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[InflatableMouse]

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, I'm not sure.

I'm using the latest Teac ASIO driver. It works for 1xDSD and it works bitstreaming both 1x and 2xDSD. Display on the Teac shows 2.8 and 5.6 mHz.

But when I set output to 2xDSD I get the 'something went wrong with playback' popup. Message says playback could not be started using the format 352,8kHz 64bit 2ch. Below that, ASIO device does not support the sample rate of 705600 Hz.

TIA!

[InflatableMouse]

 

Is it supposed to work? I assumed it would as bitstreaming DSD128 works fine, or is that different than 2xDSD native output?

[InflatableMouse]

I've been experimenting and  I tried the Teac HR audio player as well.

The Teac player can be configured as DSD over PCM and DSD Native. In both modes playing a DSD64 or DSD128 file shows 2.8mhz and 5.6mhz in both the player and on the DAC's display respectively.

With MC, when I enable bitstreaming and tick DSD (not DoP) and disable all DSP functions including output format it should simply play (uncompressed) DSD files. However, I get the message 'playback could not be started on ASIO using format DSD 2,8MHz 1bit 2ch', or 'playback could not be started on ASIO using format DSD 5,6MHz 1bit 2ch'. ASIO device does not support sample rate of 705600 Hz.

When I enable bitstreaming with DoP, playing DSD64 and 128 works as expected, with display on the DAC showing 2.6 and 5.8MHz. Obviously this bypasses all DSP and volume processing but it shows DoP supports DSD128.

When I enable DoP in Output format, disabled bitstreaming (none). Playing DSD64 and 128 works and as expected both show 2.6MHz on the DAC's display.

When I enable 2xDSD in native format in output format, I can't play anything. The message is essentially the same as I got with ticking DSD in bitstreaming:
DSD128: playback could not be started on output ASIO using format 705,6kHz 64bit 2ch. Device does not support sample rate of 705600 Hz.
DSD64: playback could not be started on output ASIO using format 352,8kHz 64bit 2ch. Device does not support sample rate of 705600 Hz.
16/44 Flac: playback could not be started on output ASIO using format 44,1kHz 64bit 2ch. Device does not support sample rate of 705600 Hz.

Not, I'm still a bit of a nitwit with all this, but I find the 64bit confusing. First, the DAC doesn't support 64bit (and I can't configure or force it to 32) and secondly 2xDSD in native format shouldn't do anything with 352,8 or 705,6 kHz. Native 2xDSD should send 1bit 5644800 Hz. If native is misleading and in reality it tries 2xDSD over DoP, it should do 352,8 kHz in 32bit, simply double the sample rate as it uses for 1xDSD.

Now the fact that the Teac player does both DoP and native for both 1x and 2xDSD, I think somehow MC is doing something wrong. At least as far as Teac is concerned  .

I would really like to get 2xDSD working, DoP or native I don't care but its more or less the reason I chose this DAC (and the fact it was the only sub $1000 supporting it ).

[6233638]

Not, I'm still a bit of a nitwit with all this, but I find the 64bit confusing.

64-bit shows up in the error message when sending any device a format it does not support. (I'm sure I reported this months ago)
Media Center is probably working down a list of 64 > 32 > 24 > 16 with the auto bit-depth option, but something else (e.g. sample rate) is causing it to stop before it evaluates bit-depth.

[InflatableMouse]

Yeh I think you're right. I guess its reporting 64bit because that's how its processing the files internally. I think audio path is confusing too with DSD, I'll make a separate post for that.

[InflatableMouse]

Matt? If its not too much to ask ... could you help out here please?

[Matt]

I'm using the latest Teac ASIO driver. It works for 1xDSD and it works bitstreaming both 1x and 2xDSD. Display on the Teac shows 2.8 and 5.6 mHz.

With MC, when I enable bitstreaming and tick DSD (not DoP) and disable all DSP functions including output format it should simply play (uncompressed) DSD files. However, I get the message 'playback could not be started on ASIO using format DSD 2,8MHz 1bit 2ch', or 'playback could not be started on ASIO using format DSD 5,6MHz 1bit 2ch'. ASIO device does not support sample rate of 705600 Hz.

I'm confused.  You start by saying it works, then follow-up by saying it doesn't work.

Does it ever work in MC using ASIO?

(ps. there's no need to manually disable DSP when bitstreaming -- it happens automatically, since it's impossible to use DSP with bitstreaming)

[InflatableMouse]

As output format in DSP: DoP works, 2xDSD native does not work.

Bitstreaming: DSD doesn't work, DoP works.

I'm mostly interested in outputting 2xDSD, either native or via DoP (but both should work).

Thanks Matt.

[Matt]

Bitstreaming: DSD doesn't work, DoP works.

Start there.

It sounds like the ASIO driver doesn't do native DSD.  ASIO v2.1 adds a custom format kASIODSDFormat that the driver must support for native DSD.  Many drivers don't support native DSD, but instead only DoP.

Does this sound correct?

[InflatableMouse]

Sorry I don't think that's it.

According to the website:

ASIO 2.1 and DoP modes for DSD 2.8/5.6MHz playback
A combination of the UD-501 and a Windows PC supports DSD Native playback, processing DSD data into analog audio signal directly, without prior PCM conversion. Both ASIO 2.1 and DoP (DSD over PCM) modes, as well as both 5.6MHz and 2.8MHz DSD files are also supported with this configuration.

If you look at the attached screenshot, you can see the Teac player has ASIO selected, DSD native and is playing a DSD128 file (5.6MHz in display).

That same device is selected in MC.

[Matt]

There's some disagreement about how to report bit sizes and sample rates with ASIO when using DSD.  We try to support both methods, and it works with a wide range of hardware.

But maybe there's something special about the Teac?

Maybe you could contact Teac?  We'd be happy to work with them.  I'm matt at jriver if you'd like to share my contact details.

[InflatableMouse]

Thanks for the help Matt, I'll do that.

[Matt]

You could also share a log showing ASIO playback failing to start.  The logging is pretty good, so it'll probably get us close to the issue.

[InflatableMouse]

Now were talking

Output set to 2xDSD native. First file is from 1xDSD file, second file is a 2xDSD file.

PS. I sent a support request to Teac, hopefully they get back with positive news too.

[Matt]

Now were talking

Output set to 2xDSD native. First file is from 1xDSD file, second file is a 2xDSD file.

PS. I sent a support request to Teac, hopefully they get back with positive news too.

The logs are empty.  Did you turn logging on?

To start, make sure you're bitstreaming DSD (which means all of DSP Studio is irrelevant).

[InflatableMouse]

Oh sorry, I should have checked the files.

I made new ones but they are empty too. Logging is enabled, I reset the log, reproduce the problem, report problem under logging (file is created on desktop) and I reset it again.

 

[InflatableMouse]

And yes, bitstreaming with DSD enabled, I was typing too hard and not thinking enough  .

[InflatableMouse]

That was weird, took me a few tries but finally I have a log with hopefully some useful info.

[Matt]

We put it in DSD mode, then it created buffers of type ASIOSTInt32LSB (32 bit integer).

However, in DSD mode we expect either buffers of type ASIOSTDSDInt8LSB1 or ASIOSTDSDInt8MSB1.  I'm not sure what ASIOSTInt32LSB would mean in this case, and I've never seen it from any other devices.

[JimH]

You could offer Teac a license if they would like to test or work with us.

[InflatableMouse]

I would if it makes a difference, first lets see what they come back with .

I found a piece of CPP code implementing ASIO with those buffers. No idea if that would help  .

http://kmt.hku.nl/~pieter/SOFT/CMP/src/portaudio/pa_asio/pa_asio.cpp

[InflatableMouse]

Or maybe this helps?

Code: [Select]

Found 3 ASIO driver(s).
======================================================================
Name: cmasiopPCIX
CLSID: {71E563BB-2BEB-4AF6-9F4B-2629AC49314F}
Path: c:\windows\SysWow64\cmasiop.dll
Version: 1
Input channels: 2
Output channels 8
Buffer sizes: min 4, max 15360, preferred 2400, granularity 64
Current sample rate: 48000.00Hz
Supported rates: 44100Hz, 48000Hz, 88200Hz, 96000Hz, 176400Hz, 192000Hz
ASIOOutputReady: supported
Latencies: input 2400, output 4800
CanInputMonitor: No
CanTimeInfo: Yes
CanTimeCode: Yes
CanTransport: No
CanInputGain: No
CanInputMeter: No
SupportPCMFormat: No
CanOutputGain: No
SupportDSDFormat: No
CanOutputMeter: No
Input channel 0 not active
Name: IN-00
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 1
Input channel 1 not active
Name: IN-01
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 1
Output channel 0 not active
Name: L
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 1 not active
Name: R
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 2 not active
Name: Ls
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 3 not active
Name: Rs
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 4 not active
Name: C
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 5 not active
Name: Sub
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 6 not active
Name: Lb
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 7 not active
Name: Rb
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
======================================================================
Name: JRiver Media Center 19
CLSID: {FBD8E51C-6638-4867-A3C9-D0C099CC51E0}
Path: C:\Program Files (x86)\J River\Media Center 19\Drivers\JRiverASIODriver.dll
Version: 1
Input channels: 0
Output channels 16
Buffer sizes: min 512, max 512, preferred 512, granularity 0
Current sample rate: 44100.00Hz
Supported rates: 8000Hz, 11025Hz, 22050Hz, 32000Hz, 44100Hz, 48000Hz, 88200Hz, 96000Hz, 176400Hz, 192000Hz, 4128831Hz, 63Hz, 7209045Hz, 6422625Hz, 6619244Hz, 7602208Hz, 2097263Hz, 6619239Hz, 2097268Hz, 6815843Hz, 7209057Hz
ASIOOutputReady: not supported
Latencies: input 512, output 1024
CanInputMonitor: Yes
CanTimeInfo: Yes
CanTimeCode: Yes
CanTransport: No
CanInputGain: No
CanInputMeter: No
SupportPCMFormat: No
CanOutputGain: No
SupportDSDFormat: No
CanOutputMeter: No
Output channel 0 active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 1 active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 2 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 3 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 4 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 5 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 6 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 7 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 8 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 9 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 10 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 11 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 12 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 13 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 14 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 15 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
======================================================================
Name: TEAC ASIO USB DRIVER
CLSID: {6C873568-0360-481D-AF2F-C60DF0BF508C}
Path: C:\Program Files (x86)\TEAC\AsioUsbAudio\TeacAsioUD.dll
Version: 1
Input channels: 0
Output channels 2
Buffer sizes: min 3528, max 3528, preferred 3528, granularity 0
Current sample rate: 176400.00Hz
Supported rates: 44100Hz, 48000Hz, 88200Hz, 96000Hz, 176400Hz, 192000Hz
ASIOOutputReady: supported
Latencies: input 3528, output 4610
CanInputMonitor: Yes
CanTimeInfo: Yes
CanTimeCode: Yes
CanTransport: No
CanInputGain: No
CanInputMeter: No
SupportPCMFormat: Yes
CanOutputGain: No
SupportDSDFormat: Yes
CanOutputMeter: No
Output channel 0 not active
Name: TEAC USB AUDIO DEVICE Out 01
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 1 not active
Name: TEAC USB AUDIO DEVICE Out 02
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
======================================================================


[Matt]

I found a piece of CPP code implementing ASIO with those buffers. No idea if that would help  .

We support all ASIO buffer types.  However, some are appropriate for PCM and some for DSD.

The problem here appears to be that the driver is using a PCM buffer type while in DSD mode.

[InflatableMouse]

Right. But you can fix it? 

[Matt]

Right. But you can fix it?  

No.  We need Teac's help.  It looks like a driver bug to me, but they might have a better explanation.

[InflatableMouse]

I've chased Teac for a reply as I hadn't heard from them yet.

If they contact you (which I requested) please let me know so I can stop bugging them.

Thanks.

[Matt]

I've chased Teac for a reply as I hadn't heard from them yet.

If they contact you (which I requested) please let me know so I can stop bugging them.

Thanks.

Nothing yet.

[InflatableMouse]

I actually got a reply this morning that they are looking into it.

[Archimago]

Been looking into this this evening...

Here's another way to get PCM --> 2xDSD upsampling in realtime.

Get ASIOProxyInstall here (it's also part of the foobar foo_input_sacd package):
http://sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/files/foo_dsd_asio/

Install that. Now you select "foo_dsd_asio" as the ASIO driver rather than "TEAC ASIO USB DRIVER" under Player/Playback Options.

Go into "Device settings..." and "Open Driver Control Panel". A window opens, make sure ASIO Driver is "TEAC ASIO USB DRIVER", DSD Playback Method either "ASIO Native" or "DoP Marker 0x05/0xFA", and set PCM to DSD Method to "SDM Type A" (I assume all would work), Fs as "DSD128".

In Player/DSP Studio settings don't use DSD output encoding (we're letting ASIOProxy doing this after all), set it to "None".

Now play your PCM file and you'll see the TEAC will be playing 5.6MHz DSD. The downside to this is that JRiver isn't going to bitstream true DSD properly; neither DSD64/128 .dff/.dsf will play properly in JRiver.

Since ASIOProxy seems to play PCM --> DSD128 with both ASIO native and DoP, maybe Matt can have a look at the source code and see what they're doing with the buffers, especially if TEAC doesn't come through with a fix!?

DSD128 sounds good BTW 

[InflatableMouse]

This is great! Just got it to work too.

Thanks for sharing this, awesome to have this working.

Not sure if there would be any difference apart from who's doing the encoding, but you can set MC to 2xDSD native too and you can leave the PCM to DSD method in ASIOProxy to None. You would have to configure ASIOProxy for DoP output and set FS to DSD128.

[Archimago]

Yup, you're right, I was using an older version of ASIOproxy and I just tried the newest version 0.6.5 and set it to:
ASIO Driver "TEAC ASIO USB DRIVER", DSD Playback Method "DoP Marker 0x05/0xFA", PCM to DSD "None", Fs "DSD128", DSD/PCM Transition: 0ms

MC's Output Encoding to: "2xDSD in native format"
MC's Bitstreaming: "Yes (DSD over PCM (DoP))"

Now all PCM is converted to 2xDSD. And DSD files are streamed proper as either DSD64 or DSD128 in DoP. Cool... Everything works  

Would ideally prefer not to use the ASIOProxy kludge so hopefully TEAC/JRiver can work this out to also have ASIO native working eventually...

Addendum: Thought I'd put up a little HOWTO for this on my blog:
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/09/howto-getting-jriver-mc19-2xdsd.html

[InflatableMouse]

If you set MC to bitstreaming, DSP output is bypassed. I assume you know this and its what you want because it won't convert your DSD files to PCM to process them, but you'll loose volume leveling etc.

Thought I'd point that out just in case.

Another thing, I noticed when I let ASIOproxy do the encoding it's not accepting 48khz or multiples thereof. I suppose this is another reason to use 2xDSD output from MC .

Either way, its great to be able to use this finally. It was one of the features I was looking forward to, so I was a little dissapointed when it didn't work as I expected.

Thanks again!

[Archimago]

Good reminder about bitstreaming and loss of MC processing. Didn't notice earlier about the loss of 48kHz upsampling with ASIOProxy before! Better to let MC19 do the upsampling in any case 

[lmf22]

Thanks Archimago!  I got DSD128 upsampling to work using your method.  Works fine with all sample rates from 44.1kHz to 192kHz.  The TEAC's display confirmed that it is receiving 5.6MHz and using DoP method.

In the past couple of days I have been playing with it, and found a similar workaround, but using JPlay ASIO as the Audio Device.  However, with JPlay ASIO, I had to set the buffer to at least 100 milliseconds (stuttering if set lower than that).  With your method using ASIOProxy, I can set buffer to "Minimum hardware size."  I found that lower buffer settings sound better.  Also, using the JPlay ASIO method, the bass and mid-bass sounds bloated and muddy.

[Archimago]

Hi lmf22.

Glad it works for you. Interesting. I'll have to play with the buffers to see what happens.  

The middle class man's EMM DAC2X with the added ability to accept native DSD128 thru USB 

[Archimago]

Just tried the "Minimum hardware size" setting. Yup, works good, sounds good. My CPU utilization went up to 15-20% from 10-15%.

No snap/crackle/pops.

[InflatableMouse]

Psst. Buddy ...

PM could not be sent to 'Archimago' as their inbox is full!

 

[Matt]

Please let me know if you hear from Teac.

I also asked Maxim, the author of ASIO proxy, about supporting 32-bit PCM integer buffers when playing as DSD.

I'll follow-up if I learn anything more.

[InflatableMouse]

Will do.

Thanks Matt!

[Archimago]

Psst. Buddy ...

 

Sorry dude... Forgot to delete the messages!  

So... Anyone interested in some objective measurements and subjective impression, here's my take:
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html

Cheers!

[Matt]

Sorry dude... Forgot to delete the messages!  

So... Anyone interested in some objective measurements and subjective impression, here's my take:
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html

Cheers!

That was fascinating.  Thanks for doing all those tests and for sharing.

I'm happy to see our DSD encoder instrument test well.  DSD encoding has some "squish" since there's no tightly defined noise shaper, dither, or upsampler.  I think we made good decisions, and we do everything with 64bit precision, but it's always nice to see tests back it up.

As for the subjective opinion part, it would be fun to create a filter in Parametric Equalizer that added DSD-like high frequency noise to high sample rate PCM and compare it to native DSD.  If your theory that high frequency fuzz might be the thing that people find pleasing, then I would expect doing it in PCM to give all the same "benefit."

Anyway, thanks again.

[lmf22]

So... Anyone interested in some objective measurements and subjective impression, here's my take:
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html

Archimago, thanks for doing the measurements!  I posted my impressions of PCM2DSD in the comments section of your blog. 

[InflatableMouse]

Thanks for sharing!

I am wondering ... is the type of distortion we're seeing in DSD something similar to the distortion in a vacuum tube amp?

[Bigguy49]

Been looking into this this evening...

Here's another way to get PCM --> 2xDSD upsampling in realtime.

Get ASIOProxyInstall here (it's also part of the foobar foo_input_sacd package):
http://sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/files/foo_dsd_asio/

Install that. Now you select "foo_dsd_asio" as the ASIO driver rather than "TEAC ASIO USB DRIVER" under Player/Playback Options.

Go into "Device settings..." and "Open Driver Control Panel". A window opens, make sure ASIO Driver is "TEAC ASIO USB DRIVER", DSD Playback Method either "ASIO Native" or "DoP Marker 0x05/0xFA", and set PCM to DSD Method to "SDM Type A" (I assume all would work), Fs as "DSD128".

In Player/DSP Studio settings don't use DSD output encoding (we're letting ASIOProxy doing this after all), set it to "None".

Now play your PCM file and you'll see the TEAC will be playing 5.6MHz DSD. The downside to this is that JRiver isn't going to bitstream true DSD properly; neither DSD64/128 .dff/.dsf will play properly in JRiver.

Since ASIOProxy seems to play PCM --> DSD128 with both ASIO native and DoP, maybe Matt can have a look at the source code and see what they're doing with the buffers, especially if TEAC doesn't come through with a fix!?

DSD128 sounds good BTW 

I see from this post the mention of "...(and others)".  I am interested in the "other being the Mytek DAC after reading about this concept in Archimago's Musings.

Has anyone developed a process for doing PCM to DSD upsampling with the Mytek?  I understand that I would need to upgrade the MC18 I am using now to MC19Beta.

Is this upsampling something that can be implemented readily and painlessly for us less technically inclined?

Does implementation of this upsampling interfere with playback of DSD and 2XDSD files which is working fine for me right now?

Thanks.

[pete321]

Thanks for the ASIOProxy solution. My DSD dsf files are now playing native at 2.8MHz using DoP and my FLAC files at DSD 5.6MHz. All possible with an Intel E6750 core2duo CPU overclocked to 2.97GHz + 4GB DDR2 RAM. My JRiver benchmark rating is a lowly figure just short of 2000.

My initial thoughts on the PCM to DSD conversion is positive, music sounds more natural and some tracks which could sound a little harsh through my Naim Nait XS amp & Monitor Audio RX6 speakers have smoothed out.

I like to create playlists on the fly with JRiver, these include PCM FLAC and DSD dsf files, the volume levelling works on the PCM files converted to DSD, but not the native DSD, is there something I can do to fix this? Thanks

[InflatableMouse]

I've sent Teac another mail with hopefully some convincing arguments why they should help me .

Hope you don't mind but I've added you to the cc Matt.

[Matt]

I've sent Teac another mail with hopefully some convincing arguments why they should help me .

Hope you don't mind but I've added you to the cc Matt.

I replied to them too.

It's depressing how hard it often is to find someone that cares at a big company.

[InflatableMouse]

Yes indeed.

I'll wait a bit more and then I'll start calling them or emailing HQ in Japan. They'll fix it if only to get rid of me .

[Matt]

I just got an email from an engineer at TEAC, so I'm hopeful we'll be able to get this going soon.

[InflatableMouse]