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[Yaobing]

MC19 includes a new feature, Television channel stacking.

The feature is useful for people using multiple types of tuners (i.e. ATSC, QAM, STB, OpenCable, or outside of North America, DVB-T, DVB-C, DVB-S, STB etc.).

Channels of different types that show the same programming contents can be grouped (stacked) so only one channel will be shown in UI (EPG).  

Right now, you can only manually stack channels.  In the future, we will offer GUI for the task and may offer some limited automation, but my sense is manual intervention will always be needed.  The task of manually stacking channel may be very time-consuming, especially for people with large number of channels (with cable service for example). - GUI was implemented in 19.0.84.  Tools > Options > Television > Group Channels...

Note that in some channel types (cable or satellite for instance) multiple channels may carry the same contents.  For example, my cable provider serves my local NBC ATSC channel on channel 5, as "WMAQ", and on channel 188, as "WMAQ-DT".  These channels should not be stacked.  If MC can not find a tuner at a given time for channel 5, it can not find a tuner for channel 188 either, and the converse is true.  So one of these channels should simply be hidden and never used.

Here are the steps to take to accomplish channel stacking.

0.  Make sure all tuners have their corresponding channels available in MC, i.e. make sure you scan all channels (over-the-air, cable, CableCARD etc.)

1.  Hide all channels that you know you will never use, including the duplicate channels mentioned above.

2.  Create a "TV channels" smart list.  The instructions are here.  Make sure "Keywords" and "TV Tuner Input Type" columns are shown in the smartlist so you can easily identify the channels.

3.  Select all channels that show the same contents.  For example, "5-1 NBC5-DT" (ATSC), "5-1 E1_2 NB" (QAM), "188 WMAQ-DT" (OpenCable), and "188 WMAQ-DT" (Set-Top-Box).  Right-click on the one that you would like to be the stack top, and choose Stacks > Stack.  Refresh the smartlist and you will see only the stack top is shown, as the stack is collapsed by default.  You can expand or collapse the stack any time,  but either way in any EPG view only the stack top will show up.

4.  Repeat 3. for all other channel groups.


Note 1:

For now, there is no way for you to order the channels in a stack, other than choosing which channel to be on the stack top.  Each time you choose a program to play or to record, MC will walk through the channels in a stack one by one, starting with the stack top, to find a tuner that is suitable.  In the future perhaps some ways of ordering the channels should be provided. - Fixed in 19.0.92

Note 2:

Conflict resolution does not work correctly with channel stacking.  You will get false conflict warnings as you schedule recordings.  I am working on it.  -- Fixed in 19.0.11

[glynor]

Exciting! 

[gtgray]

This is a feature I don't ever want or have a need for. I.E I have PBS SD Cable at channel 8,  Channel 8.1 is PBS HD OTA, 8.2 is SD OTA, 608 is Cable HD and so forth. I never watch the cable provided channel when an equivalent OTA is available. OTA quality is always better than cable unless there is an antenna farm down or something very, very rare is effecting OTA transmission.

I don't object to optional channel stacking as a concept but Tivo and WMC do it the way it works now and I just can't possibly see the value add. On the rare occasion once every couple of years I may have trouble with a local and it somehow it is working on cable so I tune the channel on cable. Comcast has a totally intuitive channel numbering system for its retransmitted locals. I don't want the system choosing which version of the channel I watch, it just seems silly. As long as sub-channels are in the guide what exactly is the point?
8, 8.1, 8.2, 608? I think I can make that choice I don't really need that automated.

I guess there is somebody this is helpful for but their configuration must be more esoteric than just OTA and CableCard.

Fix the guide so it knows when the channel exits it centers on last played and current time... channel stacking is a waste of effort from my perspective.

[Yaobing]

The main point is allocation of tuners.  Suppose you have only one OTA tuner and you want two channels recorded at the same channel, you would resort to using your cable tuner.

[gtgray]

The main point is allocation of tuners.  Suppose you have only one OTA tuner and you want two channels recorded at the same channel, you would resort to using your cable tuner.

I guess it benefits someone. I have a total of 8 tuners, 4 OTA and 4 Cablecard.

[glynor]

As long as sub-channels are in the guide what exactly is the point?

Because I don't want to see all those "duplicates" in the guide.

I just want to see one copy of each "logical channel" (abstracting the physical "layer") and have the system decide which tuner and "physical channel" is best to use at a given moment.  Give the tuners priorities (use X unless X is busy, then use Y, and waterfall down).

In fact, I don't even really want to see channel "numbers" at all.  Just "content sources".  Abstract the rest away via MC's database and tags.

The confusing, archaic, and (often) illogical channel mappings are one of the major problems with modern TV.  Why the heck should I have to learn that PBS is channel 8, but 8.1 is the "good one", and remember that forever (and teach my wife and two year old) in 2013?  It is absurd.  And with cable and QAM, it is even worse...  Via analog, PBS is channel 12.  Via QAM, my "PBS" station is 76.4 or something, but that's the crappy SD feed, and the "HD" one is something like 172.6 (I'm making up numbers because I'm too lazy to look, but it is like this).  NBC is 172.5 and FOX is 172.4.  But ABC is something completely different like 97.3, and there's also a weird duplicate at 78.2 (that seems identical for all intents and purposes, but maybe they're slightly different feeds?).  And then you throw in my Digital Cable box, and I have Channel 12 for PBS but that's the SD copy (why is that even still there?) and the one you really want is 712 (the HD version).

It is a mess.  I want to figure it out once, set it up in a mapping system, and only ever see one "copy" of each in the guide.  Let the system remember, and decide what tuner to use based on:

1. What "version" has the best quality.
2. What tuners are currently available.
3. How much I care about the quality for a given recording (so I can set Caillou and Sesame Street to record using the analog tuners which otherwise aren't often used, and save the HD-PVRs and QAM tuners for HBO and AMC).

[kstuart]

That's a good new feature which will be helpful to some users.

But actually, the whole concept of a "channel" is becoming obsolete.

It comes from a 1960s reality where video only arrived on a broadcast frequency, and each broadcaster was like a movie studio - a particular identity known for a particular style.   So, you might like NBC more than ABC, so at 8pm, you turned on the NBC channel.

Nowadays you want to see "Person of Interest" because it is an entertaining Jonathan Nolan series - not because it is on CBS.

I think eventually the "Netflix" model of searching for the program, and then click to watch it, will take over.  (But I don't see any barriers-to-entry for anyone with money, so I don't see Netflix dominating TV viewing.)

But it is hard to remove any concept from human culture.  Look at "paying for minutes" on your phone.  That came from the situation in the 1930s, where you picked up the phone (which had no buttons or dials), and that caused a light to flash on the operators panel, and the operator listening to your phone number request, and connected plugs to a circuit that could connect to another operator at that number.  SO, since operators cost the phone company a certain amount per hour - and thus per minute - phone calls did actually cost them per minute that you talked.

Nowadays, if you don't use your phone at all, or talk on it 24 hours a day, it costs the phone company the same - since there is no longer operators that cost per hour.  But since the "phone calls cost per minute" idea is established, it is now impossible to get rid of it (especially since it enriches the phone companies).

[glynor]

But actually, the whole concept of a "channel" is becoming obsolete.

Totally agreed.

It is a matter of time before Apple, or Netflix*, or Google (or someone) starts signing some "big names"  and, (then), the real "goal":  letting content producers "self-publish" a series directly to online audiences, ala the App Store.  Then, the whole idea of studios becomes little more than:  (a) banks, (b) talent agencies, and (c) PR firms.  That's valuable, but they've lost their most valuable asset: exclusive control of a viable content distribution network.  And they should be compensated accordingly.

More, smaller, studios.  And fewer "executives" getting in the way and deciding what the "market" wants and doesn't want.

That's what the entire RIAA/MPAA "battle" has been about from the get-go.  Piracy is a red-herring.  They look and saw a future where JJ Abrams doesn't need them at all anymore, and can take all of the profits, shopping around for the best options for the services he needs.  He already has, sort-of, that power.  But give it to everyone, and it is a different ball of wax.

* Netflix has started.  Most of their "original series" are junk, but there was that one...

[kstuart]

there was that one

I assume you mean "House of Cards" ?   One of an endless series of remakes of overseas series for US audiences - The Killing, Homeland, Top Gear, and now The Bridge come to mind and there are many others (including the remake "The Departed" of the movie "Infernal Affairs").

Somehow the remake is almost always worse... Homeland seems to be the one exception, probably because the original series' creator was involved in the new one, and they actually made a different style of series.

[gtgray]

Because I don't want to see all those "duplicates" in the guide.

I just want to see one copy of each "logical channel" (abstracting the physical "layer") and have the system decide which tuner and "physical channel" is best to use at a given moment.  Give the tuners priorities (use X unless X is busy, then use Y, and waterfall down).

In fact, I don't even really want to see channel "numbers" at all.  Just "content sources".  Abstract the rest away via MC's database and tags.

The confusing, archaic, and (often) illogical channel mappings are one of the major problems with modern TV.  Why the heck should I have to learn that PBS is channel 8, but 8.1 is the "good one", and remember that forever (and teach my wife and two year old) in 2013?  It is absurd.  And with cable and QAM, it is even worse...  Via analog, PBS is channel 12.  Via QAM, my "PBS" station is 76.4 or something, but that's the crappy SD feed, and the "HD" one is something like 172.6 (I'm making up numbers because I'm too lazy to look, but it is like this).  NBC is 172.5 and FOX is 172.4.  But ABC is something completely different like 97.3, and there's also a weird duplicate at 78.2 (that seems identical for all intents and purposes, but maybe they're slightly different feeds?).  And then you throw in my Digital Cable box, and I have Channel 12 for PBS but that's the SD copy (why is that even still there?) and the one you really want is 712 (the HD version).

It is a mess.  I want to figure it out once, set it up in a mapping system, and only ever see one "copy" of each in the guide.  Let the system remember, and decide what tuner to use based on:

1. What "version" has the best quality.
2. What tuners are currently available.
3. How much I care about the quality for a given recording (so I can set Caillou and Sesame Street to record using the analog tuners which otherwise aren't often used, and save the HD-PVRs and QAM tuners for HBO and AMC).

HD-PVRS and QAM.... well that explains a great deal. Your whole approach to TV signal capture is dated no wonder you need stacking.

You can achieve much the same by hiding a channel if you must. QAM is a total mess and if that is what you are trying to fix it is not a general problem. It is fast disappearing. Most larger cable providers like Comcast don't even have non-encrypted content anymore.... You need stacking because you are trying to fix what is essentially a bunch of cobbled together scenarios. Take a look at how a Tivo HD or Tivo Premiere manages things. It just works and has tremendous WAF. WMC does it the same. For anyone who thinks that JR MC has a better more intuitive DVR implementation than Tivo, I beg to disagree. Analog, QAM and devices like HD-PVR are corner cases and as time goes by the corner they are in gets smaller and smaller.

[glynor]

HD-PVRS and QAM.... well that explains a great deal. Your whole approach to TV signal capture is dated no wonder you need stacking.

I can't use CableCard.  Time Warner sets the Copy Never flag on everything but broadcast TV.  Having DRM on my video files is NOT an option, sorry.  I have absolutely no interest in any devices that are going to lock my content to just one device, thanks.  I'd rather just not record it.

And I live way too far from most of the local transmitters to use OTA reception (the FOX affiliate is 250 miles+ away, for example).  Besides, the channels I care about the most are AMC and HBO, which aren't available via OTA.

The problem is completely solved, just not in MC (which I don't use for PVR duties -- yet).  SageTV abstracts the channel guide pretty well, though I think MC could go even further.  But, with my current setup, the guide shows only one copy of each logical channel (with crap like the Home Shopping Network filtered out), and it automatically picks the best tuner to use (which is generally QAM > HDPVR > Analog).  It isn't rocket surgery.

My wife quite likes our setup.  She never even SEES the guide (which is a huge win).  If she wants to schedule a show to record, she searches on Sage's WebUI.  For watching, we just use MC's Theater View, and everything is in there, nicely tagged, organized, and filtered.

(Oh, and I think the UI on the current Tivo boxes is laughably bad.  Way, way, WAY too slow, and the UI is a mishmash of old and new elements seemingly thrown together.  Not as terrible as the cable company provided DVRs, of course, but that's no standard to live up to.)

[gtgray]

I would add that the favorites guide for most part eliminates the need for stacking.

I may be unique in that I still hear the old refrain about 500 channels and nothing on. I am target for ala carte one day should the providers ever realize some of us really don't want to pay a $100 plus for TV a month.

I don't buy premium content nor do I care much about it. I also watch a lot of news ( including sports), network dramas and PBS. I still think the recording interface on MC is not ideal. If you go to the guide and set a channel to record then go to an adjacent channel to watch, why does MC force you to confirm the recording later when it starts and pull you away from the channel you are watching.

[Yaobing]

If you go to the guide and set a channel to record then go to an adjacent channel to watch why does MC force you to confirm the recording later when it starts and pull you away from the channel you are watching.

I'd like to know why this happens to you.  It should happen only if MC can not find an idle tuner to do recording.  Assuming you were recording an ATSC channel, with 4 ATSC tuners, you can have 4 programs recorded at the same time, or 3 recorded while one tuner is used for watching live.

If your live show is interrupted and you believe you do not have 4 recordings going on, we need to investigate.  This has not happened to me.

Assuming you do have 4 or more recordings schedule for the same or overlapping time slots, then your CableCARD tuners can be used.  This is where channel stacking is useful.

[JimH]

I'd like to know why this happens to you.  It should happen only if MC can not find an idle tuner to do recording.  Assuming you were recording an ATSC channel, with 4 ATSC tuners, you can have 4 programs recorded at the same time, or 3 recorded while one tuner is used for watching live.

Timing?  Maybe the tuners don't respond quickly enough?  Maybe MC could wait a little longer?

[gtgray]

I'd like to know why this happens to you.  It should happen only if MC can not find an idle tuner to do recording.  Assuming you were recording an ATSC channel, with 4 ATSC tuners, you can have 4 programs recorded at the same time, or 3 recorded while one tuner is used for watching live.

If your live show is interrupted and you believe you do not have 4 recordings going on, we need to investigate.  This has not happened to me.

Assuming you do have 4 or more recordings schedule for the same or overlapping time slots, then your CableCARD tuners can be used.  This is where channel stacking is useful.

Yao.. I have two of the Dual Silicon Dust HD Homeruns and I am not big on recording. I only typically record something when I know I am going to watching something else at the same time.. 99 percent of my TV viewing is live TV. In fact I have seldom recorded in MC and I just hit this the other night. I had select to record PBS on 8.1 and switched to PBS 8.2 about 10 minutes before recording on 8.1 was to begin. When the alert came up the only thing it would allow to watch was the same program I scheduled to record. Weird thing is that the dialog was in the style you get when you exit Theater View. Three options with one being cancel. I think the options were to continue recording or end recording. Regardless of which I selected it took me back to 8.1. I tried cancel a couple of times but the dialog kept coming back and the resolution began to get really weird like 320x 480 text, very blocky. I was the only watching TV in the house.

[Yaobing]

Did you configure all of your 4 tuners to make sure they are set to the right type?

With 4 tuners configured correctly you would never see that dialog.  As for what happens after you choose one of the options, I can easily simulate the condition and find out whether there is a problem.

[imeric]

Exciting indeed!! Can't wait to try it

[aussie1]

I find Channel stacking useful in my environment.  One question> When I pull up the default Guide in Theater View, it shows all of the channels, not just the channels that are on top of the stack. How do I filter out the channels that are not on top?

[Yaobing]

I find Channel stacking useful in my environment.  One question> When I pull up the default Guide in Theater View, it shows all of the channels, not just the channels that are on top of the stack. How do I filter out the channels that are not on top?

I see there is indeed a problem.  It is because the existing guide data still associate a program with the channel in question.  I need to change it so the channel that is not the top of a stack will not be used.

In the mean time, you need to clear out your old guide data and reload them.

[Yaobing]

I edited my initial post on the top of this thread to reflect the fact that the GUI has been implemented.

[aussie1]

Thanks