Topic: Scroll bars missing (Read 10039 times)

Captor · « **on:** July 02, 2012, 01:17:36 pm »

Hi
I have my MC17 in a media computer connected to a 50 inch Plasma TV.
I have the resolution 1920x1080 in order to be able to see something at all when sitting 4 m away.
The problem is that the windows in JRiver then of course are getting bigger as well (that is the whole point).
BUT there are no scroll bars! So if I for example are changing some settings in Option I can not reach the OK button because it is not there at all. This is frustrating and I wonder if there are any plans to fix this?
Considering that more and more people use big screens.
Or is there anything I can do except changing the resolution every time I want to try other settings?

Thanks in advance
Captor

Captor · « **Reply #1 on:** July 28, 2012, 10:09:38 am »

Hello
No one who know anything about this?

Captor

eddyshere · « **Reply #2 on:** July 28, 2012, 10:38:39 am »

The scaler of your display is most likely the culprit. And the point that you don't see the edges is not MC but your GPU driver. To be sure to have everything right either switch your plasma in dot-by-dot mode or in the configuration pane of your gpu scale it down. I know it sounds silly but with a perfect 1920x1080 output the screen oversizes. I have a Pioneer KURO 60 inch and if I'm not switching it to dot by dot, the scaling overscans and I lose the borders. If dot-by-dot is not available then you can only downscale a bit in the GPU driver to fit it exactly.

Captor · « **Reply #3 on:** July 28, 2012, 11:09:30 am »

Dear eddyshere
I use always dot-by-dot. I have done so always. And still I have never seen any scroll bars.
Meaning I can not see the whole window (no matter which one). If the window is bigger then my 50 inch screen there are no scroll bars and I can not see everything in that window. I can not see the whole window. For example if there is a OK and Cancel button in the lower part of the window I can not see it and can because of that not click on the buttons "OK" or "cancel" too.

eddyshere · « **Reply #4 on:** July 28, 2012, 01:44:55 pm »

hum ... try reducing the scaling in your GPU application and set the window size to 85%....

Captor · « **Reply #5 on:** July 28, 2012, 02:29:48 pm »

Yes that will change the window size so that I maybe can see the whole window.
That is not the point. Why shall I decrease the resolution now that I have bought a nice TV with high resolution?
Should´nt there be scroll bars? That is normal with almost all softwares out there. If increasing the resolution there will automaticly be a scrollbar. I think this software (MC17) don´t has this possibility. Or it has but it does not work in my PC.

Do you have scroll bars when you use 1920 x 1080 in with your 60 inch Kuro? Hve you checked in all windows for example under all the sound settings in "options"?

eddyshere · « **Reply #6 on:** July 28, 2012, 02:51:47 pm »

I'm not sure I understand you correctly. ?
You'll have scaling involved when you transmit to a flat screen and that's depending if it can distinguish between HDTV signal or PC signals. Displays are not all the same and handle the incoming signal very differently. What I try to say is that it is not because you see things bigger on your big screen that automatically scroll bars will appear because it's out of your viewing on the screen. (windows or running programs do automatically add scrollbars when you decrease!! the resolution). So once again you have to resize. Or try setting the resolution of your gpu to 1920x1080 (PC) and not 1080p or i (HDTV)....see if that changes. Yes I get scrollbars as my desktop fills exactly the screen (AMD GPU) with nvidia or sandy bridge I had to resize because it also went over board and as a result the tasklist, and the scroll bars disappeared.

Captor · « **Reply #7 on:** July 31, 2012, 04:57:10 pm »

Anyone? Any answer from the JRiver support would be apretiated.

JimH · « **Reply #8 on:** July 31, 2012, 05:01:33 pm »

I think eddy is giving you good advice. Part of the Windows screen is not being displayed.

Matt · « **Reply #9 on:** July 31, 2012, 05:02:04 pm »

Sorry, but fonts larger than about 12pt (at normal DPI) are not supported on all dialogs.

You can maximize the Options dialog.

Captor · « **Reply #10 on:** August 01, 2012, 09:00:44 am »

No, sorry, but the advice from Eddy is not suitable in my case as I described. It sounds like you don´t understand what I mean. I will try to make a print screen. Can I attach a printscrren here?

Captor · « **Reply #11 on:** August 01, 2012, 09:32:55 am »

How can I attach a file here?

NickF · « **Reply #12 on:** August 01, 2012, 11:05:01 am »

Quote from: Captor on August 01, 2012, 09:32:55 am

How can I attach a file here?

Look at "Additional options" at the bottom of the panel when you post.

Nick.

Captor · « **Reply #13 on:** August 01, 2012, 02:15:28 pm »

OK, thanks, so here comes a printscreen. It don´t look exactly like that on my screen. But this is how
it looks when I make a printscreen with snagit. And it anyway shows about that I can´t see and access the whole active window. In this particular example it is the DSP Studio window that is active.

JimH · « **Reply #14 on:** August 01, 2012, 02:22:02 pm »

Try a smaller font size in MC.

Captor · « **Reply #15 on:** August 01, 2012, 03:04:52 pm »

If I try a smaller font size I can not read on the screen when sitting 3,5 meter away from the TV. It is a 50" TV so I do sit in the sofa on this distance. That is the whole point with using a TV instead of a smaller computer screen. What about a scrollbar then? In every software I know about there use to be a scrollbar. Is that something you can add in MC18?

JimH · « **Reply #16 on:** August 01, 2012, 03:09:25 pm »

For Home Theater use, please try Theater View.

Captor · « **Reply #17 on:** August 01, 2012, 03:50:28 pm »

What? In what way will that help if I try to change settings in DSP Studio?? Or other settings? I have not access to all buttons! I attach a picture here from my camera.

Matt · « **Reply #18 on:** August 01, 2012, 03:52:41 pm »

As I said above, fonts that large aren't supported.

You will have to use Options > Tree & View > Select font to pick a smaller font that will work properly.

Captor · « **Reply #19 on:** August 01, 2012, 04:06:15 pm »

So that means big TV screen is not supported....
If I cant have this fonts, which are´nt so big, I have not enlarged them, this is the way they are when the resolution is 1920x1080. Anyway, If I can´t have this fonts I cant read anything on the screen! How are other people doing? If you want to use JRiver for movies and you have a 50" screen you use 1920x1080 right? Are you then sitting in normal distance (3-3,5 meter) from the TV? I can not imagine you are sitting 1 meter away or something like that? So if sitting 3-3,5 meter away (in a normal living room) you should have the same problem. That you either can´t change the settings when using 1920x1080 or you have a smaller font and can not read the song titles or album titles on the screeen because the fonts are to small. This sounds not logical.
I guess y´the reason why are "sliding away" and don´t answers on my question about a scrollbar in MC18 means that there will not be any scroll bar, right?

Matt · « **Reply #20 on:** August 01, 2012, 05:01:33 pm »

You might try Theater View.

rick.ca · « **Reply #21 on:** August 01, 2012, 05:36:35 pm »

Quote

You might try Theater View.

I was going to say the same, along with implied—this kind of use for Standard View is not supported. But then I realized that would be rather dismissive of his situation. He's using MC on a system that only uses a TV for display. It makes me wonder how he maintains the library, if this machine is networked to others, if he a mouse and keyboard, etc. But all that is beside the point. He has somehow adapted to situation, and is only asking about a limitation he can't (easily) work around. The window in question isn't even available from Theatre View.

The way he is using the program has nothing to do with the fact some windows don't provide scroll bars. That happens for one reason only—the design assumption they'll never be necessary. Well, sometimes they are. I use Standard View at the same resolution and a 10 pt font. I've run into the situation where I've added so many rules to a Search the window expands beyond the limits of the screen—making critical controls inaccessible. You may think I'm odd for wanting to use so many rules, but I wasn't 'wrong' in attempting to do so.

The cause of the problem is a flaw in the program. Windows should not be allowed to expand beyond the screen. Regardless of how likely or why that might happen, the standard Windows behaviour would be to add a scroll bar when that limit is reached.

Matt · « **Reply #22 on:** August 01, 2012, 05:39:18 pm »

I'm not saying it's great the program can't always accommodate huge fonts. Hopefully we'll be able to change this someday, but it's a big project.

So for now, you'll have to use smaller fonts and stand a little closer when using Standard View. Hopefully you can use Theater View most of the time.

rick.ca · « **Reply #23 on:** August 01, 2012, 06:14:36 pm »

Quote

I'm not saying it's great the program can't always accommodate huge fonts.

But what about the real issue: Some windows are allowed to expand off-screen instead of creating scroll bars?

Captor · « **Reply #24 on:** August 02, 2012, 02:37:34 am »

Um... I am thinking that JRiver claims to be a media program. And it has worked fine with a normal computer screen, but the main issue for a media program is of course to connect the server to a big screen. A big TV/monitor or a projector. The first and most important for a media program is of course the possibility to to use that together with a big screen!
I compare for example with xmbc which is a free software and that provides scroll bars if needed. That is normal for all softwares out there. A high tech program as JRiver should of course have this simple support.

Dear Rick.ca: Thanks for understanding my situation. I use JRiver together with both mouse and keyboard. I have all my flac music files stored on the local hard drive. Movies I stream from another server. Or DVD or storing in the harddrive as well. Bluray player will be the next.
But as you said, that is not the point

For now I mostly use XBMC for movies and JRiver for music. I would like to start with movies as well in JRiver.

I really hope that there will be support creating scroll bars when the windows becomes off-screen. I am sure that this will be required more and more when people start to widen the use of JRiver. Is this really that big issue for a premium software like JRiver? It should be standard same as other software. I really hope and beg that you will consider that for MC18.

rick.ca · « **Reply #25 on:** August 02, 2012, 04:07:58 pm »

Quote

Dear Rick.ca: Thanks for understanding my situation...

I understand scroll bars are a fundamental Windows behaviour that should just work in any circumstance in which required, and their not working for some MC windows is the cause of your issue. I don't understand your insistence Standard View should work as a 10-foot UI. It's intended for and designed to be used as a standard desktop application. Theatre View is the 10-foot UI. The design premise implied is that Standard View will be used at least for library maintenance (most collecting, tagging and organizing activities), and Theatre View will be used for enjoying the collection from the couch. I'm sure that's how most of us are using it.

It sounds like you probably do have the ability to use Standard View in the manner it was designed for. There's nothing wrong with your choice to use it otherwise, but in doing so, you have to accept the consequent limitations. I just pointed out the behaviour of scroll bars should not be one of those limitations. To ignore Theatre View and argue Standard View is deficient because it doesn't behave like other applications that don't even have a Standard View is spurious and contrary to your best hope—that the scroll bar issue is fixed.

Captor · « **Reply #26 on:** August 02, 2012, 05:58:53 pm »

Look at my situation ( and probably most people). I have a 50 inch TV for watching movies. I have my furniture 3-3,5 m away from the TV.
If I should go for your suggestion I have to move the sofa close to the TV everytime I want to look in standard view. And then when I want to see a movie I have to move the sofa back again to its original position. Do you think that sounds very practical? Or maybe I can place a chair close to the TV for use when having standard view and then sitting back in the sofa when using Theater view. Is that what your are proposing?? Maybe better you continuing this discussion with my girlfriend:-)

Changing between theater view and standard means I have to move forth and back everytime I change view. In order to be able to read the letters. Or changing resolution all the time. That is not a solution on the problem.

I still believe the most smart is to fix the scroll bar issue in all windows. I strongly believe you would have a more strong and alround software that way.

fitbrit · « **Reply #27 on:** August 02, 2012, 06:12:15 pm »

Maybe I have super vision, but I mostly use standard view for all navigation, filtering, and tagging. This is on a 61" screen from 3m away, and also on a 120" screen from 4m away. I could probably increase those distances by a factor of 1.5, at least, and still be ok.
Have you considered an eye test? I'm not being rude, just asking.

rick.ca · « **Reply #28 on:** August 02, 2012, 06:46:46 pm »

Quote from: Captor on August 02, 2012, 05:58:53 pm

Look at my situation (and probably most people).

You've been less than direct about what that is. Most people don't do all their computing on a couch with a large screen TV. Most would have some kind of arrangement where Standard View is available in a normal desktop mode—whether that the same machine on which the TV is a second monitor, another machine on the same network, whatever. If you are in the extremely odd situation where the couch/TV is the only option, then perhaps the chair in front of the TV or appropriate eye correction is the best option. Or use different software. Standard View is not designed to be a 10-foot interface.

If your girlfriend were smart, she would tell you to do all your library maintenance on a different machine in another room. That would leave her alone to enjoy Theatre View on the TV. If you would like me to explain this and other things to her, ask her to pm me her phone number.

Captor · « **Reply #29 on:** August 03, 2012, 05:22:57 am »

Haha... yes maybe I´ll give you her phone number. That can solve many of my other problems as well

Anyway, I think you should prepare yourself that people want to use the media computer that way I do.
More and more in the future. I have two other computers as well in other rooms. But they are clean PC´s for normal PC-use. The one in the living room is for media only. So the software should be for media use too.
I was thinking I can use MC for every media situation. I guess was wrong.

I have the resolution 1920 x 1080. That is perfect when watching movies on XBMC. That is OK too when changing settings in XBMC. Because XBMC supports scroll bars if too big windows comes up. And also the other media softwares i have (but don´t use so much) supports that....

In fact, the only software I have that don´t supports that is JRiver! And that is a shame if you ask me because the software is a premium software otherwise. But this flaw is of course lowering the "end points".

The best (and only) solution would be if MC support scroll bar when windows are bigger than the screen.
But it sounds like it is very difficult to support that? I mean we are not talking about building a moon rocket here! Only a simple scroll bar. I can really not understand the resistance against scroll bars. That would really change the hole software. I hope you people at JRiver consider and change your mind about that in coming versions.

rick.ca · « **Reply #30 on:** August 03, 2012, 06:14:26 am »

Quote

The best (and only) solution would be if MC support scroll bar when windows are bigger than the screen.

If that's all you need, it's a pity you had to make this about using Standard View for something it wasn't designed for. That's likely resulted in this topic being ignored, along with the suggestion missing scroll bars is a flaw regardless of how Standard View is being used and should be fixed. I suggest you set your font at the recommended size, add too many rules to a search, then report the result as a bug. Maybe you'll get lucky and all windows will be fixed as a result.

Captor · « **Reply #31 on:** August 03, 2012, 07:08:38 am »

Actually I don´t understand what you mean by Standard view was not designed for using with big screen and high resolution. That is something I can´t understand of a media software. You have really designed this for using with smaller screen only? Sorry I did not know that long time before...

What is the recommended size of font? You mean I can do that inside MC? Were to change that? I haven´t touch any settings about fonts so far.

No, this is all to complicated. I will use MC17 with its limitations and when and if there comes versions with scroll bars in the future I will be customer again. But before that the software don´t fulfill my needs.

JimH · « **Reply #32 on:** August 03, 2012, 07:56:59 am »

Quote from: Captor on August 03, 2012, 07:08:38 am

Actually I don´t understand what you mean by Standard view was not designed for using with big screen and high resolution. That is something I can´t understand of a media software. You have really designed this for using with smaller screen only? Sorry I did not know that long time before...

Theater View was designed for this use case.

Captor · « **Reply #33 on:** August 03, 2012, 08:02:49 am »

That don´t help if I want to change settings which I do very often.

JimH · « **Reply #34 on:** August 03, 2012, 08:08:00 am »

Which settings? Zones might work.

Captor · « **Reply #35 on:** August 03, 2012, 08:10:48 am »

Different settings within options for example. I am doing a lot in options all the time. What is zones? That sounds promising. Can I read about that on Wiki?

JimH · « **Reply #36 on:** August 03, 2012, 08:13:07 am »

http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Zones

and this may be useful:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/OSD

NickF · « **Reply #37 on:** August 03, 2012, 08:15:02 am »

Quote from: Captor on August 03, 2012, 08:10:48 am

Different settings within options for example. I am doing a lot in options all the time. What is zones? That sounds promising. Can I read about that on Wiki?

The wiki entry on Zones is here:

http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Zones

A Zone can be configured with its own set of settings. Many settings can be set differently for each Zone. So if you change a setting frequently, say for a particular type of media, you could just select the appropriate Zone.

Nick.

MrHaugen · « **Reply #38 on:** August 03, 2012, 08:23:42 am »

I have not read all in this post, but I have to say that I think you're quite unreasonable, Captor. Theater View IS made for viewing on a TV or Projector, while standard view is made for monitor usage, when you listen to music on your laptop or workstation, or if you do some management tasks on your library. You want something in between which I think you'll have a very hard time finding.

I've always done management tasks on my workstation, and I use my HTPC exclusively for Theater View playback. It's not very often I have to change options there, but If I have to I take my wireless keyboard/mouse combo over to the TV to see better what I do. This is what I'm used to. And I think most of us accepts this. If you want to change options all the time, then you might have to reconsider if it's worth it, or if you can do some of it automatically in other ways. Theater View is not perfect, but it can certainly be used for a lot of things.

Captor · « **Reply #39 on:** August 03, 2012, 08:36:09 am »

MrHaugen
Right! That is why I suggested support of scroll bars. Which seems to be a "hot potatoe" to solve.

I am sorry that I don´t like to use the theater view. I like to see all the songs on the screen and the albums etc. I can change artist, albums, songs, playlist very quick when I am listening to music in standard view.. I can not to that in the same way in theater view.

About the zones. There is some to read but I don´t think that will solve my problem.
May I ask WHY it is difficult to add support of scroll bars?

NickF · « **Reply #40 on:** August 03, 2012, 08:47:31 am »

Quote from: Captor on August 03, 2012, 08:36:09 am

About the zones. There is some to read but I don´t think that will solve my problem.
May I ask WHY it is difficult to add support of scroll bars?

Captor, can you explain which settings you are changing frequently and why? Maybe then we can help with the use of Zones, if they are appropriate.

Nick.

Captor · « **Reply #41 on:** August 03, 2012, 10:43:59 am »

Here I have change font settings so I use the smallest = size 8. Can still not see everything in this window DSP studio. This is the windows were I use to change settings about subwoofer and Bitdepth a lot for example. Whats in the bottom of this window? Can´t see that.

<°)))))>< · « **Reply #42 on:** August 03, 2012, 11:07:41 am »

Quote from: Captor on August 03, 2012, 10:43:59 am

Here I have change font settings so I use the smallest = size 8. Can still not see everything in this window DSP studio.

With font size 8 this window should be about 730 pixel high, with font size 10 about 1000 pixel.
So with FullHD resolution you should see the whole windows at any rate.
Something seems to be messed up. Can you try to restart MC to be sure the font size was really adapted?

By the way... are you sure you uploaded/linked the right screenshot?

NickF · « **Reply #43 on:** August 03, 2012, 11:13:08 am »

Quote from: Captor on August 03, 2012, 10:43:59 am

Here I have change font settings so I use the smallest = size 8. Can still not see everything in this window DSP studio. This is the windows were I use to change settings about subwoofer and Bitdepth a lot for example. Whats in the bottom of this window? Can´t see that.

Here is a capture of this same window at 12pt font and it just fits on a 1920 x 1200 screen. I would lose a bit off the bottom on a 1080 screen but 12 pt would fit easily. I notice that on your windows, there is no option to expand to full screen. You must have changed some Windows settings. I am on the Windows default setting for text size.

Nick.

NickF · « **Reply #44 on:** August 03, 2012, 11:19:47 am »

Quote from: <°)))))>< on August 03, 2012, 11:07:41 am

By the way... are you sure you uploaded/linked the right screenshot?

Yes, it looks like the same one as in post 17.

Nick.

Captor · « **Reply #45 on:** August 03, 2012, 11:41:03 am »

Nick...is this the whole DSP studio window or is there more down under?
Fishman...Yes, I will restart MC and yes I sent the correct picture that I wanted so send. It looks strange oh..?

<°)))))>< · « **Reply #46 on:** August 03, 2012, 12:02:41 pm »

Quote from: Captor on August 03, 2012, 11:41:03 am

... and yes I sent the correct picture that I wanted so send. It looks strange oh..?

Mmh, please check again, as NickF mentioned it looks the same as the one in post 17.
It's quite impossible that this shows a font with size 8 on a screen with FullHD res.

EDIT: Here's a screen of the dsp window with font size 9. It has a size of 1031x873 pixel in this case.

Captor · « **Reply #47 on:** August 03, 2012, 12:18:28 pm »

OK, here comes a printscreen made with snagit. And after restart of PC. I also re installed the graphicdriver. Looks better but still some missing. Font in MC is Segoe UI size 12 now in this printscreen.

Captor · « **Reply #48 on:** August 03, 2012, 12:21:17 pm »

Fisherman, is this printscreen the whole DSP-window?

Captor · « **Reply #49 on:** August 03, 2012, 12:35:13 pm »

Another try, this is with the font setting in windows to medium. In MC size 12.

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Author Topic: Scroll bars missing (Read 10039 times)