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[Matt]

Overview
MC19 adds the ability to output any audio as DSD (or 2xDSD) to a DSD-capable DAC.

DSD is an alternative way to describe a sound wave.  More here:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD_Format

The argument for this new feature is that a DAC might do a better job with DSD than PCM.  Certain DAC chips are always running in DSD mode and any incoming PCM will get converted to DSD by the DAC.  If you instead do this conversion with a computer, you may be able to achieve higher quality.

JRiver does not have data to substantiate this argument.  It is based on conversations with DAC manufacturers.  Testing would be interesting.

How To Use
1) Make sure you have a DSD capable DAC

2) Configure the correct output mode in Options > Audio (ASIO is required for 2xDSD)

3) Pick DSD output encoding in DSP Studio > Output Format:


Technical Notes
You will need a reasonably fast computer to use this option.

The PCM to DSD algorithm uses 64-bit floating point for all math (noise shaping, dither, etc.).  Resampling is done using JRiver's audiophile grade resampler.

DSD encoding is only possible during audio playback, not video playback.

The loudness between DSD and PCM may vary, due to the nature of DSD encoding and due to hardware differences.

[BigMac]

Working Great! 

Thank you,

SH

[Alex Peychev]

Hi Matt,

Would it be possible including the real-time DSD output under Options->Output Mode, without enabling the DSP studio?

Also, under Output Mode, the real-time DSD output module can provide the options for ASIO, KS or WASAPI, as well as DSD or DoP streaming mode and DSD64 or DSD128 rates.

I am just thinking about purer DSD output solution.

When DSD real time is enabled, would it be possible playing DSF and DSD ISO files without switching back to a different output mode?

Thanks!
Alex

[Hendrik]

Would it be possible including the real-time DSD output under Options->Output Mode, without enabling the DSP studio?

Converting PCM to DSD requires DSP operations like resampling, so you can't avoid the use of some DSP.

[Alex Peychev]

Converting PCM to DSD requires DSP operations like resampling, so you can't avoid the use of some DSP.

Certainly, I should be aware of this, since I have my own hardware PCM to DSD encoder. But I thought that, if similar to the offline DSD encoder that MC18 already provides, the new real-time encoder will be based on a separate module (that includes SRC, DSM and such), available at the output mode selections, instead of going through the main DSP that has many other features available.

For example, believe or not, even if the DSP Studio is enabled without doing anything, the sound quality is already compromised. Of course, this is the case with my audio system and to my ears. Go figure!

Thanks!

[dan92075]

Real-time PCM2DSD sounds like a really great feature!

Question:

If one is using the DSP functions like equalization, convolution, etc,  do the DSP functions first get applied to the raw PCM,  and then the DSP-massaged PCM gets converted to DSD?

[jackal29a]

Will this PCM2DSD keep the same base freq? for example 44.1K ->2.8/5.6M and 48K ->3.0/6.1M, or will everything be resampled to 2.8/5.6M?

[eliwankenobi]

Will it only be limited to DSD128??

Can it later be changed to DSD256 Please?  There are some DACs like the exaSound e20, YuLong DA8 and Antelpe Audio Zodiac Platinum that can do DSD256. I know there are very few recordings done in DSD256 but support for upsampling to DSD256 would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

[Alex Peychev]

If one is using the DSP functions like equalization, convolution, etc,  do the DSP functions first get applied to the raw PCM,  and then the DSP-massaged PCM gets converted to DSD?

Yes, all "effects" in the PCM domain, then converted to DSD.

[dan92075]

Will it only be limited to DSD128??

Can it later be changed to DSD256 Please?  There are some DACs like the exaSound e20, YuLong DA8 and Antelpe Audio Zodiac Platinum that can do DSD256. I know there are very few recordings done in DSD256 but support for upsampling to DSD256 would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

I second this request - DSD256 would be very desirable!

[dan92075]

One more question about DSP effects:

What happens if the active crossover function is used with PCM2DSD?

Does each PCM stream get converted to a separate DSD stream?

I need an active crossover so would appreciate if someone knows the answer to this question!

[john925]

Is it possible that PCM can be output as DSD in the NATIVE form, not via Dop but Raw-DSD in ASIO?
I know Dop is supported by almost every DSD DAC, but Native DSD in ASIO still has better result than Dop, which might benefit mytek 192 DSD, Teac UD 501, or any DAC that can play DSD in native form.

[Matt]

Is it possible that PCM can be output as DSD in the NATIVE form, not via Dop but Raw-DSD in ASIO?
I know Dop is supported by almost every DSD DAC, but Native DSD in ASIO still has better result than Dop, which might benefit mytek 192 DSD, Teac UD 501, or any DAC that can play DSD in native form.

You can pick DoP (using any hardware direct output) or 2xDSD (using ASIO).

[cubase]

Thanks for this great feature !

I was wondering if you could add a DSD output format in the DLNA server in order to convert PCM to DSD for a network player (Lumin for me).

Thank you
Maxime

[Forgisound]

I bought the MC19. So far I have used the MC17.
I have a few SACD rip albums. Iso format.
I use a Lynx AES16 sound card and Berkeley Alpha DAC.
The MC adjust output format 2xDSD in native format.
However, the MC does not want to play natively. ASIO and WASAPI occur that can not play the 352.8 kHz, 64 bit, 2 chanel files.
I understand that my DAC does not support DSD files, but Foobar2000 without problems play the files (after installing SACD decoder) at sample rates of 88.2 kHz.
MC plays the files only when restricting sample rate to 192 kHz in the output format window, however, it seems to me that the sound is not good.
Is there an optimal solution to the problem?

[JimH]

Please download and install MC18.  It will use your MC19 license if you do a restore.

[6233638]

Is it possible that PCM can be output as DSD in the NATIVE form, not via Dop but Raw-DSD in ASIO?
I know Dop is supported by almost every DSD DAC, but Native DSD in ASIO still has better result than Dop, which might benefit mytek 192 DSD, Teac UD 501, or any DAC that can play DSD in native form.

DoP and DSD should sound exactly the same.

I have a few SACD rip albums. Iso format.
I use a Lynx AES16 sound card and Berkeley Alpha DAC.

This hardware does not support DSD, and is limited to 192kHz PCM.

The MC adjust output format 2xDSD in native format.
However, the MC does not want to play natively. ASIO and WASAPI occur that can not play the 352.8 kHz, 64 bit, 2 chanel files.

The options listed in the first post are for people that want to convert audio to DSD, not from DSD.

I understand that my DAC does not support DSD files, but Foobar2000 without problems play the files (after installing SACD decoder) at sample rates of 88.2 kHz.
MC plays the files only when restricting sample rate to 192 kHz in the output format window, however, it seems to me that the sound is not good.
Is there an optimal solution to the problem?

Change the "Greater than 192,000Hz" option in output format, to one that you prefer. If your hardware supports it, you may want 176.4kHz, or if you want to match Foobar2000, you could select 88.2kHz.

[dnewcomer]

can anyone suggest the correct configuration for the Teac ud-501 and 2xDSD,
I am unable to get this to work.
conversion to DSD 2.8 is working fine ( using DoP )

[HiFiTubes]

can anyone suggest the correct configuration for the Teac ud-501 and 2xDSD,
I am unable to get this to work.
conversion to DSD 2.8 is working fine ( using DoP )

Have you tried the UD-501 in NOS filter mode?

[HiFiTubes]

Hi Matt,

Thanks for adding this feature.

Any chance you will soon support Quad-rate DSD256?

The Exasound and Antelope DSD DACs support this.


thanks.

Overview
MC19 adds the ability to output any audio as DSD (or 2xDSD) to a DSD-capable DAC.

DSD is an alternative way to describe a sound wave.  More here:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD_Format

The argument for this new feature is that a DAC might do a better job with DSD than PCM.  Certain DAC chips are always running in DSD mode and any incoming PCM will get converted to DSD by the DAC.  If you instead do this conversion with a computer, you may be able to achieve higher quality.

JRiver does not have data to substantiate this argument.  It is based on conversations with DAC manufacturers.  Testing would be interesting.

How To Use
1) Make sure you have a DSD capable DAC

2) Configure the correct output mode in Options > Audio (ASIO is required for 2xDSD)

3) Pick DSD output encoding in DSP Studio > Output Format:


Technical Notes
You will need a reasonably fast computer to use this option.

The PCM to DSD algorithm uses 64-bit floating point for all math (noise shaping, dither, etc.).  Resampling is done using JRiver's audiophile grade resampler.

DSD encoding is only possible during audio playback, not video playback.

The loudness between DSD and PCM may vary, due to the nature of DSD encoding and due to hardware differences.

[PeteG]

No problems using MC19 so far PCM/ SACD all sound great (ASIO), but I’ve tried different settings and get distortion while the music is playing using 2XDSD or DoP in Output Encoding.

[PeteG]

No problems using MC19 so far PCM/ SACD all sound great (ASIO), but I’ve tried different settings and get distortion while the music is playing using 2XDSD or DoP in Output Encoding.

I disabled Fidelizer and everything sounds fine now. Don't know why, works fine with jriver normally.

[dnewcomer]

Have you tried the UD-501 in NOS filter mode?

No (then yes, just tried PCM filter off) ,  not sure why the filter mode would have any effect ?

 based on some searching, it appears the asio driver for the teac is only 2.1.
could this be the reason it wont support 2xDSD ?

when I open the asio driver control panel (version 1.02) , it shows the sampling rate as 176000 (instead of
352800 ?)
Note: the error i am receiving is :
Playback Problem. the ASIO device "Teac Asio Driver" does not support the sample rate of 705600 hz

I know the Teac will do dsd128, but I have only been able to play through the TEAC HR player and
get it to work.  Playing the same tracks through JR ( 18 or 19 ) will fail?

[AndyU]

Just to confirm that DSD in DoP format seems to be working fine on my Benchmark DAC2 HGC, and all the right lights light up on the DAC. Splendid!

[6233638]

Just to confirm that DSD in DoP format seems to be working fine on my Benchmark DAC2 HGC, and all the right lights light up on the DAC. Splendid!

Do you get pops and clicks when starting or stopping DoP playback? (bitstreamed or encoded)
MC19 has been worse for me than MC18 in that regard. (Much louder, and more frequent)

[john925]

You can pick DoP (using any hardware direct output) or 2xDSD (using ASIO).

Thanks, Matt. I've got the DSPed DSD output by the setting your mentioned.  But when I chose 2xDSD output in the DSP page, normal DSD files can be played, but in the audio path window, it said the output is still 1xDSD not 2xDSD.  Could I make 1xDSD output as 2xDSD? Thanks!

When I began to play the first DSD file in a DSD music list, there are some twisted sounds at the beginning and then followed by the music (However, the second DSD file would play without any twisted sound.) and a loud pop sound when I stop playing it by press stop button. 

[AndyU]

Do you get pops and clicks when starting or stopping DoP playback? (bitstreamed or encoded)
MC19 has been worse for me than MC18 in that regard. (Much louder, and more frequent)

Yes I have noticed some light ticks when starting a track. More disconcertingly,  I've just been through a patch of clicks and pops or dropouts every 30 secs to 2 mins when converting on the fly. Didn't happen when playing same track pre-converted. Alarmed, I tried a second machine with same problems. Reinstalled MC19 on machine 1, turned DAC on and off a couple of times, and now problem-free apart from the 'tick' a couple of seconds into a track. Not a clue why. Perhaps the DAC was upset. Both Windows 8 machines, one with an SSD.  Will try more when I'm not wanting to listen to music properly. JRMark on one machine 1967, on the second 1136.

Edited to add: Just had another 'click' after I Saved this.

[yasukato]

It's a great feature! Unfortunately, the sound disconnected periodically for every three seconds. Is it a lack of PC's CPU power?

CPU: Core2Quad Q6600 (2.4G)
OS: Windows 7 Pro 64bit
DAC: Korg DS-DAC-10

[absolom91]

Hello

i have a DAC marantz NA11-S1. on the MC18i used the DoP and now the MC19 propose the 2xDSD, for you what is the best setup ?
If i choose the 2xDSD does i need to launch the asio driver ?

Now when i launch a flac 44.1, my DAC screen shwo DSD 2.8M and before it was normal with 44.1 mhz

thank you

[lmf22]

Note: the error i am receiving is :
Playback Problem. the ASIO device "Teac Asio Driver" does not support the sample rate of 705600 hz

I know the Teac will do dsd128, but I have only been able to play through the TEAC HR player and
get it to work.  Playing the same tracks through JR ( 18 or 19 ) will fail?

I am having similar problem as you with the TEAC UD-501, not able to use 2xDSD (5.6MHz) upsampling (1xDSD/2.8MHz upsamping works fine).  However, a 2xDSD (5.6MHz) track that I have plays fine and the UD-501's display did indicate 5.6MHz. 

I tried the followed things, but still does not work:
1.  Set output device to "TEAC ASIO USB DRIVER [ASIO]"
2.  Different buffer settings
3.  Set bitstreaming format to "DSD" or "DSD over PCM (DoP)"

[Fleckenzwerg]

Thanks for keeping your word and inlcuding PCM to DSD real time conversion. I just tested it and must say, I still get the best sound with Kernelstreaming output without converting to DSD. My DAC should be better or at least as good with DSD (BurrBrown DSD1794). Maybe a rework of the conversion alorithm could help but this is not easy and may be worth a doctoral thesis to make it right.

Anyway, keep up your good work!

[Matt]

I am having similar problem as you with the TEAC UD-501, not able to use 2xDSD (5.6MHz) upsampling (1xDSD/2.8MHz upsamping works fine).  However, a 2xDSD (5.6MHz) track that I have plays fine and the UD-501's display did indicate 5.6MHz.

You will need a fast computer to use real-time output at 2xDSD.  There's not an exact number, but a JRMark of 3000 (Help > Benchmark) is probably a good baseline.

[elderavelas]

I just tested it and must say, I still get the best sound with Kernelstreaming output without converting to DSD.

I got the best sound with this configuration, too. My DAC is a Yulong SABRE DA8 (ES9018).
I believe that upsampling (either PCM or DSD) results will vary according to the DAC.
It is good to have the choice to use it or not.
Great work!

[Fleckenzwerg]

I just tested it and must say, I still get the best sound with Kernelstreaming output without converting to DSD.

I got the best sound with this configuration, too. My DAC is a Yulong SABRE DA8 (ES9018).
I believe that upsampling (either PCM or DSD) results will vary according to the DAC.
It is good to have the choice to use it or not.
Great work!

I tried the DoP realtime output with a different amplifier and now think DoP sounds better. So it is good one can choose.
Thanks again!

PS.: I must say that the new amplifier is more resolving in the mids and highs and I realy think that this DoP real time processing is an improvement. The sound is cleaner with more details and dynamics.

[InflatableMouse]

Maybe I should have posted this here, but I have the same issues with 2xDSD on the Teac as mentioned above.

[Omorfo]

I second this request - DSD256 would be very desirable!

  Third it   Love my Exasound!  Please please make support for DSD256  =)

[Omorfo]

Has anyone tested this with an Exasound dac yet ?

[AndyU]

Seem to have just about fixed my clicks and pops by playing with buffering and power plan.

[Poiram]

I have a Dac that only support native 1xDSD, if I use DoP I get pop and flickering in the sound.  2xDSd is not supported.  Has a matter of fact, when i set to DoP and convert a 44.1Khz, i get problem, converted 24/192 is much better and of course, direct DSD is perfect.

Will we get  1xDSD in Native format as a choice?

[6233638]

I have a Dac that only support native 1xDSD, if I use DoP I get pop and flickering in the sound.

What is your JRmark score?  Help Menu > Benchmark

[Poiram]

=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===

Running 'Math' benchmark...
    Single-threaded integer math... 4,429 seconds
    Single-threaded floating point math... 2,643 seconds
    Multi-threaded integer math... 4,433 seconds
    Multi-threaded mixed math... 2,634 seconds
Score: 1344

Running 'Image' benchmark...
    Image creation / destruction... 0,332 seconds
    Flood filling... 1,322 seconds
    Direct copying... 3,023 seconds
    Small renders... 2,114 seconds
    Bilinear rendering... 2,495 seconds
    Bicubic rendering... 1,742 seconds
Score: 1995

Running 'Database' benchmark...
    Create database... 0,739 seconds
    Populate database... 2,533 seconds
    Save database... 0,662 seconds
    Reload database... 0,211 seconds
    Search database... 2,097 seconds
    Sort database... 1,522 seconds
    Group database... 0,991 seconds
Score: 2455

JRMark (version 19.0.32): 1931

[InflatableMouse]

That is on the low end of things, your pc might not be fast enough to encode for DoP output.

[Poiram]

But what about being able to output 1xDSD native, I do not want DoP, will it be possible, My DAC is 64DSD native

Thanks

[Fleckenzwerg]

I want to share my long time experiences with the DSD realtime output. To sum it up, as I first used it, I was not convinced it sounds better (as I posted before). Now I couldn't live without it. The sound is much more natural. There is no going back. Thanks a lot for this great feature. MC19 now is, in this configuration, by far the best sounding software player I know (and I tried all windows based players, beeing a computer audiophile from the very beginning)

Best Regards

[InflatableMouse]

But what about being able to output 1xDSD native, I do not want DoP, will it be possible, My DAC is 64DSD native

Thanks

Currently only 2xDSD output is supported native, 1xDSD is output as DoP.

I've seen requests for 2xDSD as DoP and 1xDSD native. Would be nice to have but its currently not possible.

[john925]

But what about being able to output 1xDSD native, I do not want DoP, will it be possible, My DAC is 64DSD native

Thanks

Which DAC do you own?

[Poiram]

That is on the low end of things, your pc might not be fast enough to encode for DoP output.

Wht would be the appropriate configuration then?  By the way it work much better witha 24/192'

[Poiram]

Which DAC do you own?

i have a good old dCS Elgar plus with a converter that goes from USB to SDIF-2, the Elgar support native DSD true its SDIF-2 inputs.  The converter work very fine.

[InflatableMouse]

Wht would be the appropriate configuration then?  By the way it work much better witha 24/192'

I'm not sure, its been suggested around 3000 would be a good measure but its not a guarantee.

[john925]

i have a good old dCS Elgar plus with a converter that goes from USB to SDIF-2, the Elgar support native DSD true its SDIF-2 inputs.  The converter work very fine.

Hi, I've read your thread on computeraudiophile.  I also use exD converter to convert USB to SDIF. My Dac is Emmlabs DCC2 SE, which can play native DSD as well.  The exD can take Dop form and convert Dop into Native DSD and play via Emmlabs DCC2 SE without any issue.