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[Vocalpoint]

There is no actual data supporting the prediction that it is not sustainable when you see the actual amount of music being produces, instead of just believing that only people who get rich by it will bother to produce music.

The only fact on sustainability that really matters from a business perspective is that none of these "streaming" services have ever earned a nickel in profit. And given their current business model - none likely ever will.

You can only sustain that for so long until the well runs dry. And it always does.

VP

[6233638]

I am not saying JRiver should be a streaming company. But spotify, google, apple music, these aren't going away anytime soon, and if they are, everything indicates a new streaming company will take over, whether they make money or not. It is in this reality MC must operate, the reality where streaming is popular amoung the music-listening and video-watching public.

This is why I think the solution is to get the audio from these streaming apps into Media Center, rather than JRiver building in custom support for each service.
 
Developing custom support for individual streaming services seems to be an increasingly bad idea from a business perspective unless you're a company the scale of Sonos, as there seems to be one or two new services launching every year, these streaming companies often seem to update/change their APIs in ways that breaks the service every few months, requiring additional work, and most companies seem to cut off their APIs after a year or two if they get big enough to not have gone out of business by then.
 
With iOS it seems relatively easy to get the audio from each service's app into Media Center, as you can stream AirPlay to a PC-based receiver and forward the audio to MC via the WDM Driver.
I don't know if Android has that capability built in though, or what standard they're using for that - if any.
 
The only thing which seems to complicate matters there, is being able to route the WDM input to your desired speaker output easily.
The WDM driver has a few issues right now such as stalling, and there's no convenient way I can see to direct WDM Audio to a specific zone.
To do that would probably require JRiver to develop their own AirPlay receiver, so that each Zone shows up as a unique AirPlay device - and that's something they have said won't be happening.
 
The next best thing would be an easy way to quickly route WDM Audio to a zone of your choice - which I guess could perhaps be done by playing WDM Audio to its own zone, and then linking that to your desired output on-the-fly, but that means you are jumping between apps (the streaming app and JRemote) which quickly becomes a nuisance if it's something you are going to be doing a lot.

[flac.rules]

The only fact on sustainability that really matters from a business perspective is that none of these "streaming" services have ever earned a nickel in profit. And given their current business model - none likely ever will.

You can only sustain that for so long until the well runs dry. And it always does.

VP

Netflix makes money right? And as a customer, the business perspective isn't the important part, it is whats being created that is the important part. Music streaming makes little money today due to the record companies having to big of a cut. We will see how it all ends, I find it unlikely it will end in the death of music streaming.

[flac.rules]

This is why I think the solution is to get the audio from these streaming apps into Media Center, rather than JRiver building in custom support for each service.
 
Developing custom support for individual streaming services seems to be an increasingly bad idea from a business perspective unless you're a company the scale of Sonos, as there seems to be one or two new services launching every year, these streaming companies often seem to update/change their APIs in ways that breaks the service every few months, requiring additional work, and most companies seem to cut off their APIs after a year or two if they get big enough to not have gone out of business by then.
 
With iOS it seems relatively easy to get the audio from each service's app into Media Center, as you can stream AirPlay to a PC-based receiver and forward the audio to MC via the WDM Driver.
I don't know if Android has that capability built in though, or what standard they're using for that - if any.
 
The only thing which seems to complicate matters there, is being able to route the WDM input to your desired speaker output easily.
The WDM driver has a few issues right now such as stalling, and there's no convenient way I can see to direct WDM Audio to a specific zone.
To do that would probably require JRiver to develop their own AirPlay receiver, so that each Zone shows up as a unique AirPlay device - and that's something they have said won't be happening.
 
The next best thing would be an easy way to quickly route WDM Audio to a zone of your choice - which I guess could perhaps be done by playing WDM Audio to its own zone, and then linking that to your desired output on-the-fly, but that means you are jumping between apps (the streaming app and JRemote) which quickly becomes a nuisance if it's something you are going to be doing a lot.

No, I don't think custom support is the best route, but maybe making it easier (if possible or necessary) for members to create plugins. And having more systems in place for "generalized communications" towards the streaming services, like the WDM driver that can be used for most services, maybe there is possibilities to have a more general information extraction that is not only audio, but works with many services.

[MikeO]

My 2 penneth to a fascinating debate is more around the hardware side

I live in South Africa and our data costs are simply ridiculous if you buy capped bundles, that would make streaming a very expensive option. As it is I have a uncapped ADSL line but occasionally my provider sees fit to zap if I go a bit heavy with the usage . The debate rages with them on various forums over what defines uncapped (bit like bottomless coffee !) but all the same streaming music 8 hrs a day would probably put me in their crosshairs even at 128 or 320 let alone Hi Res Streams.

I think the industry is more likely to head towards 24/96 (or higher) as a standard going forward and unless streaming services can match this and data bandwidth can withstand it streaming will more likely be as someone above said "Internet Radio", I gave up transistor radios some years back. I suppose I am a music "Snob" but Hi Fi and all its trappings have been a big part of my life for the last 45 years.

From a more hardware point of view I looked very seriously at a Network Streamer as a means of playing music for "Hi Fi" . I decided against eventually for several reasons

The MAIN one is none of the devices provide (or sell) a Remote App anything vaguely approaching JRemote. The Cambridge Audio was quite good but doesn't even allow a split between Classical and Rock !! Some of the other simply provide a set of thumbnails of Albums without even the simplest navigational aids , not so good when you have 2000 + albums to filter...

The other biggy was the built in DAC side of it giving no choice in how you build your system, not to mention the duplication of DACs . Someone should produce the player without DAC but that's really just a PC anyway.

The final decision was to stick with an HTPC and JRiver.

[glynor]

Netflix makes money right?

Not really:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/3073386-netflix-street-applauds-disastrous-financial-results
http://www.businessinsider.com/netflix-promises-profitability-in-2017-2015-1

They are, like almost all of the streaming companies out there, burning revenue at ever increasing rates (and heavily in debt, and borrowing more) to maintain subscriber growth numbers. Overall, they've never turned a profit globally (when you include all obligations and spending).  They've kept growth reasonably high (though sliding), which keeps the street happy, and props up their stock price, but at what cost?

Long-term profitability is absolutely not a given.  Amazon seems to be allowed to go on forever making almost nothing, but I don't know that the same thing will be true of Netflix and the others.

They're now "promising" they will make "real" profits in 2017 (for the first time).  We'll see.

[MrHaugen]

MrHaugen,
You said something similar five years ago.
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=53694.msg366080;topicseen#msg366080

I still like my answer just below your post.  We do what we do because we love it.

I really like that answer as well! I suspect that many feel the same way of JRiver and MC. Most have been MUCH less involved as you guys of course, but still. As I've pointed out before, you've obviously done a heck of a lot of things right to get to where you are today. Even though I disagree on a very few decisions, you all have my respect.

Regarding me saying something similar previously, I'm sure your right about that. However, I don't think that post give any doomsday forecast about JRiver and audio streaming services specifically? I mentioned that the trend goes toward music, video and images anytime anywhere. And I believe I was spot on in that case. Most services and apps today have some sort of online, streaming and connectivity services. Quite a few only have this.

Yes, I have said similar things before. I'm pretty certain of that. And I still stand by those beliefs. Not many can look into the future. Neither can I! So my time perspective can be off. I can even be totally wrong! It happens.

Streaming services might one day provide lossless streaming and good quality playback. And no matter how unprofitable the streaming services are, you might be in trouble if/when that happens. It can't really be a question; That from a normal music listeners perspective it's great to have access to most of the music with a click of a button, and all for just a few dollars a month.
This is not about you making money on streaming though. I don't think any here suggests that? But supporting it, that's another matter.

[Vocalpoint]

Netflix makes money right?

Netflix makes nothing. Just look up any recent financial statement.

And as a customer, the business perspective isn't the important part, it is whats being created that is the important part. Music streaming makes little money today due to the record companies having to big of a cut. We will see how it all ends, I find it unlikely it will end in the death of music streaming.

To me as a customer - I care about is whether or not the thing I am purchasing will last and if it has value for my dollar. Like Netflix for example - I do not see any "value" whatsoever in Netflix when I scroll thru thousands of boring indie movies I would never watch - I see value as being able to dial up the Avengers (Or Breaking Bad or Mad Men) when the mood strikes. If a streaming service can offer that value - when I want it - then it's golden. If not - I am off to the next thing.

And the fact the record companies require a big cut is exactly to my point. If Bono (or Pink Floyd or Madonna or Taylor Swift) wants more streaming revenue - the record company will inform the streamers of this request. If they refuse to pay it - they will (at some point) most likely lose the catalog (Swift).

This (and certain impending bankruptcy due a certain inability to "sell" enough subscriptions) will be the two deciding factors long term for any streaming provider.

VP

[flac.rules]

Netflix makes nothing. Just look up any recent financial statement.

To me as a customer - I care about is whether or not the thing I am purchasing will last and if it has value for my dollar. Like Netflix for example - I do not see any "value" whatsoever in Netflix when I scroll thru thousands of boring indie movies I would never watch - I see value as being able to dial up the Avengers (Or Breaking Bad or Mad Men) when the mood strikes. If a streaming service can offer that value - when I want it - then it's golden. If not - I am off to the next thing.

And the fact the record companies require a big cut is exactly to my point. If Bono (or Pink Floyd or Madonna or Taylor Swift) wants more streaming revenue - the record company will inform the streamers of this request. If they refuse to pay it - they will (at some point) most likely lose the catalog (Swift).

This (and certain impending bankruptcy due a certain inability to "sell" enough subscriptions) will be the two deciding factors long term for any streaming provider.

VP

Fine, but a lot of other customers likes what streaming has to offer, that's the point, streaming is popular among customers that consume culture, the people MC is selling too.

If streaming disappears, we will just be back to people using the easiest option, that is downloading a copy, and the record companies will lose out. The record companies are short sighted, but I don't think they are that short-sighted.

[Vocalpoint]

If streaming disappear, we will just be back to people using the easiest option, that is downloading a copy, and the record companies will loose out. The record companies are short sighted, but I don't think they are that short-sighted.

While the record companies were complete idiots in the late 90's - I do not think the record companies or today are short sighted when it comes to streaming. They simply walk in, put their catalog on the table and tell Spotify - "If you want it - give us 80% of all your revenue" - if not - have fun with no content. And of course Spotify (and all the others) cut the same kind of deal and are now watching the losses pile up with breakneck pace while the profit remains nil.

The big record companies (unless you are a Tom Petty or Metallica and own your own masters) control this entire pie. Whether or not the streaming vendor survives is of little consequence. Warners or Universal or whoever - could care less if Spotify goes under as long as they get their cut. They will hang in for their 70-80% until financial reality sets in (and it will) at some point in the future.

Then the record companies will do what they always do - peddle their catalogs to the next bidder (or "next big thing") and try to resell it all back to us again

I just read a piece on Vivendi (Universal parent) who are dead set on getting rid of any concept of "freemium" with respect to vendors streaming their stuff. If that happens - Spotify is doomed along with many others.

Ironically - Apple Music might be the only one left standing since there is no "free" option over there.

VP

[flac.rules]

Doesn't matter, streaming will still be popular, even if spotify and all the others dies, and apple is the only one left, because the record companies will make substantially less if no good streaming service exists.

[Vocalpoint]

Doesn't matter, streaming will still be popular, even if spotify and all the others dies, and apple is the only one left, because the record companies will make substantially less if no good streaming service exists.

Logically - it can only survive (and be popular) if people pay for it. So far that's not happening near fast enough.

I guess we shall see...

VP

[widert]

If it was purely up to myself than I would have continued with JRiver and my music stored locally. But I have kids...

And they wan't access to their spotify playlist in all the different zones around the house, which again means I have to ditch my JRiver setup...

I think streaming is the future, and without incorporating a solution that enables streaming from Apple/Spotify, JRiver will slowly loose customers.

Downsides with streaming? Not really... Quality have been rised as an issue, but that is simply wrong, and e.g. Tidal offers CD-quality lossless music streams. Limited internet access? All of the providers offers a "make available offline" option. Play a song that you have already played before, and it will be played from your harddrive...

I would love to see a solution enabling streaming through JRiver, but reading the comments in this thread, I do not really see it happening...

[sunfire7]

JRiver not synching with iPhone and lack of JRemote "make available offline" solution made me left JRiver to spotify.  And now that I have tried apple music, I prefer it since it's very integrated with iOS and iCloud makes it available on my ipad and itunes on mac/win.  I stopped lying to myself:  256kbps and flac files sound the same to me.  flac files only give me peace of mind. nothing else.

[Dr Tone]

I moved to roon.  It's Tidal integration is spectacular, funny since Tidal is supposedly unwilling to cooperate.

[JimH]

Apple DRM:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=98478.0