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[Mishamag]

I don't disagree.  However, it's been made pretty obvious in that thread that many of the XMBC or MP users don't really know what JRiver offers, or how it can be made comparable/better to many things their free software does.  Their unwillingness to dig deeper is not helped by the unimpressive JRiver sales portal/website and the $50 up front cost; based on MANY comments I've read on MANY forums.

I agree with everything you say. The problem is it's very, very difficult to actually tell people what makes MC "better" than the freebies. As you said it takes "dedication to really get it." I would add here that one thing that's irked me from the day I downloaded the trial was the quality of the wiki. I won't critique it here except to say that I found it at times useless and almost always frustrating. If I was just somebody "passing by" and trying this product because I saw it mentioned on a forum I probably would've dumped it after trying it for a couple of hours. The only reason I stuck with it is I knew it could do what I wanted to do.

IMHO what JRiver needs to do is help people "get it." They do reach a segment of the market that I'd call sophisticated users but not the masses. To reach out to the masses a few things that would help are:
        1) A well written Quick Start guide for Dummies and I mean dummies.
        2) A professionally done wiki/manual.
        3) On the homepage a flashy video showing what differentiates MC from the freebies.

When I started with MC I knew what I wanted to do with it very specifically (enhance my tags and create very specific views for my large classical collection) so I was able to hone in on what I needed to learn fairly quickly. I've been frustrated though when I step outside of this realm and have to learn how to do different things. It's probably just a function of the infinite flexibility of the software, but I can well imagine it's just too overwhelming for many novice users and they just go back to what they're comfortable with. I'd be very curious what the conversion rate is on free downloaders to purchasers.

I think it's safe to say that MC has a steep learning curve, especially when you want to start taking advantage of its flexibility. For most of us, we need somebody to lead us through this by hand or we just give up. A really well written wiki would certainly help in this regard. The forums are good, but it would just be easier to refer to a wiki than search the forums.

When people come to the website to see what all the MC hype is about you really don't get a sense that it's anything special and you certainly aren't exposed to why we advocates of JRiver celebrate it. A two minute video that actually shows what is special about the software might just do the trick. 

Anyway, that's all.

[JustinChase]

IMHO what JRiver needs to do is help people "get it." ...
        3) On the homepage a flashy video showing what differentiates MC from the freebies.

I couldn't agree more.  If you WANT to learn, there are many tools to help.  If you just come to the homepage because someone said JRiver is great, you will likely leave disappointed/confused/unsure of the possibilities/greatness.

I posted this when the topic of a new homepage was being discussed, but no one ever commented.  I assume either no one liked the idea, or it didn't make any sense.

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=67009.msg449434#msg449434

I still think it's a great idea.  Basically, the JRiver homepage should look and act like Theater View, and 'browsing' around in this interface shows them how great it can be, and each time they click to a new area, they are shown more of that it can do.  Oh well, I was dedicated/smart enough to stick around long ago, and I'm happy I did

Sorry, I think I may have steered us off of the original topic 

[Castius]

To be honest.  I pass up JRiver a few times because i thought it was a scam. Or at the very least a dead product.

[flac.rules]

Yeah, I donīt have a solution, but the curve to get in to MC is a bit steep. It costs money, and it takes some times to appreciate the program and its features. I can understand why people wonīt do it. Its not that tempting to invest a quite a lot of time to get to learn a program which costs money, and you might not even like. Maybe the suggested feature video could be a good trick? But what is the key features to showcase? And a good wiki also would help.

[Castius]

Another important aspect of MC is how responsive it and how it feels, spasificly with a mouse.
All the others all left mouse interation as a secondary feature.
This not something you can exspress quickly and easily.

[chinchin]

To be honest.  I pass up JRiver a few times because i thought it was a scam. Or at the very least a dead product.

I had a long, good look at it too. The main page is very simplistic. However, a very short excursion on to the forums showed that this is a company totally committed to their product and that passion & sound engineering is driving the product forward. I'll take this over "product bling" any day of the week. But yes, initially I had my doubts too.

A more aggressive marketing schema may sell more products - but I', not sure that this is the demographic they are after. I think the users that understand and value the depth of the product will stay here for a long time. And with the rapid development that is happening, how could a wiki ever be up-to-date?

[)p(]

Another important aspect of MC is how responsive it and how it feels, spasificly with a mouse.
All the others all left mouse interation as a secondary feature.
This not something you can exspress quickly and easily.

Same for scrolling in theater view...the smooth accelerated scrolling of the tiled and lineup views are a thing of beauty, even with very large lists. It might seem a detail, but for me it makes the gui feel so much better than xmbc and the like.

[NickF]

Some great ideas here.  A step change in marketing is needed.  I'm not sure that the technical wizards and enthusiasts of JRiver we know and love are the right people to do this.

On selling points, I came to JRiver for a music player.  As well as being the audiophile's music player, its remote controllability sold it to me.  The excellent web server with WebRemote, Gizmo etc make it perfect.  With an iPhone, iPad or any device with a browser, you can browse and play your music collection.  You never need to touch a computer keyboard or mouse or see the display.  Brilliant!

Nick.

[JimH]

If you like WebRemote, you might take a look at its new replacement, WebGizmo.

[CountryBumkin]

Over on the AVS forum there are "pinned threads" with titles like "how to build an HTPC". Why not put up a pinned thread here with a "guide for dummies" as mentioned earlier.
Not problems or troubleshooting stuff allowed - just how to get things running, tips, tricks, and hints. Members could contribute to the thread but the fist couple of pages/posts should be a step-by-step guide on the basics to get everything up and running (in a sequential order).

I know this forum works well and questions do get answered very quickly, but the answers get buried quickly and the next "new user" has to ask the same questions again.

[JimH]

It's a good idea.  Thanks.  Bob Sorel, one of the mods there, said he would do it if someone wrote it.  Greeneyez said he would, but it's not done yet.

Can you outline the first few steps?

[locust]

Perhaps an ad based version would allow many people to test out J River for longer than the 30 day trial - J River would get some extra revenue. Many new people wouldn't feel rushed by the 30 day limit and users of other programs would slowly find out what make mc better than the rest..

To be honest it took me longer than 30 days to appreciate what mc can do, and I still am getting new appreciations every day by something new..

Potentially some would stick with the ad version but if it were me, I probably show the same behaviour for any ad based android app I like, I buy it to get rid of the ads.

I think an ad based version could open up a larger user base because there are plenty of people who just never buy software, with ads you could still get some influx of cash from those people who otherwise would simply stick with the crappier alternatives to mc..

[JustinChase]

I think a guided "walk-thru" (or "wizard") would/could step new users thru the basics of setup and configuration and help them see the potential.  It's so powerful and complicated that a newbie doesn't really even know where to start.

Helping them get it set up shows the potential, and lets them focus on their current needs/wants.

It would be a big undertaking to get this to be really useful, but I'm thinking along the lines of 'corporate training' modules type features.

"Importing files": To begin, click on "Tools > Import" then show them in a simple video, then wait for them to actually do it.

Next...

I REALLY don't want Matt et al working on this.  I think hiring a person/company that specializes in training would do it faster and better, and won't take away from developing the program.

Below is a video that kinda shows what I mean...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKvjeO93bvg

Again, not a simple task, but I think it would be VERY useful to new users.

[Castius]

I think a more flashy video with music that highlights a already setup environment.
That show what it can look like and how you interact with it.
Letting people know they can get all of there media on there phone is really important.
Gizmo is the only Media sharing app i know that lets you customize the way it's displayed. This is a huge feature.

Just highlight the really nice things. And hint at some of the cooler things this app is capable of.
Keep it short and get more people looking deeper into the software.

The website has two aspects right now.
Pictures of some stuff and then a bunch of scatted tech bits. Some old some new.
I know it's just recently improved. but it's still got some ways to go.

Also as a side note Boxee just announced it's dropping PC support.
Jump on that and let the PC users know where they should start looking.

[NickF]

If you like WebRemote, you might take a look at its new replacement, WebGizmo.

Jim, thanks for the pointer.  Unfortunately, the instructions given don't work!  It's a little sad that this turns out to be an example of what is being discussed here.  On the WebGizmo page referenced, the instructions call up a web page that has existed on the server or Default folder for some time and doesn't include WebGizmo as a menu option.  Only by searching around did I find how to call it.  So, once again, a beginner would be lost and disappointed.  The relevant web page (Titled Library Server) on the server needs to be rewritten or replaced with what was intended.

Nick.

[flac.rules]

On the other hand, just delivering a good experience is also important, the word of mouth is important. Also I know fom own personal experience that a bit of bling actually helps. If the program looks nice its more tempting too try it out for a bit, so I do think a smoother theatre view look might also help a bit, however I donīt know if I am a represenative potential customer.

[JimH]

Jim, thanks for the pointer.  Unfortunately, the instructions given don't work!  It's a little sad that this turns out to be an example of what is being discussed here.  On the WebGizmo page referenced, the instructions call up a web page that has existed on the server or Default folder for some time and doesn't include WebGizmo as a menu option.  Only by searching around did I find how to call it.  So, once again, a beginner would be lost and disappointed.  The relevant web page (Titled Library Server) on the server needs to be rewritten or replaced with what was intended.

Nick.

If WebGizmo isn't there, your version isn't new enough.  17.0.62 is on the MC17 board and 17.0.64 is available here:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=68990.0

[CountryBumkin]

It's a good idea.  Thanks.  Bob Sorel, one of the mods there, said he would do it if someone wrote it.  Greeneyez said he would, but it's not done yet.

Can you outline the first few steps?

My suggestion for an installation/setup guide would be to walk through the steps as a new user would see them covering the basics to get things running. Put in some basic/short descriptions of why/how things work.

However, I don't think I'm qualified to write this guide because I'm still learning the program and I don't know that my examples below are the best way (or even correct), but just as an example I would recommend something like this.

Part 1, Computer setup
1) MC organizes media types into three categories; Audio, Video, Images. Therefore User may want to set up three root folders and store media as subfolders to these root folders (i.e. Computer\Video\Movies\  and Computer\Audio\Albums and Computer\Images\Photos) and so on.

2) Create a new Folder for Cover Art in a location where Windows backup will automatically back it up (such as a subfolder under "My Documents")

3) Run the MC install program. Select "Express install" (MC setup will be done in Part 2).

After MC installs it will open to "Standard View" this is where all file maintance and setup is performed.

Part 2, Basic Setup
4) Go to Tools>Options. Click on "File Locations" on the left taskbar. Click on the "..." button next to each Media type and browse to the folder where you media is stored. Do this for each medai type.
5) Go to "File Types" in the left taskbar. Select each type of media file you use. Leave settings at "Automatic".

---- Do this for all the settings needed to get things running. Maybe break it up into various parts (Video setup, Audio setup, TV setup, etc.) and have each part as a separate page so page one could have a table of contents link.  This is the way some of the guides are done over at AVS forum and I think the structure is vey useful.

I could write something like this for all the steps - but I'm afraid you would spend more time correcting my mistakes than if JRiver staff just wrote the guide themselves.

[nonsub]

Jim, thanks for the pointer.  Unfortunately, the instructions given don't work!  It's a little sad that this turns out to be an example of what is being discussed here.  On the WebGizmo page referenced, the instructions call up a web page that has existed on the server or Default folder for some time and doesn't include WebGizmo as a menu option.  Only by searching around did I find how to call it.  So, once again, a beginner would be lost and disappointed.  The relevant web page (Titled Library Server) on the server needs to be rewritten or replaced with what was intended.

Nick.

What appears to be being discussed here are ideas for possibly appealing to a larger consumer segment by somehow making a highly advanced interface with a learning curve "simpler" to "get" for the average user. On the other hand, what you are complaining about is documentation/info regarding BETA software. I think if a beginner or someone who isn't familiar with the concept of BETA sticks to the area most appropriate (ie. non Beta) they will find the existing documentation and support excellent.

[JimH]

I tuned up the WebGizmo instructions, but I still don't understand how Nick got to the Library Server page.  Was there a link somewhere?

[MrHaugen]

I think a video showcase of different parts of MC would be the best way of showing people what MC really can do. It's also important that it's made by people that know how the specific parts works as well. Not people explaining in depth of how it works, but a quick demonstration of what this beauty can do.

[NickF]

I tuned up the WebGizmo instructions, but I still don't understand how Nick got to the Library Server page.  Was there a link somewhere?

Jim, your link above took me to the WebGizmo instructions.  Following those takes you to the Library Server page.  I see you have changed the instructions today.  They now show a picture of Library Server page which now shows WebGizmo which is helpful.  I have the latest release of MC17.  I assume this new Library Server page will appear in the next release.  Thanks.

Nick.

[JimH]

Nick,
That is from build 64.  It's at the top of this board.

[lbstyling]

I REALLY don't want Matt et al working on this.  I think hiring a person/company that specializes in training would do it faster and better, and won't take away from developing the program.

Below is a video that kinda shows what I mean...

Now that kind of honest thinking is what makes you lot so good!

[NickF]

Nick,
That is from build 64.  It's at the top of this board.

Thanks Jim.  Was on 62, now on 64 and all works fine.

Sorry to divert the thread but I still think controllability is an important selling point.

Nick.

[NickF]

Videos are a good approach but do need to be done professionally.  They need to be structured, a set, each having a very specific purpose.  There is the challenge of on-boarding new users to get them to commit to even trying the product.  The video needs clear and crisp messages which sell JRiver features and ethos.  This shouldn't make comparisons with other products but sell on strengths.  It needs to be exciting and compelling.  If the user hits stop before the end, you failed!!

Then you need the training videos, topic based and layered.  Don't bury the user in detail at the outset but allow them to drill down where necessary.  Make appropriate assumptions of level of knowledge at each stage.  Use clear language which relates directly to what you see in the product. 

Nick.

[Bizarroterl]

It seems to me that 2 things are needed.  One is for sales (the main site) and the other is for helping users get started.  Both need to focus on the different user experiences - Home Theater, Desktop, remote device, etc.  When I 1st considered trying MC my 1st action was to try and find a decent video showing the area I was interested in, the Theater view.  I wasn't able to find one.

For sales create some videos showing the product in use - with the sole purpose of showing potential users how MC can make their AV experience the best.  Don't try and show them how to set it up, just wow them with the experience.  And don't go overboard.  Too many demo videos go too fast and cover too much.

For training/setup why not just use wizards?  A guided install is the best method when dealing with the casual/uninitiated user.  No need to search through forums or wikis looking for the "answer".  Just select the correct wizard from the wizards menu and you're guided through the setup.  All the fine tuning can be done as it is now.

I'm not a user of MC.  Why?  I haven't been able to get a usable Theater View setup yet.  I'm sure I could do it.  I just don't have the time to chase down the zillion little things I need to get there.  So I stay with my XBMC installations. 

Want to sell me a copy?  Show me how great MC can be in videos.  Then let me try it for a month for free (already done).  Then make it easy for me to get a working install.

[JimH]

I'm not a user of MC.  Why?  I haven't been able to get a usable Theater View setup yet.  I'm sure I could do it.  I just don't have the time to chase down the zillion little things I need to get there.  So I stay with my XBMC installations. 

It wouldn't take long for you to see for yourself.  It's not nearly that complicated to set up.

http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Getting_Started

[paul.raulerson]

My $0.02 --

MC is big. Way big... with quite literally, thousands of options. It can be confusing and frustrating, for anyone.

First, the cost is a non issue. $50 is pretty much beer money for anyone with a stereo and video system capable of showing what MC can really do.

One thing is to produce some really top quality music off some really modest hardware. And with carefully chosen and dedicated hardware, it can produce music competitive with pretty much any digital source out there, and at a competitive price.

I would suggest that you consider breaking the program up into chunks. Have the UI as the base, and add modules as desired. Though that could cause hue and cry about the cost going up a little, it will also increase the perceived value, as someone wanting only to play music has to deal only with the music configuration, video with video, streaming with streaming, DLNA with DLNA, etc.  

It doesn't matter to me if you charge for each module or not, but allowing the user to install just the hunks that he or she wants, and polishing the configuration for each section is something that might increase sales and penetration into the high end market.

I mean, it is cool to have a thousand options to play with, but when you want to play music or a video, you don't want that kind of confusion.

Also, I would go find the guy that wrote JRemote and hire him. It is quite competitive with the better remote interfaces out there, and the one thing that I have always felt MC was missing. YMMV, etc.

-Paul

[fitbrit]

Next...

I REALLY don't want Matt et al working on this.  I think hiring a person/company that specializes in training would do it faster and better, and won't take away from developing the program.

I have to agree here. I am a HUGE fan of the current team and everything they do for MC and us. However, I think the marketing to new users really needs to come from someone who is further removed from the final product. It's very difficult to see the need for a new feature, for example, unless you personally need it yourself too. It's amazing that Matt et al have given us so much that they initially didn't see a need for, or even flat out refused to do.

[nwboater]

My $0.02 --

MC is big. Way big... with quite literally, thousands of options. It can be confusing and frustrating, for anyone.

First, the cost is a non issue. $50 is pretty much beer money for anyone with a stereo and video system capable of showing what MC can really do.

One thing is to produce some really top quality music off some really modest hardware. And with carefully chosen and dedicated hardware, it can produce music competitive with pretty much any digital source out there, and at a competitive price.

I would suggest that you consider breaking the program up into chunks. Have the UI as the base, and add modules as desired. Though that could cause hue and cry about the cost going up a little, it will also increase the perceived value, as someone wanting only to play music has to deal only with the music configuration, video with video, streaming with streaming, DLNA with DLNA, etc.  

It doesn't matter to me if you charge for each module or not, but allowing the user to install just the hunks that he or she wants, and polishing the configuration for each section is something that might increase sales and penetration into the high end market.

I mean, it is cool to have a thousand options to play with, but when you want to play music or a video, you don't want that kind of confusion.

Also, I would go find the guy that wrote JRemote and hire him. It is quite competitive with the better remote interfaces out there, and the one thing that I have always felt MC was missing. YMMV, etc.

-Paul

I started using MC a few years ago. I was using it only for audio, and was using SageTV for TV and other Video Playback. As JRiver kept improving the video experience in MC I gradually started trying out video, then TV. I have recently stopped using Sage and use MC17 for everything.

A few points about your modular approach from my perspective:

1. If I had to buy a Video module to play DVDs I probably would have done it much later, if at all.

2. Same as above for a TV module.

3. I think it would be very difficult for JRiver to split out various features into modules. There is so much that is inter-related in the program that it would probably be an enormous development project. I would rather see that time go to the continuing improvement of the program.

4. Even if you only use MC for Audio the cost is really quite low when you consider what you get and the ongoing development that you get. It's $50 to get started and then about $26 a year for upgrades (I think even less if you buy the upgrade right away). That's about $2.17/month. Quite a value IMHO!

5. I know there are lot of options, but I find it hard to believe they number in the thousands. And for a typical user very few of them need to be used. The defaults do a lot. But there is incredible flexibility and power in the program for those that want to use it.

When I first started using MC I was a bit intimidated as I think many are. But I'm very glad now that I stuck through the learning curve. (Actually that's still happening as I discover neat new things the program can do.) I do think that more effort by JRiver to provide better documentation and or video training for new users would be a huge help. I think some of those things are being considered.

Rod