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Author Topic: New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211  (Read 13922 times)

JimH

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New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211
« on: March 11, 2005, 11:30:25 am »

Beginning with build 211, we're distributing the new Windows Media 10 package, which is required for playing newer WM files.  This IS NOT Windows Media Player 10.  It's just the codecs for the next version of Windows Media.  They are backwards compatible.

As with any Microsoft change, this may create new problems we're not yet aware of, but we expect to be able to solve them as they come up.  Your patience will be appreciated.

Yaobing (of JRiver) has done a nice job of modifying our installer to handle all the cases and to arrive at as easy an experience as possible for end users.

Yaobing's notes follow here:

-------------------------------
The new MC installer (introduced in build 211) checks whether WM is already installed on the computer and whether it is WM10 or WM9 or even earlier.

It also checks the OS. 

If the OS is XP, the installer tries to install WM10 (WMF9.5 redistribution) if it is not already installed.

If the OS is not XP (Win98SE - W2k) the installer tries to install WM9 (WMF9 redistribution) if it is not already installed.

Currently checking of WM version already installed involves using WM API to enumerate latest supported audio codec. There are distinct versions of the codec for WM9 and WM10. If need arises we may supplement this method with additional methods in the future.

The Media Center package (installer) may or may not already have either or both versions of the WMF redistrution file included. The installer checks the unpacked folder for the appropriate version of WM. If the installer cannot find the required file, it goes to JRiver's server to download the file.

During downloading, the user can cancel (when having network trouble for instance) by clicking Cancel button on InstallWizard. This will cancel the entire MC installation.  After downloading is complete, the installer runs the WMF setup file in silent mode and waits for its completion. The user can no longer cancel from this point on.  However, there is a 30 minute time-out in the MC installer for the installation of WMF, for the unlikely event of the Microsoft setup program hanging.

After the WM setup program finishes, the MC installer checks the WM installation status, and quits if it has failed.  It also make notes whether rebooting is required. 
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RhinoBanga

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Re: New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2005, 11:36:39 am »

Doesn't this make it required that your installation machine have access to the internet?

*UPDATE* ... yes it does:

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JimH

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Re: New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2005, 11:39:53 am »

Yes, but we can also make a build that includes WM.

If you need to download and install manually because you have no Internet connection, here they are:

Windows Media 9.0 for Win98SE, ME, and 2000
ftp://ftp.jriver.com/pub/downloads/music/tmp/wmfdist90.exe

Windows Media 9.5 for XP
ftp://ftp.jriver.com/pub/downloads/music/tmp/wmfdist95.exe
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RhinoBanga

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Re: New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2005, 11:41:36 am »

Cool, as I just tried it on another machine it gave up after 10 minutes waiting for WM to download.

*UPDATE*   Tried it on another machine and it took 7 minutes.   I am on a 2mbit DSL line.

Is the file coming from your servers or MS's?
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Alex B

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Re: New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2005, 12:03:40 pm »

I suppose installation works fine without Internet connection if Windows Media is already up-to-date.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/download/default.asp
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UnknownID

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Re: New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2005, 12:09:52 pm »

What if the user doesn't want to upgrade to WM10? My humble opinion is that this should be an optional update that the user can choose to do during setup.

UnknownID

(I have learned from Microsoft that one should be wary of forced upgrades)
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JimH

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Re: New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2005, 12:14:48 pm »

I'm sorry, but if you want to use MC, you're going to have to move forward.  I understand your skepticism, but we have no choice other than to support the latest WM.
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UnknownID

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Re: New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2005, 12:17:37 pm »

Well... I trust JRiver a lot more then I trust MS, so if you guys think this is a good idea that I'm for it ;D

UnknownID


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JimH

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Re: New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2005, 12:43:06 pm »

Thank you.
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Mike Noe

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Re: New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2005, 02:11:46 pm »

Same here with 212, same as Marko above
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GHammer

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Re: New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2005, 04:31:51 pm »

The file I get from J River is 5.3 Mb
The WM codecs package for XP from MS is 1.35 Mb

Maybe the wrong version is being sent?
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JimH

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Re: New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2005, 10:12:47 am »

Mastiff said:
Quote
Both the player and the codec will have to stay out of my computer. There are many posts now in HTPC forums about problems with different kinds of media files because of WMP 10.
Please note that WMP 10 is not required and not part of the MC install.  It's WM10, not WMP10 that is needed.  MS calls it WM 9.0 or 9.5 for some OS's.
Quote
Does that mean that I can't get a newer version than the one I have, even though I have WMP 9 codecs? And what's the reason behind that, when I don't even want to use WMV or WMA files?
Until we put out the JRiver MEDIA CENTER Mastiff Special Edition, you'll need to either stay with an old version or hold your nose and go with MC's new install.

We need it to be able to play MS DRM files reasonably (the previous version is much slower) and to upload the DRM files to handhelds.  Think Napster to Go or "Tethered Downloads".  We also have to keep up to date with the MS world.  Like it or not, we have to go forward.
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Mastiff

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Re: New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2005, 02:48:10 pm »

If I didn't know better I'd say you were sarcastic! I thought Linus from Peanuts had that market cornered in the US!  ;D

Anyway, I'll probably hold my nose and upgrade sooner or later, but right now everything's running 100 % (as you know 99 % is failure in my house), so I will wait until the definitive version is out. But is it such a problem to have that optional, with a message stating that it will create problems for DRM/WMA/WMV files?
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hit_ny

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Re: New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2005, 02:58:32 pm »

But is it such a problem to have that optional, with a message stating that it will create problems for DRM/WMA/WMV files?

Exactly, what about people that don't have or want WMA/WMV ? I agree it should be optional.
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Alex B

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Re: New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2005, 04:08:16 pm »

Yes, it could be optional. Usually it's better to make fewer changes if there is no need for them.

However, I don't understand how the installed WMF version could affect other programs, especially if the user doesn't use Windows Media files.

As far as I understand the codecs lie calmly on the HD until a program calls them by starting Windows Media playback. The OS just registers their existence.

I wouldn't worry about installing the WMF95 codecs. WMP10 might be a different beast if there are reported problems.

Though, I installed WMP10 on my two totally different XP SP1 computers last September. I have encountered no problems so far.
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Mastiff

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Re: New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2005, 04:13:48 am »

OK, then I'll make a leap of faith: I'll install it on the Carputer (the MediaSUV - my trusty 95 Chevy Suburban), and then we'll see what happens! Crossing fingers here, since I'm taking a two hour drive today...  ;)
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kwake

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Re: New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2005, 05:32:06 am »

Hello, just a note to show people what dialog is being shown when upgrading MC 11 - which I think is the reason for confusion making people think they are upgrading to MS Media Player 10, and not just the MP10 codecs only:

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/kwakewebfrance/Pictures/2005/MC11_MP10_Install.jpg

As you can see, the installer is warning the user that they are about to install Windows Media Player 10 - and does not correctly state they are only installing the codecs. It even goes so far as explaining that you need system restore active to be able to back out later.

I don't think this dialog was written by someone at JRiver, but maybe someone from JRiver could request that MS have it re-written to avoid any further confusion for the MC11 end users?

Regards,
Kwake
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jens

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Re: New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2005, 12:12:19 pm »

There is a confirmed problem with the WMA 9.1 Standard codec: VBR encoding results in bigger file sizes (and higher bitrates) as compared to the WMA 9 codec, with the same quality settings.

For example, files encoded with WMA9 and a VBR90 quality setting (Normal/High in MC) average at 199kbps and 5.3MB per file, which happens to be my preferred quality vs. file size compromise. With the same quality setting, files encoded with WMA9.1 average at 298kbps and 8.8 MB - a 50% increase.

Going down to VBR75 in WMA9.1 (Normal in MC) results in average bitrates (and file sizes) that are lower than WMA9/VBR90 (too low for me).

This bug is described in http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t27037.html and http://www.tech-archive.net/Archive/Media/microsoft.public.windowsmedia.encoder/2004-09/0061.html.

The latter post also describes a workaround that may be of interest to MC 11 users that are a) concerned about the above, and b) haven't upgraded to Windows Media Player 10 yet (which would have already installed the WMA9.1 codecs.)

So if you are using Windows Media Player 9 (which had WMA9), you may want to do the following before/after upgrading to MC11:

1. BEFORE RUNNING MC11 UPGRADE

a) Check version of the WMA encoder installed on your system by locating file c:\windows\system32\wmadmoe.dll. Look at the Version tab of the Properties dialog box. If the version starts with "9" (typically 9.0.0.3250), then you have the WMA9 codec, and if the version starts with "10" (10.0.0.3646), then you already have WMA9.1. In the latter case, stop here, since it's too late:)

b) Otherwise, create a local folder, e.g. c:\WMA9DMO

c) Copy c:\windows\system32\wmadmoe.dll c:\WMA9DMO

2. RUN MC11 UPGRADE

3. AFTER MC11 UPGRADE

a) Make sure no media application (MC, WMP, WME, etc.) is running

b) In a command window, register the old encoder through: regsvr32 c:\WMA9DMO\wmadmoe.dll

c) Launch MC11 and do your ripping. This should use the old WMA9 codec.

NOTE that the above only changes which *encoder* is used; it doesn't change the *decoder* (wmadmod.dll) which after the MC11 upgrade will be the WMA9.1 version (which is backwards compatible.)
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jens

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Re: New Windows Media package beginning with MC11.0.211
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2005, 12:48:53 pm »

I just verified the steps listed in my previous post using MC 11.0.247, and it worked great.

One more note: you can always revert to using WMA9.1 by running
     regsvr32 c:\windows\system32\wmadmoe.dll
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