INTERACT FORUM

I love cheese. Especially the kind that smells like people's feet. And I like beer that smells like skunk.

As a consummate lurker and frequent poster for over two years, I have seen this exact same complaint after Version 7, Version 8 and now Version 9. All of these versions still work and work well. You can quit upgrading any time you want and still have a great product.

Myself, I will gladly pay the upgrade fee to Version 10 and continue to joyfully (OK, sometimes not) use the "New and Improved" Beta's when they come out. It's great fun.

CVIII

Do which? 10 don't work for me, yet. Maybe the next one.
CVIII

Do which? 10 don't work for me, yet. Maybe the next one.
CVIII

Exactly.

Development for MC9 was done(Finished) about 6 months ago

JimH Stated prior to the start of MC9.1 that it would contain bug fixes and some small improvments of MC9. You and others may not have been around then but for users who have been here they were told.

This info is aval someplace in the forum history

MC9 has been under development for about 1 1\2 years and i think it works very well and can't wait to see what MC10 will hold.

I don't know how anyone can call development finished when it (9.x) still has serious bugs.

So you think windows 2000 when finished with 64,000+ bugs was ok then?

I don't see microsoft still fixing windows 1.0, they moved on also

programs are never finished and will always have bugs it is a way of life.

if you have not been reading the forum some bugs will be fixed in the next build of 9.1 as stated by steve today for something or another. so they seem to be planing a few fixes. I would not think or expect that every bug in a the program will be fixed.

For all those comparing SW to a physical hardware items you are being foolish.

When I buy into a product I make an evaluation if it is being actively developed and if it is I base my value of the package on if I trust its development team to further the item.  Would I pay $40 for a static app ?? NO

At this stage I see quite a few areas of MC9.1 that are not finished... The product has been gold for how long ?? And now its development will cease ?? That does not sit well with me.  Basic things like hairstyle just are not yet polished... They still feel beta.  

Please keep a list of bugs you find and post them in the build threads until they're fixed.  Bringing them up in a complaint thread like this isn't helpful.

If you participate in daily builds you will see more changes (good and bad) and experience more speed bumps than what most users (who don't download that often) see.  We love the help but only do it if you enjoy the process too.

From King:

MC9 has been under development for about 1 1\2 years and i think it works very well and can't wait to see what MC10 will hold.

Thanks King.  I feel the same way.

Please keep a list of bugs you find and post them in the build threads until they're fixed.  Bringing them up in a complaint thread like this isn't helpful.

The incredible slowness at updating tags in OGG files is something I've pointed out at least twice, but it's not specific to any build; it's in all of them. Moreover, you've got users who don't download all the builds, but notice problems without knowing whether they are new in a build or have been around for a while. I've also had problems I haven't bothered to report -- like crashing when sending too many files to a CD-R for burning (because it's so hard to see how many have been sent) -- if they are features I haven't been using regularly. So is the OGG problem something you are working on in 9.1, something you will look at in 10, or something you have no interest in fixing? As a paid user of three successive versions, I think I deserve at least knowing the status of this problem and what your plans are.

Why would you buy a product based on what you believe it WILL be, rather than what it IS? That, to me, is just foolish. If the application that you're evaluating is worth $40 to you, as it is RIGHT NOW, then buy it. If not, then don't, and wait and see if it ever does become worth it to you.
 
We see this with every new version of MJ/MC. People assume that the beta is the product. It's not. It's just a beta. Most companies have closed betas. They have a group of people that they allow to beta test and provide feedback, and the general public is left in the dark. They have no idea what's being worked on and what features or bugs may be present. Then one day, the product is released to the public and they are free to download it and evaluate if it's worth buying.

Instead of doing this, JRiver allows anybody to download the beta and play around with it, and provide feedback if they desire. But nobody is requiring you to. If you want a more traditional model, then stay out of the beta threads and don't go any further than the download page. Download only the released version, evalute it, and decide if it's worth buying it.

Don't buy a program based on your expectations of its development. The only people who get to do that are those that have hired a programmer to write a program for them. They get every feature they want, and it'll work exactly the way they want it to. But it will cost a hell of a lot more than $40.

If your expectations aren't being met, then maybe you should adjust your expectations. There's a reason why companies exist that sell HTPC software for hundred's of dollars. If you want software with that kind of feature set, then fork over the money for it. When you pay $40 for a piece of software, don't expect the equivalent of a $200 software package.

Guys,

I want to say one more thing, and then I'll just keep my opinions to myself.

I find it "interesting" (amusing? alarming? disconcerting?) that there are two diametrically opposed views to this issue.  

On the one hand, there are people lamenting about their feelings.  You certainly can't say they're not entitled to "feel" a certain way.  You might believe it illogical and unjust - but everyone is entitle to a feeling.  And I seriously doubt but a few people might be converted based on the posts of others.

On the other hard, there are people saying "don't do this if...  don't do that if...  you should do this...  you should feel...".  Doesn't this seem a bit presumptuous?  Telling people *what* they should feel, do, or believe?  

JRiver is well-experienced in software development - and they are certainly savvy enough to perform a risk-benefit analysis of their decisions.  I imagine they would welcome any feedback - the more datapoints, the better decisions they can make.

Scott-

Why would you buy a product based on what you believe it WILL be, rather than what it IS? That, to me, is just foolish. If the application that you're evaluating is worth $40 to you, as it is RIGHT NOW, then buy it. If not, then don't, and wait and see if it ever does become worth it to you.

I think this was possibly directed at me ?? If so I will explain why... I like and support copmpanies that develop thier product... I support companies that have a vision of what they want and are working to achieve that vision.... I support companies that realize that there is always room for improvements...  

So whether that is foolish to you or not that is how I choose which products to promote and support (and on the topic of promotion you could consider how many MC9 licences I have sold by reccomendation and refferal on external forums... These are not people already on interact but people totally unaware of MC... 10's definately... 100's possibly but I doubt it).. As such a vocal supporter and reccomender of J Rivers products I think its fair to say how you feel genuinely and honestly..

I think MC9 has developed well and is now very different and worth while from v8... I have no idea what route or design v10 is taking and when they have the kinks worked out of the beta program and I can run the beta I no doubt will to see how I feel but honestly I feel $40 on an almost annual basis is too much for me for an audio app and I will probably be less vocal in support and wait and decide about my upgrade depending on as you say, what features the app ends up performing.  Hell my XP licenses end up costing me less on an annualized basis than MC will..

Thats not whining... Thats not pitching for a free licence (despite getting a v8 when buying a v9) and thats not just holding forth (though if J River ever adopted a referal bonus scheme (say 10 licences sold gets you a free upgrade, I would be all over that )... Its honest feedback from a long time MC supporter.

I agree 100% with Doof and King on this.

9.1 IS finished and is available to the public on the downloads page.  Like any product on the market there are unresolved bugs but, UNLIKE most products on the market, JRiver have a very effective and responsive development team that will continue to support users who report bugs in 9.1.  MC 9.1 is the official released product. Evaluate it and buy it or don't buy it.  If you'd prefer Winamp then use Winamp.

Whilst 9.1 is finished (aside from support of bug fixes) do you expect JRiver to sit on their arses and watch the world go by?  No! They, like any other company are working on the future, the next major step in the development cycle of MC.   Unlike other companies though, J River invite anyone to take an active part in this development if they wish to.  Regrettably some people have seen this as a negative thing rather than a positive one.  

Had JRiver kept quiet about v10 development and only invited a select few to provide their input there would not be any threads like this or the other threads I've seen the last few days.  People would be ignorant but happy.  

I'm salute JRiver for having the courage to take a different approach and for allowing people to openly express their opinions.

Quote

Why would you buy a product based on what you believe it WILL be, rather than what it IS? That, to me, is just foolish. If the application that you're evaluating is worth $40 to you, as it is RIGHT NOW, then buy it. If not, then don't, and wait and see if it ever does become worth it to you.

I think this was possibly directed at me ?? If so I will explain why... I like and support copmpanies that develop thier product... I support companies that have a vision of what they want and are working to achieve that vision.... I support companies that realize that there is always room for improvements...  

That wasn't directed to anybody in particular. There's just this general trend I've seen where people rush in an buy MC based on what they believe it will be on some future date. And then they're disappointed when all of their expectations aren't met, they feel ripped off, and then get really pissed off when development on that version stops and JRiver moves on. There's no other product in the world where people do this, that I can think of. Do people look at the blueprints of a new model car, take the prototype for a testdrive, imagine what the real thing will be like, and buy it? No. They buy the finished product, based on what they see in the showroom floor. The beta threads are NOT the showroom. They are the factory. If you're (generic you) uncomfortable buying something based on an incomplete picture, and will feel disappointed if your expectations for the final product aren't met, then you should probably wait until it's released, and then evaluate it from there.
 
You sound more like me. I buy MC because I like its evolutionary nature. I like how tomorrow, there may be some new feature to play with. But you and I full understand that there's a price to pay that come with that. All of the features may not work as expected right away, and may never work as we'd like. But we buy it anyway.

For everybody feeling like they've been ripped off because of MC10's sudden appearance... Look at when MJ8 was released. Not the betas, but the actual release. Then look at MC9's actual release date. Then 9.1. I wish I had an actual date for this, and I swear I'm going to write this information down so that when this debate comes up for v11, I'll have it. But if you do know it... how much time had passed between 8's release and 9's? That's the real question. 10 isn't being released. If history shows us anything, it probably won't see a release for at least 8-10 months. Maybe even more. 9.1 isn't being replaced today, or tomorrow, or even 3 months from now. It will have a lifecycle that's comparable to every other piece of software out there.

There's no other product in the world where people do this, that I can think of.

Do you mean MC or do you mean generically SW... Because if you mean MC I can count 10's of applications that are steered by thier user group and forum.. Many of them freeware also... If you mean generically SW then yes I agree that connection between producer and consumer is one of the exciting and interesting things that has been ushered in by the internet... Great aint it

will feel disappointed if your expectations for the final product aren't met, then you should probably wait until it's released, and then evaluate it from there.

Fair enough comment but anyone that uses HairStyle or multi zone will tell you it feels like a work in progress.  Users buying into MC9 now with those advertized features are not unreasonable to expect that these items would be polished in this version.  Part of the issue here is users buy into a developing product, they see the community and forgive current shortcomings (really look at the freeware xLobby and MyHTPC v HairStyle) as they believe they will be fixed as the program develops.  After all we are at v9.1 not v9.8...

I feel pretty much like the 9.1 upgrade was the first point where MC9 clearly differentiated itself above MJ8.. That point release was the first point you could say that it was clearly head and shoulders above MJ8 and a major version change, MC9 early releases were really like the beta / idea stage of v9.  

Just curious on the timeline also.. When did MC9 go gold ?? May June 2002 ??

The first build of 9.0 I can find not marked as beta was here http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=12896 on 7 April 2003.

First release version was here http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=12269 on May 5 2003.

9.1 beta started life here http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=11625 on 6 June 2003

First non-beta build was here http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=9522 on 8 October 2003

Quote from: Doof on December 06, 2003, 09:39:18 am

For everybody feeling like they've been ripped off because of MC10's sudden appearance... Look at when MJ8 was released. Not the betas, but the actual release. Then look at MC9's actual release date. Then 9.1. I wish I had an actual date for this, and I swear I'm going to write this information down so that when this debate comes up for v11, I'll have it. But if you do know it... how much time had passed between 8's release and 9's?

Most of the releases were accompanied by press releases.  They can be found here:

http://www.musicex.com/mediajukebox/press.html

Guess I did it the hard way huh?    

Quote from: Doof on December 06, 2003, 09:39:18 am

For everybody feeling like they've been ripped off because of MC10's sudden appearance... Look at when MJ8 was released. Not the betas, but the actual release. Then look at MC9's actual release date. Then 9.1. I wish I had an actual date for this, and I swear I'm going to write this information down so that when this debate comes up for v11, I'll have it. But if you do know it... how much time had passed between 8's release and 9's?

Most of the releases were accompanied by press releases.  They can be found here:

http://www.musicex.com/mediajukebox/press.html

I've always wondered... when you send out a press release... who do you send it to? I always hear that phrase used, "we're putting out a press release", but I have absolutely no idea about how one goes about doing that...

The fact that JRiver removed features from 9.1 and put them into 10 should be no surprise,

A walk down memory lane


"It can also play from a TV tuner card; play DVDs"
-CNET's review of Media Jukebox 8.0

However, when Media Center prepared the release of 9.0, they removed TV and DVD functionality from Media Jukebox, even after they were advertised as key features in 8.0.  Thus, people who used Media Jukebox for TV and wanted a bugfree version had to buy 9 if they weren't entitled to a free upgrade

This is truly great -- vastly different opinions being freely posted and discussed -- all without profanity and insults.  Now THAT is vastly different than on any other board that I've seen.

And Zevele, you're right about one thing and wrong about another -- People's feet that smell like cheese is not nearly so good as the other way around. But to refer to yourself as "very average mister average" is WAY off the mark.

Version 5 (which I didn't buy) was a fairly simple jukebox that worked OK -- nothing special but the Forum was. That's why I stayed.
Version 6, which I also didn't buy, was a cantankerous piece of garbage ...  with some jewels-in-the-rough scattered throughout. They NEVER DID get the problems with burning straight.

Then along comes Version 7 and I finally DID buy it ... my very first software purchase and my very first on-line purchase. I fell in with a will beta testing and I believe that I helped them get those pesky CD burning problems straight. Maybe I didn't but I like to THINK that I did. At least when Version 7 was "released", I got my name in the credits as a Beta-tester. It's not my real name but I was still tickled.

Then I downloaded Version 8 ALPHA. It made Version 6 look rock-solid. After a while, Version 8 got really good and then Version 9 comes along. It took a while but IT got pretty good, too and became Media Center instead of Media Jukebox. And now Version 10 (it seems like an alpha to me -- it don't work for me but I have faith) has appeared.

All this incoherent rambling is leading to my points --- finally. At the release of EVERY new version, there have been bitter complaints about the previous version not being finished.
AND.... the thing that holds all of this together is this forum, our participation and JRiver's willingness to listen and respond.

I would venture to say that there has NEVER been a bug-free Media Jukebox or Media Center. Regardless of the actual version number, this is a work-in-progress. There is no definite point that designates the end of one version and the beginning of another other than a decision to give it a different number.

Is it about money? Sure it is.
JimH has attracted some top-notch people to help JRiver along in their BUSINESS and, despite their obvious loyalty, they still have to be paid. I, for one, am still on board and paying my way and am getting a bargain. But that's my choice. You all can make your choice, too and whatever that choice is, all is well.

Whew!

CVIII

All this incoherent rambling is leading to my points --- finally. At the release of EVERY new version, there have been bitter complaints about the previous version not being finished.

How true, how true.

AND.... the thing that holds all of this together is this forum, our participation and JRiver's willingness to listen and respond.

Agreed and thanks.

I would venture to say that there has NEVER been a bug-free Media Jukebox or Media Center.

Programmers say that any non-trivial software has bugs.  It's like a paint job.  If you look closely, you can always find something.  (Or maybe I should have said "survey".)  

I don't mean this as an apology for bugs -- we truly do our best to fix anything non-trivial.  Eventually the benefits aren't worth the risks (a bug fix can break something else).  

And... sometimes a bug isn't ours.  It's in the OS or in a driver.

Not to beat a dead horse, but why would CNET review an unfinished program?  DOn't you submit the program to CNET for them to review?  They specifically mention TV and DVD as part of MJ8.  I doubt CNET would join the forum and review a beta version for their website

CNET's review....
http://reviews.cnet.com/Media_Jukebox_8_0/4505-3514_7-20062353-2.html?tag=review

They did give you a great review on 8.x.  The review of 9 was among the worst I've seen on their site.   If you do take their review to heart, you should do what you implied on thie board, "dumb down" media center 10  to appeal to newbies and less to the audiophiles on this forum.

First off, I want to be clear that I'm not complaining about being asked to pay more money. I appreciate the fact that JRiver is a company interested in the bottom line and, as such, charges what they feel is a reasonable fee for their product and one the market will bear (as evidenced by our presence here and the money in their bank accounts).

But it also should be noted that JRiver is a company that pays phenomenal attention to the concerns and comments of their customers and along with that openness comes a responsibility. A responsibility that is being observed in this thread.

I wasn't around for the transition from 8 to 9 or 7 to 8 or any of the other transitions. I'm sure people complained about it then just like we're complaining about it now. The question becomes whether JRiver learned anything from those past experiences to apply to this one.

If the lesson you learned was "People complain and then get over it," that's not a productive lesson and perhaps illustrates a serious flaw in the way you interact with your customers.

I don't think that's really the lesson you learned.

I think you learned "Some people complain and leave, but lots of others stay." And I think that's an equally damaging presumption to make. Yes, some of us may leave over this decision, others will complain but eventually return and some will remain firmly behind JRiver.

I think, though, that the lesson you should have learned before and should certainly learn now is that daily builds build damaging expectations. Now, I know that this is going to be a fairly unpopular stance but I would ask you to think not as daily visitors to this site, but as an occasional visitor who drops in maybe once a month to check on progress.

As an occasional visitor, you drop in every once in a while to see a product continually reshaping itself, tracking down bugs adding panes, moving trees around, changing the GUI. And you think to yourself, "Well, it's not really finished and there's some stuff that doesn't work so great, but they're constantly changing it so we'll get there sooner or later."

And this brings us to our second problem. There are too many poorly executed features in MC 9. Hairstyle never should have been in MC 9 if you weren't planning on finishing it in this version of the software. If TV viewing and recording doesn't work 95% of the time (I have no idea if it does or doesn't, I just needed another example of something) and you're not planning on having all the kinks ironed out, don't include it. Don't make sweeping changes to your GUI (whether you can work the bugs out or not) without transitioning to a new software version.

Software needs to have every choice made before it ever winds up in the hands of the consumer so that incremental releases are bug fixes, not adding new features, not changing the GUI, just bug fixes.

To that end, I think JRiver needs to reshape customer expectations by sealing beta testing with the occasional preview build if you feel like you need customer input on feature sets or GUI design. Have the details nailed before you release MC 10 and don't release a 10.1. Having to release a 10.1 means that there's something you didn't put in 10 the first time around. If it's so neat, get it in there the first time. If it isn't worth waiting for, ship it in MC 11.

JRiver is preparing to move onto a fairly large national stage (just a guess, but a fairly safe one I presume given the "big news" and the proliferation of online music stores). I urge you to consider the events occuring here and possibly learn something new from them.

skills

ps - Seriously, congratulations on a fantastic product, your workmanship and attention to your customers is something that every person at JRiver should be very, very proud of.

'Let My Love Open The Door' Charted At 09 In 1980

Listening to: 'Let My Love Open The Door' from 'The Best Of Pete Townsend' by 'Pete Townsend' on Media Center 11

Thats right... I probably got too much of a grump on as well...

It is / was a shock to hear that 10 is now the focus so soon after 9 went gold (I still say thats one hell of a short product life cycle) but not buying v10 would be cutting off my nose to spite my face...

One thing I would ask... PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make some way were a registered user can follow the development while it is in beta a bit better than one 30 day window..

I dont see why betas cant be a 14 day time lock at any install and point releases 30 days... So what if lots of betas come out... Is not the point of beta SW to assist the dev team in finding bugs and working on the product.  So if I dont have a license I get 14 days (hell make it 7) and bam the program is gone that seems enough push that if the feature set is appealing you register... If it has not yet convinced you, you can live with the major hassle of a 15 Mb download one a week or fortnight and see when and if it does fit your needs.

That solution would give J River the opportunity to let people see the app at its developing stages, still control 'free' use, encourage those following betas to upgrade regularly and do nothing to jeperdize the sale of licences on 'gold' versions.  

Color me dumb but I really dont see how that kind of a setup is unfair to the biz plan and J River ?? Its giving nothing away other than the ability to evaluate the 'current' performance of the application (one of the continual comments is that MC is constantly evolving so one 'look' at MC 10 in its early gestation is not enough) and its probably only your board regulars that would live with 7 day limits anyway... Encouraging people to keep putting betas through the wringer... Is that not the idea ??  

Just my 5 baht