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[PNCD1]

I have been trying Theatre View as a touch screen interface but am impeded by the frequency of crashes.  Not only does MC crash but it brings up Win 7 BSOD when it goes.
No obvious cause - if playing the crash can occur anywhere between 5 tracks and 2 hours.  Same playlist will be fine in a regular view.
Is anyone else finding this?  Is this recent behaviour or has Theatre View always been fragile?

[JimH]

Try updating your video driver.  Try installing the latest version of DirectX from Microsoft.

Theater View is solid.

[phoenix91]

Same happens here with Windows 7, X64.
When starting from hibernation, BSOD occurs after playing the first couple of tracks.
It seems that the last Windows update day (14th december) changed something, because I cannot remember any crashes before that date.

[JimH]

What video hardware do you have?  Nvidia?

[phoenix91]

It's a MSI T6600 Multitouch AllInOne PC with GeForce9300 Graphic Card. ION Driver.
Already upgraded to the newest driver package a couple of days ago.

[rayooo]

PNCD1:
I'm still in the process of learning MC15..but I have now used a number of the beta versions posted.

I use Theatre view exclusively on an HTPC, no mouse/kb, simple remote via JRiver Remote control.
I use Kernal Streaming to DAC for FLAC playback only. (not used at all for any DVD or streaming video playback, strictly an audio flac playback device)

All versions I've tried have random blue screen or "the Application has stopped responding". (currently using .167, but several earlier versions exhibited same crash)

It always happens during play, mostly it seems during shuffle play of entire library.
I've literally gone hours with no problems, other times I'll get the crash within an hour.

I've tried to view log entries, but have been unable to determine where specifically in a given log to look.
(no email program or KB on the PC, which makes it harder to troubleshoot, I did have another crash this AM, and since I now have mouse/kb attached)

PC is based on ASUS AT5IONT-I, Nvidia ION, SSD, Win7 64 Bit, 4GIG Ram. Media Libray is on Thecus NAS (Mapped network drive, gig-E network)

I'm not at all sure the issue I've been having is related to yours, but it did sound at least similar, which prompted me to post this note.

I'm in the process of updating drivers etc. If I can determine anything conclusive I'll post an update.

[JimH]

Nvidia chips so far.

Note that the newest driver may not be the best.

Theater View uses 3D drawing. 

[rayooo]

I'm trying to sort through the video drivers now.

I had one from a few months back initially. there seemed to be an even older one posted on the Asus web site.

I did this AM update to the very latest posted on Nvidia Web site.
If this one does not work, I'll go to the one posted on Asus web site.

If I can come up with some idea of what driver works best, I'll post the versions.

[rayooo]

One thing I notice...

Normally, when MC finishes one song and moves on to the next. both the audio output and displayed album cover switch at almost the same time.

In other cases, the audio out will change to the new song, and the old album art will remain displayed for several seconds. 

I generally get the sense that when this condition begins, I'll get a crash sometime fairly soon.

I'm not sure if this means anything at all.


 

[JimH]

Read what glynor says about drivers here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=60918.msg411043#msg411043

Also try updating DirectX from Microsoft.  Even if the OS is new.

[PNCD1]

It seems that several people have experienced fragility with the Theatre View.

Rayoo, my experience is similar to yours: it is happening when I have a shuffled play list, I also experience some lag between the cover change and the song change - though I cannot say that is an indicator for a crash.  I do not think it has anything to do with bit depth/sample rate or audio format or playback method as all of that works just fine in the standard display.  I do think it is specifically to do with Theatre View.  Maybe something about the background images: bad format, mistyped format?  Maybe a Win 6 x64 issue with MC15?  Maybe it is video drivers for 3D.

My PC is dedicated to audio playback so it runs minimal services and no other apps.  Drivers are current.

I appreciate that drivers can vary in quality over time, but this sounds like something that has to to do with a fragility in MC15 Theatre View, which may be exacerbated by drivers, or not.  If it is a video driver issue then I think it is relevant for MC15 to provide guidelines as to what is supported.  I do not use MC15 for video playback so I cannot say if there are problems with that.  It does not sound as if "Theatre View is solid" is not a good overall conclusion.

[JimH]

I appreciate that drivers can vary in quality over time, but this sounds like something that has to to do with a fragility in MC15 Theatre View, which may be exacerbated by drivers, or not.  If it is a video driver issue then I think it is relevant for MC15 to provide guidelines as to what is supported.  I do not use MC15 for video playback so I cannot say if there are problems with that.  It does not sound as if "Theatre View is solid" is not a good overall conclusion.

Until we find the cause, anything is possible, but Theater View is not, in general, fragile.  We have a lot of users on Win7 64.  We develop on it.

What is different about Theater View than other views is that Theater View uses 3D drawing.

Is anyone having the problem with hardware other than Nvidia?

Please note what I said above:

Also try updating DirectX from Microsoft.  Even if the OS is new.

[rayooo]

I did run the Direct Update yesterday and also did load the latest video driver. (have now tried 3 different video driver versions)

DXDiag states all is fine, but who knows for sure.
I did also update to MC Version .171

I ran this new config in theater view, shuffle play and it again crashed in an hour or so.
The MC theater view window stays open, but a system notice pops up stating that Media Center has stopped responding.

I ran MC for at least 8 hours yesterday in "normal" non-theater view and it did not crash.
I think this really does only happen in theater view.

No virus, or other apps running in the bkgd.

I do have the MC logging turned back on.

Assuming a crash occurs, would I likely find the event (assuming it shows up) in the current or previous log?
I'm a little unsure as to how/when a current log becomes a previous log? Does this only occur when selecting: "Click to Reset Log"

[JimH]

Assuming a crash occurs, would I likely find the event (assuming it shows up) in the current or previous log?
I'm a little unsure as to how/when a current log becomes a previous log? Does this only occur when selecting: "Click to Reset Log"

After a crash, the relevant log would be the "previous" one.  The log is rotated on each start of MC.  No need to reset manually.

[Matt]

What if you play and leave Theater View at the home view instead of 'Playing Now'?

I'm wondering if it's related to showing an online slideshow (which happens in Playing Now).

Thanks.

[rayooo]

What if you play and leave Theater View at the home view instead of 'Playing Now'?

I'm wondering if it's related to showing an online slideshow (which happens in Playing Now).

Thanks.

I'm just trying to understand why I never thought of trying this!!    THANKS!

One other thing I tried and completely forgot to mention... the PC's performance setting had been at "balanced"
I've now switched it to "High Performance".  It's obviously not a screaming fast PC, maybe Windows just "thinks" the application has stopped responding.

This was just changed today, no crashes since. (yet?)  ..a little like waiting for water to boil though.

[rayooo]

well, it ran several hours today just fine, 'was almost about to get hopeful, then the crash.



I am now going to let it run in theater-home-view.

[rayooo]

It seems that several people have experienced fragility with the Theatre View.

Rayoo, my experience is similar to yours: it is happening when I have a shuffled play list, I also experience some lag between the cover change and the song change - though I cannot say that is an indicator for a crash.  I do not think it has anything to do with bit depth/sample rate or audio format or playback method as all of that works just fine in the standard display.  I do think it is specifically to do with Theatre View.  Maybe something about the background images: bad format, mistyped format?  Maybe a Win 6 x64 issue with MC15?  Maybe it is video drivers for 3D.

My PC is dedicated to audio playback so it runs minimal services and no other apps.  Drivers are current.

I appreciate that drivers can vary in quality over time, but this sounds like something that has to to do with a fragility in MC15 Theatre View, which may be exacerbated by drivers, or not.  If it is a video driver issue then I think it is relevant for MC15 to provide guidelines as to what is supported.  I do not use MC15 for video playback so I cannot say if there are problems with that.  It does not sound as if "Theatre View is solid" is not a good overall conclusion.

PNCD1,
Unfortunately I'm no closer today to coming up with anything than I was a couple months back. I can't really say with conviction where the problem lies.
I did run memory tests etc. on my HTPC. It seems stable otherwise. It's never crashed doing anything other than MC, but I just don't know.
The thing ran yesterday for several hours fine, I pressed skip > a couple times and within 10 minutes later it had crashed.

I'm running today in theater home view. Assuming it runs all day fine, I guess I'll at least be confident that the issue is something related to "Now Playing" Album covers.

I didn't intend to hijack your thread, I've been living with this for a few months now, seeing your initial comment prompted me to jump in!

[phoenix91]

Looks like I solved the crash problem with my MSI T6600. No more BSOD for three days now.

What I did:

• Update MC15 to Version 15.0.171 (from .169)
• Exclude all MC15 programs/processes from antivirus scanning (Microsoft Security Essential1)
• Full restore of a library backup (library/settings) from my main pc because there was an error fix in Version .169
  15.0.169 (12/16/2010)
  1. Fixed: Restoring library backup settings would not work properly (only applies to last few builds).

Don't ask me what helped, but the three steps solved the problem here.
Maybe it's interesting for somebody else too.

[PNCD1]

Rayoo: you have not hijacked anything of mine!  You are far more focused on this than I am - I just get frustrated.
Phoenix91: I am using MSE2 so i have now gone in and excluded those processes to see what gives.  I am not sure what you mean about the library backups.  Are you suggesting making a backup and then restoring from it so that .171 will reprocess in a way it did not when converting the actual library from 1.69?  Seems unlikely and seem unrelated to Theatre View, but I will try it when I understand what you did.

It seems likely to me that it is a problem with the Playing Now view since that introduces another layer of processing the external art work. Could it be mistyped image files?  Do the image files changes at a steady rate or does it vary - I am thinking about what would cause the problem at random times and a variable rate combined with a leak would do that.

The holidays have taken me away from playing so much music so I will report back if anything changes from adjusting MSE2.

[rayooo]

 update...

I ran MC15 in Theater home view, entire library shuffle for probably 12 hours no problem.
..thus I'm "assuming" there is no problem with the library or basic playback function.

I'm fairly confident in saying that the problem only occurs, for me,  in Theater view "playing now".
Seems to be directly related to displaying the album-art in this view.

I've tried the 3 different graphics quality settings. Settings 1 and 2 seem to work fine (I settled on 2 as it looks a bit better), but both crash. Setting 3 (highest quality) seems quite slow and thus I have not tried it for any length of time.

I can play a mix of FLAC/Kernal Streaming (44, 88, 96 and even a few 192khz) for hours no problem when using any display view other than the "playing now" in Theater view.

If I had to speculate, I'd say that MC needs a bit better performing platform than my Asus/Atom/ION PC has.

I've disabled everything I can think of:

Initially 3 months ago I had:
Disabled all MSoft Security, although I guess MS firewall is still on.
Disabled all scheduled tasks.
Disabled automatic updates.

Last week I:
Set System performance from balanced to high-performance.
Tried the old urban legend for windows of going to a fixed size swap file. (although with 4 GIG Ram and only MC running I can't imagine why this would help anything)
Even overclocked the MB slightly.

I was able to at one point run 4ish hours after these latest tweaks, but in reality I can't say for sure anything improved as there have been times in the past I've gone at least a few hours before crash anyway.

Happy Holidays everyone!

[Matt]

rayoo, if you could use Help > Logging to get a log of a crash and send the result to matt at jriver dot com, I'd appreciate it.

It's possible a bad image from online is causing trouble or something, and the log might offer clues.

Thanks.

[PNCD1]

Update

I modified MSE 2 to remove all MC processes.

Like rayoo, I can have Theatre View running and it keeps going, it is when playing, and therefore Playing Now) that the problem arises.
I have not adjusted quality settings - I never noticed them.  I will also send a log when I am using it next.

[rayooo]

rayoo, if you could use Help > Logging to get a log of a crash and send the result to matt at jriver dot com, I'd appreciate it.

It's possible a bad image from online is causing trouble or something, and the log might offer clues.

Thanks.

Logging is turned on and I'll send logs along. But, for whatever reason I've not had a crash for a few days now.
I'll leave it running all day today.
I've even tried to get it to crash by pressing skip-forward quite a lot.

for what it's worth, it's running now shuffle play all albums, I just went in and skipped forward on a dozen or so songs. In each case pressing skip caused the album art to change instantly to next album cover art. This is always a good sign that a crash is not imminent.
In the past, pressing skip forward, the new song would start but the album art would not change for 5-10 seconds into the new song.. so for 10 seconds or so  the displayed album art did not match the song playing.

[PNCD1]

Matt
I just send a log from a crash today.
I have disabled MSE2 and dropped the image quality to medium.

[PNCD1]

Matt
I have sent you a second email with today's crash log.

[Matt]

Thanks for the logs.  Unfortunately they don't log that they crash (shown by the word "crashing" near the end)

Let's focus on the 12/29 log first.

It shows the slowest startup I've ever seen (time Windows spends loading parts of the executable).  Normally this is like a couple hundred milliseconds, and it was 30 seconds in your log:
0000016: 1832: General: CMCPlayerApp::InitInstance: Pre-logging time: 30436 ms

Can you think of any explanation for this?  Was the computer booting and the boot disk swamped?


Next, it shows some WASAPI failures opening files.  For example:
1490496: 1268: Playback: CWASAPIEventingPlugin::StartWASAPI: Failed to initialize audio client (hr: 0x80070057)

On a file like this:
\\BIGDISK\media\Music\JukeBox\Albert King\Albert King - I'll Play the Blues for You (SACD) - 01 - I'll Play the Blues for You, Pts. 1 - 2.flac

Since it continues on to other files that do play, this may be meaningless.


The log ends abruptly, but no threads that log show any dangling activity.

It is reading from this file, possibly using in-memory playback:
\\BIGDISK\media\Music\JukeBox\Bessie Smith\Bessie Smith - The Essential Bessie Smith Disc 2 - 01 - Alexander's Ragtime Band.flac

You might disable in-memory playback as a test.


The log from 1/4 shows no playback.  The only thing in the log is mild network activity for Media Network features (searching for hardware, etc.)  You could disable Media Network features to test, although I don't think it will make much difference.


One thing I did see is that when the system queries to turn off the monitor while in Theater View each second, we were doing more work than necessary.  We were spending maybe 15ms working, and I think it can be more like 1ms.  It's a small change, but nice none the less.

[PNCD1]

Matt
Thanks for the diagnosis.  Let me try to give you more context.

1. Is this the Media Server?  If so, it loads at boot time and probably is swamped.  MC usually boots very fast - I use a SSD.
2. WASAPI may have failed if I did not have the Weiss Firewire connected, no?
3. Well, we are testing the crashes in how I use the products, yes?  If so, then I use in-memory playback to avoid network latency issues.
4. I did not play anything.  I brought up MC in Theatre View and left it - it was displaying Genres with cover art cycling for a selected Genre.

I have experienced no crashes except in Theatre View and persistent crashing in Theatre View regardless of in-memory playback etc.
Peter

[JimH]

I have experienced no crashes except in Theatre View and persistent crashing in Theatre View regardless of in-memory playback etc.

A crash in Theater View may be related to video drivers.  Also try updating DirectShow from Microsoft.

[PNCD1]

Yes, Jim, we had been through this at the start of the thread.
I understand that some video drivers may have problems with the 3D presentation of Theatre View and that even current drivers may not be any better.  Hard to determine, no?
I have the current DirectX from Microsoft.  I think DirectShow is the name of the broad media framework SDK rather than a library that can be downloaded, no?
The bottom line seems to be that there is something fragile about Theatre View in that it can run for an hour or eight hours before crashing the system.  It could be drivers, it could be a bad image, it could be some kind of leak.  That is what we are trying to find out, no?  What we do know is that some error is not handled in MC and causes a system crash, specifically in Theatre View.
Why am I focused on this?  Because I posted to see if anyone would develop a touchscreen-friendly UI for me and was pointed to Theatre View.  That then led to my experience of the fragility of Theatre View.  I do not really care about Theatre View, and its 3D effects, per se.  I just want to be able to use MC for its superior advantages as a HiRes audio player and I want to be able to do that with my touchscreen interface so I do not have to fuss with small controls and selections.  If someone tells me to stop trying to resolve this, then I will stop - no problem - but this Forum is the place in which use-case issues can be resolved to continue to improve and strengthen the product, no?  Just tell me to stop and I will stop forwarding log files etc.

[JimH]

Yes, Jim, we had been through this at the start of the thread.
I understand that some video drivers may have problems with the 3D presentation of Theatre View and that even current drivers may not be any better.  Hard to determine, no?
I have the current DirectX from Microsoft.  I think DirectShow is the name of the broad media framework SDK rather than a library that can be downloaded, no?
The bottom line seems to be that there is something fragile about Theatre View in that it can run for an hour or eight hours before crashing the system. 

Sorry if I repeated myself.  I don't re-read each thread before answering.

Yes, it's possible that it's our bug.  But we're not seeing it frequently enough for me to believe it is.

Try turning down the frame rate and the drawing quality in Theater View options.  If it is the driver, this might help.

Depending on your hardware, it might be useful to try a different video card.

[PNCD1]

Matt: I have sent another crash log.
Jim: I have avoided any assumption of a "bug".  It may be an unhandled error with a bad image file, it may be a bug, it may be drivers.  It is happening consistently to some of your users, including me.

[PNCD1]

Jim
Is there some way to trace a driver problem in Windows 7 x64?
A Windows log some developer toolkit add-on?
Is there another application that is similar to your use of 3D that I can run or bench against?
If it is a driver problem then it is still MC that is crashing and not able to handle the event, so let's try to identify the cause, no?

[JimH]

If it's a driver problem, as I believe, it's pretty hard for us to work around it.

Did you try my suggestions in my last post?

[rayooo]

Jim
Is there some way to trace a driver problem in Windows 7 x64?
A Windows log some developer toolkit add-on?
Is there another application that is similar to your use of 3D that I can run or bench against?
If it is a driver problem then it is still MC that is crashing and not able to handle the event, so let's try to identify the cause, no?

Hi PNCD1

'just wanted to give you a quick update on my situation...
I've had no crashes for some time now. I'm not really not sure why as all I've done is a few basic tweaks as mentioned in my post from a week ago or so.

I personally never got the sense it was specifically video driver related. In the past Windows was always pretty good about identifying blue screens or app crashes that were related to video driver. In my case neither the blue screen crashes, or app crashes ever mentioned anything about the video driver. I had crashes with 3 different video driver versions. But having said all that, it's purely my own un-educated guess.

In my most recent crashes, I got the Windows "the application has stopped responding" and JRiver was listed as the offending app. I myself could not find anything within windows or even the JRiver logs that provided any more insight.

In the last crash I was able to look at, I checked both the current and past JRiver logs..started at the end and began looking upwards through the text. Not a single line jumped out as strange, but of course it's very likely more insight would have been gotten if one of the MCGurus had been looking.

I've had logging turned on now for days, no crashes. If/when I do get another I'll be sure to get the logs and send out. 

One minor suggesting to the MC Development... My MC player is an appliance with no apps installed other than MC.
thus the "click to email log" goes nowhere. an "export log to file" or some such would make it a bit easier, although I can of course save the viewed logs from within notepad.

 

[PNCD1]

Matt
I have sent you two logs that happened just minutes apart.
In the first case Theatre View had been running for about four hours with shuffle.
In the second case, I had restarted MC 15, selected Theatre View and was selecting a Genre when the crash occurred.

As Rayoo says, Windows gives no indication of a driver issue when it recovers and gives you the option to investigate the source of the crash.

Jim.
As I indicated in the thread above, following Rayoo's experience I did downgrade the image resolution to medium.  I am willing to drop to the lowest if you think that makes a difference. 
I am not sure what you mean by "frame rate" to be turned down.

[Matt]

Matt
I have sent you two logs that happened just minutes apart.
In the first case Theatre View had been running for about four hours with shuffle.
In the second case, I had restarted MC 15, selected Theatre View and was selecting a Genre when the crash occurred.

Thanks for the logs.

The first one was interesting because the program was loading a huge image for the background of Theater View.  I don't think there's a leak, but it's possible the video card doesn't behave nicely if it gets swamped.

To narrow this down further, could you do a few things:

1) In Options > Theater View > Theme > Disable 'Show online media slideshow in artist views', reboot, and try some more

2) In Theater View, press "Pause / Break" on the keyboard until "Texture: ..." is shown in the top left corner.  Then post the full text of that entry, including the hex number.

3) Report the video card you're using (manufacturer and model), and driver version if possible.  Also, report your screen resolution.

Thank you.

[PNCD1]

Matt
I am sending you two log files and the information you requested.
The first log comes from a few hours of playback this morning.
The second follows the first crash and after I disabled Show online media.....  I went into Theatre View and selected Audio - it crashed again without displaying the Audio view.

[Matt]

My best guess is that this is a video card or driver failure.

The logs never log a crash, meaning it's not a traditional application crash but more likely a hardware-level crash.  Once it crashes (after hours of use), it seems like it puts the hardware in a bad state and then it crashes as soon as you load Theater View again on the next run.

It's possible there's some out-of-memory condition we're not catching, but simulating sporadic texture creation failures in the debugger doesn't show any issue.  We seem to handle this about as well as possible.

Is there any chance you could try a different video card?  We've had good luck in Theater View with some of the most basic modern cards.

[Matt]

Just an additional data point that we left our most underpowered system (a netbook capable of only a few frames per second in Theater View) playing for the last 24 hours in Theater View's Playing Now with an online slideshow playing.  It worked.

[raym]

I use tview almost exclusively across numerous HTPC clients and haven't had any hangs or crashes.

I'm inclined to agree it is a video card/driver issue.

[JimH]

Here's a thread at AVSForum with some inexpensive video cards:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1306312

[PNCD1]

OK
I will sign off on this.
It is not a matter of my affording a video card - I am using an HP TouchSmart all-in-one.
Time will tell.
Meanwhile I can go looking for a better touchscreen UI design, which is what started all this when Jim suggested that I use Theatre View.
Thanks for trying.