010, 03:41:48 am »

Instead of WiFi I would prefer this LAN which goes over the house-power lines ...
Would it be possible to split the 5.1 channels into different devices?
tom

Vincent Kars · « **Reply #16 on:** January 31, 2010, 04:38:32 am »

I like the concept.
A bit like running Squeezeserver on a Marvell SheevaPlug.
Being DLNA, it will have the big advantage over Squeeze that it will be compatible with a growing number of devices as DLNA is really getting momentum.

My worry is the sound quality.
I don’t expect a sub 100 device to have a top quality DAC and/or pristine SPDIF out.
Adding a USB port and combine it with a top quality USB DAC might solve this problem.

cncb · « **Reply #17 on:** January 31, 2010, 08:09:07 am »

Quote from: glynor on January 30, 2010, 08:55:40 pm

Of course, a DLNA Rendering app for my iPhone would probably accomplish the same thing...

Don't you need something like this for control anyways even with this new device?

fitbrit · « **Reply #18 on:** January 31, 2010, 01:21:57 pm »

Sounds to me that it incorporates networking over power lines. Would you say that's correct, Jim?

glynor · « **Reply #19 on:** January 31, 2010, 05:13:03 pm »

Quote from: fitbrit on January 31, 2010, 01:21:57 pm

Sounds to me that it incorporates networking over power lines. Would you say that's correct, Jim?

Hrm.... 802.11n, if well implemented, will generally meet or exceed the real-world performance available via home Power Line networking systems. Plus, we would then have to buy a second power line adapter and plug it into our existing switch (assuming that you don't already have a power line network at home, and frankly, they're really not that popular).

Besides, if I were going to use a device like this, I'd be interested in using it in places where home power-line networking wouldn't work well (out in my garage and other places outside).

park · « **Reply #20 on:** January 31, 2010, 08:50:41 pm »

Quote from: JimH on January 30, 2010, 07:33:52 am

It's DLNA, so it could be controlled by any DLNA controller. MC on another machine, for example, or Plugplayer on a Touch.

Just looked up PlugPlayer. Looks good. Does it allow you to browse your custom created MC viewschemes though? If so, this and your little plugin doobie are perfect. I'd buy one right now if it were available. I've been wanting some way to listen to music on my dining room speakers without needing to have a windows computer turned on for ages.

666JackTheKnife666 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 01, 2010, 12:25:24 am »

YES YES YES
A battery powered headphone amp with Wifi that MC will play directly to ....
what a fantastic idea. Sign me up for 2 of them!!! Would buy yesterday!!

JimH · « **Reply #22 on:** February 01, 2010, 04:10:28 pm »

Thanks for the feedback. I didn't answer some of the questions because I wanted to see what everyone thought first.

Analog 1/8 inch jack or SP/DIF out.

Wireless 802.11n connection to the LAN.

Approximately 3" x 3" x 1".

rpalmer68 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 01, 2010, 04:18:09 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 01, 2010, 04:10:28 pm

Thanks for the feedback. I didn't answer some of the questions because I wanted to see what everyone thought first.

Analog 1/8 inch jack or SP/DIF out.

Wireless 802.11n connection to the LAN.

Approximately 3" x 3" x 1".

110V - 240V ?

JimH · « **Reply #24 on:** February 01, 2010, 10:21:36 pm »

Voltage not certain yet. We might start in the U.S. and work our way to Australia.

The company is Ubicom. They're a fabless chip maker. They've been great to work with.

fitbrit · « **Reply #25 on:** February 02, 2010, 12:42:21 am »

Thanks for the answers, Jim. Sounds good. For some of the smaller rooms in the house, I'd pair it with the Apple HiFi or powered computer speakers.

glynor · « **Reply #26 on:** February 02, 2010, 09:10:45 am »

Wow. This thing is gonna be cool. A little box of win. Good work.

datdude · « **Reply #27 on:** February 02, 2010, 09:20:17 pm »

Yeah, I'll buy one right now based on those specs and compatiblity with MC.

wombat66 · « **Reply #28 on:** February 02, 2010, 10:50:23 pm »

Quote from: JimH on January 30, 2010, 07:34:59 am

Maybe. Synchronization across a network has latency issues, but maybe.

I do like the sound of "maybe", it's definitely better than a "no".

It does sound like member MuchAdhesion has a solution:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=50760.msg346829#msg346829
Check out the third post down.

Squeezebox can do it too (well, to a certain extent).

However, my guess is that the above methods are outside the scope of DLNA and a standalone device.

But I can still hope.

newsposter · « **Reply #29 on:** February 03, 2010, 12:34:53 am »

I am of the KISS school. Cheap enough and just 'good enough' will sell a higher number than a kitchen-sink device.

Look at the used (ebay) prices for the original Roku M500/1000/2000 devices. Even years after production ended and in the absence of firmware update support these are **still** selling for a high percentage of original MSRP.

Ubicom could do worse than cook up a single-chip implementation/emulation of an M1000 updated with modern networking.

Or, two boxes. The 'base' box is the wall-wart, DLNA, audio, powerline network, web config/control interface, maybe an LED status light or three, etc, etc. The expansion box carries the SPDIF/7.1, wired and wireless network, IR remote/Girder passthrough back to the MC server, interface for a nice fancy informative VFD display (like the Roku M2000), etc.

The base box plugs into the wall. The expansion box connects to the base box via USB or something simple like that. USB 3 might be needed not for the interconnect speed but for the additional current (1 amp) that it can deliver over USB 2.

Another way to do this would be to put a few USB ports on the base box. Then a user could add their own wireless dongle, a sound dongle for SPDIF (like the Turtle Beach products) or a dongle for wired networking.

For design hints look at how Addonics has their disk array products carved out. Lots of config options there.

raldo · « **Reply #30 on:** February 03, 2010, 06:52:03 am »

I agree with struct's statement that spdif would be a minimum.

Quote from: Vincent Kars on January 31, 2010, 04:38:32 am

I don’t expect a sub 100 device to have a top quality DAC and/or pristine SPDIF out.

For a <$100 device I agree with you on the top quality dac part but spdif shouldn't be a problem at all.

JimH · « **Reply #31 on:** March 16, 2010, 11:19:30 am »

We received a sample. It works well. It is analog only. Left and right RCA jacks.

We expect to sell the first shipment for $79.98 each. We expect delivery in ~~May~~ June.

Here's the real device:

Another picture here:
http://pix01.com/Vj@0GPo

jmone · « **Reply #32 on:** March 16, 2010, 11:29:05 pm »

So if I interpret the pics correctly it looks you you have:
- Stereo Analog Output via RCA
- Ethernet & Wireless? network connection
- Plug Pack for the adapter (12V / 5V???) so easy to adapt to all countries

Looks like with the addition of a Web Based Control point you have a competitor to Apple's Airport....(with one negative, Apple stuff always looks great, this one is a bit fugly - I hope the casing is a prototype!)

pillshovel · « **Reply #33 on:** March 16, 2010, 11:59:48 pm »

I have 4 Airport Express units and am currently using Airfoil with MC14 to send music all over the house. If there is any possibility of a future unit with SPDIF, I would replace all of them with these.

park · « **Reply #34 on:** March 17, 2010, 12:06:18 am »

I agree with the ugliness point, but I'll still buy one if it will work in Japan.

wombat66 · « **Reply #35 on:** March 17, 2010, 01:44:16 am »

This is quite a bit larger than "Not much bigger than an AC/DC transformer". I'm still interested though. When will these be available?

ThoBar · « **Reply #36 on:** March 17, 2010, 03:38:46 am »

Where can I get the mug, or does it come with the device?

666JackTheKnife666 · « **Reply #37 on:** March 17, 2010, 05:01:33 am »

Any chance you could take it apart so I can see the size of the actual board.

I plan on sticking it (the board) in another case with Lipo battery pack for a portable wireless headphone amp type application.

when will I be able to purchase ? Could I purchase just the board / alpha version to experiment with ?

JimH · « **Reply #38 on:** March 17, 2010, 09:13:55 am »

Quote from: 666JackTheKnife666 on March 17, 2010, 05:01:33 am

Any chance you could take it apart so I can see the size of the actual board.

I plan on sticking it (the board) in another case with Lipo battery pack for a portable wireless headphone amp type application.

when will I be able to purchase ? Could I purchase just the board / alpha version to experiment with ?

A picture of the board is attached. The final board may be different. It is about 3 inches square and about 1/2 an inch thick (wireless radio).

I'll post here when I know more about availablity. Thanks for your interest.

JimH · « **Reply #39 on:** March 17, 2010, 09:29:01 am »

Quote from: jmone on March 16, 2010, 11:29:05 pm

So if I interpret the pics correctly it looks you you have:
- Stereo Analog Output via RCA
- Ethernet & Wireless? network connection
- Plug Pack for the adapter (12V / 5V???) so easy to adapt to all countries

Looks like with the addition of a Web Based Control point you have a competitor to Apple's Airport....(with one negative, Apple stuff always looks great, this one is a bit fugly - I hope the casing is a prototype!)

Stereo analog out via RCA, correct. Wireless network. Electrical adaptor is 110 to 240 volt input, 12 volt output.

JimH · « **Reply #40 on:** March 17, 2010, 09:58:24 am »

Quote from: wombat66 on March 17, 2010, 01:44:16 am

... When will these be available?

I'm expecting to have the first shipment in May. Expect a price of $79.98 + shipping.

jmone · « **Reply #41 on:** March 17, 2010, 02:51:29 pm »

Thanks Jim - Couple of more Q's:
1) How does the device "appear" on the network
2) Does it appear as a "Zone" in MC (and is there any limit)
3) If it is a Zone do you select your sound output settings (eg WASAPI, DirectShow etc) for each unit and is there a limit
4) Does Matt approve of the DAC?!?!?!

Nathan

JimH · « **Reply #42 on:** March 17, 2010, 03:00:51 pm »

Quote from: jmone on March 17, 2010, 02:51:29 pm

1) How does the device "appear" on the network

It can use several methods to be discovered. One is WPS -- this requires a compatible router. It's similar to Bluetooth pairing. Another is a Win7 method that uses a memory stick to copy the configuration from a PC to the device.

Quote

2) Does it appear as a "Zone" in MC (and is there any limit)

It shows up as a zone under Playing Now. I don't know about limits yet.

Quote

3) If it is a Zone do you select your sound output settings (eg WASAPI, DirectShow etc) for each unit and is there a limit

MC gives the file to the device and it is "played" there, so playback method in MC isn't relevant.

Quote

4) Does Matt approve of the DAC?!?!?!

We won't sell it until he does, but we don't have final firmware yet.

jmone · « **Reply #43 on:** March 17, 2010, 03:09:03 pm »

Thanks Jim - by being "Played There" do you mean that MC decodes the MP3/WMA/FLAC files to PCM that is sent to the Imaginary Device that is then uses the DAC to conver it to Analoge? OR Does it acutal have CODECS in the devices so you sent it the file and it both decodes as we as DACs?

JimH · « **Reply #44 on:** March 17, 2010, 03:19:35 pm »

Quote from: jmone on March 17, 2010, 03:09:03 pm

Thanks Jim - by being "Played There" do you mean that MC decodes the MP3/WMA/FLAC files to PCM that is sent to the Imaginary Device that is then uses the DAC to conver it to Analoge? OR Does it acutal have CODECS in the devices so you sent it the file and it both decodes as we as DACs?

The device does the decoding. This is the usual way that DLNA devices work. The server just serves a file. The renderer decodes and plays it.

Matt · « **Reply #45 on:** March 17, 2010, 03:21:02 pm »

Quote from: JimH on March 17, 2010, 03:19:35 pm

The device does the decoding.

The final firmware should also allow streaming LPCM, so Media Center would do the decoding.

jmone · « **Reply #46 on:** March 17, 2010, 03:22:56 pm »

EDIT - Matt got in as I was posting this one!

Interesting - looks like a bunch of options! (I've got one of those old in house intercom systems that can also pipe music). Good to see you can decode and stream PCM to the device's DAC. When using the device to decode:
1) What formats does it support nativly and I presume we can use the transcoding engine in MC as with the DLNA devices to transcode any unsupported formats?
2) Is the buffering done of the PC or can you send a whole playlist
3) Device Control - MC, DLNA, Web Front end (via MC

)
Thanks
Nathan

Nice looking PCB...

JimH · « **Reply #47 on:** March 17, 2010, 03:42:00 pm »

1. We're not certain yet, but I believe it will support MP3, WAV, and FLAC.
2. DLNA normally sends a file at a time.
3. Not sure what you're asking.

jmone · « **Reply #48 on:** March 17, 2010, 03:47:52 pm »

Sorry was edging at that I assume you can control the device not only from MC's Std View as the control point but also other items such as a Web Browser front end on your Phone etc.

Eg Your outside in the BBQ area where the Imaginary Device is connected to a Stereo. You use you Mobile phone to control MC over your NW that is controlling the Imaginary Device.

JimH · « **Reply #49 on:** March 17, 2010, 03:54:57 pm »

Quote from: jmone on March 17, 2010, 03:47:52 pm

Sorry was edging at that I assume you can control the device not only from MC's Std View as the control point but also other items such as a Web Browser front end on your Phone etc.

Eg Your outside in the BBQ area where the Imaginary Device is connected to a Stereo. You use you Mobile phone to control MC over your NW that is controlling the Imaginary Device.

Yes. That would be possible. It's a DLNA Renderer and it's controllable by a DLNA Controller (not all renderers are controllable).

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Author Topic: Imaginary Device [JRiver Id is now shipping] (Read 40058 times)