Topic: Playlist stops after first track with Kernel Streaming (Read 6818 times)

Dennis Graves · « **on:** February 23, 2012, 07:14:42 pm »

I am having a serious problem, which really makes JRiver quite unusable.
About half the time when a playlist (eg, 4 movements of a symphony) completes, my computer will cut off and reboot with the message that asks if I should continue the boot in normal startup mode. I click yes on that question and the computer reboots.
Although it does reboot, this is a significant problem that renders JRiver nearly unusable.
I have a CAPS2 music server running under Win 7 Pro. My Version of JRiver is 17.0.82. I occassionally use Jplay as a JRiver plugin, but the problem occurs whether I am running JRiver by itself or with the Jplay plugin.
Help!

Matt · « **Reply #1 on:** February 23, 2012, 07:21:51 pm »

Try uninstalling JPlay. It locks up lots of memory and can lead to problems.

Also, make sure you're using the best output mode:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Output_Modes

JimH · « **Reply #2 on:** February 23, 2012, 08:17:30 pm »

I posted this on computeraudiophile.com today:

"If you've installed Jplay, please read what we've just heard from a knowledgeable user:

'The last jplay download added a dll to MC17 that allows your
program to load to RAM before playback. I haven't been able to notice any sound difference and at times it seems to cause the BSOD, therefor I've removed it.'

"As you may have guessed, JRiver does not advise using Jplay with JRiver Media Center."

Dennis Graves · « **Reply #3 on:** February 24, 2012, 09:31:40 am »

This problem occurs both when using JRiver with the Jplay plugin and when I am playing JRiver without activating the Jplay plugin. Thus, Jplay cannot be the problem unless there is something in the Jplay plugin for JRiver that causes the problem even when the plugin is not activated and in use.
Are you saying the Jplay dll works to cause the problem even when the Jplay plugin is not activated and in use?

If so, I suggest you work with Jplay to resolve this issue, as it could affect a lot of users of both programs and work to the disadvantage of both your programs/businesses.

I have been using Kernel STreaming. I will go back to Wasapi Event Style and see what happens, although I believe the Jplay plugin requires Kernel Streaming.

JimH · « **Reply #4 on:** February 24, 2012, 09:37:23 am »

Uninstall jplay. It can cause a crash. Uninstall and reboot.

Dennis Graves · « **Reply #5 on:** February 24, 2012, 05:33:55 pm »

How do I uninstall Jplay as a Plugin to JRiver?

JimH · « **Reply #6 on:** February 24, 2012, 05:37:17 pm »

Uninstall Jplay.

Dennis Graves · « **Reply #7 on:** February 26, 2012, 07:22:28 pm »

Jim,
I uninstalled Jplay and the exact same problem exists: my CAPS2 crashes and has to reboot at the end of a play if I use Kernel Streaming.
The problem does not exist when I use Wasapi Event. I would just use Wasapi Event EXCEPT THAT WITH MY SYSTEM KERNEL STREAMING PRODUCES THE BEST SOUND. You have a product that can sound very good, but in my system it only sounds best with Kernel STreaming.
I am using JRiver and computer audio (a CAPS2 music server) because I have found that indeed computer audio CAN sound better than the best transport I have heard. (I use an Accustic ARts transport, but have tried many over the years.) PLease help me resolve this problem, so I (and others) can get the best sound possible.
By the way, the one truism I have found in 30+ years of audio is that "everything is system dependent". If you have a very highly resolving system, as I do, you will notice things that others do not (eg, that KS is better than Wasapi Event in my system). Indeed, I just changed interconnects from STealth to MIT Oracle Matrix and have been able to hear even better the difference between KS and Wasapi Event.
Dennis

JimH · « **Reply #8 on:** February 26, 2012, 07:28:54 pm »

I wish I could help, but I don't think I've ever heard of a Kernel Streaming crash.

What does the manufacturer suggest? Do they provide an ASIO driver?

I assume you rebooted after the uninstall.

Matt · « **Reply #9 on:** February 26, 2012, 08:20:41 pm »

On Vista and Windows 7, WASAPI Event Style is best (if you don't have ASIO).

Kernel Streaming is just a wrapper on top of WASAPI starting with Vista, so it really can't sound better than WASAPI.

Dennis Graves · « **Reply #10 on:** February 27, 2012, 01:36:50 pm »

Jim, yes, of course I rebooted after uninstalling JPlay.
As to what the "manufacturer" might suggest, I believe you (JRiver) are the "manufacturer" of the playback software I am using and that is why I am seeking your assistance.

Matt: Here is how the outputs sound in my (highly resolving) system:
Kernel Streaming: A+
Wasapi Event: A-
Asio: B+
The comment that KS is just a "wrapper" and can't sound better than WASAPI sounds a bit like the comments that we always used to hear about how it is impossible for different USB cables to sound different. It depends on your system, but if your system is good enough you WILL hear a difference in USB cables, at least the cable that connects the computer to the DAC or USB converter. And in my system I do hear a big difference in USB cables and, yes, a difference between KS and Wasapi Event.
There are things in high end audio that simply cannot be measured on an oscilliscope (or any other technical device).

Two last questions:
Do you think it might help if I uninstalled JRiver and reinstalled it?
Do you think the problem could have something to do with Win7 Pro services or settings? I have set many Win 7 services to manual and disengaged a few, as I think it helps sound quality. Are there any services or settings that might be invoked by Kernel Streaming but not Wasapi Event (or vice versa)?
Dennis

JimH · « **Reply #11 on:** February 27, 2012, 02:09:09 pm »

Go to Tools/Plug-in Manager and verify that Jplay isn't still present.

Dennis Graves · « **Reply #12 on:** February 27, 2012, 03:06:17 pm »

Nothing in the main listing of plugins, or the subcategory listings, shows JPlay.
And Jplay does not show up in Win7 Control Panel, programs.
Jplay does not show up in Windows Explorer under applications or programs.
It is gone.

Matt · « **Reply #13 on:** February 27, 2012, 03:10:10 pm »

Quote from: Dennis Graves on February 27, 2012, 01:36:50 pm

Do you think the problem could have something to do with Win7 Pro services or settings? I have set many Win 7 services to manual and disengaged a few, as I think it helps sound quality. Are there any services or settings that might be invoked by Kernel Streaming but not Wasapi Event (or vice versa)?

We don't recommend disabling core pieces of Windows. If you do this, I don't think we can really help when there are problems.

Dennis Graves · « **Reply #14 on:** February 27, 2012, 06:47:29 pm »

Yes, I understand that "disabling core pieces of windows" is generally not recommended. However, for a dedicated music server like CAPS2 uneeded services are disabled or set to manual by many users -- who run JRiver without problems. Indeed, Chris Connaker recommends disabling most services.
My questions remain:
1) Do you have any knowledge that there are win 7 pro services that might affect the DSP output, be it WASAPI or KS?
-- This seems to me to be a) a key question and b) one that the developers of JRiver would have some knowledge about
2) Do you think it might help to uninstall and reinstall JRiver?
3) Do you have any other suggestions as to possible solutions to the problem?
Thanks.

JimH · « **Reply #15 on:** February 27, 2012, 06:50:20 pm »

Quote from: Dennis Graves on February 27, 2012, 06:47:29 pm

Yes, I understand that "disabling core pieces of windows" is generally not recommended.

It probably explains why Kernel Streaming isn't working for you.

Please try a Google search to see what you can learn. You may need to reinstall Windows.

Quote

2) Do you think it might help to uninstall and reinstall JRiver?

Doubtful. But harmless to try.

Dennis Graves · « **Reply #16 on:** February 28, 2012, 01:56:14 am »

I am surprised that the developers of JRiver do not know precisely what Win 7 services are necessary to run their program, including what services are required for Kernel Streaming.

JimH · « **Reply #17 on:** February 28, 2012, 06:52:53 am »

When you start tweaking Windows, you're in dangerous territory.

Reinstalling Windows is probably the easiest way to fix this.

Matt · « **Reply #18 on:** February 28, 2012, 01:13:00 pm »

It looks like some kernel streaming drivers blue screen if a not-totally-full packet is delivered to them (which happens at the end of a track). This is a driver bug, but I'm going to see if we can work around it.

Matt · « **Reply #19 on:** February 28, 2012, 01:54:39 pm »

In a coming build:
Changed: Kernel Streaming output no longer writes partial packets if there's a shortfall or at the end of a track but instead delivers a full packet with some silence (some drivers blue screen on partial packets).

JimH · « **Reply #20 on:** March 02, 2012, 03:51:48 pm »

Please try build 99 from the top of the MC17 board. It was a driver bug, but Matt found a way around it.

Are you using an external DAC? Which one?

Dennis Graves · « **Reply #21 on:** March 05, 2012, 02:15:26 pm »

I go from my CAP2 server to a Berkely Audio Design USB converter and then to a Berkeley Audio Design Alpha dac via a Stealth Varidig Sextet XLR digital cable.

jesseinsf · « **Reply #22 on:** March 05, 2012, 05:46:08 pm »

In addition to Jim and Matt's comment about not changing system settings and processes. Also NEVER use a registry cleaner. If you did then it's mandatory to reformat/reinstall Windows if you have BSODs..

Dennis Graves · « **Reply #23 on:** April 11, 2012, 09:24:22 am »

I updated to the latest version. Now there are numerous problems with playback. The most obvious is that I will play one track of a 4 track piece (eg, four movement symphony) and the playback stops. It says "waiting". The "stop after current track" is not checked under playback.
Nor are any of the repeat, etc arrows at the playback bar. I tried turning on and off gapless playback but that doesn't help. This appears to simply be a bug.

JimH · « **Reply #24 on:** April 11, 2012, 09:25:08 am »

Something's not right. Try rebooting.

Dennis Graves · « **Reply #25 on:** April 11, 2012, 09:27:34 pm »

Of course I tried rebooting (several times).
The problem continues: after I play a track, I get a "waiting" message. And this occurs regardless of whether I am playing in a playlist or just running down tracks Audio. I tried all the settings I could think that might relate to this but have not been able to solve the problem.
Yes, something IS wrong. If you have no solution, then kindly tell me how I can download the prior version (I did not have the problem with it).

Matt · « **Reply #26 on:** April 11, 2012, 10:57:40 pm »

This is not a common problem, so is likely a bug in the sound driver.

Try switching to WASAPI - Event Style if your system supports it.

JimH · « **Reply #27 on:** April 12, 2012, 06:37:51 am »

What build are you using? 17.0.122 is the latest.

Dennis Graves · « **Reply #28 on:** April 12, 2012, 09:07:46 pm »

I am using 17.0.122.
I tried switching to Wasapi Event, as you suggested. The problem does not occur with Wasapi Event, so your diagnosis appears to be correct: a bug in the Kernel Streaming sound driver, or at least some incompatibility between JRiver 17.0.122 and Kernel Streaming.
This problem did not exist with prior versions of JRiver, so evidently JRiver can be made compatible with Kernel Streaming.
And I should point out that Kernel Streaming is where JRiver reaches its apex. Wasapi simply does not sound as good with a highly resolving system. There may be a technical argument that there theoretically should be no difference in the sound between the two, but the fact is that virtually everyone I know who has a high end sound system and uses your software confirms that JRiver sounds better with Kernel Streaming than Wasapi.
By the way, the last time I experienced a problem (a different problem) using JRiver with Kernel STreaming you were able to do a fix for the next JRiver version so that I could use KS and did not have to settle for Wasapi. Can you do that again??

Dennis Graves · « **Reply #29 on:** June 16, 2012, 01:39:57 pm »

I have version 17.0.165. Running under Kernel Streaming, when I try to play a playlist consisting of the 4 movements of a symphony or quartet, JRiver stops after each first track (movement) and I see a "waiting" message. That defeats the purpose of a playlist.

If I switch to Wasapi Event, the problem does not exist.

This is the same problem I noted in a previous post 2 or 3 months ago. (I thought it would be corrected by now with new versions.)

Your prior response was "just run Wasapi as it sounds the same". But that is simply not the case. YOU may not hear a difference with your test system (especially playing rock or pop or jazz), but everyone I know who has a really highly resolving system and plays classical hears a difference: Kernel Streaming is better.

Matt · « **Reply #30 on:** June 16, 2012, 01:54:59 pm »

You have a hardware or driver issue. You might talk to the manufacturer of your hardware. Feel free to give them our contact information (I'm matt at jriver).

However, if you use gapless or cross-fading, the output side doesn't even know about track transitions so there's no reason they would stall. You might try that.

Dennis Graves · « **Reply #31 on:** June 19, 2012, 02:26:51 pm »

If I use the JPlay plugin for JRiver, running in JPlay kernel streaming, the problem does not exist. Doesn't that mean that the problem is with JRiver, rather than the hardware or operating system or a third party driver?

JimH · « **Reply #32 on:** June 19, 2012, 02:34:52 pm »

Uninstall jplay.

Kernel Streaming is not the best output. Here's what we recommend:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Output_Modes

JimH · « **Reply #33 on:** June 19, 2012, 02:48:39 pm »

I combined your three similar threads into one. We do not believe this a Media Center problem. I don't expect you to believe that, based on your previous posts.

Dennis Graves · « **Reply #34 on:** June 27, 2012, 11:59:28 am »

Since using JPlay plugin with JRiver is the only way to get JRiver to work with Kernel Streaming, why would you suggest that I uninstall JPlay? Since you have concluded that Kernel Streaming is not the best output, would you kindly tell me 1) the components of your test system (I expect it is not really high resolution) and 2) what kind of music you are listening to when you arrive at that conclusion (I expect it is not classical). Perhaps the responses to these two issues will explain why JRiver has come to a different conclusion than I (and others with highly resolving systems).

JimH · « **Reply #35 on:** June 27, 2012, 12:06:53 pm »

Try uninstalling jplay and rebooting.

JimH · « **Reply #36 on:** June 27, 2012, 12:32:03 pm »

Quote from: Matt on June 16, 2012, 01:54:59 pm

You have a hardware or driver issue. You might talk to the manufacturer of your hardware. Feel free to give them our contact information (I'm matt at jriver).

However, if you use gapless or cross-fading, the output side doesn't even know about track transitions so there's no reason they would stall. You might try that.

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Author Topic: Playlist stops after first track with Kernel Streaming (Read 6818 times)