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[IAM4UK]

I assume JRiver is aware of current push to eliminate the cable card technology
http://www.multichannel.com/news/technology/dlna-also-wants-cablecard-successor-talks/386834
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AllVid

That being said, encrypted cable card support is something needed now and it will be years before new technology comes out and fully replaces the existing cable card based infrastructure.

That article does not alarm me as I suspected it might. It says of the new way they're potentially pursuing, "... allow subscription TV content from multichannel video programming distributors (MVPDs) to be supported on retail-bought devices, including set-tops, gaming consoles, tablets and PCs. Under that initiative, all content from the pay-TV provider, including live, linear TV, DVR recordings and video-on-demand fare, would be delivered securely to those devices over the home network from an MVPD-supplied gateway/server." If I can have television programming on my PC without renting a STB from the provider, that's suitable. I do hope they don't mean streaming, though. My DVR recordings must be local, or I'm not interested. Bandwidth is a commodity they make us pay for by the MB, and I don't want to pay twice for the same content.

[IAM4UK]

I definitely want a more WMC-like DVR/TV viewing experience from MC, and would be willing to pay something for it.
- Must be able to call up the guide as an overlay on existing playback, not having to stop a program to view the guide an select another.
- Stability of playback needs improvement (currently stops automatically every hour on the hour).
- Accessing recorded programs in Theater Mode would be very handy, and the WMC "Recorded TV" implementation was quite good.

[Daniel Warner]

- Must be able to call up the guide as an overlay on existing playback, not having to stop a program to view the guide an select another.

This. Definitely this!!

[Yaobing]

How does this relate to the DVB-CI+, the Digital Video Broadcast technology used in Europe with a Common Interface and a CAM (module) for Conditional Access?

All (payed) channels are encrypted, with a different technology from CableCARD used in the US which makes MC useless in Europe for TV.

If this is on the to do list: +1 !

This is relevant for at least:
    Albania
    Bulgaria
    Belgium
    France
    Germany
    Italy
    Luxembourg
    Netherlands
    Poland
    Romania
    Russia
    Spain
    Sweden
    Switzerland
    Turkey
    United Kingdom

so please, this is the chance!

As Jim mentioned somewhere, we will try to be as broad as we can.  However, we still do not know exactly whether we will be able to support this at the moment.

[muzicman0]

- Accessing recorded programs in Theater Mode would be very handy, and the WMC "Recorded TV" implementation was quite good.

This is easy to create currently (although, I agree it should be there by default if you are billing this as enhanced TV).  Basically though, just create a view in Theater view that filters to only your recorded TV folder on your hard drive.  I have one currently.

[greynolds]

This is easy to create currently (although, I agree it should be there by default if you are billing this as enhanced TV).  Basically though, just create a view in Theater view that filters to only your recorded TV folder on your hard drive.  I have one currently.

The pieces that really need work in Theater View are the guide and recording management.  I agree that current support for browsing TV that has already been recorded is fine, but the guide really needs some improvement and the current implementation of managing recordings in Theater View is nowhere near as easy to use as WMC's implementation.

[JimH]

If you have suggestions unrelated to the topic, please use another thread.

[greynolds]

If you have suggestions unrelated to the topic, please use another thread.

Jim, the way the discussion has been going at least implies that the Kickstarter will involve changes that make use of the improved EPG data.  Without those changes, the new EPG doesn't seem like an overly meaningful feature as the guide data you're currently getting from Rovi is already pretty good and should be sufficient to implement functionality equivalent to WMC (which is using the same EPG data from Rovi), at least in the USA.

If the goal is to make MC a replacement for WMC, then support for Copy Once content is needed, and enhancements to series recordings are needed.  Better EPG data would be a nice bonus, but not strictly needed (again, at least for the USA).

So are changes that make use of improved guide data outside of the scope of the Kickstarter?

[RoderickGI]

I don't recall ever experiencing WMC alter timer recordings when previous programs ran late here in the USA.

I think the functionality was based on the "Now & Next" program information broadcast OTA in Australia, the UK, and elsewhere. Is that data broadcast in the USA? Maybe you can confirm.

It also could have been in CRID data.

I would love to have the same capability in MC, as Now & Next is actually useful in Australia, in that it exists and is reasonably accurate, at least for extending recording times on late running recordings.

PS: Oops. Sorry Jim. I should have read the whole thread before responding.

[darichman]

Count me in if there's Australian EPG coverage

[pge]

Thanks.  We're now .029% of the way to our goal.

Ah, will the discount price be $29,- ?? You get $100.000,- (100%) with 3448 participants!

[JimH]

Ah, will the discount price be $29,- ?? You get $100.000,- (100%) with 3448 participants!

That would work. 

[Fangio]

I'd be interested, if it would be of use to me as a Freeview and Freesat user in the UK.

Now & Next is actually useful in Australia

It's very useful in the UK too. If the PVR software adds a bookmark to the recording at the point of the Now/Next banner change, playback of the recording can start at the bookmark, rather than the start of the file. It's a really handy feature that saves having to fast forward to the programme start.

[hoyt]

It will be an add-on package with a price of $39.98 and will be discounted during the campaign.  This will allow MC to replace Windows Media Center with an equivalent or better feature set.

That seems like a lot.  I'm iffy if I would want to do that because I only use OTA and have no need for added cable card support.  There are certainly improvements I'd like to see with the TV support in MC, but I don't like the idea of paying more for that each upgrade.  I'm unclear on the line between usability enhancements that need to be done and EPG data changes.

Perhaps if there was a listing of changes that were to be made to MC for improved TV experience, noting those that would require improved EPG data and those that wouldn't, this would be more clear to me.

Ryan

[hoyt]

That seems like a lot.

I was thinking more about this last night.  I guess if the target is to totally remove a DVR that people likely rent for $5-10 a month, then $40 a year isn't a lot.  I'm not sure what the breakdown is here for folks that rent a DVR from their cable company, vs those that bought one (TiVo), or use only OTA.  I'm in the boat of paying $0, so $40 is more than I want to deal with.

[davewave]

Hi everybody. I am a member of the JRiver team that is investigating various options for this proposed product.

We are still in touch with various EPG vendors and also looking into worldwide variants on DRM for "copy once".  We have a view into US requirements, but non US requirements appear to be complicated and in the process of changing.

For Europe, we are still investigating the general area of compliance with "DVB-CI".    It would be great to get some input on what options are available now for recording this material, so that we can perhaps get some hints of the direction that other vendors have taken.  If you have direct information on what is need to be properly DVB-CI complaint, please feel free to provide that information.

If we are unable to provide DVB-CI capabilities at first release but could provide EPG data in your area, would that be of interest to you?  Or do you personally need both in order to be interested in a TV Plus product?  

For Canada, can some Canadian experts fill us in on whether the DRM system is the same as for the U.S. or if not, what the system is?  We can take it from there.

Similarly, we would appreciate some input from our Australian customers on their DRM considerations.

Thank you for your input.

[greynolds]

If we are unable to provide DVB-CI capabilities at first release but could provide EPG data in your area, would that be of interest to you?  Or do you personally need both in order to be interested in a TV Plus product? 

Hi Dave,

I think there's still a big open question over what you guys intend to include with the base product and the TV Plus product, as there are (at least) 3 important things that need to be addressed to provide a more complete TV solution that can fully replace Windows Media Center:

1) Better EPG data.  The current free data is already pretty good for many of us in the USA, other than season and episode number data, so many of us may not see this as a critical need.

2) DRM support for Copy Once / CableCard in the USA and whatever the equivalent is in other countries.  For those of us with providers that only mark premium channels (such as HBO) as Copy Once (Verizon FIOS is a good example of this in the USA), this also may not be a critical need.  I personally don't subscribe to any channels that are marked Copy Once, so this definitely isn't a critical need for me.  But some other cable providers mark just about everything as Copy Once, so this is a critical feature for quite a few people.

3) JRiver recording engine enhancements that include things such as making better use of the guide data for setting up series recordings, modfying the system tray icon to indicate that a recording is in progress, etc.  Better use of the guide data would include things like the ability to record games from the current season for your favorite sports team.  These enhancements have been discussed a lot in other threads and my understanding is that Yaobing is currently working on some of these types of enhancements.

So the question is whether the TV Plus package is needed only for #1 and #2 or if it would also be needed to get #3 as well?  If the TV Plus package is only needed for #1 and #2 and #3 will be included in the main JRiver product, then I'd have to see what you guys come up with for #1 before I would commit to paying for it.  It sounds like you guys are still figuring out exactly what "TV Plus" means in regards to the feature set, so hopefully this feedback is useful.

[davewave]

Greynolds:

Thank you for your post.  I infer from your post that you are in the U.S.  In the U.S., it appears that many cable vendors mark programs are protected even when they should not be marked as such.  Fortunately, the DRM management scheme we are looking at should be helpful for recording and playing back those programs.  You would not be able to do any further editing on those recordings, but you can play them. 

With regard to better use of guide data, you would definitely need access to the improved EPG.  In fact, we understand that this is a key use case for the proposed project.  The basic EPG is just that, basic.  One should not anticipate any additional capabilities to be added to that basic function.  The data sources we are evaluating do include useful metadata that can be used for setting up recordings and searching for programs of interest. 

[jmone]

Similarly, we would appreciate some input from our Australian customers on their DRM considerations.

The dominant Pay TV Provider in Australia is "Foxtel" with both Cable and Sat boxes.  I believe the encryption is IRDETO / NDS and they Do Not (and have shown no interest) in proving CAMs.  The only way at present to get content off these boxes is to re-encode the output from HDMI (with a HDCP stipper and HDMI Capture device) or off on of the Analogue outputs.

Their has been a rise in IP TV Providers with their own STB as well but this is a different kettle of fish or do you plan to also looked at IP TV streams?

Edit - Their Latest "IQ3" std supports both IRDETO and NDS
http://www.fastcom-technology.com/en/foxtel-selects-fastcom-for-its-new-iq3-set-top-box

Edit 2 - Foxtel is part owned by News Corp

[greynolds]

Thank you for your post.  I infer from your post that you are in the U.S.  In the U.S., it appears that many cable vendors mark programs are protected even when they should not be marked as such.  Fortunately, the DRM management scheme we are looking at should be helpful for recording and playing back those programs.  You would not be able to do any further editing on those recordings, but you can play them.

Yes, I'm in the USA.  Cable vendors marking programs as Copy Once depends heavily on the provider.  Like I said, with Verizon FIOS (which I have) only premium channels like HBO typically get content marked as Copy Once and I don't subscribe to any of those channels.  Once in a while they'll mark something Copy Once by mistake that shouldn't be, but that doesn't happen very often.  Essentially, with JRiver MC as it is right now, I can record anything I want assuming the recording rules were beefed up to address some of the limitations that currently exist.  And even if the recording rules didn't get improved, I could manually schedule shows through the guide, but that's obviously less convenient.

Some of the other cable providers make much more frequent use of Copy Once and people who have those cable TV providers will definitely benefit from the DRM implementation.

So like I said in my previous post, the DRM support isn't really a big deal for ME at the moment, but it's still a welcome addition that I'm glad to see you guys looking into.  For one thing, Verizon could always start marking everything as Copy Once.

With regard to better use of guide data, you would definitely need access to the improved EPG.  In fact, we understand that this is a key use case for the proposed project.  The basic EPG is just that, basic.  One should not anticipate any additional capabilities to be added to that basic function.  The data sources we are evaluating do include useful metadata that can be used for setting up recordings and searching for programs of interest. 

I guess this is where I'm still a bit confused.  My understanding is that your current default EPG option is the same Rovi data that Windows Media Center uses.  The only major limitation there is that there isn't season and episode number info available.  Other than that, the data is good enough to do everything else related to scheduling recordings.  And like I said, Yaobing had mentioned that he's currently working on some improvements to the recording rules and the implication had been that those improvements would be in the base JRiver MC software in an upcoming release.

Perhaps when you get things a bit better defined it will become clear exactly what features will be added in the TV Plus option.  If the ONLY differences between the base JRiver MC product and TV Plus are DRM support and a better guide data source, but the recording engine itself is the same either way, it'll be interesting to see what the value add ends up being.  Improved EPG metadata would obviously make it possible to do some neat tricks with recording options - it's just not clear exactly what you guys plan to do and where the line gets drawn between the standard product and the TV Plus option.

For now Windows Media Center will continue to be my primary TV solution and JRiver gets used for audio, videos, and movies.  Hopefully once you guys are done with the TV Plus work I'll be able to retire WMC and use JRiver for everything.  I've been hoping to get to that point for quite some time now.

[RoderickGI]

If we are unable to provide DVB-CI capabilities at first release but could provide EPG data in your area, would that be of interest to you?  Or do you personally need both in order to be interested in a TV Plus product?

I have no need of the DVB-CI or any cable decryption capabilities. I cut the cord years ago. But I would buy the TV Plus package if it included really good and reliable EPG data for Australia.

Really good EPG data would have;

• Series and Episode names for all TV series, without broadcaster prefixes or suffixes added. For non-series programs, accurate titles.
• Series and Episode numbers for all episodes TV series.
• Repeat flags set for episodes and possibly movies.
• A proper description of the program, without broadcaster guff added. This wouldn't need to match TheTVDB exactly, since there are copyright issues, but it needs to be good.
• Correct Genre, Actor, Director, Year, and maybe Rating metadata. Note that the TV rating scheme in Australia is different, so it would be nice if the Australian scheme was used. Not critical though.
• A reasonable selection of other metadata, such as Keywords (including Series, News, Sport, Documentary, etc.), Producer, Screenwriter, and so on.
• Fourteen days of EPG data, rather than the usual seven, would be looked on very favourably.
• The ability to use broadcaster "Now & Next" or embedded CRID data to update the EPG and determine actual program start and end times, and hence reduce or eliminate padding on recordings, would be looked on extremely favourably.

Other TV functionality enhancements would make the use of EPG data and recording rules easier, such as he ability to link from a program to be recorded back to the recording rule that selected it, and hence to a list of all programs to be recorded using that rule. Also the ability to link from any recording rule directly to a list of programs to be recorded using that rule. I would find that useful to easily confirm what a rule is doing, and perhaps improve the rule. The search function while displaying "To Be Recorded" programs is the closest thing to this existing in MC at the moment, but it doesn't quite do the job.

The addition of "Discovery" functionality to use the EPG data to find programs of interest would be a bonus. If that Discovery functionality was linked back to a providers web services or site, such as Rovi or Gracenote, to provide addition information, artwork etc., that would be even better. I'm not into gossip about TV programs, but some people may be, and that is also what they want links to. Discovery functionality may include me defining what sort of programs I am interested in by Genre, Director, Actor, Language, etc., and then having a function in MC that shows me what may be of interest to my within the existing EPG time line, and then allowing me to select an item in the list to be recorded. While I could set up rules to record all programs that match the above criteria, Discovery is more about the assisted review of programs, rather than the separate automated recording requirement.

It would be good if I could browse the MC Guide, select a program, click a "more information" button, and be taken to or shown a page of additional data about the program, including viewer ratings, reviews, etc. I'm not suggesting duplicating IMDB or other sources, just linking to them, within MC. Great EPG Data is the key to discovery of worthwhile programs to watch.

Oh. Plus trailers. Links to trailers. Downloading and including trailers. Something like that.
Plus with the improved Genre and other data, colour coding of programs in the Guide. Maybe channel icons in the guide.

FYI, our only end user commercial provider of EPG data, IceTV, has survived its recent crisis and is back in business. For AU$7.99 per month it provides EPG, Discovery, comment, remote TV recording setting, iOS and Andriod Apps to set recording, view a TV Guide, excellent Series Recording, backup of all recording rules and program selections for recording on their server, and very good integration with WMC. See www.icetv.com.au. Even with the added features I think that is a little overpriced, but it sets a yardstick for comparisons in the Australian environment.

[obchristo]

So... you want more money to get JRiver to the point where it can replace a program that was free?

I have paid for upgrading since 18 in the hope that you would actually get to this point- but now you want more $$$ to get there?

Yeah....

[JimH]

I understand your concern.   We have made many TV improvements in recent versions.

However, adding support for the DRM used by cable companies will cost us a lot for both the work and for the license fees.  It is not trivial.

[pge]

Hi Yaobing,

How about the use of DVBLink software?

You looked into this earlier (See Topic: TV and DVBLink DVB-T source tuners possible? )

This might be a solution for many European users/ decrypted channels.


BTW, EPG is useless if we don't have any channels to watch/record. The EPG part of this project looks like a USA issue.

[greynolds]

BTW, EPG is useless if we don't have any channels to watch/record. The EPG part of this project looks like a USA issue.

EPG data definitely isn't a USA only issue.  If anything, it's more of an issue for other countries as the EPG data they have for the USA is already pretty decent - it would just benefit from some improvements (such as season and episode numbers).  There are a number of countries, I believe Australia is a good example, where JRiver either doesn't have EPG data at all or the data is really bad to the point of not being useful.

JRiver is clearly looking to address both the encryption / DRM issues as well as coming up with better EPG data.

[BartMan01]

Greynolds:

Thank you for your post.  I infer from your post that you are in the U.S.  In the U.S., it appears that many cable vendors mark programs are protected even when they should not be marked as such.  Fortunately, the DRM management scheme we are looking at should be helpful for recording and playing back those programs.  You would not be able to do any further editing on those recordings, but you can play them. 

What are the plans around distributed viewing of content?  Right now with WMC, I can view 'copy once' programming on any TV in the house via WMC extenders. If the recorded shows are locked to the computer that recorded them with no way to push the content to other TV's in the house then you are missing a critical feature of WMC and that would be a deal breaker for my usage needs (and I assume others).

A critical piece of this puzzle is some relatively inexpensive and easy to use way to push the recorded TV shows (both copy once and copy freely) around the house to some type of set top box or an app running on one or more of the popular set top boxes with and app ecosystem.

[gvanbrunt]

I'm in Canada, and unless things have changed in the last couple of years, there are no cable card solutions. It's strictly set top box only.

When the Colossus HD cards came out a few years ago I purchased one with the intent of using one. However it would freeze up when changing channels etc. I'm going to give it a shot again and let you know my setup experience. Last time it was difficult even for me as IT person with a lot of experience. I know that has improved, but unless it gets to the point a novice can do it, it won't be at the same place MS's software was. I'm guessing my feedback can give you the parameters for making it appealing to Canadian customers.

[JimH]

We're making a change to the offer.  It will be a U.S. package only (at least in the beginning) and it will not include a new EPG.  Its sole mission will be to record the copy-once programming used by cable companies.

Here's the new thread:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=101223.0

Thanks for all the feedback.  We realized that we needed to focus on the U.S. first because the rest of the world is just a little too complicated to tackle all at the same time.  I'm sorry for any disappointment we may have created.  Hopefully, we'll hit a home run with this campaign and we'll be able to do more in the future.

[JimH]

What are the plans around distributed viewing of content?  Right now with WMC, I can view 'copy once' programming on any TV in the house via WMC extenders.

Our goal is to match the feature set of WMC in this respect.  I can't guarantee that we will be able to do so (yet).