Topic: WASAPI: I can only get sound from 24 bit sources (Read 26425 times)

Goalline · « **on:** February 18, 2015, 11:26:16 pm »

I am trying to achieve bit-perfect sound. In doing so I can get sound from 24 bit sources through HDMI to my Pioneer receiver, but no luck with 16 bit sources. I don't want to resample the source, because I then lose the bit-perfect rendering. Bitdepth is set at automatic, and the receiver shows up as a WASAPI device.

Thank you!

glynor · « **Reply #1 on:** February 19, 2015, 01:23:31 am »

Bitdepth doesn't have anything to do with resampling (which is, as the name suggests, changing the sample rate of the file, not the bit depth). Bitdepths can be increased in a "perfect and reversible" way, unlike resampling which is destructive by nature.

So... Your question is confusing.

Are you saying 16-bit audio files don't play at all? If so, then make sure Exclusive Access is enabled in your WASAPI setup. If you disable exclusive access, you must resample all audio files to match the default output format set by Windows. But, again, this is related to the sample rate of the files, not the bitdepth. There is a lot more detail in the Wiki article I linked above.

If you mean something else, then please explain more what is not working about your 16-bit files.

Goalline · « **Reply #2 on:** February 19, 2015, 10:07:36 am »

Thanks for your patience, Glynor. I've been using MC for about 4 years now, but for all intents and purposes, I am still a newbie.

My goal is to keep MC in bit-perfect mode. I am trying not to resample the files, which I have done in the past, because it seems to prevent access to bit-perfect playback. Perhaps, that is another incorrect assumption on my part.

I have tried mucking around with Exclusive Access with no success. I am at work now. I will take a closer look at the link when I get home tonight. Thank you.

6233638 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 19, 2015, 11:12:32 am »

While the terms may be confusing, "bit-perfect" playback generally refers to avoiding resampling or other processing, rather than anything to do with the bit-depth.

You can increase the bit-depth to anything that you like, without affecting the "bit perfectness".
Because all you're doing is literally just adding zeros on the end to pad out the bit-depth.

You should always output the highest bit-depth that your device supports, even if most of your source material is only 16-bit.

Goalline · « **Reply #4 on:** February 19, 2015, 12:50:54 pm »

That makes a great deal of sense. Thank you so much! This board rocks.

Goalline · « **Reply #5 on:** February 19, 2015, 09:36:18 pm »

No luck with the Exclusive Access setting in WASAPI. The playback device is set up for Exclusive Access; MC is set up to accept Exclusive Access. Still will not play 16 bit files. No problem playing 24 bit files.

In Direct sound both 16 bit and 24 bit files play perfectly, but not in WASAPI.

glynor · « **Reply #6 on:** February 19, 2015, 10:10:05 pm »

Quote from: Goalline on February 19, 2015, 09:36:18 pm

No luck with the Exclusive Access setting in WASAPI. The playback device is set up for Exclusive Access; MC is set up to accept Exclusive Access. Still will not play 16 bit files. No problem playing 24 bit files.

Okay. I still wasn't sure you couldn't play the files at all.

What exact error message did MC give you?

Also, please describe the settings under:
Tools > Options > Audio > Audio Device
Tools > Options > Audio > Audio Device > Device Settings
Tools > Options > Audio > Settings
DSP > Output Format

Screenshots would probably be easiest. If you don't know how to make a screenshot, there are two good options.

1. MC can actually do it for you. Make the screen like you want it, and then hit the PrintScreen key on your keyboard. Then, in MC go the Action Window and choose Camera. From the drop down menu choose Copy from Clipboard and hit Acquire. MC will import your screenshot, which you can then attach to a post.

2. What I actually like is a little plugin called Lightscreen. It is open source, free, and runs perfectly. Download it and install it. After it installs you can run it. Under options you can choose where it will save your pictures (I just have mine go to the desktop), and a variety of other options. Click the button with the "bounding square" (resizable-looking square in the middle) and it will dim your screen slightly and let you drag a box on the screen overtop of what you want to screencapture. Then it saves that (and not the entire desktop) to your given directory.

It works great.

EDIT: For any future people who stumble in, this post inspired me to write up this quick guide in the wiki:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Screenshot

Goalline · « **Reply #7 on:** February 19, 2015, 10:24:35 pm »

I will get on it. Thanks!

Goalline · « **Reply #8 on:** February 19, 2015, 10:41:07 pm »

Here is the Tools > Options > Audio > Audio Device > Device Settings

Lightscreen is awesome, BTW.

glynor · « **Reply #9 on:** February 19, 2015, 10:45:46 pm »

Great. If you can post the DSP one too, and most importantly a screenshot of the error itself, that would help.

But, before we go further, I see you're using an Intel onboard HDMI output. Since it is acting funny, and Intel's GPU drivers are... Let's just say they've proven challenging to Intel, I'd recommend you update your GPU drivers:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Troubleshooting_Drivers#Video_Cards_.28GPUs.29

Nothing else in that screenshot above looks out of place or suspicious.

Also, can you describe the files in question in more detail? Number of channels, sample rate, format, etc. Thanks.

glynor · « **Reply #10 on:** February 19, 2015, 10:46:30 pm »

Quote from: Goalline on February 19, 2015, 10:41:07 pm

Lightscreen is awesome, BTW.

It really is.

Goalline · « **Reply #11 on:** February 19, 2015, 10:47:08 pm »

And DSP Output Format

Goalline · « **Reply #12 on:** February 19, 2015, 10:52:11 pm »

I am receiving no error message. The spectrum analyzer acts like the music is playing, the clock shows the song is progressing, yet there is no sound. This happens with all 16 bit sources. FLAC, MP3, WAV, APE...

Thanks for the GPU driver upgrade recommendation.

Goalline · « **Reply #13 on:** February 19, 2015, 10:58:24 pm »

Oh, and these are all 2 channel 16 bit sources. For 24 bit sources both 2 channel and 5.1 FLAC sources work perfectly.

glynor · « **Reply #14 on:** February 19, 2015, 11:08:53 pm »

Quote from: Goalline on February 19, 2015, 10:52:11 pm

I am receiving no error message. The spectrum analyzer acts like the music is playing, the clock shows the song is progressing, yet there is no sound. This happens with all 16 bit sources. FLAC, MP3, WAV, APE...

That really seems like a driver bug then. Try the GPU driver update and report back.

glynor · « **Reply #15 on:** February 19, 2015, 11:11:17 pm »

Lastly... You didn't mention what format the 16-bit files were in (file format and stream type).

I ask because in certain formats (such as AC3) since you have bitstreaming enabled, then it will try to bitstream the files rather than decode them natively. So, in this case, it would be up to your AVR (or whatever your HDMI out is connected to) to decode the files properly.

It may not be able to decode these files, if that is the case.

Oops. You did say, I just misread (I thought it said it worked with all formats of 24-bit audio, but not what you said).

glynor · « **Reply #16 on:** February 19, 2015, 11:22:11 pm »

Nothing in your settings looks amiss. You may want to consider:

1. Disabling bitstreaming. This will let MC itself decode the audio and send your receiver bit-perfect and well decoded PCM audio.

FYI: Decoding digital audio sources isn't the type of thing that impacts quality. It is an either "can do it correctly" or "cannot do it correctly" type of thing. However, I've found MC's decoders to be much more resilient than the decoders built into many different receivers I've tested. They're also probably faster (the AC3 decoders in your receiver or DAC are going to be cheap integrated circuits likely mass produced for cost and volume not "quality") since MC has all the power of a massive Intel CPU behind it.

2. Enabling the Output Format DSP. This can be easily configured (and really works this way by default) to pass-through "natively" everything your output device can possibly pass through (bit-perfectly).

But if configured properly, you can also save yourself the trouble of failed playback for "oddball" file formats. Say, for example, you have a stereo setup, and you usually only play stereo audio tracks. That's fine, but what if you do want to play, just for a bit, a 5.1 surround AC3 file for some reason? Normally playback would fail, but the Output Format DSP will automatically downmix these files (while leaving your stereo stuff alone).

Another example I've hit occasionally is oddball audio formats. Download some kind of voicemail attachment (that has a weird or crazy-low sample rate) or crazy high-resolution audio file and you might get an error instead of working playback. The ability to set resampling behavior for individual input sample rates is quite handy. So, you can set MC to leave everything alone, except those formats that your sound device can't handle anyway, and then resample only those file formats. It works very well.

Neither of these things will impact this particular issue, however, so let's solve that first.

Goalline · « **Reply #17 on:** February 19, 2015, 11:47:27 pm »

Enabling Output Format works. It is the way I have always handled things in the past, but I was hoping to achieve playback without resampling. BTW, upgrading the graphics card failed to solve the issue at hand.

glynor · « **Reply #18 on:** February 20, 2015, 01:03:23 am »

Post a screenshot of how you have the Output Format DSP when enabled that makes it work.

Also, the Output Format DSP doesn't necessarily resample everything. It only resamples (and downmixes) when it has to, and everything else can be set to pass through.

Lastly, can you open the Windows Sound Control panel and run the audio test with it set to 16-bit and the various sample rates? While you're there, a screenshot of the Supported Formats tab would help too.

JimH · « **Reply #19 on:** February 20, 2015, 07:44:08 am »

WASAPI has an option called "Event Style". Try it both ways.

Vincent Kars · « **Reply #20 on:** February 20, 2015, 08:53:23 am »

As 24 bit plays and 16 doesn't; what happens if you set bit depth to 24 instead of automatic?

glynor · « **Reply #21 on:** February 20, 2015, 09:47:25 am »

Both of those items were things I was going to suggest next. The fact that:

1. MC thinks it is playing (there is no error) but sound doesn't come out and
2. The Output Format DSP "fixes" it

Made me very curious about what is going on.

Definitely worth trying Jim's idea. I'd be surprised if Intel targeted the old API, but you never know with their drivers. I haven't used Intel onboard HDMI output. I know people here have though.

We can almost certainly fix it by setting the bit-depth output format directly, but I want to know why if you have to do this. Not playing 16-bit (very common) files but working with 24-bit files is very bizarre. So, I'd still like the screenshots and details if you can.

Goalline · « **Reply #22 on:** February 22, 2015, 07:28:59 pm »

Hi Guys, I was out of town. Let me try your suggestions out. Thanks!

Goalline · « **Reply #23 on:** February 22, 2015, 07:46:28 pm »

Output Format set up(works, but wish I didn't have to change the sample rate:

Goalline · « **Reply #24 on:** February 22, 2015, 07:54:12 pm »

Quote from: Vincent Kars on February 20, 2015, 08:53:23 am

As 24 bit plays and 16 doesn't; what happens if you set bit depth to 24 instead of automatic?

Introduces this error.

Goalline · « **Reply #25 on:** February 22, 2015, 08:15:56 pm »

Doesn't change anything whether I use the event style option or not. Yes, extremely bizarre that 16 bit files won't play. They do play on Windows Media if that will help.

glynor · « **Reply #26 on:** February 22, 2015, 09:33:30 pm »

Are you sure you don't have Exclusive Mode disabled somehow? Because that is the exact behavior I'd expect if:

* Exclusive mode is disabled
* The Windows Default Format is set to 24-bit 48kHz in the Windows Sound Control Panel

This is explained in the section of the Exclusive Access article called Issues with Disabling Exclusive Access in WASAPI. That exact error message is expected, and that exact set of Output Format DSP settings would likely "fix" it (depending on your default output settings in Windows).

One thing to check is the requirements. If you have either checkbox relating to Exclusive Access disabled for your sound device in the Windows control panel shown in the Requirements section, then I can see it acting bizarrely. Because MC would think it was using Exclusive Access, but Windows would be denying it the right to use exclusive access, and so the sound just wouldn't work for 16-bit 44.1kHz files, until you resample them to match the default format in Windows.

That's pretty much all I've got, aside from some kind of terminally broken Intel driver. But I know people use onboard Intel HDMI out here, so there'd be all sorts of complaints, so that doesn't make sense.

Also, just to explain:

Quote from: Goalline on February 22, 2015, 08:15:56 pm

They do play on Windows Media if that will help.

Windows Media Player does not use WASAPI, but uses the older DirectSound API, which automatically resamples all output when needed to match the default format. So the fact that it works there is largely irrelevant. You could do the same in MC by changing your Output Format to DirectSound or Wave Out. Don't do that, though.

TheGame · « **Reply #27 on:** February 22, 2015, 11:23:35 pm »

I am not sure if you have tried/checked this or not, but do you have your source as the default device in Windows audio? Since you are using an HDMI cable to your receiver, I assume you are using your GPU. Which GPU card manufacturer are you using? I know for a while now, nVIDIA has been adding High Definition Audio Drivers to their GPU drivers. Perhaps you can go into your Windows Control panel and try setting your GPU's HDMI output port to the default Playback Device if your card has Audio drivers (if nVIDIA then it most likely does):

In Windows:
Start->Control Panel->Sound

In the window that pops up, check to see if there is an option for your GPU's HDMI port and select it as the default playback device and check in JRiver that the same device you have set as the default playback device in Windows is selected in JRiver.

I am not sure if this is the issue you are having or if you have tried/checked this, but I hope I can help in some way.

Goalline · « **Reply #28 on:** February 22, 2015, 11:34:16 pm »

Glynor, here's the screen shot showing exclusive access is enabled. Thank you so much for your help.:

Goalline · « **Reply #29 on:** February 22, 2015, 11:39:16 pm »

TheGame, I am using the receiver's DAC as my output device...I believe.

Also:

TheGame · « **Reply #30 on:** February 22, 2015, 11:44:51 pm »

Yeah it looks like you have your GPU's audio output selected correctly in Windows. I'm sorry I was hoping maybe I could help you find a solution. If I figure anything out, I will post.

Goalline · « **Reply #31 on:** February 22, 2015, 11:55:54 pm »

Thanks guys. Unfortunately, starting to think Glynor is right. GPU driver issues.

6233638 · « **Reply #32 on:** February 23, 2015, 07:52:39 am »

Try changing the bit-depth from automatic to 24-bit padded in Media Center's config.
And set the device in Windows to the highest bit-depth and sample rate that it supports.

Goalline · « **Reply #33 on:** February 23, 2015, 10:19:59 am »

Doesn't work. Time to build a C.A.P.S. unit perhaps?

6233638 · « **Reply #34 on:** February 23, 2015, 01:02:10 pm »

You definitely updated to the latest Intel drivers?
This just seems absolutely bizarre.

Goalline · « **Reply #35 on:** February 24, 2015, 10:17:20 pm »

I will have my son confirm it.

glynor · « **Reply #36 on:** February 25, 2015, 09:54:28 am »

Make a log zip file and post it here. Instructions:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Logging

I can check the driver version for you from that.

Goalline · « **Reply #37 on:** February 26, 2015, 10:18:34 pm »

Media Center
Install Path: C:\Program Files (x86)\J River\Media Center 20\
Interface Plugins: TiVo Server (not running)
JRMark: never run
Library: 5524 files, 792 KB in library, 32.0 MB in thumbnails
Resources: 82.4 MB memory, 352 handles
Version: 20.0.73.0 Registered
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Free Physical Memory: 4.1 GB
Total Memory: 7.9 GB
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Microsoft Windows 7 64-bit
Power
Playback (disable automatic sleep)
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ACPI x64-based PC (driver 6.1.7600.16385)
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Goalline · « **Reply #38 on:** February 26, 2015, 10:21:36 pm »

Interesting new discovery. It will play 16 bit 48,000 files, but still won't play 16bit 44.1K without changing the output.

glynor · « **Reply #39 on:** February 26, 2015, 10:42:51 pm »

Quote from: Goalline on February 26, 2015, 10:21:36 pm

Interesting new discovery. It will play 16 bit 48,000 files, but still won't play 16bit 44.1K without changing the output.

That's not surprising at all. I'd assumed it would. This doesn't have anything to do with the bit depth, and is all about the sample rates.

If you change the default format in Windows to 44.1, I suspect it will reverse the situation and then:

* Play all 44.1kHz files correctly
* Fail to play all 48kHz files.

Exclusive Access seems to be broken, though enabled, on your system.

The driver versions listed for the GPU and Display Audio are the current versions for your CPU's onboard GPU. I'd recommend this:

1. Download the latest version of the Intel GPU drivers from here:
https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/24696/Intel-HD-Graphics-Driver-for-Windows-7-8-8-1-64-bit

2. Uninstall your current installation using the through the Device Manager method, as is described here:
http://www.intel.com/support/graphics/sb/CS-034574.htm

Be sure to uninstall both the GPU driver and the Display Audio driver, and make sure you check the box to delete the software.

3. As a third step (after #2) remove the Intel GPU driver through the normal Windows Add/Remove Programs control panel too.

4. REBOOT. DO NOT SKIP THIS.

5. After rebooting, reinstall the Intel GPU driver you downloaded in step 1.

Try again. Make sure MC is set to use WASAPI Exclusive Access.

glynor · « **Reply #40 on:** February 26, 2015, 10:50:33 pm »

Also, can you take a screenshot of the Supported Formats tab of your driver dialog page?

glynor · « **Reply #41 on:** February 26, 2015, 11:07:37 pm »

Ooh. Before you try the uninstall/reinstall... I noticed something. It shouldn't be required here because you're not bitstreaming these particular file formats. However, you do have bitstreaming enabled, and I don't see a driver version listed for your Intel Management Engine Interface. Mine lists it like this:

Intel(R) Management Engine Interface (driver 8.1.0.1263)

Yours just says:

Quote from: Goalline on February 26, 2015, 10:18:34 pm

Intel(R) Management Engine Interface

No driver version listed. That's suspicious.

This is required for bitstreaming lots of formats on Intel hardware. I've read all sorts of posts on AVSForum and other places about problems with the Intel onboard Display Audio driver without having IMEI installed, and I know it is broken when you're bitstreaming. I wonder if your IMEI driver is not installed or borked?

If you find it in Device Manager, what driver version does it have? It should be under System Devices and called Intel(R) Management Engine Interface.

You might need to get this from your motherboard vendor. Search Google for: Intel Management Engine Interface 8.1.0.1263 and your motherboard vendor. Or visit your manufacturer's support site and see what they have.

glynor · « **Reply #42 on:** February 26, 2015, 11:11:27 pm »

Oh yeah, and since you have it disabled anyway, uninstall the Conexant Smart Audio driver entirely. You can use the same method I described for removing the Intel driver.

You can also disable it in the BIOS of your computer, so it doesn't try to reinstall itself.

Goalline · « **Reply #43 on:** February 26, 2015, 11:54:13 pm »

Quote from: glynor on February 26, 2015, 10:50:33 pm

Also, can you take a screenshot of the Supported Formats tab of your driver dialog page?

Goalline · « **Reply #44 on:** February 27, 2015, 12:03:22 am »

Quote from: glynor on February 26, 2015, 11:07:37 pm

Ooh. Before you try the uninstall/reinstall... I noticed something. It shouldn't be required here because you're not bitstreaming these particular file formats. However, you do have bitstreaming enabled, and I don't see a driver version listed for your Intel Management Engine Interface. Mine lists it like this:

Intel(R) Management Engine Interface (driver 8.1.0.1263)

Yours just says:

No driver version listed. That's suspicious.

This is required for bitstreaming lots of formats on Intel hardware. I've read all sorts of posts on AVSForum and other places about problems with the Intel onboard Display Audio driver without having IMEI installed, and I know it is broken when you're bitstreaming. I wonder if your IMEI driver is not installed or borked?

If you find it in Device Manager, what driver version does it have? It should be under System Devices and called Intel(R) Management Engine Interface.

You might need to get this from your motherboard vendor. Search Google for: Intel Management Engine Interface 8.1.0.1263 and your motherboard vendor. Or visit your manufacturer's support site and see what they have.

Wish I had read this before I uninstalled the old GPU driver. My fault. Too eager to start.

Anyway, here is the IMEI driver info.

Goalline · « **Reply #45 on:** February 27, 2015, 12:07:44 am »

And the updated driver.

glynor · « **Reply #46 on:** February 27, 2015, 12:12:16 am »

Quote from: Goalline on February 27, 2015, 12:03:22 am

Wish I had read this before I uninstalled the old GPU driver. My fault. Too eager to start.

No biggie. It won't hurt, and could fix it. That's basically Intel's recommended troubleshooting I found in their support pages for HDMI Display Audio. It does look like (from trolling forum postings) that the Intel HDMI Display Audio driver can be... Troublesome for some people. Lots of people don't have trouble, I think, but it does seem fragile from the other troubleshooting posts I'm reading (I've not found anything directly applicable to your issue, though).

But lots of "No audio" and "missing formats" posts out there, with something approaching "I beat on the drivers like an ape and suddenly it started working" resolutions.

Quote from: Goalline on February 27, 2015, 12:03:22 am

Anyway, here is the IMEI driver info.

So, I'm on newer hardware, and IMEI is weird, but that looks old. As I posted above, I'm on:

Quote from: glynor on February 26, 2015, 11:07:37 pm

Intel(R) Management Engine Interface (driver 8.1.0.1263)

That's the one I got from ASUS's website for my motherboard, and is the one they still list. I think the current versions are v10, but Intel makes figuring those out difficult, and they don't publish them directly (except for Intel-branded motherboards).

What make/model is your computer? I can probably look it up for you if you can't find it.

glynor · « **Reply #47 on:** February 27, 2015, 12:13:00 am »

Quote from: Goalline on February 27, 2015, 12:07:44 am

And the updated driver.

Okay, cool. Let me know if there are any changes.

Goalline · « **Reply #48 on:** February 27, 2015, 12:16:58 am »

Well, one rather unpleasant change. No sound at all from the system, not even from the device test.

Goalline · « **Reply #49 on:** February 27, 2015, 12:20:19 am »

Oh, the machine is a Dell Inspiron 660.

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Author Topic: WASAPI: I can only get sound from 24 bit sources (Read 26425 times)