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[maintainin]

Ah man, the farther I go down the JRiver rabbit hole the more questions I have. So, I set up jriver last week in my first HTPC. Have video set to RO HQ with the additional jinc3 settings in madVR. Bitstreaming audio. My TV is a Samsung 58"plasma. Under HDMI black level I have two settings. Normal and low. I believe these two correspond to RGB(which is 0-255 I believe) and ycbcr(16-235) respectively? Is that right? Normal corresponds to RGB and low to ycbcr? I've read that all pc's output RGB. So if the "normal" setting corresponds to RGB, does that mean it should be set to that in the TV? I will say that switching between the two settings, that low is noticeably more darker. One comparing the two might say that the normal setting looks more washed out, but technically I don't know if that would be true. It's just lighter on normal. I've been watching it on normal all week and I thought it looked great. So I guess I'm saying that they both look good to me in the few minutes I've been switching between the two, but I want the setting that is going to be more accurately portraying what's coming from the HTPC. Any info?

On to settings in nvidia control panel....in video>adjust video image settings......edge enhancement is set to "use the video player setting". Noise reduction is set to the same. I assume these are set correctly because we don't want the video card doing any kind of video processing right? However, there is also a setting for Deinterlacing which has an option to enable "use inverse telecine". Should that be checked or unchecked? Thanks

[Scolex]

It is really in the eye of the beholder, whatever looks best to you is the correct setting.
With that being said you might search for suggested calibration settings for your specific model.
You might not be able to find the exact model but you should be able to find something close.
I suggest trying to stay within the same series, say you have a PN58C6500 try and find PN**C6500

To add to it you may find that different input devices look better with different settings
example: Using my HTPC for playback, blacks looked BLACK when using normal but using my DirecTV
STB they were more of a deep gray and washed out a bit when HDMI black level was set to normal.

If you are interested in some images and instructions to help you calibrate your display have a look here.

[jmone]

Have a look at this Wiki on this - http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Madvr_expert_guide it has some discussion on levels.

[maintainin]

The TV was calibrated years ago. I've been thru the madvr guide and have left it at 0-255 as suggested. My question is more what shoud the TV be set to. I'm sure one or the other is the "more correct" setting. I guess I'll just leave it set to normal. It's kind of frustrating. You can find tons of posts on this throughout the web on this kind of stuff, half of which are posts from people like me who dont have a clue and the other half filled with posts that contradict themselves. You read one post where somebody explains something and you think "Great, that answers my question...." And the very next post usually starts out with something "That is incorrect...." and explains the exact opposite.

EDIT: So now I just read that nivdia cards output 16-235 on HDMI by default and the only way to get it to output 0-255 is by a registry tweak. Why nvidia? Why?  :facepalm:

[6233638]

EDIT: So now I just read that nivdia cards output 16-235 on HDMI by default and the only way to get it to output 0-255 is by a registry tweak. Why nvidia? Why? :facepalm:

This is only if your display does not report that it supports 0-255. My PC automatically sends 0-255 to my Sony TV without having to make any adjustments.

[mwillems]

This is only if your display does not report that it supports 0-255. My PC automatically sends 0-255 to my Sony TV without having to make any adjustments.

My display showed 0-255 as an option in the nvidia control panel for the display (which my old TV did not), but selecting that option had no effect on anything.  Only the registry tweak fixed it for me.  Although I also have a Samsung TV, so it may just be a problem with the way they communicate with the nvidia card.

Either way, it's really bad design to offer a configuration option and then ignore the setting the user dialed in without reporting that's what's happening.

[maintainin]

This is only if your display does not report that it supports 0-255. My PC automatically sends 0-255 to my Sony TV without having to make any adjustments.

How do you know its actually sending 0-255 out of the HDMI port? Is there an easy way to identify? Use a gradient image to look for banding?

[mwillems]

How do you know its actually sending 0-255 out of the HDMI port? Is there an easy way to identify? Use a gradient image to look for banding?

What you described sounds very much like you're not getting 0-255 out (I had the same problem and spent a week troubleshooting).  MadVR includes a little tool in it's directory that will make the necessary tweaks to the registry for you, so if you want to be sure that's how to do it.  I had exactly the same issue you had (the RGB setting on my TV looked washed out), until I ran the utility.

[maintainin]

My display showed 0-255 as an option in the nvidia control panel for the display (which my old TV did not), but selecting that option had no effect on anything.  Only the registry tweak fixed it for me.  Although I also have a Samsung TV, so it may just be a problem with the way they communicate with the nvidia video card.

Either way, it's really bad design to offer a configuration option and then ignore the setting the user dialed in without reporting that's what's happening.

What I've read confirms what you said as well. That changing any of those settings in the control panel will not stop the card from putting out 16-235 on the HDMI out. And even if it did work I'm not sure I would want to select that in the nvidia control panel. Doing so takes away madvr's control and gives it to nvidia(theres other color and gamma options under that same section that get enabled) does it not?

[maintainin]

What you described sounds very much like you're not getting 0-255 out (I had the same problem and spent a week troubleshooting).  MadVR includes a little tool in it's directory that will make the necessary tweaks to the registry for you, so if you want to be sure that's how to do it.  I had exactly the same issue you had (the RGB setting on my TV looked washed out), until I ran the utility.

Where would that be exactly? I ran across madshi's tweaker and was going to give that a go.

[mwillems]

Where would that be exactly? I ran across madshi's tweaker and was going to give that a go.

That's the one, madshi is the author of MadVr and includes the tweaker in the MadVR directory under JRiver's parent directory.  I'm not at home so I can't give you the exact directory structure, but madshi's tweaker is the utility I was describing.

[maintainin]

That's the one, madshi is the author of MadVr and includes the tweaker in the MadVR directory under JRiver's parent directory.  I'm not at home so I can't give you the exact directory structure, but madshi's tweaker is the utility I was describing.

Cool, I will give it a go when I get home this evening and see what trhe results are. I also just read that some AV recievers(I'm not sure if this applies to older recievers or current ones as well) can also clip black levels from 0-255 to 16-235 even with HDMI passthru. Guess I'll be checking that out, too.

EDIT: I asked over on AVS about the specific model AV receiver I have(Yamaha RX-A3010) and got a repsonse from a guy who said "Yamaha receivers only clipped to 16-235 for one model generation about 6 years ago. Recent models don't do it.".......So I guess I'm good. I'm not sure on other older AV receivers. I did see mention of other receivers(Onkyo, Denon, etc...) having the same issues.

[maintainin]

Any suggestions on the "use inverse telecine" option under the Nvidia control panel? Since madVR is doing deinterlacing should this be unchecked?

[6233638]

How do you know its actually sending 0-255 out of the HDMI port? Is there an easy way to identify? Use a gradient image to look for banding?

Switching levels on the display will show what the source is outputting.
 
When you switch between PC levels (0-255) and Video Levels (16-235) on the display, the image will switch between looking normal and looking washed out/faded if the source is outputting 16-235.
 
If the source is outputting 0-255, then switching between PC/Video levels on the display will switch between a normal image and one where all shadow/highlight detail is crushed/blown out. (very contrasted image)

What I've read confirms what you said as well. That changing any of those settings in the control panel will not stop the card from putting out 16-235 on the HDMI out. And even if it did work I'm not sure I would want to select that in the nvidia control panel. Doing so takes away madvr's control and gives it to nvidia(theres other color and gamma options under that same section that get enabled) does it not?

The only options Nvidia have are for video playback. There are no options for the HDMI output levels.

Any suggestions on the "use inverse telecine" option under the Nvidia control panel? Since madVR is doing deinterlacing should this be unchecked?

You should leave it enabled.

Either way, it's really bad design to offer a configuration option and then ignore the setting the user dialed in without reporting that's what's happening.

The problem is that Nvidia does not have options for the output levels (other than forcing 0-255 via the registry) not that it's ignoring something the user has set.

[mwillems]

The problem is that Nvidia does not have options for the output levels (other than forcing 0-255 via the registry) not that it's ignoring something the user has set.

In the Nvidia control panel there is a digital color space output option that allows a choice between RGB and YCbCr.  My understanding was that that menu option should toggle full range output and 16-235 output, but it did nothing at all for me. 

I may just have misunderstood what the setting is, and I'm open to correction on that (you know much more about video than I do) 

[maintainin]

I'm going to try madshi's tweaked tonight and see if it makes a difference on my tv when I have it set to "normal" under hdmi black level. Is there a way to take a screenshot of a movie playing? I'd like to take a screenshot before I do the tweak and one after.

[mwillems]

I'm going to try madshi's tweaked tonight and see if it makes a difference on my tv when I have it set to "normal" under hdmi black level. Is there a way to take a screenshot of a movie playing? I'd like to take a screenshot before I do the tweak and one after.

The print screen key will usually dump a screenshot to your clipboard.  If you open up a picture editor (e.g. ms paint) you can just paste it in.  I've gotten pics of movies that way in the past

[JimH]

You can copy from the clipboard by using Camera in the Action Window.

[maintainin]

So I ran madshi's tweker tool taking a screenshot before and after. Was using Django Unchained as the test movie. I was gonna post some pics but I screwed up and saved them in .png, so too large to post and dont feel like downsizing and such. Took some screenshot shots in a dark scene and I can't tell a difference between the two before the tweak or after the tweak. This was comparing images when black level in Samsung was set to normal and low. So, either madshi's tweaker didnt work(Which I highly doubt...it does work in windows 8 right?) or the video card was outputting 0-255 all along..........BUT there is a caveat to that. Out of the ton's of reading I've done today I saw mention somewhere that this problem, Nvidia cards limiting RGB to 16-235, only happens when output is over hdmi and the signal is 720p and 1080p 60hz. I did some more reading tonight and came across this page where this fellow has also created his own toggler:

http://blog.metaclassofnil.com/?p=83

From the page:

"I recently had a problem where I simply couldn’t get my NV GPU to supply full range RGB (0-255) over HDMI when the resolution was either 720p or 1080p at 59.94 Hz." So this confirms also what I read earlier today somewhere else. It also makes sense too, due to the fact that even though I couldnt see any difference in the tweak with a 1080p24 movie, I definitely noticed a difference in my desktop appearance when I switched the tweak on. Why? Because the desktop is displaying at 1080p60. I toggled the tweak on and off several times. The difference was noticable. With the tweak on, the desktop looked better. It has a black background with a brown taskbar. The desktop black background looked a little blacker, the brown a little more vivid. It looked better.

So anyway, maybe I'll try and run back some 1080p60 material this weekend and see if all that holds true.

And one more note on Samsung TV's. I dont know if newer Samsung's have changed in the menu when it comes to HDMI black level settings, but in mine as mentioned many times in this post has settings of normal and low. This setting is only available when the TV is receiving RGB. It's greyed out when it's receiving ycbcr. When it's greyed out and receiving ycbcr it says normal. There's alot of talk out there on what normal and low means. Some people say that normal is for 0-255 RGB and low is for limited 16-235 RGB. Others said the opposite. There's even been mentioned that samsung mislabeled the settings........basically it had me pulling my hair out. And people were pointing out that the display saying normal and greyed out when receiving ycbcr must mean that normal means 16-235 since that is what ycbcr is. But the best explanation I've read is that Samsung meant normal and low to mean what  normal is in respect to ycbcr and RGB. The setting is greyed out and says normal when its receiving ycbcr because 16-235 is the only option for ycbcr and of course that's its "normal" setting. As for RGB, 0-255 is the normal setting for it and selecting "normal" means that the TV is set for 0-255. Putting it on "low" for RGB sets it to 16-235. Which would explain why its darker on low. Signal is getting clipped, right?

Anyway, I'm rambling. Thanks for all your all's help!

[6233638]

Took some screenshot shots in a dark scene and I can't tell a difference between the two before the tweak or after the tweak.

Screenshots won't capture a difference in the video card's output.

Out of the ton's of reading I've done today I saw mention somewhere that this problem, Nvidia cards limiting RGB to 16-235, only happens when output is over hdmi and the signal is 720p and 1080p 60hz.

And only if your display does not report that it accepts 0-255 over RGB.

I definitely noticed a difference in my desktop appearance when I switched the tweak on. Why? Because the desktop is displaying at 1080p60. I toggled the tweak on and off several times. The difference was noticable. With the tweak on, the desktop looked better. It has a black background with a brown taskbar. The desktop black background looked a little blacker, the brown a little more vivid. It looked better.

There should be no difference when you switch levels - only a reduction in banding.
 
 
I think this should illustrate whether you're outputting 0-255 or 16-235, and whether levels have been set correctly.
 
Display this image fullscreen. (unscaled)

 
If your computer is outputting 0-255, when you switch levels on the display it should change between animating (PC levels) and a solid black screen. (Video Levels)
 
If your computer is outputting 16-235, when you switch levels on the display, it will still animate, but the pattern will get lighter when the display is set to PC levels.

In the Nvidia control panel there is a digital color space output option that allows a choice between RGB and YCbCr.  My understanding was that that menu option should toggle full range output and 16-235 output, but it did nothing at all for me.

That switches the output between RGB and YCbCr (component video)
It has nothing to do with levels. (and should be left at RGB)

[mwillems]

That switches the output between RGB and YCbCr (component video)
It has nothing to do with levels. (and should be left at RGB)

That explains why it didn't make a difference when I toggled it I guess.  I just must have misunderstood some things I read about the HDMI spec:

"According to Section 6.6 of the HDMI 1.3 Specification document:

Black and white levels for video components shall be either “Full Range” or “Limited Range.” YCbCr components shall always be Limited Range while RGB components may be either Full Range or Limited Range. While using RGB, Limited Range shall be used for all video formats defined in CEA-861-D, with the exception of VGA (640x480) format, which requires Full Range.

Basically, in YCbCr mode, full range signal (0-255, which it can do) is not allowed and limited range values are specified (16-235 for 8-bit color sources)."

Reading it more closely, it makes it clear that RGB can be either full range or limited range, which is the part I must have missed the first time.

[6233638]

I think that may have changed with HDMI 1.4, but there are a lot of sources which don't conform to that, and you can have 16-235 or 0-255 whether the output is RGB or YCC.

[maintainin]

I'll run that pattern just to make sure but at this point I'm pretty convinced that it's not something I need to worry about. I appreciate your all's help.

[maintainin]

Screenshots won't capture a difference in the video card's output.
And only if your display does not report that it accepts 0-255 over RGB.
There should be no difference when you switch levels - only a reduction in banding.
 
 
I think this should illustrate whether you're outputting 0-255 or 16-235, and whether levels have been set correctly.
 
Display this image fullscreen. (unscaled)

 
If your computer is outputting 0-255, when you switch levels on the display it should change between animating (PC levels) and a solid black screen. (Video Levels)
 
If your computer is outputting 16-235, when you switch levels on the display, it will still animate, but the pattern will get lighter when the display is set to PC levels.
That switches the output between RGB and YCbCr (component video)
It has nothing to do with levels. (and should be left at RGB)

I tried that image with and without madshi's tweak. Without his tweak applied it does appear to be outputting 16-235 because it is doing just as you described. The pattern continues to animate between normal and low, it just gets lighter. With madshi's tweak applied I get the animated on normal and solid black on low.

[maintainin]

Hey 623368....just curious. What are the repurcussions if I had a TV that only output 16-235. Since jriver is outputing 0-255 and video card is outputting 0-255(with tweak) would it really be noticable if the tv can only do 16-235? Should I just set the video card back to outputting 16-235.

[6233638]

Hey 623368....just curious. What are the repurcussions if I had a TV that only output 16-235. Since jriver is outputing 0-255 and video card is outputting 0-255(with tweak) would it really be noticable if the tv can only do 16-235? Should I just set the video card back to outputting 16-235.

You would lose all shadow and highlight detail - it would just be solid black and white. The image would be overly contrasted and look very bad.

[maintainin]

So besides replacing with a tv that does do 0-255 is there a fix? Per your guide, madvr and the video card should be set to output 0-255 regardless?

[6233638]

So besides replacing with a tv that does do 0-255 is there a fix? Per your guide, madvr and the video card should be set to output 0-255 regardless?

madVR should always* be set to output 0-255.
The PC output should be set to 16-235 if that is all your display supports.


*unless you are willing to sacrifice how everything else on your PC will look, for the sake of potentially reducing banding in videos.

[maintainin]

So as far as watching movies in jriver, if madvr is set to 0-255 and it's coming out of the pc at 16-235 there should be no noticeable loss?

[6233638]

So as far as watching movies in jriver, if madvr is set to 0-255 and it's coming out of the pc at 16-235 there should be no noticeable loss?

There may be banding introduced/made more noticeable from the 0-255 > 16-235 levels compression.
 
The only way to avoid it is to have the PC output 0-255, and madVR output 16-235. But you almost never want to do that, as it means that everything except madVR will look terrible.