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[Matt]

jmone, maybe you could teach your family to use the existing OSD.  It's really pretty simple, and it works the same for all types of media. 

Try it for a couple months.

After that, if you still feel strongly that it's too complicated, let's talk again.

[glynor]

I do not understand the reason for filling up this thread with off topic issues

I liked my off topic issues.  So they're exempt. 

[jmone]

Matt - will do and I'll report back how they go.

MrH - it is on topic.  Matts very first post in this thread was in response (and reference) to my feature request thread for a DVD style Menu.

[MrHaugen]

MrH - it is on topic.  Matts very first post in this thread was in response (and reference) to my feature request thread for a DVD style Menu.

It might very well be. But it's pretty obvious that it's not the goal of this thread, and JRiver. It's about Improving the current one. It even say so in the thread name. Even though a full menu was introduced, it would probably not replace the current one, but rather be an addition. Why would they kill a function that users are so used to, and that's been part of MC for so many years? So why try to fill up a thread with thing's that will bring you nowhere, instead of actually making the current OSD the best possible? We're just going to end up with an un-polished OSD, and you'll be no closer to a full screen menu.


On topic:
I think the current implementation of the OSD is sort of Ok. But not more than that. Again, I do not have subs on my test video files here, but I hope that Subs and Audio are another group than settings. Otherwise it would be to much settings in one place I think. I think that the Underlining on the selected items looks really old. Please remove it. It caught my eye immediately and I disliked it just as fast. I also think that the down arrow should activate the currently selected menu item. switching to the Ok/Enter button is just a awkward and unnecessary step.

I still stand by my suggestion of using rollers on this OSD. It would be pretty intuitive for those that are used to Theater View, and it could work very well for touch as well. It would give you a superb overview of the possible options and how to activate them. And it could let us get rid of that misplaced top progress bar.
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=74000.msg501968#msg501968

[jmone]

MrH - happy to disagree but you will now see little posts from me on this as I've been put in my box by Matt for a couple of months.

[mojave]

There should be the option of always keeping the OSD within the video area. My screen resolution and my video area are different and I've seen it different on several other setups.

I would like the progress bar and volume bar to be at the bottom of the screen and accessed with a down arrow/button.

I would like the other menu items to be at the top of the screen and all visible with an up arrow/button. Moving right or left through the menu would then display their associated options below the menu and listed either horizontally or vertically. In my example I show them horizontally, but I think in practice I might actually like a vertical listing better. The horizontal placement has less impact on the video image, though.

This method is super quick to see all options at a glance without having to toggle through everything. As you then go left/right you can see all the sub-options for each heading.

[raym]

Gotta agree with mrH on this one. Using a dual roller system for this, just like theater view makes a heck of a lot of sense. People are already familiar with this menu system and the look and feel would then be consistent across both theater and display/fullscreen views.

And.... If you filled the width of the screen (just like the main roller in theater view) you have a lot more real estate to work with to present more options at a glance.

[raym]

2 suggestions:-

1/ allow us to hide stuff we never use. Seriously, who has a need to constantly adjust (and mess up) video brightness and color controls?! This would go a long way in reducing complexity and all the clutter.

2/ I think "Title" needs it own heading and I'd like to see the length of each one (maybe underneath) so I can quickly tell which ones are the main features.

Thanks.

[glynor]

Gotta agree with mrH on this one. Using a dual roller system for this, just like theater view makes a heck of a lot of sense. People are already familiar with this menu system and the look and feel would then be consistent across both theater and display/fullscreen views.

And.... If you filled the width of the screen (just like the main roller in theater view) you have a lot more real estate to work with to present more options at a glance.

+1

[Hendrik]

1/ allow us to hide stuff we never use. Seriously, who has a need to constantly adjust (and mess up) video brightness and color controls?! This would go a long way in reducing complexity and all the clutter.

I agree with this one, i never change brightness or color controls, nor have i ever touched the frame size controls.

[MrHaugen]

+1. I can't see how many users would needs those.


Perhaps this could be a bridge to improve the current Theater View view management as well? By adding a roller based OSD and allowing users to remove and add items, it could be a pretty soft way of testing/introducing a new, more user friendly and intuitive way of configuring Views?

I don't currently have any solid suggestions, but I think it would be possible to get some pretty good ideas if we combine the heads of JRiver and the beta users, and in time other forum users.

[Matt]

2/ I think "Title" needs it own heading and I'd like to see the length of each one (maybe underneath) so I can quickly tell which ones are the main features.

More importantly, I think it shouldn't jump to a new title unless you press enter.

But the list of titles is so cryptic that I have mixed feelings about whether it even makes sense to show.

[Matt]

I think it'd be better to merge 'Horizontal Position' and 'Vertical Position' into 'Shift'.

It'd work like: press enter to start, then press arrows to shift the picture, then enter to finish.

It'd be more understandable, and put less stuff on the menu.

[raym]

More importantly, I think it shouldn't jump to a new title unless you press enter.

Can I get an AMEN!? Of course I want this too, have for ages, but deliberately didn't mentioned it again here because you seemed dead against using enter in the past. Yes, yes, YES... please implement this.

The title names are cryptic which is why showing the title length would help a lot. This would allow you to determine short special features from the feature film (for example).  I can't remember for sure but mc17/the old OSD had this.

Please don't remove Titles. These suggestions will help alot IMO. This is one of the best things about using mc with BD's. I can jump straight to the content on the disc without the strain of navigating the stupid menus.

[Matt]

Can I get an AMEN!? Of course I want this too, have for ages, but deliberately didn't mentioned it again here because you seemed dead against using enter in the past. Yes, yes, YES... please implement this.

I think requiring enter to change something simple like brightness or a subtitle doesn't make a lot of sense.  I mean, if you push right and don't like it, you push left and it reverts.

But title is different.  It fundamentally changes what you're watching, and clicking back the other direction doesn't revert a bad click.

[raym]

I think requiring enter to change something simple like brightness or a subtitle doesn't make a lot of sense.  I mean, if you push right and don't like it, you push left and it reverts.

But title is different.  It fundamentally changes what you're watching, and clicking back the other direction doesn't revert a bad click.

Completely agree. Add the length of each title underneath the name and you're on a winner!

[JustinChase]

I think it'd be better to merge 'Horizontal Position' and 'Vertical Position' into 'Shift'.

It'd work like: press enter to start, then press arrows to shift the picture, then enter to finish.

It'd be more understandable, and put less stuff on the menu.

Sounds good.

I might be a good place to put aspect ratio controls also.  They all shift the image in some way.

Completely agree. Add the length of each title underneath the name and you're on a winner!

+1

[raym]

Hi Matt, when u make the changes to Titles (add title lengths, Enter to choose,.... Hint hint) perhaps you could also:-

- add the current playing title name to the time bar

- make it so down arrow ALWAYS brings up the time bar and up arrow ALWAYS brings up the last used OSD menu. I use the time bar a lot but MC doesn't seem to remember that it was the last item used (the next time I check it).

Cheers.

[jmone]

We were watching one of those poorly mastered BD's (Bourne Identity) where the forced subtitle track is a separate track, and it is towards the end of a very long list of subtitles.  As Matt asked, we tried using the new OSD to get to this but I was getting plenty of yelling about missing stuff as we arrowed through the long list with the video jerking with each change.  In the end it was quicker and easier to use the keyboard for the Right Click menu (see pic).  One idea mentioned (not yet implemented) for this OSD that would have made it better is if the Subtitles were grouped by Lang in this OSD with the preferred Lang being the first group, that way I would have only had to go through 3 or 4, not over a dozen.

Thanks
Nathan

PS - I did not even mention once the DVD Style menu
PPS - Woops 

[MrHaugen]

I never have the option of so many subs, but I can understand the frustration.
Even such a simple change as to make enter/ok activate the subs would be an improvement.
I don't like that the options are forced upon you when you right or left click. Especially when it makes the video jump around.

[gvanbrunt]

I don't like that the options are forced upon you when you right or left click. Especially when it makes the video jump around.

+1

This should not happen for subs, video or audio streams.

[jmone]

Ugggg.....  I'm away with work, and got a Text from a guest saying my wife had "broken" the HTPC, so as the prime MC Help Desk I gave them a call.  They were trying to watch Bourne 3 but the audio track was the Directors Commentary (could have been "remembered" from a previous play, or maybe they tried to change the subs and got the wrong menu option - who knows).  They had tried to change it one their own but was getting no where.  I tried guiding my wife on how to change the stream with the RC but MC then hung.  Got her to reboot.  MC then loaded the blank "default" library not the Library Server.  Got her to press esc to go back to Std View ... MC then hung again.  As the frustration level grew she then put on my daughter.  Got her to reboot, ESC back to STD View to select the Library Server, then CNTL+4 back to TheaterView, select and play the video, then Pause, then use the right click menu to select the correct audio lang then press play.  It took 20mins of faffing around and plenty of "we will wait to you are home" / "why can't we have a normal Blu-ray player" type comments. 

On this forum we all love what a PC can do VS CE devices, but on a dedicated HTPC the aim of TheaterView is to abstract this and present a CE style interface.  Tonight MC failed.  Why oh why they could not just have press the "Menu" key on the RC and select the audio / sub track etc from a single pop-up menu LIKE EVERY OTHER CE DEVICE EVER MADE is absolutely and utterly beyond me.

Cranky
Nathan   

[MrHaugen]

As for the hang, I do not think that this would be fixed with a second menu. I for one hate all that resembles DVD and Bluray menus... I do not understand the fascination. Could you, or those that have a problem navigating with 4 buttons, explain why it's so complicated? It might help to create a more logical way of navigating. I find it rather intuitive as it is now, but I might be to attuned to Theater View to see the problems. Only thing needed imo, is a few tweaks as to activation of certain items, and perhaps some rules as to what up and down arrow does. Perhaps also an option to remove unwanted pages from the OSD.

[gvanbrunt]

Could you, or those that have a problem navigating with 4 buttons, explain why it's so complicated? It might help to create a more logical way of navigating.

I think Jmone provided a very clear explanation: Average people expect and know how to use a full screen menu. They don't know how to use the mini menu despite being shown how etc. I've seen this first hand many times myself as well. And I believe the constant "auto selecting" of streams leads to crashes. At the very least it increases the chances.

It should be a moot point. There is no reason there can't be both styles of menus.

[Matt]

Ugggg.....  I'm away with work, and got a Text from a guest saying my wife had "broken" the HTPC, so as the prime MC Help Desk I gave them a call.  They were trying to watch Bourne 3 but the audio track was the Directors Commentary (could have been "remembered" from a previous play, or maybe they tried to change the subs and got the wrong menu option - who knows).  They had tried to change it one their own but was getting no where.  I tried guiding my wife on how to change the stream with the RC but MC then hung.  Got her to reboot.  MC then loaded the blank "default" library not the Library Server.  Got her to press esc to go back to Std View ... MC then hung again.  As the frustration level grew she then put on my daughter.  Got her to reboot, ESC back to STD View to select the Library Server, then CNTL+4 back to TheaterView, select and play the video, then Pause, then use the right click menu to select the correct audio lang then press play.  It took 20mins of faffing around and plenty of "we will wait to you are home" / "why can't we have a normal Blu-ray player" type comments.  

Would it make you feel any better if we awarded you the 'Beta Tester of the Month' award?

I sympathize with the frustration, but I believe hangs or crashes are separate from the OSD design discussion.  And they're a big part of the frustration in this story.  

I hope the hangs switching to Standard View get fixed today.

[MrHaugen]

I would not mind having an alternative menu, even though I would never use it. But with that said, it does not fully answer my question. Was it the first time they used MC? Did they not know there there was a menu available? Did they get lost in the menu? Did they not know how to do selections or how to activate things? My point is that there's several things that could be done to improve what's already here. Why bury the problems instead of solving them?

There's no menu when hitting the menu button (if not playing a DVD). What about an option of defaulting the menu command to bring the OSD up at the Audio and Sub selection page, and keep the menu up until the user hit menu again or the back/cancel button? At least increasing the time it's active. In case there is a real DVD menu available, use that one? Something like that. Just a quick suggestion. This would probably remove some of the problem people are having.

Next, as we've mentioned, you could remove auto activation on some items as audio and sub selection. That would reduce skipping and possible crashes.

When things such as these are fixed or improved, and people still have a problem, then I'll support a second menu option.

[jmone]

Gents, much of hits debate is missing the point.  Like 90% of the users on this forum we are Male Geeks (well some of you are nerds  ) and have no issues with adapting to various UI paradigms, oddities or knowing what to do to adapt to various issues, hangs, and inconvenience. 

Last nights debacle was complicated by the crashes... but the bottom line is that:
- MC made my wife feel stupid trying to change a simple audio stream
- Same as the time before that trying to find a sub stream.

How may goes do you get with user before they form an opinion?  What do you think her reaction will be to MC next time a stream needs changing, will she?
a) be excited at the coolness of using a PC do do all of this and confidently sail through the "NEW: Improved OSD"
b) ask me to change it
c) watch something on the Sat Box instread
d) put up with the wrong sub stream

.....It will not be a)

You know this debate is not a new one.  We had the same on going "discussion" for years about replacing a list style TV EPG in TheaterView for a Grid and and there was huge reluctance on JR's part to adopt reluctance to adopt the industry std for such things.  Like water torture, after years of nagging we got the Grid EPG and I'm yet to see a post from a single user begging to move back to the old list style.....so I'm sure we DVD Style Menu is coming.....it just may take awhile.

[gvanbrunt]

I really don't understand the opposition to a full menu especially if it is on top of the existing one. Has JRiver tested the OSD on new users and found that they had no issues with it? I find that hard to believe as I see almost everyone that tries it on my HTPC a) struggle with using it and b) complain about it auto selecting streams. The only exceptions are computer geeks such as myself - at least for navigating it. I can't stand the auto selection though.

Maybe in other houses the WAF does not use the HTPC much, but in those that do it is really frustrating to be called over every 10 mins to show them how to select a stream etc. Or having to find the keyboard the wife hides "cause it's ugly" because it is easier than using the remote to go though 30 sub selections and have it hiccup each time.

[raym]

I really don't understand the opposition to a full menu especially if it is on top of the existing one.

Me neither. The OSD is just that. It's not a menu. It's a quick way to get in and SEE stuff but has been expanded over time to also DO stuff. The later does not work reliably for everyone (for reasons already described).

It's not uncommon for CE devices (and other HTPC front-ends for that matter) to offer a similar "quick-menu" which is what we have today. But that little "menu" button on my remote should activate a more fully-fledged menu system when I need to make more substantial changes.

Cheers.

[MrHaugen]

If it does not take days of development time, sure. Go for it. I don't ming. But please fix the current OSD before you start thinking of another menu.

As we've mentioned, removal of the auto activation of menu items should be the first step. Another thing would be to allow menu to bring up the OSD when there is no other menu, and to default the page to the subs and audio stream menu. Secondly I would look into what order the option pages is. I don't have a video with subs or audio stream here. But I believe that it's currently in this order:
- Volume
- Position
- Image options
- Audio/Sub Selection

I would at least put the Audio/Sub page before the Image options. As people usually hit down buttons because the OSD appears on the bottom of the page. That makes it faster to get to the page most people use. I can't imagine many use the Image options page.

[Jong]

I'm concerned about hijacking the "Menu" button for any new menu. I currently use it to bring up the DVD menu and the list of titles/playlists for blu-ray discs. We need to be able to access both genuine disc menus and any MC menu in any solution.

[jmone]

My view of the "DVD Style" menu may be too limited, so I've started a thread about BD in particular - [beta board link removed by JimH]

[JimH]

bump

[jmone]

My view of the "DVD Style" menu may be too limited, so I've started a thread about BD in particular - [beta board link removed by JimH]

FYI - Here was the first part of that thread:
===================
I've taken a step back with the current frustration about advocating a "DVD Style" menu that lets you access and select the streams you need, but now have come to the conclusion that such a request is still flawed.  The issue actually is related to BD in particular so let me explain:

Pre June 2011 (the Dark Ages): I (like all others) that liked MC but wanted BD support only had a couple of options.  The first of the threads I created on this was back in 2008 and with 30,000+ views is still in the Top 10 thread on this board.  It just detailed how to use DirectShow to play the content from the raw M2TS files (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=44314.0).  Expanding on this, a subsequent thread went through the details on how use MC as the library to then drive a Third Party Player (like TMT or PDVD) for the actual playback (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=55171.0) and this thread has racked up 7,000+ views in the last few years.  While it was not a real integration this did give us full control of the BD disks including Menus.

June 2011 (the Big Leap Forward):  MC Introduces BD support http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=64446.0 thanks to the cooperative development with Nevcairiel.  This feature has been extremely popular and I see at this point of time MC's forum jumped from a few Hundred new accounts per month to Thosands which I assume resulted in a similar jump in sales!  Over the last year we have seen continual improvement for BD support including a native Subtitle support.  All great stuff, but there are a couple of bits missing compared to TMT and PDVD... namely Menu Support and Decryption.  The decryption part is not an issues thanks to progs like AnyDVD HD, but in this Big Leap Forward we actually lost the benefits provided by the likes of TMT and PDVD for Menu Support in presenting the streams as mastered by BD (eg easy identification and selection of Titles, Alternative Endings, Subtitles, Lang etc).  We do have the ability to select them but we don't know what each does as MC is not able to extract this information from the BD BD-J or HDMV menu code but relies of directly accessing the content.

Current State:  BD's support two types of Menus, the most widely used is BD-J (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J) and the simpler but less used HDMV (similar to how DVD do it).  Appart from players like TMT and PDVD, there are several efforts underway based on libbluray to allow BD Menu support including XBMC (http://xbmc.org/natethomas/2012/06/05/xbmc-11-0-may-cycle/) and VLC.  Interestingly, Slysoft has created SpeedMenu (http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=52192) which parses BD-J menus and presents them as HDMV menus so players get a simple access to the main features for Title and Stream selection without needing Java support.  This means XMBC has already has the potential to present a content aware BD Menu for a BD Disc.  Slysoft has also been working on "SlyPlayer" which is due out on "Tuesday" (code for no idea when) that will include Menu support.

Feature Request:  This could be a big dev effort (but I have no idea)... but... (similar to what JR did with Subtitles), is there any appetite to add real BD Menu Support, either full BD-J or like Slysoft has done with AnyDVD HD, a parser that just extracts the required info to then present a much simpler but content aware HDMV style menu.

I'm sure Nevcairiel will have a far better idea of what can be done than I.

Thanks
Nathan

[SpeedD408]

Feature Request:  This could be a big dev effort (but I have no idea)... but... (similar to what JR did with Subtitles), is there any appetite to add real BD Menu Support, either full BD-J or like Slysoft has done with AnyDVD HD, a parser that just extracts the required info to then present a much simpler but content aware HDMV style menu.

I'm sure Nevcairiel will have a far better idea of what can be done than I.

Thanks
Nathan

I'n my opinion, you either build full support for the real thing or you don't touch it.  Half heart'd attempts to make something work just get people frustrated.

John.

[HTPC4ME]

maybe second roller can have additional options not yet implemented in theaterview

download youtube video, add to fav's, add to playlist.

cut/trim video movie/clip (to share family moments), share to facebook, myspace, photobucket, send to email etc...

view thumbs of video as you move position (similiar to youtube when you drag position dot to the right and left.

[LeoB]

There are many great suggestions in this thread, but I like this one the best:

There should be the option of always keeping the OSD within the video area. My screen resolution and my video area are different and I've seen it different on several other setups.

I would like the progress bar and volume bar to be at the bottom of the screen and accessed with a down arrow/button.

I would like the other menu items to be at the top of the screen and all visible with an up arrow/button. Moving right or left through the menu would then display their associated options below the menu and listed either horizontally or vertically. In my example I show them horizontally, but I think in practice I might actually like a vertical listing better. The horizontal placement has less impact on the video image, though.

This method is super quick to see all options at a glance without having to toggle through everything. As you then go left/right you can see all the sub-options for each heading.

However, I’d like to develop this suggestion a little bit more.

In the attached file there are three sketches of the OSD with the vertical listings:

-   Nothing expanded. We see all critical information about the current video at one place and can make a decision on the necessary adjustments.

-   Title field expanded by highlighting it with the right/left arrow button and then pressing “down arrow”.

-   Aspect Ratio field expanded.

1.   The advantage of this style of OSD is in the fact that all critical information can be viewed by just pressing “up arrow”. Based on this info all necessary adjustments can be made further on.

2.   Every field of the OSD expands down, and all available streams/options are listed.

3.   Rarely accessed functions, like Screen Position Controls or Video Controls (Color, Saturation, etc.) are grouped into sub menus, which pop-up in place of the main OSD when the respective item is selected by pressing ENTER key.