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[DocLotus]

Changing channels on MCTV is very slow (compared to other TV programs that I have used).  I also get the last channel sound echoing several times until the channel change completes.

I have tried several of the "Options/Video/Display Settings/Wait after change" but that does not seem to help.

Any ideas?

[DocLotus]

Anyone have any thoughts on this problem?

[Yaobing]

What happens if you turn time shifting off and then make a change of channel?   Is it faster?

[DocLotus]

Slightly faster but not by much. The repeating echo is also still there until the channel finally changes.

[Yaobing]

Slightly faster but not by much. The repeating echo is also still there until the channel finally changes.

That seems to indicate that the delay is in the tuner device itself.  There seems to be a true lack of data during channel switching. 

[DocLotus]

Yes, I was wondering about that myself.  The only problem is it works beautifully in WMC (very fast).

Could it be that the tuner sees JRTV differently then it sees WMC?

Does JRTV normally change channels fast (for most users)?

Anyway, tomorrow I get my new Hauppauge 2255 dual tuner; maybe that will cure the slowness. Reading over the Hauppauge FAQs, I saw one thread where they modified the Windows driver to address slow channel changing on the 2200 series tuners (but that was for WMC so have no idea if it will have any effect on JRTV).

Stay tuned.

[Yaobing]

I did wonder about how WMC does on it and figured you would tell me.

I do not know how WMC works in this aspect, but we use Microsoft DirectShow.  When we are not running time-shifting, we simply send a channel changing request to DirectShow and expect video from the new channel to come down the pipe.  No additional process on our part, except to query for new parameters of the new channel, which happens in the background.

[DocLotus]

Just installed the new Hauppauge 2255 dual tuner with the latest drivers... NO DIFFERENCE.  Still getting slow channel changes & the same audio repeating echo until the channel finally completes the change.

[Yaobing]

What is your audio setting?

[DocLotus]

Which audio settings? Tools/Options/Audio? If so which ones?

[DocLotus]

This may help shed some more light on the slow channels changing problem.

I've noticed a difference between the way JRTV & WMC changes channels. Let's say I start my channel hopping from channel 2 & move up the channels from there...

JRTV...
* Can very quickly see the on-screen data for maybe the first 5 or 10 channels then the screen freezes with a lot of audio repeat echoing & first channel image breakup. Usually the only way I can stop it is to either close the TV or close MC & re-load. But sometimes I can cycle though all the channels several times without the hangup or echoing. I see no common reason for this weirdness.

WMC...
* Can cycle though all the channels several times without hangups, echoing or first channel image breakup.

Other...
There seems to be no real difference in the actual time to change channels between JRTV & WMC (that is, when JRTV is not audio repeat echoing & first channel image breakup or freezing up).

It seems that the much faster channels changing of WMC is a perceived one & not actual as changing channels in WMC happens without incident whereas JRTV has the issue of audio repeat echoing & first channel image breakup & freezing.

If the audio repeat echoing & first channel image breakup & freezing issue can be solved than I would say that JRTV channel changing will be as good as it gets (and THAT will make me one happe camper).

[RoderickGI]

I usually get a bit of audio breakup and/or image jitter, or just frozen image initially while the audio plays.

It appears to be related to the audio and video getting into sync when you change channels. I suspect that MC changes immediately, then syncs, while WMC may get the new signal in sync before shifting to the new channel.

Of course I am on completely different equipment. Quad DVB-T tuner from DigitalNow in Australia.

[DocLotus]

Thanks; Roderick.

Good to know I'm not alone in this weird issue.

I've used a lot of TV tuners & software over the years (going back to the 1980's) & this is the first time I have seen this problem in a simple channel change.

Hope it gets fixed soon as it is making JRTV unusable for me (and I really want to use JRTV as my one total TV solution).

[Yaobing]

When I asked you about your audio settings, I did not realize the audio settings have changed a lot already.  So I did not know what I was asking about

You could play with the settings, such as buffering amount to see if there is any improvement.  You can also try turning Video Clock (under Video options) on or off.

When I have time I will try some more tweaking of my code and see if I can improve it a bit.

[DocLotus]

Thanks; any help or improvement in the code will be much appreciated. In the meantime, I will play around with various audio settings (already tried buffering but that did nothing, actually made it worse).

[DocLotus]

Also tried Video Clock 0n & off... no difference.

[DocLotus]

One other thing I have been meaning to mention is many years ago I used JRTV for my main TV viewing & as I recall changing channels was not an issue.

The weirdness when changing channels seemed to start around version 17 (or possibly a little earlier) and several versions of Windows & several computer hardware ago. I'm talking somewhere around Windows XP time as WMC was not available (unless you bought an MS media computer which had the very first WMC in it).

Over the years I kept re-trying JRTV with every version of MC, every version of Windows (Vista, 7, 8.0, 8.1, 8.1 Update), every hardware build & every time I went back to WMC as all attempts of using JRTV had the same channel changing weirdness. So it has been a serious (for me) problem for a very long time.

The only reason I'm tackling the problem now is MS seems to dropping WMC from Windows 10 so JRTV can be a solution (once fixed).

[JimH]

How good is the machine it's running on?  If you do a benchmark under MC's Help, what is the JRMark at the bottom?  I would expect that it would need about 2000 to be OK.

Are you using Red October Standard or HQ?  If you're having trouble, try RO Std.

[DocLotus]

Hi Jim,

Good idea...
=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===

Running 'Math' benchmark...
    Single-threaded integer math... 5.558 seconds
    Single-threaded floating point math... 2.392 seconds
    Multi-threaded integer math... 2.580 seconds
    Multi-threaded mixed math... 1.145 seconds
Score: 1627

Running 'Image' benchmark...
    Image creation / destruction... 0.955 seconds
    Flood filling... 0.669 seconds
    Direct copying... 0.801 seconds
    Small renders... 1.954 seconds
    Bilinear rendering... 1.317 seconds
    Bicubic rendering... 1.002 seconds
Score: 3285

Running 'Database' benchmark...
    Create database... 0.375 seconds
    Populate database... 2.022 seconds
    Save database... 0.470 seconds
    Reload database... 0.086 seconds
    Search database... 1.616 seconds
    Sort database... 1.718 seconds
    Group database... 1.065 seconds
Score: 2924

JRMark (version 20.0.132): 2612

My current computer is a 6 core AMD 6300 CPU running at 4.8GHz, 16 GB of Corsair Dominator memory, late model AMD R9 video card with latest drivers, two Samsung 950 Pro SSD's (drives C & D).

As I mentioned eariler this has been a problem for me going a long way back through several versions of Windows & several completely different hardware builds. THAT is what is so strange about the channel changing problem. If it was hardware one would think it would resolve itself sooner or later with completely different builds. The only common denominator is MC itself.
  
I've tried both RO Standard & HD... no difference.

[JimH]

What are you using as a remote? 

When you say "channel surfing", are you holding channel up or down?  Or how fast do you press them?

[JimH]

JRMark (version 20.0.132): 2612

That's a good machine.  Probably average for a new machine.

[DocLotus]

That's a good machine.  Probably average for a new machine.

I built it a little over 3 years ago. The CPU is actually only rated at 3.3 GHz but I overclocked it to 4.8 GHz (stable).  Used to run it at 5.1 GHz but was sometimes unstable at that speed plus it took a LOT of power.

[JimH]

Could you easily try it without overclocking?

[DocLotus]

What are you using as a remote?

No remote, only keyboard.

When you say "channel surfing", are you holding channel up or down?  Or how fast do you press them?

I do both; either way will often freeze up. Sometimes however I can hold the PgUp or PgDn & the channels will zip on by with no problems; other times only a few will zip by than freeze. After releasing the PgUp or PgDn key the channel will slowly change from the original channel I was viewing to the last channel. During all this the original channel will audio echo over & over until it either freezes up or changes to the new channel. The same thing happens if I press the PgUp or PgDn multiple times (once for each channel change).

[JimH]

What happens if you press the keys repeatedly instead of holding them down?  Try waiting half a second, for example.

[DocLotus]

Could you easily try it without overclocking?

Sure. Give me a day to set it up.

I doubt it is overclocking as this has been happening for a long time before I started OC'ing my computer, but it is worth a try just to rule it out in this case.

I'll get back with you tomorrow.

[DocLotus]

What happens if you press the keys repeatedly instead of holding them down?  Try waiting half a second, for example.

I've tried that several times hoping that MC would "catch up" but it does not seem to help much.

[JimH]

At some speed it must work.  What is that speed?  I'm asking because it might help us find the problem.  Thanks.

[DocLotus]

At some speed it must work.  What is that speed?  I'm asking because it might help us find the problem.  Thanks.

I just tried pressing the PgDn key once, wait for the channel to actually change, press the PgDn again, wait, etc. That does work with some audio echo & some image breakup (not as bad as before).

I than pressed the PgUp key several times to return to the original channel but before it returned MC froze with the mouse cursor showing a constant hourglass. I had to use Windows Task Manager to close MC as it was totally frozen.

[DocLotus]

One other strange thing... sometimes once in a few days instead of the audio echoing just the opposite will happen; the TV channel will start running real fast with the sound producing a very fast Mickey Mouse like sound. At this point I can't change channels as the PgUp & PgDn keys have no effect.  This has happened maybe 4 times in the last week or so.  I had to use Windows Task Manager to close MC.

[JimH]

Turn off Video Clock if it's on.

[DocLotus]

Turn off Video Clock if it's on.

It's already off.  Have tried it on & off... no difference.

[DocLotus]

Could you easily try it without overclocking?

I reset the BIOS to out of the box defaults. Here is the new benchmarks.

=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===

Running 'Math' benchmark...
    Single-threaded integer math... 6.183 seconds
    Single-threaded floating point math... 2.605 seconds
    Multi-threaded integer math... 2.610 seconds
    Multi-threaded mixed math... 1.255 seconds
Score: 1502

Running 'Image' benchmark...
    Image creation / destruction... 0.889 seconds
    Flood filling... 0.776 seconds
    Direct copying... 0.957 seconds
    Small renders... 2.144 seconds
    Bilinear rendering... 1.623 seconds
    Bicubic rendering... 1.231 seconds
Score: 2887

Running 'Database' benchmark...
    Create database... 0.445 seconds
    Populate database... 2.292 seconds
    Save database... 0.493 seconds
    Reload database... 0.090 seconds
    Search database... 1.788 seconds
    Sort database... 1.911 seconds
    Group database... 1.168 seconds
Score: 2626

JRMark (version 20.0.132): 2338

It is hard to make a direct comparison with the channel changing between over clocked & stock BIOS but it seems to be a little better (not by much, fewer lock ups but they are still there).  Also, the audio echoing is as bad as ever & the image breakup is still there.

Let me use it this way for a few hours to see if anything else develops.

[DocLotus]

I re-ran a comparison between JRTV & WMC with some actual times to change channels... there is a noticeable difference. I previous was thinking that WMC channel changing faster times was only a perceived one due to no audio echoing, & image breakup but I was wrong... WMC is much faster changing from one channel to the next.

Here are a few actual times changing one channel at a time with the PgUp & PgDn keys on both programs (all times in seconds on similar channels numbers)...

JRTV     WMC
4.11      2.93
5.81      2.73
4.09      3.50
5.81      3.66
4.67      3.15
4.73      2.87
4.25      2.91
4.39      2.81
3.10      2.98
5.75      2.83

The difference in times for each program to change a channel is due to how long it takes various channels to load.  It seems that any of the PBS channels take longer on both JRTV &  WMC to load.

[DocLotus]

I noticed one little difference about how WMC changes channels vs. how JRTV does the same thing... Screen Blanking & Sound muting!!!

JRTV holds onto the current image until it loads the next channel. WMC does not... it totally blanks (blacks out) the TV screen until the new channel is loaded. WMC also mutes the sound at the same time whereas JRTV keeps the sound.  The ways WMC does it completely avoids all the problems I have been having with sluggish response, image breakup & audio echoing (if you turn it off, you can't have those problems as they will never show up). It also frees the tuner for faster channel switching.

Hope this helps.

[RoderickGI]

My MC channel change times are more similar to your WMC times; Around two seconds usually. No more than three.

You should really do the comparison changing between exactly the same channels, as the resolution and audio specification of each channel will change the time taken to lock on to the signal and sync it.

Screen Blanking & Sound muting!!!

I believe this is probably accountable for a lot of the perception of longer change times. While the out of sync video and audio is a little disconcerting in MC, at least I can see and hear something is happening. I'm not sure I would like the screen to just blank. In fact I think I had that on one of my PVRs, and I never knew if the thing had just locked up on a channel change, or if it was still running and trying to lock on to the signal. Annoying.

Anyway, possibly our hardware differences account for the response time differences.

[DocLotus]

Do you have any audio echoing when changing channels? Mine often does it real bad & sometimes never stops echoing.  Today, another problem came up; when I changed to a new channel I got the image from the new channel but the sound from the previous channel. That was really weird. I had to exit MC & reload it to get out of that mess.

Do you see image tearing & breakup on the previous channel before the change completes? I have it most of the time during channel changes.

Can you hold down the PgDn or PgUp key to quickly cycle through all your channels several times without lockup? Sometimes I can but most of the times I can't.  I can do that all day long in WMC without lockup.

[JimH]

When you say echoing, what is your sound device?

[DocLotus]

When you say echoing, what is your sound device?

Realtek HD Audio 7.1 Surround Sound (built on the motherboard.

The sound often repeats over & over until I close the TV or MC & re-load. This happens only on JRTV.

[RoderickGI]

Do you have any audio echoing when changing channels? Mine often does it real bad & sometimes never stops echoing.  Today, another problem came up; when I changed to a new channel I got the image from the new channel but the sound from the previous channel. That was really weird. I had to exit MC & reload it to get out of that mess.

Do you see image tearing & breakup on the previous channel before the change completes? I have it most of the time during channel changes.

Can you hold down the PgDn or PgUp key to quickly cycle through all your channels several times without lockup? Sometimes I can but most of the times I can't.  I can do that all day long in WMC without lockup.

No I don't get echoing, but I do get one repeat of a short section of sound or sound plus video. Certainly nothing repeating continuously. I get some sound breakup. Sometimes an image from the previous channel will sit there while audio catches up, then the image will change to the new channel. Sometimes the image will flick to the new channel, then back, or it may change to the new channel and stay there, but on a still image waiting for the audio. All this happens whether I use PageUp/PageDown or remote control buttons. I can hold the buttons continuously without any lockup. My chanel list is only about 28 long though, so I hit the end of the list very quickly.   MC doesn't loop around the list. It just stops at either end.

My audio output device is also the motherboard, an ASRock Z77 Extreme6, which uses a Realtek 7.1 CH HD Audio with Content Protection (ALC898 Audio Codec). I am outputting via an S/PDIF optical cable (TOSlink).

So I guess I'm not seeing anything as bad as what you are seeing. That sort of points to the TV card as the difference, or probably more correctly the BDA driver. Possibly some settings somewhere.

[DocLotus]

Thanks for the feedback.

My channel list is also short... 20 channels but holding down the Pg keys will often lock up after 5 or 10 channels; but other times it will run though them all many times with no problems.

Can't be the TV tuner card as I have had four different cards from two different manufacturers & the problem has been with me for a LONG time through several completely different computer builds and various versions of Windows. CPU, Memory, Video cards, TV tuner cards, etc have all been different but the problem persist.

The only common denominator is MCTV itself as it is the only thing that has been used throughout the time frame.

This goes back to sometimes around MC17 (or possibly a little earlier).

I used to use MCTV without these problems but somewhere around v 17 channel changing became a hassle so I switched to WMC. With MS dropping WMC in Windows 10 I once again am looking at MCTV as my TV solution.

Thanks for the great feedback. That was most helpful, now I at least know how MCTV can be working.

[DocLotus]

It looks like we could both benefit from what WMC does during channel changes.. they totally blank out the video (black screen) and mute the audio.  This avoids the problem i have in spades & you have to a lesser degree. I know some people like to see & hear the channel as a channel change takes place but I always found the blank & muted WMC video & audio to be rather peaceful during channel changes as everything happens smoothly and fast. I'll take that to breakup & echoing any day.

Maybe there needs to be an option to blank video & mute audio during channel changes? That way you can have it either way.  

[CountryBumkin]

There was a report that "Crop Edges" caused a performance hit on some machines. If you have this box checked (Tools>Options>Video>Crop Edges), try unchecking it. I don't know if this would affect TV performance, but its worth a try.

[mwillems]

There was a report that "Crop Edges" caused a performance hit on some machines. If you have this box checked (Tools>Options>Video>Crop Edges), try unchecking it. I don't know if this would affect TV performance, but its worth a try.

In my experience it only negatively affects TV performance, and is a pretty significant performance hit.  Disabling it is the difference between lots of dropped frames and no dropped frames with a fairly high end video card.

[DocLotus]

Thanks for the suggestion.

All Crop Edges are already turned off in Options for TV, Video, DVD and the TV on-screen setting are set to Aspect Ratio, No Changes.

I have been suspecting that some little obscure setting that I made YEARS AGO may be causing this problem. I have been using MC (and Media Jukebox) since about v7. Somewhere along the line MC added the nice feature to automatically save all settings & I use that during all restores & new installs. Maybe I need to do a totally clean install of MC & set up the TV without restoring the old settings just to see if that helps.

[JimH]

Doc,
It would help make this thread more readable if you could try not to repeat what you've said before.  Speculation won't help.

It's highly unlikely that a "clean" install would matter.

[DocLotus]

I have been suspecting that some little obscure setting that I made YEARS AGO may be causing this problem. I have been using MC (and Media Jukebox) since about v7. Somewhere along the line MC added the nice feature to automatically save all settings & I use that during all restores & new installs.

So any change that I may have done years ago are still being carried forward.


CountryBumkin... on another thread said...

Check your audio setup. I have best results with WASAPI.

What a GENIUS!!!

That one setting completely cured the audio echoing problem I have been plagued with on MCTV for years.

I was using Default Audio [Direct Sound] & switching to WASAPI blanks the sound between channels similar to the way WMC does it which completely eliminates all stuttering & echoing which had made MCTV useless to me for all these many years.

Switching back to Red October Standard also cured the long lag times I was experiencing changing channels. I had used Standard before (but with Default Audio [Direct Sound]) but it did not help until also switching to WASAPI; the combination of the two is what did the trick.