Topic: Best output with MC (Read 10036 times)

maid · « **on:** November 11, 2011, 06:59:02 pm »

My husband and I are in conflict with the sound from our system and I would like some input if I can.

We are connected to an AV Kenwood receiver using Spdif which I think is great he says his music sounds terrible he says the kenwood is restricted because the equalizer only has set modes.

Would using MC to decode the music and video sound better?

HTPC
Intel Core 2 Duo CPU E7600 @ 3.06 3.07
Ram 2.00GB
Windows 7
Gigabyte EP35C DS3R Motherboard
Nvidia GForce 9500GT
Receiver Kenwood KRF-V5100D

fitbrit · « **Reply #1 on:** November 11, 2011, 07:29:12 pm »

What format of music do you guys play? mp3, flac, etc.?
What kind of speakers do you have, and how many?
Subwoofer?
Some of the surround modes from a receiver aren't the best for music, but work well for movies. SPDIF shouldn't be the problem.

maid · « **Reply #2 on:** November 11, 2011, 07:34:31 pm »

Mp3 5.1 Kenwood with sub woofer.

jmone · « **Reply #3 on:** November 11, 2011, 07:34:44 pm »

Quote from: fitbrit on November 11, 2011, 07:29:12 pm

SPDIF shouldn't be the problem.

SPDIF will be an issue if you want Multi Channel HD Audio (either decoded or bitstreamed) as this connection type is limited to a max of 2ch PCM for decoded audio or 5.1 DTS/DD for bitstreaming. So to expand of fitbrit's questions, do you play anything with Multi Channel HD Audio (typically from Blu-ray discs, files or rips but I do have some HD Multi Channel FLAC as well)?

maid · « **Reply #4 on:** November 11, 2011, 07:39:06 pm »

If I knew what Multi channel HD audio was I could tell you. We mainly play dvd rips in MKV DTS. No Bluray discs

fitbrit · « **Reply #5 on:** November 11, 2011, 07:46:54 pm »

Quote from: jmone on November 11, 2011, 07:34:44 pm

SPDIF will be an issue if you want Multi Channel HD Audio (either decoded or bitstreamed) as this connection type is limited to a max of 2ch PCM for decoded audio or 5.1 DTS/DD for bitstreaming. So to expand of fitbrit's questions, do you play anything with Multi Channel HD Audio (typically from Blu-ray discs, files or rips but I do have some HD Multi Channel FLAC as well)?

The original problem was Mr. maid complains that his music sounds terrible; I assumed that it would be 2-channel and not a problem for spdif. jmone is absolutely right about spdif's limitations when it comes to HD audio for movies - LPCM, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA, and more rarely multi-channel FLAC. It shouldn't be a night and day difference between these and DD/DTS for most people with normal hearing, although there is hopefully an audible improvement going to HD audio.

jmone · « **Reply #6 on:** November 11, 2011, 07:48:26 pm »

So the S/PDIF spec is limited to 2ch PCM (eg from a CD), and up to 5.1 DD or DTS (eg from a DVD). It can not carry for example 5.1 PCM or Any of the newer "HD" audio formats like DTS-HD, TrueHD, DD+ that are typically found on Blu-ray discs. To carry these you need either HDMI (which your receiver does not have) but it does have "6-Channel Input for DVD-Audio/SACD" which will do just fine for all formats if you use MC to decode all audio and then send it out these connections. You would only consider this if you wanted to have MC decode all your audio, do it's DSP work on the PC the send it to your receiver just for amplification (eg you would not use any of the DSP features in the receiver).

Forgetting all of that however for a second....nothing will make a poor quality MP3 (or outher source) sound any good IMO.

fitbrit · « **Reply #7 on:** November 11, 2011, 07:53:56 pm »

Quote from: maid on November 11, 2011, 07:34:31 pm

Mp3 5.1 Kenwood with sub woofer.

It could be that your mp3s are low bitrate (quality). mp3 files take up very little disk space, but they are what's known as lossy audio, as opposed to lossless or HD audio.
It could be that your speakers aren't the best, which is likely, but they are probably okay for mp3 playback.
Does your receiver have a stereo or direct mode, with or without subwoofer? You could try that. Or even all channel stereo if you want to be enveloped in sound. I also don't mind Dolby ProLogicII(x) Music as a DSP for some types of music.

kensn · « **Reply #8 on:** November 11, 2011, 07:56:02 pm »

Does it sound better from a cd being played in a cd player? What is his reference to the bad sound quailty... Does it sound better from a different source on the same setup?

maid · « **Reply #9 on:** November 11, 2011, 07:56:56 pm »

So if I get this correct.

If we get rid of the spdif connection and use the 6 channel input all my newly ripped bluray movies will play better using mc for everything??

and what format should I rip our CDs?

imugli · « **Reply #10 on:** November 11, 2011, 08:06:34 pm »

Try ape or flac.

Your setup will only ever be as strong as the weakest link allows it to be.

In this case I'd say it's those mp3s. Great for cramming thousands of songs on an iPod and sending your self deaf listening to half the song that was orginally recorded, but not for immersing yourselves in music in your lounge room.

maid · « **Reply #11 on:** November 11, 2011, 08:12:51 pm »

Thanks for the music side now how about my MKV ripped from Bluray.

craigmcg · « **Reply #12 on:** November 11, 2011, 08:25:23 pm »

As jmone mentioned, SPDIF doesn't have the bandwidth to send a full resolution audio bluray rip to your receiver; in order to do that you need a HDMI connection. If your receiver doesn't have a HDMI connection and you want to use the 6 channel input on the receiver to get the full resolution audio (otherwise it will be no better than the DVD), you need to have a soundcard that can output the bluray rip at full resolution. Not all soundcards do.

maid · « **Reply #13 on:** November 11, 2011, 08:32:13 pm »

Do you know if this one does Nvidia GForce 9500GT

maid · « **Reply #14 on:** November 11, 2011, 09:36:39 pm »

As I am not getting any more replies on this one I did some research (as I had this system built for me) I think the soundcard is on the motherboard which is a GA EP35CX-DS3R

Does that help?

kensn · « **Reply #15 on:** November 11, 2011, 09:53:35 pm »

Your audio fidelity from a PC will vary. The on board Analog on a motherboard will usually be of a poor quality. The optical signal (Digital) you are using now is just passing the 1s and 0s to your reciever which is turning it into Analog and playing it. Both of these are only as good as the source file you are playing. If you use the Analog output of the built in sound device of your motherboard, the reciever just amplifies what it is getting. I would step back for a minute and really focus on where the problem lies. If other play back from a dvd player or other source sounds far superior than your PC sound, then you should start to look at where it is failing, but if the sound from others devices seems lackluster also, I would start looking at the equipment and how it is setup....

Ken

BryanC · « **Reply #16 on:** November 11, 2011, 10:29:42 pm »

Quote from: maid on November 11, 2011, 09:36:39 pm

As I am not getting any more replies on this one I did some research (as I had this system built for me) I think the soundcard is on the motherboard which is a GA EP35CX-DS3R

Does that help?

Your video card does not support HD audio. If it were me personally, I would run analog cables from your motherboard's soundcard to your receiver and do the decoding in MC.

maid · « **Reply #17 on:** November 11, 2011, 11:54:23 pm »

Doing that as we speak thanks

audunth · « **Reply #18 on:** November 12, 2011, 12:07:06 am »

Running standard DTS/DD through SPDIF is probably better than HD audio through an onboard soundcard's analog outputs, since the decoder in the amp will be a lot better. Of course the best is to try both and use whatever you think sounds better

Also, did you use a program to rip the Blu-rays that preserves the HD audio? If not HD audio isn't an issue...

jmone · « **Reply #19 on:** November 12, 2011, 12:12:37 am »

Quote from: audunth on November 12, 2011, 12:07:06 am

Running standard DTS/DD through SPDIF is probably better than HD audio through an onboard soundcard's analog outputs, since the decoder in the amp will be a lot better. Of course the best is to try both and use whatever you think sounds better

Also, did you use a program to rip the Blu-rays that preserves the HD audio? If not HD audio isn't an issue...

I think you mean DAC (not decoder) though I agree that the only way to tell is to try and see what sounds better.

maid · « **Reply #20 on:** November 12, 2011, 12:44:00 am »

So if I am understanding all this Neither my receiver or Realtek onboard sound does not support HD

jmone · « **Reply #21 on:** November 12, 2011, 12:45:59 am »

HD Audio is fine if you
* MC will Decode the HD Audio --> Soundcard (DAC) --> 6ch Analog Output --> Receiver (amplify the signal) --> Speakers

maid · « **Reply #22 on:** November 12, 2011, 01:02:47 am »

What is (DAC)?

pcstockton · « **Reply #23 on:** November 12, 2011, 01:23:12 am »

Quote from: maid on November 12, 2011, 01:02:47 am

What is (DAC)?

he meant "soundcard OR DAC". A DAC is an analog coverter with digital inputs. Google/wiki the concept.

maid · « **Reply #24 on:** November 12, 2011, 01:32:50 am »

Now Using Soundcard and 6ch Analog Output with Receiver (amplify the signal)

Does this mean that I can get the full HD from a ripped Bluray

audunth · « **Reply #25 on:** November 12, 2011, 06:11:57 am »

There are two things you have to make sure to get the HD audio from a ripped Blu-ray:

1) When ripping the Blu-ray, make sure the full HD audio is ripped, not just the standard DTS/DD audio. For example, a DTS-HD soundtrack also contains a DTS Core, so that it can be compatible with older receivers not supporting HD audio. Some programs just rip the DTS Core audio, leaving the ripped MKV file with only DTS audio, not DTS-HD.

2) The LAV Audio decoder used in MC only supports decoding of DTS-HD if a file called dtsdecoderdll.dll from a TMT (TotalMedia Theatre) installation. More on this here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=67401.0 . Blu-rays with Dolby TrueHD or LPCM audio doesn't need this file.

jmone · « **Reply #26 on:** November 12, 2011, 03:47:12 pm »

Quote from: pcstockton on November 12, 2011, 01:23:12 am

he meant "soundcard OR DAC". A DAC is an analog coverter with digital inputs. Google/wiki the concept.

Well any device that takes a digital signal in and pushes out an analog one has a DAC (Digital to Analoge Converter in it), eg the Soundcard has a DAC in it. Some people by optionally use an seperate dedicated DAC for quality reasons but they both do the same job. Many still will use the DAC in the receiver if they it is receving a S/PDIF, HDMI connection.

maid · « **Reply #27 on:** November 12, 2011, 05:37:06 pm »

Quote from: audunth on November 12, 2011, 06:11:57 am

There are two things you have to make sure to get the HD audio from a ripped Blu-ray:

1) When ripping the Blu-ray, make sure the full HD audio is ripped, not just the standard DTS/DD audio. For example, a DTS-HD soundtrack also contains a DTS Core, so that it can be compatible with older receivers not supporting HD audio. Some programs just rip the DTS Core audio, leaving the ripped MKV file with only DTS audio, not DTS-HD.

2) The LAV Audio decoder used in MC only supports decoding of DTS-HD if a file called dtsdecoderdll.dll from a TMT (TotalMedia Theatre) installation. More on this here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=67401.0 . Blu-rays with Dolby TrueHD or LPCM audio doesn't need this file.

So I need to instal TMT on the HTPC then copy the dtsdecoderdll.dll ?

Hendrik · « **Reply #28 on:** November 12, 2011, 05:39:09 pm »

Quote from: maid on November 12, 2011, 05:37:06 pm

So I need to instal TMT on the HTPC then copy the dtsdecoderdll.dll ?

You can also copy the file from another PC, if you have it installed there already, or its easier to do so.

maid · « **Reply #29 on:** November 13, 2011, 05:02:57 pm »

Well after much changing we are now at Spdif bitstreaming for video.

I have created a zone for my husbands music but cant get wasapi event style to work I can only get direct sound with default speakers.

The music now seems to be breaking down becoming scratchy.

What settings can I use so that he can use the dsp studio??? Do I have to go Wasapi spidif?? as the computer is set to spdif.

BryanC · « **Reply #30 on:** November 14, 2011, 02:04:37 pm »

Try lowering the output buffer and change to WASAPI - Event Style.

Just remember that with spdif, you will not be able to listen to HD audio. You are limited to DTS, DD, and 2-channel PCM. You will also lose the videoclock (resampling) and DSP functionality of MC unless you choose to decode, and then reencode to Dolby 5.1.

If you need any more help, feel free to ask.

maid · « **Reply #31 on:** November 14, 2011, 04:27:41 pm »

Thank you Bryanhoop. I have got hubbys side working again. Initially I was try to get HD audio from my ripped blurays but my sound card is not good enough to use and so we are back with the spdif output for now. I guess the only option is to look for a better receiver.

craigmcg · « **Reply #32 on:** November 14, 2011, 05:36:16 pm »

If you upgrade your receiver it will almost certainly have HDMI connectivity which supports both high def audio and video using one cable. This is the good news; the bad news is that the quick Google I just did indicates that your current video card won't send audio unless it is "fed" by a SPDIF, which as you know doesn't support high def audio.

Assuming that this information is correct, I think that if you want to have high def audio and video, you will need to upgrade both your receiver and your PC parts so that you can use HDMI.

maid · « **Reply #33 on:** November 14, 2011, 05:44:31 pm »

Thank you so much for that. This is what i suspected is it just the video card that we need to upgade in the HTPC and what would you recommend.

craigmcg · « **Reply #34 on:** November 14, 2011, 06:10:36 pm »

I would definitely get a second opinion on this question as I use a high quality sound card with analog sound outputs to older power amps. I just couldn't justify the cost of upgrading the audio system to allow me to use HDMI digital connection (that and the fact that my wife would have killed me if I had even suggested it).

I have ATI/AMD HDMI video cards in two of my PCs that according to ASUS support both audio and video. I know that there is a Realtek audio driver for the audio portion and an ATI driver for the video. I can't speak to the audio quality (I assume it would be fine since the DAC (digital to analog conversion) would be done by your new receiver) but I have no complaints about the video quality.

I see two options for a potential upgrade for you assuming that, aside from this, you are happy with your current PC:

1) cheaper- buy a high quality soundcard and send the audio to your existing receiver's 6 channel input using analog cables.
2) more expensive- upgrade the receiver and the video card/motherboard to use HDMI

Do you have a friend/PC shop contact that might let you borrow/try a better soundcard to see if that is a big enough improvement?

I would start with the soundcard option due to the lower cost (and if you still want to upgrade afterwards it could be used for a separate zone in MC or be sold.)

JimH · « **Reply #35 on:** November 14, 2011, 06:29:52 pm »

If you use HDMI to send audio to an external device, there is no advantage to changing the sound card. The HDMI connection passes a digital stream that the external device decodes. If it gets there, you're good.

maid · « **Reply #36 on:** November 14, 2011, 07:39:29 pm »

Still need a new sound card as mine does not have HDMI

BryanC · « **Reply #37 on:** November 14, 2011, 08:04:34 pm »

Quote from: maid on November 14, 2011, 04:27:41 pm

Initially I was try to get HD audio from my ripped blurays but my sound card is not good enough to use and so we are back with the spdif output for now.

What do you mean by "not good enough to use?" Were you having interference issues, or...?

maid · « **Reply #38 on:** November 14, 2011, 08:08:44 pm »

I have sorted out the issues mostly. Just wanted to get HD sound from my bluray rips

craigmcg · « **Reply #39 on:** November 14, 2011, 08:16:18 pm »

I forgot to ask if you and your husband are happy with the sound of cds/dvds playing on your current setup? If not, a sound system (better receiver or better speakers) and HDMI video card upgrade might be advisable.

If you are both content with sound system itself, the sound card would be more cost effective. I have and enjoy the Auzentech X-Meridian in my setup; the Asus Xonar HDAV is also highly regarded. I have also heard some good things about Creative's X-Fi series of sound cards (but also some bad).

maid · « **Reply #40 on:** November 14, 2011, 08:21:32 pm »

I am a little confused here If we get a new receiver with HDMI do I not need a sound card with HDMI not video card? Our video card has DVI to HDMI to the TV.

DarkPenguin · « **Reply #41 on:** November 14, 2011, 08:29:10 pm »

Quote from: maid on November 14, 2011, 08:21:32 pm

I am a little confused here If we get a new receiver with HDMI do I not need a sound card with HDMI not video card? Our video card has DVI to HDMI to the TV.

I haven't been paying that much attention but the HDMI connection will be on the video card. Cards like my ATI have a sound card on board. This makes sense since audio and video both run down the HDMI cable. So one stop shopping for video/audio. I don't know if that is true for all video cards. I think with some of the older Nvidia products you had to somehow join them to a discrete sound card. (But once you did sound and video would use the same HDMI cable.)

No idea if that help or obfuscated things.

craigmcg · « **Reply #42 on:** November 14, 2011, 08:43:47 pm »

I agree that it is confusing that in order to improve your digital sound, you need a video card to get HDMI. By the way, you would connect a new HDMI based system starting from the PC > Receiver > TV.

As mentioned earlier, if your current video card had built in sound (Google doesn't think it does), you would only need a new receiver. The Googling I did said that your video card has an SPDIF audio input (which doesn't support the high def audio you want), even though the connection from there on is by HDMI.

fitbrit · « **Reply #43 on:** November 14, 2011, 08:47:50 pm »

Maid, I think I can guarantee that if you get an nVidia GTS450 or GT440 (at the least) video card, you and your husband will be happy. The card's HDMI can pass on decoded LPCM as well as bitstreamed HD audio to an HDMI receiver. There is no need to spend money on a sound card. You can let your new receiver do the digital to analogue conversion and even decode the HD audio too if you want. Also, using an nVidia card, as you do now, Red October HQ will run very well, using the video card's hardware as much as possible.

The only caveat to all this is that there will be some spending to do to get the receiver and the video card. You may not, like I said in my first post, notice a night and day difference in the sound quality between regular DTS and lossless DTS-HD MA. It'll also mean that your rips/downloads will be many gigabytes bigger. I do notice a difference, and I much prefer the HD audio, but if I had to I could still live with regular DTS or AC3

craigmcg · « **Reply #44 on:** November 14, 2011, 08:55:41 pm »

Just to clarify-

I did not intend to suggest the purchase of a new sound card AND a video card/receiver upgrade.

I meant to suggest either the purchase of a new sound card (using high def analog output to the current receiver) OR a video card/receiver upgrade (to use HDMI digital output).

maid · « **Reply #45 on:** November 14, 2011, 08:57:25 pm »

yes I do understand now and I thank you all for the input.

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Author Topic: Best output with MC (Read 10036 times)