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[BartMan01]

On both of my HTPC systems that use HDMI for audio and video to a receiver, when the update to MC with the new WDM driver installed that new device was installed as the default audio device and in both cases broke the audio.  I had to manually go back in and set the default audio device back to HDMI to get audio working again.  Is this expected behavior?

[Matt]

Unfortunately, we can't find any way to control this.  Windows just does what it wants.

However, it should be simple enough to set the default device to whatever you want.

[JustinChase]

I see this also.  Every time I've upgraded, I've had to 'fix' this problem.  I'd really prefer to not have to do this every time I upgrade.

[mwillems]

And the reverse is true as well (at least for me); I have the WDM set as default and everytime I upgrade, windows un-defaults the WDM driver.  I think Arindelle was seeing the same thing. So I also have to change the default device on several machines after every upgrade.  Windows seems to do the exact opposite of what one might want in this case, and it can't be corralled.  Up to now I've left MC configured to auto-update, but I've had to turn that off because if it updates when I'm not around, WDM playback gets broken and I get a call from my wife that Netflix isn't working.  I'm sure it's a similar situation for folks who don't use the WDM, but in reverse; the auto-switch breaks normal audio playback, which isn't very wife-friendly.

I'm just brainstorming, but it seems like one way to stop this from happening is to install the driver less frequently.  I know this suggestion has been made before and rejected, but, Matt, would you and the other devs consider an alternative installation vector for the WDM driver?  I guess what I'm wondering is if it could be installed separately from the normal build process and updated only when the driver changes.  

I know separate installation is not ideal, but I thought I'd mention it again as it would potentially kill two birds with one stone:  

1) It would please the "don't want to install the driver at all" group by making the install easier to avoid, and
2) Would also make it easier on those of us who love the driver, but have our defaults changed every build, so we don't have to reset the default audio device.

It's a killer feature no matter what, though, and I'm thrilled to have it (even if I have to click through a few more dialogs   )

[JimH]

We're thinking about this problem.

[BartMan01]

We're thinking about this problem.

Thanks.  While it may be 'easy' to switch it back (if you know what you are doing), I also have the WAF problem.  When it breaks the downstairs system (the one the wife always uses), she has no idea how to fix it or what is even wrong.  All she knows is the audio is broken and she is not happy (especially if I am not around).  It is also not 'easy' to fix on that machine.  I either have to stop and go upstairs to log in remotely and fix it, or stop and dig out the put away keyboard and mouse and get that all hooked up and working to fix it.

I also expect there are lots of more novice users who would really not know what to do if/when this happens.

[Dawgincontrol]

Would it be possible to just have the driver download separate and only notify or install if an updated driver on an upgrade?

It locks my computer up on every upgrade.

[AndrewFG]

Maybe check if the default driver is WDM, and/or if WDM is not present at all, and only install the updates in those two cases?

[Grenache]

However, it should be simple enough to set the default device to whatever you want.

This might be true if you assume that your customers are all power users. And then maybe not. I consider myself a power user but nevertheless wasted several hours trying to fix this before even thinking that my HDMI driver could have been disabled. Worse, I then had to explain to my better half what she should do the next time this happens and answer questions about why this new WDM driver has to be installed by default.

Oh well, maybe I'm not a power user after all when it comes to MC. Or maybe this should be in the usability thread.

[JimH]

This might be true if you assume that your customers are all power users. And then maybe not. I consider myself a power user but nevertheless wasted several hours trying to fix this before even thinking that my HDMI driver could have been disabled. Worse, I then had to explain to my better half what she should do the next time this happens and answer questions about why this new WDM driver has to be installed by default.

Oh well, maybe I'm not a power user after all when it comes to MC. Or maybe this should be in the usability thread.

This will be solved.  And soon.  We're just not sure how.

[skarsol]

I still think a "Stable (no driver)" upgrade channel is the best option. Should be easy to implement too.

[stewart_pk]

I'll go out on a limb and suggest that the vast majority (greater than 80%) of JRiver users will never use this thing.
And because of this and how it compromises one's Windows system, it should be a separate download and installation.

[Hendrik]

I still think a "Stable (no driver)" upgrade channel is the best option. Should be easy to implement too.

No, thats not a good option.
For one it requires different setups to be published, which increases the complexity quite a bit, and still requires people to actually understand what it means.

And should we also duplicate all the other channels then?

[6233638]

How about an option in the update menu similar to "disable automatic updates" which sticks, and applies the /nodriver flag?
 
Then you don't need a separate build.

[AoXoMoXoA]

If it cannot be made to behave properly then it shouldn't be included in the builds unless it can be fixed.

Perhaps offer it as a plug in or add-on until it can be made bullet-proof.

[JimH]

I don't think we can separate it from the download, but we are aware we need to make a change.  Please be patient.

If you don't want the driver, there is the command line option available.

[Vocalpoint]

I don't think we can separate it from the download, but we are aware we need to make a change.  Please be patient. If you don't want the driver, there is the command line option available.

Jim,

While you are in the thinking stage - you need to make MC respect any prior requests for a non driver install. It's one thing to offer the command line options when doing a basic (or initial install) but I have 5 workstations in the loop and prefer to upgrade these via the channels and having MC deliver an update as it becomes available. I do not have the time of patience to manually download 5 new builds each to 5 machines and then run 5 manual installs via command line just to prevent the driver from loading.

While we are still on v19 here - we will be moving to v 20 - but I too cannot risk v20 installing a driver on any machine and then have that machine suddenly not work when the wife and son want to watch a movie and I am not around.

VP

[JimH]

... we will be moving to v 20 - but I too cannot risk v20 installing a driver on any machine and then have that machine suddenly not work when the wife and son want to watch a movie and I am not around.

You can turn off auto-update.

[Arindelle]

just putting this out there ... I'm certainly not a driver expert

How about putting a full-build (MC+the driver) as a download from the website. And maybe a full install link stickied on the forum. First time users will than have it. They fiddle with windows once or twice and decide if they want it.

Then all update channels would just get the program without the driver. The driver would be a separate, manual download -- just like most drivers are that are not being updated through windows. If people don't keep the driver updated , when it changes, thats their problem.

I understand that it would be nice to make JRiver  more accessible for "non-power-users", but everything doesn't have to be automated for couch-potatoes either.

Anyways whatever you guys decide, I'm still thrilled that you even developed it .. people don't know what they are missing if they haven't tried it

[glynor]

How about putting a full-build (MC+the driver) as a download from the website. And maybe a full install link stickied on the forum. First time users will than have it. They fiddle with windows once or twice and decide if they want it.

Then all update channels would just get the program without the driver.

That's still going to require all kinds of custom builds, which Hendrik already frowned at.  Besides, the "their problem" is really our problem.  Allowing the WDM driver and MC version to go out of sync could possibly cause all sorts of weirdness.

No good.

I think you need to reverse the order of things:

* Do the driver install after the install wizard completes (post-install), not before.
* In the custom/advanced install mode, have a checkbox that you can uncheck to prevent the driver installation.
* Remember the setting of the checkbox for all future installations (as you do with other install options).
* Done.  Drink a nice glass of wine and think about how awesome you are.

[mwillems]

That's still going to require all kinds of custom builds, which Hendrik already frowned at.  Besides, the "their problem" is really our problem.  Allowing the WDM driver and MC version to go out of sync could possibly cause all sorts of weirdness.

No good.

I think you need to reverse the order of things:

* Do the driver install after the install wizard completes (post-install), not before.
* In the custom/advanced install mode, have a checkbox that you can uncheck to prevent the driver installation.
* Remember the setting of the checkbox for all future installations (as you do with other install options).
* Done.  Drink a nice glass of wine and think about how awesome you are.

That's a good solution to what's probably the bigger half of the problem: the folks who don't want the driver can opt out on a one and done basis, which I think is good.

But what about the other (smaller) half of the problem: those of us who use the driver still have to reset our audio devices every build because windows de-defaults the driver.  Recognizing that the windows reaction to driver installation can't be changed, couldn't the installer detect if the latest driver version is already installed and not reinstall if so?  

Looking at the driver versioning, it doesn't look like the driver version actually changes every build, but rather only every few builds (correct me if I'm misunderstanding this).  If the installer could check to see if the latest version of the driver is installed, and then, if it's already current, not reinstall it, that would cut down drastically on the number of times I have to walk around the house and reset the audio drivers on different boxes (some of which I have to remote into).  I would still need to leave auto-update off for WAF reasons in case the driver version did actually change on a given build, but installing the driver only when actually updated would simplify life for folks trying to use the driver on multiple systems and/or headless systems.  

If anyone else has any ideas on what could be done on this particular face of the issue, I'm all ears.  And if the answer is "live with it" that's fine too 

[glynor]

Under what circumstances does it set itself that way after every build?  Mine does not, I believe, only on fresh installs.

Best to solve that problem, if at all possible.

[6233638]

But what about the other (smaller) half of the problem: those of us who use the driver still have to reset our audio devices every build because windows de-defaults the driver.  Recognizing that the windows reaction to driver installation can't be changed, couldn't the installer detect if the latest driver version is already installed and not reinstall if so?  

I'm hoping that what's been happening is that there has been a change made to the driver in every update thus far, and once things are running smoothly, that will no longer happen.
If it continues, add me to the list of people who will be removing it.
 
Changing the default device is not a problem for me. I run AudioSwitch in the tray because Airfoil already has a bad habit of switching the default audio device when it activates.
 
The issue is that it keeps resetting the custom name, custom icon, output format, and full-range settings. If I have to set that every time MC updates, it's more hassle than it's worth.
 
 
But since both Airfoil and AudioSwitch both set the default device, it's clearly something that programs can do, so JRiver should be able to solve this.

[Hendrik]

But since both Airfoil and AudioSwitch both set the default device, it's clearly something that programs can do, so JRiver should be able to solve this.

Its a reverse engineered interface the control panel uses. There is no way Microsoft officially allows you to use.
They even delete discussions of this process from their MSDN forums, which makes it clear to me that its a terrible solution.

Hence, I would rather not do this.

Regarding resetting all the other settings, thats just how Windows handles driver updates. For some reason it feels the need to reset all settings.

[6233638]

Regarding resetting all the other settings, thats just how Windows handles driver updates. For some reason it feels the need to reset all settings.

I'm just hoping that it gets to the point where the driver is stable and is no longer being updated every version. I assume that the current driver version is checked before installing.
 

Its a reverse engineered interface the control panel uses. There is no way Microsoft officially allows you to use.
They even delete discussions of this process from their MSDN forums, which makes it clear to me that its a terrible solution.
Hence, I would rather not do this.

If you can read the current default and check that Media Center is not changing it, I think that would be more important than whether or not it's "official".

[Hendrik]

I do not think hacks are good solutions to anything, no.

In any case, everyone please just be patient and sit back. There is no point in further discussion or suggestions based on nothing but speculation. We'll change the process as we think makes the most sense.

[Hendrik]

Also, for what its worth, the next version of the driver will no longer call itself "Speakers", but "JRiver Media Center 20" with the digital receiver icon instead of the speaker icon.
I wonder if this categorization change in the audio device would also have an impact on the default assignment behaviour of Windows...

[6233638]

Also, for what its worth, the next version of the driver will no longer call itself "Speakers", but "JRiver Media Center 20" with the digital receiver icon instead of the speaker icon.
I wonder if this categorization change in the audio device would also have an impact on the default assignment behaviour of Windows...

Great! I currently do something similar, but it's been a manual process each time it updates.

[Hendrik]

I'm not sure if I can supply my own icon through the driver, Windows seems to select the icon based on the category I assign. So for now its the digital receiver icon, or maybe the cable icon?
Well at least no longer the generic speakers, I suppose.

[Arindelle]

That's still going to require all kinds of custom builds, which Hendrik already frowned at.  Besides, the "their problem" is really our problem.  Allowing the WDM driver and MC version to go out of sync could possibly cause all sorts of weirdness.

Not debating this, I trust totally in your expertise. But, to help me learn more, I just don't understand. I  noticed recently that my Intel HD graphics drivers were a year out of date, and my AMD gpu drivers were 6 months out of date ... now my machines run better, but they still worked before I downloaded the new ones. AND I know better, just lazy. Why would a driver version require custom builds? If the old driver breaks a new build, just tell people not to whine until they make sure their driver is up to date. Unless, the driver does something even if it is not selected as default? which I doubt. I do get it that the number of people who would still have to be asked "did you update your driver" would be a real drag, though.

But what about the other (smaller) half of the problem: those of us who use the driver still have to reset our audio devices every build because windows de-defaults the driver.  Recognizing that the windows reaction to driver installation can't be changed, couldn't the installer detect if the latest driver version is already installed and not reinstall if so?  

Not so sure if this is the smaller issue really; I bet most people would want this if they took 30 minutes to learn how to use it and sync the video to the audio instead of spending hours on the forum euh "discussing" the matter ... I'm guessing that a lot of new JR users come on board for video, multi channel, and multi-room set-ups. Not just the audio geeks on the older versions. If they have headless configurations set to run and update on windows startup, and they are just learning how to set-up JRiver on clients and this could be really confusing/frustrating to them.

Anyways, nobody can say the devs are not looking into a solution - so patience everyone.

Also, for what its worth, the next version of the driver will no longer call itself "Speakers", but "JRiver Media Center 20" with the digital receiver icon instead of the speaker icon.
I wonder if this categorization change in the audio device would also have an impact on the default assignment behaviour of Windows...

great idea, that will take some of the confusion of it for some people

[mwillems]

Under what circumstances does it set itself that way after every build?  Mine does not, I believe, only on fresh installs.

Every time JRiver updates on multiple systems (windows 7 and 8.1) the driver de-defaults itself for me.  Every time, not just fresh installs.  Some other folks have seen similar, but it looks like it's not consistent (i.e. everyone doesn't have this problem).  I'll wait and see, it's not the end of the world, just inconvenient.

[Matt]

Every time JRiver updates on multiple systems (windows 7 and 8.1) the driver de-defaults itself for me.  Every time, not just fresh installs.  Some other folks have seen similar, but it looks like it's not consistent (i.e. everyone doesn't have this problem).  I'll wait and see, it's not the end of the world, just inconvenient.

Could you test the build that just went up to the beta team and see if this improves?

[glynor]

Its a reverse engineered interface the control panel uses. There is no way Microsoft officially allows you to use.
They even delete discussions of this process from their MSDN forums, which makes it clear to me that its a terrible solution.

Hence, I would rather not do this.

I saw the same when I went down the rabbit hole a while ago.  You can hack it, but each version of Windows needs its own specialized hack, and they break periodically with small updates to Windows.

Rogue Amoeba is certainly not afraid to do hacky things like that, and Airfoil itself is essentially a pile of reverse engineered hacks.  Actually, there was a Debug or Vector podcast a little while ago where Guy English (who worked for them for a time) talked about how troublesome they were to maintain.  Rogue Amoeba has a staff about double (or maybe triple) the size of JRiver's.

[mwillems]

Could you test the build that just went up to the beta team and see if this improves?

Just did and posted my results on the build thread. The build seems to have fixed the issue on the three machines I tested, thanks much!

[Arindelle]

Could you test the build that just went up to the beta team and see if this improves?

Worked perfectly on all machines, Matt. Defaults did not change

And, it was much faster too. Thanks!

[glynor]

For the record, after installing 35 tonight on my server system:

* My JRiver WDM Driver is still called "Speakers"
* My default didn't change from my crappy Realtek onboard.

[6233638]

Nothing changed in 35 for me either. I don't think the driver was updated. (I wasn't prompted for it as usual)

[JimH]

Build 37 is up:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=93304.0

[Sky King]

When going to build 37, the WDM driver was updated and the defaults did not change.  I do see the two-RCA JRiver MC 20 icon for the first time.