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[Magdanus]

 I just bought a Naim ND5 XS2 streamer which displays the type of file it plays. When I use MC24 (Windows) for searching a music file (a flac 16-bit file) on my Synology NAS and send it to play at the ND5, the ND5 displays it is playing a MP3 file. When I use the Naim app on my Ipad to choose the exact same file on the NAS, the display says it is playing a flac 16-bit file. For years I have used MC (Windows) for choosing music files on the Synology Nas using the "send to" function to send the files to a Linn streamer which unfortunately do not display details of the type of files it is playing, so now I wonder - have I been listening to MP3 files all these years because I have used MC choosing the files instead of Linns own app Kazoo? I have of course set MC to "no decoding" so it is a mystery where, why and how the flac files are changed to MP3 files. Can anybody help?

[swiv3d]

How have you set "no decoding on". If you are sending files from the NAS using  MC and haven't associated a MC server with your zone then it will send a default Generic server setting which probably is an mp3 output.

[Magdanus]

Thanks for your reply. This is how I have done it:

Tools>Options>Media Network>Client Options>Audio Conversion>Conversion: Don´t convert audio. Encoder: PCM 24-bit

[blgentry]

It's quite likely that you have been listening to MP3 audio from your streamer using JRiver this entire time.  Because the default DLNA profile that ships with MC converts everything to MP3.  JRiver should probably change this; though I think their intention is compatibility; since almost everything will play MP3.

To change this on your system, you should use the "audiophile 24 bit" DLNA profile.  It's already set up to not send MP3, so it's a good place to start.  Go to the Left Navigation area of MC and find the name of your DLNA device.  Now:

right click on it > associate with DLNA server > (choose the audiophile 24 bit one)

Stop the music if it's playing and restart it.  That should do it for you.

You can also make your own DLNA profiles or modify the existing ones.  You might want to do this for certain conversion options, or just to make the settings exactly like you want them.

Good luck.

Brian.

[Magdanus]

Thanks so much for your input. It is a disaster spending all that money for so many years on buying and downloading high res files on HDTracks and then JRiver (by default!) change them into MP3 without any warning or info !!!!

I follow your instructions but I do not get the option "Audiophile 24-bit" right clicking on the DLNA device. There is only a blurred line saying: Only one server, used by defaúlt. Can you figure that out? I am most grateful to you.

[Awesome Donkey]

Go to MC's Options > Media Network and click on Add or configure DLNA servers... From there, click the Add... button and Audiophile 24-bit DAC is one of the options. If desired you can remove any other DLNA servers so the Audiophile server is the only one available, then try what Brian said above.

[Magdanus]

I have done as you suggested: Options > Add or configure DLNA servers> "audiophile 24-bit DAC" - but there is still no audiophile 24-bit option when right clicking on the DLNA device (ND5) at the top left "Playing Now" menu list, only the same blurred line "only one server, used by default". 

I also now get the message "there was a problem controlling the selected DLNA device" which I have never seen before.

[~OHM~]

I gots to ask...is it turned on?

[Magdanus]

YES and no problem playing high res directly from the NAS using Ipad/Naim app. But as the Naim app is no substitute for all the nice features in MC, I would prefer to continue using MC if it just would leave me high res files untouched! Hope somebody know the "how to" trick

[RoderickGI]

Go to MC's Options > Media Network and click on Add or configure DLNA servers... From there, click the Add... button and Audiophile 24-bit DAC is one of the options.

[Spike1000]

It's quite likely that you have been listening to MP3 audio from your streamer using JRiver this entire time.  Because the default DLNA profile that ships with MC converts everything to MP3.  JRiver should probably change this; though I think their intention is compatibility; since almost everything will play MP3.

Yes, this really should be changed or made MUCH MUCH clearer as to what will happen if you use the current settings. How about an 'explain' or a 'confirm' button? EG "If you use these settings your media file(s) will be converted on the fly to a lossy MP3 file format for playing on the xyz device. Is this really what you want to do? Yes/No. If no, do xyz to correct the problem". There's an audio path button for the current player the 'remote player' needs something that's even more obvious.

I really suspect that there's a significant percentage of people playing MP3s to their very expensive DACs without realising .

Spike

[RoderickGI]

I really suspect that there's a significant percentage of people playing MP3s to their very expensive DACs without realising.

There are probably a significant number of people setting up comprehensive DSP for their music as well... and then sending that music via DLNA with no DSP in effect at all.

Maybe MC should default to playing audio in Original format by default, and then if that didn't work people may ask what the trouble is. The probability that they would read the Wiki, and investigate the DLNA options is quite low I suspect. A lot of people would just say MC doesn't work and move on without asking. So, lost sales for JRiver, which is also bad for all of us users.

There are so many ways to connect a PC running MC to an audio sync, such as a DAC, Sound Card, Receiver, TV, Pre-amp, DLNA Renderer, etc. that users just have to think about what they are doing, and not plug it in, turn it on, and expect everything to work exactly the way they want it to. It seems like JRiver, by defaulting DLNA to converting to mp3 format, at least make sure it works. But MC is a full-featured application, and it requires some knowledge to use it well.

Pardon me being blunt, but if I was spending nearly AU$5,000 on a single piece of audio equipment, I would want to make sure I knew I was using it the best way possible. Maybe an upgrade from the Linn Streamer wasn't actually required, if MC had been set up correctly?

[Spike1000]

There are so many ways to connect a PC running MC to an audio sync, such as a DAC, Sound Card, Receiver, TV, Pre-amp, DLNA Renderer, etc. that users just have to think about what they are doing, and not plug it in, turn it on, and expect everything to work exactly the way they want it to.

Good point about the DSP settings. As people are people they won't 'think about they are doing' and many will stop investigating once they've got sound coming out of their remote DAC\Client\Renderer etc etc; it's just human nature for many. Hopefully this will strike a chord (see what I did there?  ) with someone at JRiver and they'll look into proving a clear and simple explanation/warning for the 'audio path' for remote devices. MC is complex and the client server setup magnifies this complexity but it could do with clearer explanation of the consequences of a user's actions. I've fallen into this trap myself and it's a right faff to get a picture of what's going on (especially as one of my clients is headless).

Spike

[JimH]

Maybe MC should default to playing audio in Original format by default, and then if that didn't work people may ask what the trouble is.

I agree that it would be nice to try playing an unmodified file first, but there are some gotchas with that.

It would break compliance with the standard.
It needs a reliable renderer that accurately reports what it can play.

To do it right, I think we'd have to do something like this:

1.  Attempt to play the original format
2.  On failure, present the user with a dialog, saying "Hmm, that doesn't seem to work.  Would you like to let us try some other things and tell you what works?
3.  If yes, then something like AndrewFG's program steps in to query the renderer, report the results, and make any approved changes
4.  Resume our regular programming.

[Magdanus]

This is really a disaster for me, for JRiver and for the Hi-Fi retailing business. Here is the story:

Ten years ago, I invested approx. 100K Euro in a Linn Hi-Fi: Klimax 350A (speakers), Klimax DS (streamer) and Klimax Control (pre-amp) and I spend another 10K Euro buying high-res music at HDTracks and others. My total collection is now approx. 5.000 albums – most of them 24-bit, the rest 16-bit. At that time the setup was among the best money could buy for enjoying high res music. But in all these years I have never enjoyed any high-res music as JRiver has changed everything to MP3.

Did I just pay 100K EUR for the Hi-Fi, downloaded JRiver and then just plugged in hoping everything would be OK? No, I spent 100 of hours studying the manuals of JRiver, the JRiver forum and the Linn app to make sure everything was working perfect. By instinct I did not like the idea that the files went on a travel from the NAS to the computer (JRiver) and then to the Linn DS. I was worried that something may happen to the high.res files during the process, so I asked the JRiver support at that time what to do to be sure that the files were not manipulated along the trip. Here is what they said:

Tools > Options>Media Network>Audio Conversion>Don’t convert audio

Configuring JRiver in that way – they said - would guarantee that JRiver would NOT change the files passing through. The text is very clear: Don’t convert audio! Meaning (or should be meaning!): Don’t change anything, just let the files pass through as they were born.

Why did I use JRiver and not the Linn app as recommended by Linn? Well – when you pass one thousand albums there is no way you can control and organize your collection using a Linn app not either with their new app Kazoo. There is no alternative to JRiver in that respect!

Why did it take ten years to realise that something was wrong and that I in fact have been playing MP3 files all the time?
First – I was sure and assured that if I configured JRiver to not convert audio, then it would not convert audio!
Second – Linn Klimax DS does not display what kind of files it is playing and JRiver does not give that info either (as far as I know of). It was first the other day when I bought an extra streamer for my bedroom (ND5) that I could read in the Naim app display that it was playing MP3.

I thank all of you for your inputs, but I have a problem: I still do not know how to configure JRiver to send the files from the NAS to the ND5/Klimax DS untouched. There is no “Audiophile 24-bit” option when I right click on the ND5/Klimax DS on the top left “Playing now” list of DLNA devices as recommended by Brian, not either after I follow the instructions from Awesome Donkey.

I have properly changed too many parameters trying to fix things myself so now I can’t even play MP3 anymore! I get this message when trying to play back: There was a problem controlling the selected DLNA device (both ND5 and Klimax).

[JimH]

I thank all of you for your inputs, but I have a problem: I still do not know how to configure JRiver to send the files from the NAS to the ND5/Klimax DS untouched. There is no “Audiophile 24-bit” option when I right click on the ND5/Klimax DS on the top left “Playing now” list of DLNA devices as recommended by Brian, not either after I follow the instructions from Awesome Donkey.

This was answered above:

Go to MC's Options > Media Network and click on Add or configure DLNA servers... From there, click the Add... button and Audiophile 24-bit DAC is one of the options.

[blgentry]

I'm sorry my directions were not totally accurate.  As several people here have said, you have to ADD that profile to the list of DLNA servers, then it will become available.

I'm not sure why you are getting the error message about not being able to control the DLNA device.  I recommend stopping and restarting MC and perhaps power cycling your DLNA network devices (the streamers).

You mentioned the "do not convert audio" option:  I had to go look at this option to remember what it is.  It's all VERY confusing.  That option controls conversion between a JRiver MC client and MC server.  This is another place where MC converts to MP3 by default:  When sending between and MC library server and client.  I don't think this applies at all in your case, as you only have on JRiver PC (I think) and are not doing client/server (I think).

Sorry you got bad advice before.  I sure hope I wasn't the one that gave it.

Adding that DLNA server should give you what you want.  Let us know how it goes.

Brian.

[Awesome Donkey]

Just in case it's still not clear, here's a screenshot with a red arrow next to the desired Audiophile option.

[Magdanus]

I do exactly as you suggest but no audiophile 24-bit option as you see on the attached printscreen. And YES you are right, I do not have any MC server/client set up.

[blgentry]

Your screen shot shows that you have the "audiophile 24 bit" profile as the ONLY DLNA profile listed.  Further, it shows that the format is "original", which means that MC will NOT convert anything using that profile.  Finally, you show the "associate" message that says "only one server...".  That means there is only one profile and it is using that profile.

So, as far as I know, this means your DLNA device will get the original format with no conversions at all.  If this is how it has been all along, then you probably have always been listening to the high quality unconverted format.  If this is recent, it looks correct to me.  Well.. mostly correct.

If it was my system, I think I would set it to "specified output format" and PCM 24 bit.  That way I know it's always sending PCM and I don't rely upon the streamer to correctly read FLAC files, or anything else... MC always converts to PCM and the streamer should read that.

Please note that I'm not very skilled with DLNA, nor do I use it in my own system.  You might have to play around with the settings a little for your system and/or seek the advice of someone else.

Brian.

[Magdanus]

Thanks for your reply, Brian. Before your advice the DNLA profile was set to Generic DLNA which I now have removed and the format was set to specified output format. Unfortunately I do not remember what the specified format was - maybe MP3?

So as I now understand it there are two solutions:

1. You set the format to "Specified output format" and the mode to "PCM 24-bit" as you suggest. Then setting the DNLA format don't really matter. As you say it is always sending PCM. The only con of this option is that the controller will always display 24-bit even if the file is a 16-bit or MP3.

2. You set the mode to "Original" then the DNLA format also do not matter because it will always send the original format. The controller will display the kind of file the DNLA actually is playing which I think can be a usefull info. So I think I go for this option.

I hope you agree to my conclusion.

I have now succeeded to control the DNLA devices and I can confirm that MC do not change files into MP3 using either option 1 or 2.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR KIND ASSISTANCE :-)

   

[JimH]

It's DLNA, not DNLA.

[RoderickGI]

Just a couple of facts before I carry on.

You asked for help setting up your system less than five years ago, not ten. It was June 2014.
You were advised by Bob, one of the developers, and in that discussion you said:

Thanks Bob. This is great news. Just to be sure I understand the setting 100%. Is it: Tools, options, media network, configure DLNA servers, audio mode: ORIGINAL.

So you clearly understood what settings were required. As you have now clarified that you were using the "Generic DLNA" configuration until now, and you have deleted it, we will never know if you implemented that change. So we will never know if you have really been listening to mp3s for five years or not. There was no need to delete the Generic DLNA, particularly before you got everything sorted out. But what is done is done, unless you want to Restore a MC Library Backup and have a look at what you had in those settings. But if you are going to do that, do a manual Library Backup first, so that you can Restore to your current condition easily after having a look at what you had before.

In all likelihood, you have been listening to your high-res music in their original format, and not in mp3 format. But something changed along the way, so that you were sending mp3s to the ND5 when you set it up.


By the way, when you play "direct" from you Synology NAS to you ND5 (or previously to your Linn) streamer, as described here:

I just bought a Naim ND5 XS2 streamer which displays the type of file it plays. <snip> When I use the Naim app on my Ipad to choose the exact same file on the NAS, the display says it is playing a flac 16-bit file.

There is no doubt that what you were actually using as the transport mechanism was DLNA, which means that the Naim App was acting as a DLNA Controller, the Naim ND5 XS2 was acting as a DLNA Renderer, and therefore your Synology NAS must be running a DLNA Server. In which case, the DLNA server could have been doing anything to your high-res music before it sent the audio to the ND5 (or the Linn previously), and you would have had no idea. You should really shut down the DLNA Server on the Synology to avoid confusion, and just use MC as the only DLNA Server on your network.

Now just a little correction:

1. You set the format Mode to "Specified output format" and the mode Format to "PCM 24-bit" as you suggest. Then setting the DNLA format don't really matter. This will As you say it is always sending PCM. The only con of this option is that the controller Renderer will always display 24-bit even if the file is a 16-bit or MP3.

As to the issue of playback not working at all now:

I have properly changed too many parameters trying to fix things myself so now I can’t even play MP3 anymore! I get this message when trying to play back: There was a problem controlling the selected DLNA device (both ND5 and Klimax).

I think Brian's suggestion is a good one; Reboot all the equipment. DLNA devices can get stuck, stop communicating, and generally forget their status at times. You have been changing a lot, so a reboot all around is a good idea.

If that does not solve the playback problems, my first thought would be that the Renderer can't play the format you are sending it. But the ND5 seems to be pretty capable. So test again and report back on that issue.
EDIT: It sounds like the restart/reboot has fixed that issue.


PS: Thanks for sharing the screenprints. That helped us all understand what you had done, and what you hadn't, a lot.

[rossp]

Seems to me this just proves how subjective audio quality is. With all that expensive equipment, you can't tell if it was originally mp3 or not. Surely your current setup sounds better?

Ross

[Magdanus]

Roderick, you are right, I forgot about the advice from Bob 5 years ago. I have most certainly have been listening to flac after setting the audio mode to Original. But then something happened that changed that. I have not changed anything myself since Bob's advice so now I am wondering what happens when you update? Does MC keep the settings after updating or am I supposed to go through all the settings myself after every update? If so then that is the reason why my files suddenly changed to MP3 as that is the defalut setting of MC.
I think it is a very bad idea that the default setting is changing peoples original files into MP3. "Original" seems to me to be the only reasonable and logic default setting.
When setting the audio mode to Original it seems that is does not matter if you use generic DLNA or audiophile 24-bit.

[RoderickGI]

Well, it's good to know you haven't been listening to mp3's all this time, isn't it? 

During an upgrade, MC will usually find the default Library from an earlier version and transfer both the Library and Settings across to the new version. But it doesn't always do that for everyone, and not every time. It depends on a few things like the number of libraries in use, etc. For me, I usually have to manually ensure the Library and Settings are transferred on my MC Client and testbed, but on my HTPC it usually transfers automatically. But I have custom Views and so on, so I noticed straight away if the Library hasn't transferred, and I check every time. So should everyone.

If you aren't sure in the future, the best thing to do is make a manual Library Backup of the old version, install the upgrade, and then Restore the manual backup you just made including the Library and Settings to the new version. Then everything will be in your new version.

When setting the audio mode to Original it seems that is does not matter if you use generic DLNA or audiophile 24-bit.

That is correct. The "Generic DLNA" and "Audiophile 24-bit DAC" DLNA servers are just examples, and you can treat them as templates. That is, load them up and edit them as required. You will notice that there are many other settings under each example, particularly in the "Advanced" section below Audio, Images, and Video. You can make changes to those settings to suit your target DLNA device.

You can also rename the DLNA Server to something that makes more sense to you, by editing the "Display name" field, then clicking OK on the "DLNA Servers" dialogue. When you re-open that dialogue and in other parts of MC you will see the new name. Perhaps you could name yours "Naim ND5 XS2 DLNA Server" or something similar.

You can have more than one DLNA Server at the same time in MC, and if you hadn't deleted the "Generic DLNA" server when you added the "Audiophile 24-bit DAC", then both would be running and the steps discussed above about right-clicking on a Zone to associated a DLNA Server with it would have worked. You would have been shown all your DLNA servers and had the option to select one. But you don't need to worry about that now that you have fixed the issue, and only have one DLNA server, which is the default and automatically assigned to all Dynamic (DLNA) Zones.


Jim, maybe rather than changing the default audio sent by the "Generic DLNA" Server, or adding the sophisticated functionality you mentioned above, just renamed the "Generic DLNA" to "Generic DLNA sending mp3". At least that would make it obvious, and users could change and rename the server as required. It may prompt them to ask questions and get help. You could also add a "Generic DLNA sending Original" to keep people happy. Just a thought.

[slerch666]

I don't really have anything to add to the conversation about what was being listened to for 5 or 10 years, but what I can say is that unless  ALL of your music is the same format and same bit rate, I have had several DLNA devices that would turn to crap and just stop responding if I was mixing formats.

I "convert" all of my audio to PCM 24 bit. When listening to FLAC with a hand full of files mixed in that were MP3, WAV, and WMA (yes, I still have some, slowly converting all to FLAC... shoot me ).

[JimH]

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