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[pluto]

Could one or two folks please confirm what they believe to be the correct 'formula' for playing stereo material as mono, using the DSP tools available in the Parametric Equalizer section.

For the avoidance of doubt, I mean the mixing of the two stereo legs (lets call them A and B) in equal measure and playing the combined result out of both outputs. For now, let's not get bogged down with the fact that a certain amount of level reduction will also be required - that's not the issue.

Thanks!

[Matt]

For one channel output, select "1 channel (mono)" in DSP Studio > Output Format > Channels, and let JRSS do the proper downmix.

To do it with Parametric Equalizer, stereo downmixing to one channel is simply Mono = Left + Right.  You do this with DSP Studio > Parametric Equalizer > Mix channels > Add.

To avoid any chance of clipping, you would attenuate by -6.02dB after the addition.  That attenuation is conservative -- less is probably required for almost all real world signals.

[pluto]

To do it with Parametric Equalizer, stereo downmixing to one channel is simply Mono = Left + Right.  You do this with DSP Studio > Parametric Equalizer > Mix channels > Add.

Hi Matt - I thought you would say this - but it doesn't actually appear to do this - in fact, it does exactly what the description says ("add source i.e. left to destination i.e. right") but this isn't what's required for equally derived central mono (in a stereo 'environment').

What actually happens is the left channel content appears on both outputs (which is correct) but the right channel content remains purely on the right.

I suspect the same anomaly exists for the subtract option which is useful when playing stuff that is out of phase.

[Matt]

You could add a second filter to mute the other channel or clone it from the one that's now a sum.

But if you're doing this, it means you have two (or more) output channels so I'm sort of confused as to why you're doing mixing to mono at all.

[pluto]

Matt - the reasons are quite immaterial but, for instance,

• Some badly made stereo recordings sound better in mono
• In the pro world, stereo is sometimes really "two track" and for office listening you want to listen in mono
• Professionally, it is useful to hear how something sounds in mono - being able to switch to mono with just a mouse click would be useful, if it worked properly
• It's nice to listen to mono material out of both loudspeakers so it can be judged in the same context as stereo material

Need I continue? Suffice it to say that the ability to easily (and momentarily) listen to stereo material in mono can be very useful - I thought that this was the intended purpose of the mix > add DSP function.

[Matt]

So if you want mono, played as stereo, you would just use this stack of filters:
Add Right to Left.
Clone Left to Right.
Adjust volume (optional)

[pluto]

Thanks for that - I had worked out something similar myself.

Any chance of a facility to save multiple presets within the DSP system for rapid recall of different setups?

[glynor]

Thanks for that - I had worked out something similar myself.

Any chance of a facility to save multiple presets within the DSP system for rapid recall of different setups?

This exists.  They're called Zones.

[pluto]

This exists.  They're called Zones.

Indeed - however, do you not think that 'save' & 'load' options added to the DSP dialogue would be a simpler and more direct approach?

In this instance the zones system appears a rather large sledgehammer to crack a fairly small nut.

[glynor]

Indeed - however, do you not think that 'save' & 'load' options added to the DSP dialogue would be a simpler and more direct approach?

In this instance the zones system appears a rather large sledgehammer to crack a fairly small nut.

Zones are simply sets of settings that can be applied and used independently.  While the system was designed (originally) to provide "real multi-zone audio" setups, it isn't limited to those uses (and I don't even know if "most" people use them for that).  They are presets of settings.

Having a separate system for just the DSP would be redundant.  While I would like better abilities to save/duplicate Zones themselves, I'm not sure what the issue is with setting up two separate zones.  It would accomplish exactly what you want, and they can be activated in all sorts of ways (automatically, by hotkey, by menu commands, and by command line, among many other means).

[pluto]

I'm not sure what the issue is with setting up two separate zones

It's just an over-complicated faff-about to accomplish a very simple task!

In any case, I disagree with your assertion that having a 'save' system for the DSP stack would be redundant. I would actually like to be able to save a few tens of different DSP settings to assist with various comparisons needed from time to time, used in different orders and combinations. The zone system is far too unwieldy to manage that.

The option to save & name the current DSP state, together with the option to delete and rename existing saves cannot be that unrealistic an expectation.

[JimH]

Did you try zones?

You can toggle between them with ctrl-T.  It's not very complicated.

[pluto]

Did you try zones?

Absolutely - several times and on each occasion it proves to be too big a faff!

It's probably OK for toggling between two (perhaps three) fairly stable setups, but not when the requirement varies by the hour (and is seldom exactly the same as last time). I grant you, what I do is probably not entirely what was envisaged when the program was designed, but that's the penalty you play for a nice flexible design! 

[DoubtingThomas]

It would be very useful to be able to save many DSP settings and then be able to apply them to individual tracks as an "attribute".

Some tracks have way too much bass, so I'd create a few lower bass DSP settings and save them and then apply them to those bass heavy tracks.

It would then be seamless during playback, with MC auto switching between DSP saved setting on a track by track basis.

Zone Switch does not work for this desired use.

[glynor]

It would be very useful to be able to save many DSP settings and then be able to apply them to individual tracks as an "attribute".

You can do this.

MC18 supports automatic Zone Switching.  You can auto-activate Zones based on any tag in the MC Library (including [Name] if you want, though this seems crazy).

Absolutely - several times and on each occasion it proves to be too big a faff!

It's probably OK for toggling between two (perhaps three) fairly stable setups, but not when the requirement varies by the hour (and is seldom exactly the same as last time). I grant you, what I do is probably not entirely what was envisaged when the program was designed, but that's the penalty you play for a nice flexible design! 

Please explain your exact issues with the system.  I suspect this might be a not-realizing the capabilities of the system kind of thing.

Zones are DSP profiles.  So, it is weird to ask for DSP profiles, when we already have them (Zones are a super-set of DSP Profiles, but if you make all the other covered settings identical, mostly Options > Audio and Options > Video, then they'll behave just like profiles for the DSP).

[DoubtingThomas]

You can do this.

MC18 supports automatic Zone Switching.  You can auto-activate Zones based on any tag in the MC Library (including [Name] if you want, though this seems crazy).

Please explain your exact issues with the system.  I suspect this might be a not-realizing the capabilities of the system kind of thing.

Zones are DSP profiles.  So, it is weird to ask for DSP profiles, when we already have them (Zones are a super-set of DSP Profiles, but if you make all the other covered settings identical, mostly Options > Audio and Options > Video, then they'll behave just like profiles for the DSP).

Glynor,

I couldn't get MC to seamlessly zone switch back and forth track to track based on a field entry.

And if it does work, then I lose the original reason for zones.

[mojave]

I would like to have a "Save" and "Save As" option. Currently you can't copy zones or save a zone with a new name which is a big drawback in trying to use them for DSP profiles. This feature would enable the zones to work easier as DSP profiles. Sometimes it takes a while to have to manually enter all settings for a zone including multiple PEQ entries.

[mojave]

Glynor,

I couldn't get MC to seamlessly zone switch back and forth track to track based on a field entry.

And if it does work, then I lose the original reason for zones.

It works great for me. You have to make sure you choose to stop playback in the other zones. By using formulas you can also do some really neat things with zones. For example, MrC helped me make a time-dependent zone so if I am watching a movie after a certain time it can use a zone with adaptive volume.

[glynor]

I would like to have a "Save" and "Save As" option. Currently you can't copy zones or save a zone with a new name which is a big drawback in trying to use them for DSP profiles. This feature would enable the zones to work easier as DSP profiles. Sometimes it takes a while to have to manually enter all settings for a zone including multiple PEQ entries.

I've said it before and I'll probably say it again but...

+1

[DoubtingThomas]

It works great for me. You have to make sure you choose to stop playback in the other zones. By using formulas you can also do some really neat things with zones. For example, MrC helped me make a time-dependent zone so if I am watching a movie after a certain time it can use a zone with adaptive volume.

So you have many tracks loaded into PlayingNow... and based on zone rules, while playing PlayingNow, MediaCenter will seamlessly switch back and forth between zones?

I know we all went over this before and it would not work with PlayingNow.  Does it?

[MrC]

So you have many tracks loaded into PlayingNow... and based on zone rules, while playing PlayingNow, MediaCenter will seamlessly switch back and forth between zones?

I know we all went over this before and it would not work with PlayingNow.  Does it?

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=77650.msg527865#msg527865

[DoubtingThomas]

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=77650.msg527865#msg527865

Thanks, the confirms for me what I tested myself and what was discussed on other threads when I tried this.

Zone Switch does not work with PlayingNow (by design per Matt)

Which goes back to a desire to be able to name and store one or more DSP settings and apply them on a track by track basis.  Matt has already said that won't happen in v18.

[pluto]

I've said it before and I'll probably say it again but...

It is the apparent inability to create a zone on a "clone this one" basis that lies at the heart of my antipathy to the zone approach to the task of saving multiple DSP stacks.

[glynor]

Thanks, the confirms for me what I tested myself and what was discussed on other threads when I tried this.

Zone Switch does not work with PlayingNow (by design per Matt)

Which goes back to a desire to be able to name and store one or more DSP settings and apply them on a track by track basis.  Matt has already said that won't happen in v18.

Perhaps I just don't understand (as I haven't used the ZoneSwitch feature for much, and certainly nothing like this).

I thought he was only talking about when Playback is started from an existing Playing Now list.  What you're saying is that Zone Switch doesn't trigger if you have a mixed playlist and you start it from a View, Playlist, or Smartlist in MC?

So, if you have one Zone defined with DSP settings for Classical music, and another for Rock, and then you play a mixed Smartlist in MC, it won't switch back and forth?  I think that would counteract a large part of the point of the feature, so are you sure?  As I said, I haven't used it for anything of the sort (just to handle audio and video separately, and I don't play those in the same lists typically).

I can test it, I suppose, but I'm busy.  It seems like he was only talking about when you "double click" on an existing Playing Now list, or directly modify Playing Now in some way (Send To > Play > Playing Now (Zone) style).

[DoubtingThomas]

Perhaps I just don't understand (as I haven't used the ZoneSwitch feature for much, and certainly nothing like this).

I thought he was only talking about when Playback is started from an existing Playing Now list.  What you're saying is that Zone Switch doesn't trigger if you have a mixed playlist and you start it from a View, Playlist, or Smartlist in MC?

So, if you have one Zone defined with DSP settings for Classical music, and another for Rock, and then you play a mixed Smartlist in MC, it won't switch back and forth?  I think that would counteract a large part of the point of the feature, so are you sure?  As I said, I haven't used it for anything of the sort (just to handle audio and video separately, and I don't play those in the same lists typically).

I can test it, I suppose, but I'm busy.  It seems like he was only talking about when you "double click" on an existing Playing Now list, or directly modify Playing Now in some way (Send To > Play > Playing Now (Zone) style).

I never use playlists to play from... I just add to PlayingNow and let it run...

ZoneSwitch will not cause a zone switch when playing from PlayingNow.

Therefore I can't use it to switch between DSP "zones" when using MediaCenter the way I use it.

By design, starting playback from a Playing Now list, which is tied to a specific zone, won't engage ZoneSwitch.

[kstuart]

I never use playlists to play from... I just add to PlayingNow and let it run...

ZoneSwitch will not cause a zone switch when playing from PlayingNow.

Therefore I can't use it to switch between DSP "zones" when using MediaCenter the way I use it.

+1 on all three points (although it is not a big issue at the moment for me).

[DoubtingThomas]

+1 on all three points (although it is not a big issue at the moment for me).

Matt understands the desire... for the ability to save DSP settings and apply on a track by track basis.  He says it won't happen in v18. 

For me.. .some tracks just have too much bass for my sub settings.  So the ability to store DSP settings and apply on a track by track basis would be great.  The Cowboy Junkies have some tracks that rattle the springs in my windows with my "normal" subwoofer settings.

[Matt]

We did some under-the-covers work to support loading / saving audio settings with v18.

For a while, I thought it might be used to power what became ZoneSwitch.

We decided instead to use zones as they include the audio output hardware.  This allows things like sending DSD to a different DAC, etc.  It also provides a more deterministic behavior since a zone that works will always work (it's not different per-file).

I understand that saving and loading DSP presets would be useful.  I'm just not sure how to do the user experience in a way that won't lead to trouble (ie. Q: 'Why can't I play these files!' A: 'Oh, I had the DSP settings configured to a sample rate that won't work for those three files.')

[mwillems]

We did some under-the-covers work to support loading / saving audio settings with v18.

For a while, I thought it might be used to power what became ZoneSwitch.

We decided instead to use zones as they include the audio output hardware.  This allows things like sending DSD to a different DAC, etc.  It also provides a more deterministic behavior since a zone that works will always work (it's not different per-file).

I understand that saving and loading DSP presets would be useful.  I'm just not sure how to do the user experience in a way that won't lead to trouble (ie. Q: 'Why can't I play these files!' A: 'Oh, I had the DSP settings configured to a sample rate that won't work for those three files.')

There seem to be two separate issues in this thread:  

1)The inability to copy or save DSP settings (with or without zones) and
2) Real time zone switching during the playing of a playlist

Number 1) could be integrated (I think) just by creating a "copy zone" command that would create a new zone that is a duplicate of an existing zone.  It could also be accomplished by an "export zone settings" function that would be analogous to the library settings backup, but that would require an "import zone settings from file" type command to make it useful and would be more complicated.  

I think a "copy zone" function would do everything I need in terms of allowing me to back up experimental DSP settings on the fly, and wouldn't work enormous mischief in the user experience.  In fact it might be less mischief-creating than the current setup as it often takes me a while to get a new zone working correctly because I need to track down all the incidental playback settings and conform them to my system settings.  It seems like a copied zone would be *more* likely to work as expected immediately than a completely fresh zone because it would be duplicating a known functional configuration.

That certainly wouldn't solve the second point, and there may be some weaknesses to the approach that I'm not seeing, but it seems like that would be the "easy" way to support DSP setting saving and loading.

[DoubtingThomas]

We did some under-the-covers work to support loading / saving audio settings with v18.

For a while, I thought it might be used to power what became ZoneSwitch.

We decided instead to use zones as they include the audio output hardware.  This allows things like sending DSD to a different DAC, etc.  It also provides a more deterministic behavior since a zone that works will always work (it's not different per-file).

I understand that saving and loading DSP presets would be useful.  I'm just not sure how to do the user experience in a way that won't lead to trouble (ie. Q: 'Why can't I play these files!' A: 'Oh, I had the DSP settings configured to a sample rate that won't work for those three files.')

Matt,

Maybe saved DSP settings should not include audio output hardware settings. ??

For me, saving one or more EQ settings to be applied on a track by track basis would be great.

Anyway, I hope you keep thinking about this for v19 ....

[pluto]

I understand that saving and loading DSP presets would be useful

With that knowledge, I'm happy to wait for you to come up with something.

I'm just not sure how to do the user experience in a way that won't lead to trouble

This is a weapon and it's possible to do something stupid with it. I don't think you can change that. But is it really any worse than the situation extant? Most users (I'd have thought) are unlikely to press 'save' on a DSP stack that isn't actually working. But it's already been observed that the settings in 'Output Format' are typically related to the audio hardware, so it might be best were this not included in the stack save or load. This idea has already been implicitly acknowledged by the fact that its position in the stack cannot be changed, unlike the other DSP modules.

Perhaps a very easily accessible 'Master DSP in/out' button (except for 'output format' for reasons already discussed) would be useful to get unwary users out of DSP hell 

[Mike48]

Matt,

Maybe saved DSP settings should not include audio output hardware settings. ??

For me, saving one or more EQ settings to be applied on a track by track basis would be great.

Anyway, I hope you keep thinking about this for v19 ....

+1 

I was surprised to see that EQ states couldn't be named, saved, and recalled. It would be tremendously useful.