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[TMA-1]

Im tagging my movies with genre and discovered that "Drama; Thriller" is considered as one genre and not two genres. When I select "Drama", movies with for example "Drama; Thriller" is not included.
Is there a way to tag movies with multiple genres?

[wig]

Im tagging my movies with genre and discovered that "Drama; Thriller" is considered as one genre and not two genres. When I select "Drama", movies with for example "Drama; Thriller" is not included.
Is there a way to tag movies with multiple genres?

Not using the actual Genre field. But you could create a custom field (call it Movie Genre, for example) set it up to accept multiple entries. Then customize Theater View to use that field to navigate your movies.

Its' pretty simple to do. You could even use the existing Keywords field to experiment; it supports multiple entries AND nested entries, so you could put Horror\Slasher as entry, for example.

[TMA-1]

But you could create a custom field (call it Movie Genre, for example) set it up to accept multiple entries. Then customize Theater View to use that field to navigate your movies.

That sounds great. I tried to add a field to a view but I didn't find where to add any custom field. Could you please point me to the right direction?

[MrHaugen]

This got me thinking of why the Auto or manual Scraping tool does not contain Genre or Genres. This is something that I really value for my movies, and would make picking out the correct title much easier. Can you consider adding this from theMovieDB. They have rather good Genres info.

[TMA-1]

It seems like the autotagging is adding keywords so its rather strange that genre is excluded, but then again if MC concatinates multiple genres in to one and also sees "Drama; Comedy" and "Comedy; Drama" as two seperates genres I guess it doesn't matter. I think a custom field accepting multiple entries (as wig suggested) would do a better job.

*still in search of where/how to add custom fields*

[glynor]

*still in search of where/how to add custom fields*

Tools -> Options -> Library & Folders -> Manage Library Fields

It seems like the autotagging is adding keywords so its rather strange that genre is excluded, but then again if MC concatinates multiple genres in to one and also sees "Drama; Comedy" and "Comedy; Drama" as two seperates genres I guess it doesn't matter.

That's why it uses the [Keywords] tag, because Genre is a string-type field, and Keywords is a list-type field.  List type fields work the way you want this to, so it might be easiest just to use the default Keywords field, if your goal is to fill it with metadata from TMDb.

If your goal is to fill the tags manually from another data source that MC doesn't work with, then you'll probably get the best results making a custom field of some kind and using that (because otherwise, every new auto-import will add new Keywords it pulls from TMDb to your library).

[TMA-1]

Tools -> Options -> Library & Folders -> Manage Library Fields

SupahThanks!

[MrC]

Learn more about File properties & tags:

http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/File_Properties_%28tags%29

[rick.ca]

That's why it uses the [Keywords] tag, because Genre is a string-type field, and Keywords is a list-type field.

I don't think so. Keywords from TMDb are "Plot Keywords" and have nothing to do with Genres. Like most movie information sources, TMDb assigns whatever genres are applicable (of a fixed set) to a movie. I suppose the developers may have decided not to get Genres because the existing [Genre] is a string field, but that doesn't explain why they haven't just provided and used a standard [Genres] list field from day one. That would, of course, still handle a single-term genre for those who choose to ignore conventions.

Even if a list-type Genres field were used, this remains an example of a significant flaw in the current approach. Although the practice of assigning multiple genres is fairly standard, there is no standard set of genres to use, and the terms are assigned according to the judgment of whoever is doing so (i.e., I don't believe the producers are deciding what genres apply to their movie). So, according to IMDb, The Godfather is Drama-Crime. According to TMDb, it's Action-Crime-Drama-Thriller. Even though the two sources seem to be using the same set of terms, the results are quite different.

What this suggests is the need for a system that doesn't indiscriminately mix dissimilar data from different sources. If 90% of such data can be provided from one primary source, we're not going to notice any inconsistency by using a secondary source to provide the remaining 10%. But that requires the ability to configure the secondary source not to overwrite the primary. In a more extreme situation, we may want to separate the data by source. That is, to map the data element from each source to separate fields of our choosing. If we wish to combine them, we can do so when configuring our views.

If your goal is to fill the tags manually from another data source that MC doesn't work with, then you'll probably get the best results making a custom field of some kind and using that (because otherwise, every new auto-import will add new Keywords it pulls from TMDb to your library).

This is just another unfortunate result of the same problem. It's perfectly reasonable for a user to make their own use of a [Keywords]—as they might with any other media type. It really should be off-limits for saving meta data from external sources. The solution is the same—save the data in fields designated for the source, and make the mapping configurable so the user can change it to suit their needs (e.g., changing [Keywords.TMDb] to [Keywords], if that happens to suit them).

[MrHaugen]

I need genre. Where ever it's downloaded from. I don't care if the sources miss a genre or have one to many. It gives a good indication of the content of the movie anyway. Of course, I agree with you Rick when it comes to the fact we need more control. And I'm 100% on board with your vision. But I don't know how realistic it is to wish for it right now.... A good default that works for most people would be something to expect though.

The basics a scraper needs to get is in my opinion:
- Description
- Year
- Rating/Score
- Genre(s)
- Keywords

This is also something that I have a strong feeling that also the average user expects. Two of this is missing today, and the keywords fetched is just not good, which makes the current setup of the scraper less than ideal. Don't get me wrong. It's a huge step forward for MC, but it's still a way to go before people stop bugging you with requests and complaints 

[TMA-1]

Is there a reason the genre field is not a list type of field just like keywords from the beginning?

[glynor]

I suppose the developers may have decided not to get Genres because the existing [Genre] is a string field, but that doesn't explain why they haven't just provided and used a standard [Genres] list field from day one. That would, of course, still handle a single-term genre for those who choose to ignore conventions.

I can't speak to why they decided not to include a list-type field called "Genre", but if they changed the existing [Genre] field to a list-type field it would annoy me (personally).  Tagging files in a List-Type field is annoying and much slower than a standard string-type field, if you do want [Genre] to only ever contain one "thing" at a time, and if you want to keep that total list "clean".

I, personally, do not want my music to fall into more than one "Genre" ever.  While music can certainly "cross boundaries" of genres, organizing it like that makes it very difficult to stay on top of the system (as an "admin") which then leads to inconsistent organization and can make it troublesome to find things reliably.  When you want a list-type field to be treated this way in MC, then tagging doesn't work as cleanly (you have to remember to uncheck the other boxes in the panes when you retag something via the panes, and you have to deal with the list-type field tag window in the Tag AW).  Historically, this is how MC has always worked, and there is a "weight" to an existing workflow.  Even if it isn't "perfect" or "ideal", there are certainly lots of existing users (like me) who rely on [Genre] being a string-type field.  Changing this would annoy as many (or more) users than it would help.

On the other hand, I don't mind if my movies fall into more than one "genre" (a movie can be both a horror movie and a thriller).  So, for those kinds of files, I just use the [Keywords] field to serve the same purpose.  Now, I'm really not picky about my movie genres.  I just let it grab whatever it wants, and I don't use them very much.  If I did really want to use them extensively, then the auto-filled Keywords field would not really serve my purposes well (which is why I suggested a custom field to the OP).

You are absolutely right that the mapping JRiver is using from TMDb isn't ideal in the case of [Keywords].  I'd suggest that they map the "Genre" field on TMDb to [Keywords] instead of the (much less useful except for search on the site) Plot Keywords field they are mapping there now.

Because it is currently bad doesn't mean we can't come up with a better suggestion and have them implement it.  As Jim said, advanced cloud metadata field remapping isn't in the cards for this version, but maybe in the future.  That means, for now, our best bet is to get them to assign more sane defaults.

[MrHaugen]

Is there a reason the genre field is not a list type of field just like keywords from the beginning?

As others have mentioned in other threads, it's perfectly possible to create expressions and theater views to enable you to select one and one genre, and the result will include every movie with that genre. So, I do not see as negatively on the field it self.

I agree with Glynor when it comes to music. Including several genres here is a no no. When it comes to movies the biggest problem is that the automatic or manual scraper does not include Genres at all. And as Glynor mentions, the Keywords gotten from TMDB is not useful at all. I would not be totally against mapping TMDB Genres to Keywords, but I do not believe this is the best solution. People using keywords might get really mad. Even though I don't use Keywords yet, I might use it if the source was a different one.

The only thing that would not make users angry, upset or left screaming for changes for a long time, would be to get Genres from TMDB to the Genres field, and then Keywords to the Keywords field, but from another source.

[glynor]

The only thing that would not make users angry, upset or left screaming for changes for a long time, would be to get Genres from TMDB to the Genres field, and then Keywords to the Keywords field, but from another source.

But they can't do that because the existing [Genre] field is a string-type field, which you certainly don't want filled with a bunch of semicolon delimited strings.

The only choices would be for them to:

1. Make a new stock list-type field specifically for Movie Genres and fill that with the contents of genre on TMDb.
2. Use one of the existing list-type fields as a stand-in.

I'm suggesting #2 and using [Keywords].  The only people this would "mess up" would be people who have an existing structure of meticulously-maintained [Keywords] that they use for movies.  This change would NOT impact you if you just use Keywords for image files, which is probably most people I'd guess.  If you are already using Keywords for movies, and you don't want it auto-filled with the data on TMDb, well, then... Yes, you'd have to fix it yourself.  But this is probably a pretty edge-case, and it would be simple for those few people to work around it.

You'd just have to switch your views to use a custom field instead of [Keywords] and then move/copy your existing Keywords over to that new custom field.  Yet another reason it would be good to be able to "protect" certain fields from Cloud Metadata writing.  Then you wouldn't have to switch at all, you could just Protect that field and go on with your life.

In any case, I'd say do the least amount of harm to the fewest number of users.  That, to me, seems to mean that you'd either map the TMDb genres field to [Keywords] in MC by default (easiest for most people, annoying for a few).  Alternatively, if you don't want to annoy anyone at all, you could go with option #1 above.  That would basically annoy no-one (unless they just happened to already have a custom field with the exact same name as what JRiver picked for this new stock field, and that would just be unlucky).  The downside to option #1 is that anyone who wants to take advantage of this new system would HAVE TO create new custom views in their Library.

That's a big deal because it means most users won't ever discover that MC is actually automatically-retrieving useful "genre" metadata from TMDb, since it wouldn't show up in their existing views anywhere.  JRiver could add this new field to the default views included in a new, blank, Library of course, but the only way to get this new "pane" into an existing library is to reset the whole thing or to add it manually, neither of which is a particularly pleasant proposition for most people.

That's why I'd suggest using [Keywords].  It isn't "perfect", but it is better than forcing everyone to reset their views or to manually modify them all to take advantage of the new system.

[JustinChase]

...in the case of [Keywords].  I'd suggest that they map the "Genre" field on TMDb to [Keywords] instead of the (much less useful except for search on the site) Plot Keywords field they are mapping there now.

This would make me very happy

[JustinChase]

...If you are already using Keywords for movies, and you don't want it auto-filled with the data on TMDb, well, then... Yes, you'd have to fix it yourself.  But this is probably a pretty edge-case, and it would be simple for those few people to work around it...

If [Keywords] = Blank/empty then they could be filled from Genre (as suggested above), but if they already have content, they should not be overwritten, which I think fixes the problem above.

I personally just select all keywords for Movies avery once-in-a-while and delete them all.  They are completely useless as they currently work.  WAAAAYYYYY too many stupid/meaningless keywords are downloaded.  I think I saw one for "Bed" the other day.  Really?!?!

[glynor]

If [Keywords] = Blank/empty then they could be filled from Genre (as suggested above), but if they already have content, they should not be overwritten, which I think fixes the problem above.

I agree that the fact that the Auto Metadata system doesn't fill fields that already have data solves the biggest issue with re-purposing an existing field.  For users that this change impacts negatively, it would not destroy any existing data.  However, to be fair, it could still negatively impact you and force you to switch to a different field, simply because the "Keyword list" (not ones that apply to any particular file, but the aggregate list from all of your files) would be filled over time with things you can't control.  I, personally, wouldn't care.  Whatever TMDb says a movie belongs to is probably good enough for me (which is to enable browsing by "genre" in Theater View).  I don't need it to be perfect and meticulously maintained.

However, if they implemented a similar auto-lookup system for music, it would annoy me.  I don't care what AMG or YADB says, I want The Decemberists filed under Indie and Aphex Twin filed under Drum and Bass, and I do not want 15 different genres for Rock (eg Rock, Rock & Roll, Rock and Roll, Rock 'n Roll, Rock 'n' Roll, etc).  I can imagine some people who are already using Keywords for their Movies (and assigning categories manually) would probably feel much the same way.

However... I think that re-purposing [Keywords] as a stand-in for TMDb's genres (especially since it already does automatically fill, it just points it at something basically useless in TMDb's data-set) would negatively impact a MUCH smaller contingent of JRiver's users than changing [Genre] would (which impacts music and other long-term uses of the tagging system).  Perhaps not though!  Thoughts?

Can someone point to a real person that (A) is not already screwed-up by the current behavior, and would be (B) more negatively affected by switching the mapping of [Keywords] from TMDb's Plot Keywords field to its Genre field?  The only people that would qualify, as far as I can tell, are people who think that TMDb's Plot Keywords are awesome and they really want them in MC's [Keywords] field.  If there is such a guy, I bet there's only one of him.

[MrHaugen]

But they can't do that because the existing [Genre] field is a string-type field, which you certainly don't want filled with a bunch of semicolon delimited strings.

Am I missing something here? Is there not 2 Genre fields in MC? "Genre" and "Genres"? I'm saying that Genres is the one to be used, as it can hold more than one Genre. Mixing up Genres in Keywords field would create a LOT of confusion. Peoples who are not involved in this discussion directly would be quite surprised. It's just not logical in any way. If "Genres" library field can not be used for some reason, then we need another Genre called "TMDB Genre" or similar.

Having basic functionality tagging fields with wrong data is never a good solution imo. Even if it's a quick fix. I don't want MC to ever go out of standard in this way, risking it to be less compatible to other apps and devices or unlogical for users to use.

[JustinChase]

However, if they implemented a similar auto-lookup system for music, it would annoy me. 

I completely agree.  I was only talking about Movies (and TV?).  Music should NOT be changed.

[glynor]

Am I missing something here? Is there not 2 Genre fields in MC? "Genre" and "Genres"?

There is NOT.

You must have added a custom field at some point.  There is no [Genres] field by default.  If they added one, it would work.  The problem with that, as I explained above, is that EVERY SINGLE PERSON who already has MC installed on their computers and would want to use the new auto-lookup system would need to either:

1. Reset all of their Library Views back to the defaults (egads!)
2. Manually modify their existing Library Views to include this new field as a Pane (or Theater View category) so that it could actually be used for browsing.

I understand that this is second-nature to you and me and rick and Justin, but it is a complete non-starter for most users who don't even know that you can modify the default views, much less how to do it.

I just disagree on this:

Having basic functionality tagging fields with wrong data is never a good solution imo. Even if it's a quick fix. I don't want MC to ever go out of standard in this way, risking it to be less compatible to other apps and devices or unlogical for users to use.

Who says using [Keywords] is wrong?!?

There ARE no standards for this.  Certainly none that are widely accepted and well-defined like there are for other media types.  Just because TMDb calls that "categorization" genres doesn't mean that MC has to... You could argue that [Keywords] is right and TMDb calling those Genres is wrong and be equally "correct".  With music and ID3 tagging, there is something of a "standard" (it is loose, and rarely followed well by all applications), but for movies there is basically nothing.  There is what the online databases decide to do, on their own, and that's pretty much it.

What is right is what works best for a particular use and application.  There is no fundamental "truth" when it comes to metadata.  That's why it is "meta".

[glynor]

I should add that the biggest problem with switching now is that we've had the Get Movie & TV Info dialog (though not on auto-pilot) for quite some time.  My [Keywords] field is already filled with essentially-useless Plot Keywords values for all of my existing files.  If they switched its behavior as Justin and I suggested above, that would "fix" files going forward, but to fix my existing stuff, I'd need to clear the Keywords field completely for every single one of my movies and then look them all up again.  That's what I'd do.

Another solution would be for JRiver to use a different field.  Like I said, I wouldn't cry if they went this route.  I'd just fix my views (and prepare a macro explanation for how to do this for other novice users who are going to all post on the forum about how to see those Genres).  The biggest downside to this is that [Keywords] is already used as a category in one of the default views for video.  This new hypothetical field, obviously, would not be.

Either way, I completely, absolutely, 100% agree with Rick and Justin (and everyone else, I suspect) that:

TMDb's Plot Keywords field is basically useless.  It would be much better if MC's Auto Metadata system were changed to pull TMDb's Genres field instead.  The details are up to Matt and Jim and everyone else at JRiver, so long as they don't mess with the built-in [Genre] field and make it list-type.

[MrHaugen]

Ah. I must have added this a long time ago then. But I still stand behind my opinion that such crossover usage of data and fields like genre to keywords should not happen.

I do understand that new users need to either reset the views or manually modify it in worst case. But that would short term trouble instead of a lifetime of pain. The users who like both genre and keywords would NEVER let this one go. There might not be a standard when it comes to videos and tagging, but I think everyone can agree somewhat that genre is something very different than keywords.

Theater Views have been reset before, it would not kill people to do it again. But I do not think that is something that HAVE to be done either way. If "Genres" was added as a standard field, you could just add a new Genre View in default views, and leave the other ones alone. It should not be impossible. Those how have modified their views and are interested in Genres would probably be up to the task and add another view.

Another solution would be for JRiver to use a different field.  Like I said, I wouldn't cry if they went this route.  I'd just fix my views (and prepare a macro explanation for how to do this for other novice users who are going to all post on the forum about how to see those Genres).  The biggest downside to this is that [Keywords] is already used as a category in one of the default views for video.  This new hypothetical field, obviously, would not be.

That would work for me and about all other users I think. I don't care what the actual field is called. But mixing potential data sources it not the best solution. Neither is resetting views for all users. But there should be ways around that.

[glynor]

If "Genres" was added as a standard field, you could just add a new Genre View in default views, and leave the other ones alone. It should not be impossible.

Unfortunately, I think the technical details of their system precludes this (based on what I've seen in previous versions).

If they want to change a default view, the only way to get it for existing users is to reset your whole Library.  Meaning, even if you NEVER touched your Video views (because you'd used MC just for audio all along), you can't get the benefit of the new default view without recreating it manually or resetting your whole Library back to the defaults.  So, all of your customized Audio views (which you may have done three years ago and not really remember how you did it now because you had forum help at the time to set it up) would be gone.

That's a non-starter for most users.  I think resetting just Theater View already once in MC17 was a HUGE hardship for existing customers.  This would require not resetting just Theater View, but also Standard View and the Gizmo/WebRemote views.  The whole thing would need to go back to defaults (or you'd have to build it manually).  Again, "build it manually" is not a big deal at all for us here discussing it.  However, I think the number of people this would impact would be way smaller than the eight guys who do want the useless Plot Keywords field filled from TMDb.  Keep in mind feature discoverability.  No one would know three months from now (when this thread is long-buried) that they NEED to reset their views or what to add to see this info.  There would be data in their Library, but none of their views would show it, it wouldn't be in their details columns anywhere, and it wouldn't show in the Tag AW.  How would they know to do this unless it worked with one of the default views?

Like I said though, either way would work for me.  I just think the existing Plot Keywords data is useless, and it seems I'm not alone.

[MrHaugen]

Like I said though, either way would work for me.  I just think the existing Plot Keywords data is useless, and it seems I'm not alone.

You're not alone. But we can't use a few answers here on Interact to base a decision of removing the keywords from movies. Some might be heavily dependent on this. They can have this data from a number of sources. I also think that the Keywords is crap, but that is because the source is crap. It the source was better, I might use it. And so would probably more people.

I do not disagree that resetting views automatically is a bad thing. But for most users, they will deal with this just fine I think. I think that those who have a real problem with this is the fewer power users like us that have many custom views.

I think the best way to deal with this is to add a Genres field and add new views to incorporate this ONLY if people choose to reset to default views. Those people who are really looking for Genre in Theater View or standard view will probably find the solution. Either by exploring the options or asking here on interact.

[bil1010105]

I agree that the fact that the Auto Metadata system doesn't fill fields that already have data solves the biggest issue with re-purposing an existing field.  For users that this change impacts negatively, it would not destroy any existing data.  However, to be fair, it could still negatively impact you and force you to switch to a different field, simply because the "Keyword list" (not ones that apply to any particular file, but the aggregate list from all of your files) would be filled over time with things you can't control.  I, personally, wouldn't care.  Whatever TMDb says a movie belongs to is probably good enough for me (which is to enable browsing by "genre" in Theater View).  I don't need it to be perfect and meticulously maintained.

However, if they implemented a similar auto-lookup system for music, it would annoy me.  I don't care what AMG or YADB says, I want The Decemberists filed under Indie and Aphex Twin filed under Drum and Bass, and I do not want 15 different genres for Rock (eg Rock, Rock & Roll, Rock and Roll, Rock 'n Roll, Rock 'n' Roll, etc).  I can imagine some people who are already using Keywords for their Movies (and assigning categories manually) would probably feel much the same way.

However... I think that re-purposing [Keywords] as a stand-in for TMDb's genres (especially since it already does automatically fill, it just points it at something basically useless in TMDb's data-set) would negatively impact a MUCH smaller contingent of JRiver's users than changing [Genre] would (which impacts music and other long-term uses of the tagging system).  Perhaps not though!  Thoughts?

Can someone point to a real person that (A) is not already screwed-up by the current behavior, and would be (B) more negatively affected by switching the mapping of [Keywords] from TMDb's Plot Keywords field to its Genre field?  The only people that would qualify, as far as I can tell, are people who think that TMDb's Plot Keywords are awesome and they really want them in MC's [Keywords] field.  If there is such a guy, I bet there's only one of him.

Maybe I'm that guy. 

I really really don't want Keywords messed with, under any circumstances. I use it as a substitute for "Genre" in videos, and use the fact that it has both list & hierarchical properties in Theatre View.

It's fine saying "Yeah, but if the field is blank it's okay to overwrite...". NO! No no no a thousand times NO. Blank Keywords appear in the "Unassigned" part of the view, which is just stuff I haven't assigned yet. If external sources are populating this without my knowledge or consent, it makes a complete mess of my carefully constructed hierarchical keyword structure.

I think we need a new field to map to... something entirely separate. If we had some control over where the data goes when it comes from TMDB, then that would be possible.

[glynor]

Maybe I'm that guy. 

The thing is, you're already screwed.  The [Keywords] tag is already broken for your purposes, because it is being filled with the Plot Keywords tag from TMDb.  The only people for whom adding a new field would help are people who like the Plot Keywords tags from TMDb.

That's the category of people I'm saying is almost certainly very small.  I'd be surprised if it is anyone at all.

In your situation, you can't turn on the Automatic Metadata system because it will fill your existing [Keywords] field up with all sorts of useless Plot Keywords from TMDb right now.  So, you already need to change something, and whether they add a [Movie Genre] tag, or re-use the existing [Keywords] tag doesn't matter.  Either way, you'll have to change something.

[Matt]

The thing is, you're already screwed.  The [Keywords] tag is already broken for your purposes, because it is being filled with the Plot Keywords tag from TMDb.  The only people for whom adding a new field would help are people who like the Plot Keywords tags from TMDb.

That's the category of people I'm saying is almost certainly very small.  I'd be surprised if it is anyone at all.

In your situation, you can't turn on the Automatic Metadata system because it will fill your existing [Keywords] field up with all sorts of useless Plot Keywords from TMDb right now.  So, you already need to change something, and whether they add a [Movie Genre] tag, or re-use the existing [Keywords] tag doesn't matter.  Either way, you'll have to change something.

Next build:
Changed: When looking up movie & TV information automatically as part of auto-import, fields with existing data will never be overwritten (manually running the tool will overwrite existing data).

As for what to use from TMDb, we use the <keywords> block if it's present in a getInfo call:
http://api.themoviedb.org/2.1/methods/Movie.getInfo

There's no standard for what Keywords should be for a movie, but I think using TMDb's list is better than no list at all.

[MrHaugen]

You're right that some info is better than nothing. But the keywords from TMDB is just so many, and so little thought is put behind it, that is it almost useless. Another source would probably be better. We would be a LOT better off if you could grab the Genre info. Much more people are used to genres.

As you can see, we've had our discussions and disagreements on that exact topic. I do not care that much how it's implemented, but I sure hope you will consider adding this. It should be easily available on TMDB. I'll leave it to your judgment to implement it in a good way, if you do consider it

[glynor]

As for what to use from TMDb, we use the <keywords> block if it's present in a getInfo call:
http://api.themoviedb.org/2.1/methods/Movie.getInfo

There's no standard for what Keywords should be for a movie, but I think using TMDb's list is better than no list at all.

I think what we are saying is that, if you are going to fill [Keywords] with anything from TMDb at all, it would be better to fill it with this section from their getInfo call:

Code: [Select]

<categories>
<category type="genre" name="Crime" url="http://themoviedb.org/genre/crime" id="80"/>
<category type="genre" name="Drama" url="http://themoviedb.org/genre/drama" id="18"/>
<category type="genre" name="Thriller" url="http://themoviedb.org/genre/thriller" id="53"/>
</categories>
The current behavior is to fill it with the Plot Keywords. Those Plot Keywords you're using now aren't even listed in that API document example results.  And, to put it bluntly, they stink.

I posted a more specific request encapsulating this here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=69413.0

Feel free to delete this new thread if you think this thread is still totally clear.  I was just trying to help make it easy.

[MrHaugen]

I think what we are saying is that, if you are going to fill [Keywords] with anything from TMDb at all, it would be better to fill it with this section from their getInfo call:

Code: [Select]

<categories>
<category type="genre" name="Crime" url="http://themoviedb.org/genre/crime" id="80"/>
<category type="genre" name="Drama" url="http://themoviedb.org/genre/drama" id="18"/>
<category type="genre" name="Thriller" url="http://themoviedb.org/genre/thriller" id="53"/>
</categories>

You and Justin are saying that Glynor Not everyone. Other people think Genres have nothing to do in a Keywords field and that there is a better long term solution to the problem.

[glynor]

You and Justin are saying that Glynor Not everyone. Other people think Genres have nothing to do in a Keywords field and that there is a better long term solution to the problem.

You are saying that they should keep filling [Keywords] with the Plot Keywords field from TMDb?  I doubt that.  Did you look at my other thread?

The word IF means IF.

[bil1010105]

The thing is, you're already screwed.  The [Keywords] tag is already broken for your purposes, because it is being filled with the Plot Keywords tag from TMDb.  The only people for whom adding a new field would help are people who like the Plot Keywords tags from TMDb.

Thing is, I don't mind getting data. Data is good. I've been desperately waiting for the auto-metadata scraping to appear in MC since I first started using it, way back in MC12. I just want to have some control over where it goes so it doesn't ride roughshod over my library without asking. Plot Keywords you say? Bring 'em on. Just please let me put them somewhere other than [Keywords].

My yukky solution for now, which it looks like I may have to keep judging by Matt's post, is to create a new [Keywords2] field, which has all the same properties as the existing [Keywords], adjust all my views to use the new field instead of [Keywords], and copy the contents of [Keywords] into [Keywords2] (that's about 8,000 fields spread over the network... might take a while).

Until then, I've turned the option off.

[JimH]

We're going to make a change here.

We'll pick up Genre, which we're not doing now.

We'll leave the plot keywords alone.

Will that work?

[bil1010105]

Works for me Jim. Cheers.  

Edit: are you saying you'll populate Keywords with Genre from TMDB?  ?

[JimH]

Genre from TMDB Genre

Keywords blank

[Matt]

Next build:
Changed: TMDb lookup gets genre for movies.

It'll get the first genre.  Switching genre (and artist) to a list may happen someday, but not today.

[MrHaugen]

We're going to make a change here.

We'll pick up Genre, which we're not doing now.

We'll leave the plot keywords alone.

Will that work?

Sounds great! If you do find another source for Keywords later, I think you can safely swap them though

*EDIT*
Oh. Only first Genre item. QQ

[glynor]

This works for me.  Better than nothing.

[bil1010105]

Sounds great. 

[glynor]

Genre from TMDB Genre

Keywords blank

I assume this is wrong.  Keywords won't be blank, they'll keep being filled as they are now, right?

[bil1010105]

I assume this is wrong.  Keywords won't be blank, they'll keep being filled as they are now, right?

I hope not. 

Seems like there's no "standard" way people have their libraries set up, and whatever JRiver do they're going to upset some people. I don't want Keywords changed, you want it filled with Plot Keywords/Genres/whatever, etc. One of us is going to be disappointed.

Maybe I'm jumping the gun here, but since this is new functionality in MC, wouldn't it make sense to populate everything into new "standard" fields (perhaps prefixed with TMDB, e.g. TMDBKeywords, TMDBGenres, etc) - that way people can choose to add them to their views or not, or copy them to other fields or not.

But crucially, it leaves the existing schemes well enough alone.

[glynor]

But crucially, it leaves the existing schemes well enough alone.

That was essentially rick's suggestion back when it was first implemented.

The problem is that no one but us power users would ever use the feature then.  For anyone with an existing Library, they'd have to know how to modify their existing views (or be willing to reset them to the defaults) to ever make use of such a feature.

One of the design goals of the system is that it must work out-of-the-box with existing default views.

I think you could do it that way, but it would require some fancy changes to the tagging system in MC (you'd have to be able to have a field type that pre-populates with the contents of another field, unless the field already has data).  They aren't willing to do that much work to make everyone happy, is basically the answer, I suppose.

Also, just to be clear:

you want it filled with Plot Keywords/Genres/whatever

To be clear, the [Keywords] tag is already, right now, being filled by things by MC.  Up until the current beta builds, you had to kick it off manually via the Get Info tool, but if you did so, the [Keywords] tag would get filled with the Plot Keywords field from TMDb.  This is already the case, and has been the case for a long time.  The only difference now is that it is going to happen automatically for new files unless you turn it off.

I actually do not want [Keywords] filled with anything in particular.  I just thought that since they are ALREADY being filled with something, just something dumb, it would be better to fill them with something useful for most people.

That's all.

This solution works for me because I was already NOT using [Genre] in my Video views.  This, actually, might be worse for some people than my proposal because it is now going to ALSO fill up your [Genre] tag in addition to [Keywords].

[fitbrit]

Next build:
Changed: TMDb lookup gets genre for movies.

It'll get the first genre.  Switching genre (and artist) to a list may happen someday, but not today.

I was so excited to try this, I forgot to wait for the "next build" first! I came here to post that it wasn't working... Doh!! In my defence, TMDB lookup hadn't been working
for about an hour, and then it suddenly was again. I figured that it might be due to changes you guys were making.
This is what happens when you go to sleep at 3:30 am and have a toddler wake you at 6:30.

[bil1010105]

To be clear, the [Keywords] tag is already, right now, being filled by things by MC.  Up until the current beta builds, you had to kick it off manually via the Get Info tool, but if you did so, the [Keywords] tag would get filled with the Plot Keywords field from TMDb.  This is already the case, and has been the case for a long time.  The only difference now is that it is going to happen automatically for new files unless you turn it off.

Well, if what Jim said can be taken literally (and I've yet to meet a non-literal American   ), it sounds like the [Keywords] field is going to be left alone in future - in both the manual & the auto scraping. That suits me right down to the ground, but I appreciate it's not what everyone wants - which is why I offered my humble suggestion as a solution.

IMO, the Plot Keywords from TMDB is only useful if you have some kind of "keyword cloud" control (which would be awesome) but MC doesn't currently support such a beast. Making the data in it somewhat redundant (and as you pointed out earlier, the data in it is often a load of rubbish). It just makes a mess for those (like me) who are using [Keywords] for another purpose & in a different way.

Filling empty Genres instead is a reasonable compromise to the differnt sides of the problem IMO. I'm looking forward to the next build now.  

[JustinChase]

Genre from TMDB Genre

Keywords blank

I assume this to mean that the Keywords field in MC will no longer be populated with the (useless) Keywords from TMDb.  If correct, THANK YOU!

As was suggested, using the Genres offered, as a list in the keywords might be "better", since it might be useful, but I'm happy either way, as long as the useless keywords stop being imported/updated.

As has been mentioned several times, this won't work for everyone, but this seems like a reasonable solution.

I think the only way to have a chance to make everyone happy would be a system that allows custom mapping of some sort, but I also understand that's not likely to happen anytime soon

As for having to take the entire library back to default to get new default views: it seems like an option could be added, similar to the option to add a default smartlist.  i.e. r-click on views => (New) whatever view, with the option to replace the existing one if you still have it, or add it as a new/separate view.  All of which could/should be done without erasing/changing any current views.

Anyway, thanks for listening and making what I see as a positive change

[glynor]

I assume this to mean that the Keywords field in MC will no longer be populated with the (useless) Keywords from TMDb.  If correct, THANK YOU!

My guess is that Jim was confused.  Maybe you're right.

If Jim wasn't confused, then this is fine.  Of course, it still doesn't get us multiple genres for movies.  But, it is better than nothing (and better than messing with the existing [Genre] field which was the main reason I came here to comment at all).

If Jim was confused, and the current behavior is going to continue (only [Genre] will now be filled if empty) this is also fine with me, but will probably annoy Bill.

[bil1010105]

My guess is that Jim was confused.  Maybe you're right.

If Jim wasn't confused, then this is fine.  Of course, it still doesn't get us multiple genres for movies.  But, it is better than nothing (and better than messing with the existing [Genre] field which was the main reason I came here to comment at all).

If Jim was confused, and the current behavior is going to continue (only [Genre] will now be filled if empty) this is also fine with me, but will probably annoy Bill.

Anything that messes with Keywords is going to annoy me.  Keywords and Name are the two most important fields in my library.

If I understand it, Keywords will not be populated, and instead empty Genre will be filled by whatever comes back from TMDB. If that is correct, then I'll add to Justin's THANK YOU!

If not, then I'm confused. Dammit Jim, I'm a programmer not a linguist. 

[glynor]

If not, then I'm confused. Dammit Jim, I'm a programmer not a linguist. 

I've been literally waiting for years and years for someone to use a variation of that phrase targeted at him. 

[Matt]

I'm confused about keywords too, and I think I'm the one that's supposed to make the change

Next build has the genre change and no keywords changes (but if you fill keywords, auto-lookup leaves them alone).

We'll circle back to keywords tomorrow.

[glynor]

I'm confused about keywords too, and I think I'm the one that's supposed to make the change

I think we're all a little confused.

Can I just ask a few questions to the people in this thread.  Can you try to give me yes/no answers as much as is possible so that we can get a clear answer on this?

1. MC is currently filling the [Keywords] tag with TMDb's Plot Keywords field.  Is this useful for you? (Yes/No)

2. Ignoring [Keywords] for right now, the proposed change would fill [Genre] (a string-type field in MC) with the first genre tag for each movie on TMDb.  This means that Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 1 would get tagged as [Genre]=Adventure (assuming the API returns them in the same order as they display on the site).  Will this work for you?  (Yes/No)

3. Instead of filling [Genre] with this first result, would it break anything for you if MC instead filled [Keywords] with all of the Genres in TMDb?  Keep in mind, [Keywords] is already being filled with something, so we're just talking about changing the source of that data from TMDb's Plot Keywords over to TMDb's Category: Genre tags.  (Yes/No)

Relating to #3, if you say yes, I'm going to ask what is going to break.  If it is a situation like Bill's, then that isn't directly a problem because you can easily add a Tag On Import rule (as discussed here) to pre-fill [Keywords] with something specific, so that it never gets filled with TMDb's data at all.

I'm just trying to get a handle on exactly where everyone stands on this, because we're getting all mixed up between how people think it should work, versus how it does now.  For example, Bill and MrHaugen seemed to be arguing that [Keywords] should be untouched, and then said they were happy with the proposed solution (maybe because of Jim's curveball) but it seems like they won't be, and having only one [Genre] seems like a half-measure.

My guess is that no one is going to answer Yes to #1 above.  If that is the case, then why are we filling it with that information?   And, if that answer is Yes, then what does it hurt to have [Keywords] (assuming it is going to be filled with SOMETHING, like it is now) filled with something more useful, like Genre?

That's all I'm trying to say.

For the record, my answers are:
1. No
2. Yes, though not ideally.
3. No

Thanks!