Topic: Where to Next? (Read 18842 times)

JimH · « **on:** October 19, 2017, 07:57:49 am »

Yesterday I asked someone at JRiver to think about where we're going next. What are the big things we need to think about?

I'm opening this up to your suggestions and advice. Not features, but directions. Big directions.

Our mission for many years has been simple: Any media, anytime, anywhere. Deliver highest quality whenever possible.

To do this, we've had to broaden our platform support from Windows to OSX, Linux, Android, and iOS. It's been challenging. These platforms don't stand still, and sometimes they are even a little wobbly.

To support these platforms, we've had to build our own tools. This happened behind the scenes, but it's taken a lot of time. Thanks to this work, we've now got one set of source that compiles on Windows, OSX, and Linux.

We've used the Linux source to build a hardware component, the JRiver Id. The Id has taken on a life of its own as it's become more capable and stable.

The point of this has been to build reliable components that work across networks and across the Internet. I think we're there. It's not perfect, but we have our own stable eco-system that we can build on.

So, the question is this:

Where do we go next? What are the big things we need to do?

Thanks,

Jim

mattlovell · « **Reply #1 on:** October 19, 2017, 09:38:05 am »

Hi,

I do think what JRiver has achieved with media playback across a wide set of OSes/platforms is great. I also like the flexibility and customization possible within your database.

I still think more could be done with the information available in the database, a la Roon. To me, JRemote is still your best remote interface, but it seems like it has been static for quite a while now. For the popular (modern) portion of my music collection, I do find myself itching for some of Roon's "exploration" features. (For the directory- and file-based classical portion, forget it! JRiver's the only solution thus far.)

Being able to generate handsome reports from the database would also be interesting. (I know, the information's all there, so I could put together charts from a spreadsheet myself. Automatic generation is always slick, though.)

Perhaps that suggestion is too feature-like.

I also have a small thought on the hardware front. Again, perhaps this itch is just too small of a market to pursue ... I'd love to see JRiver running in a small (and quiet) HTPC case that sports an internal display and (perhaps) a BD drive. It would be neat to see artwork, title, etc for the currently-playing media, without turning on the "big TV" and without having to track down where the tablet went (a first world problem, true). There are also times I'd love to see some "bouncing lights" of a spectrum display or some other music visualization. Being able to turn the display off (automatically) for movie playback would be nice, too.

I have a Raspberry Pi-like audio setup (well, a small CuBox), using JRiver on a PC as the server. The audio quality and file format flexibility is great, but I want more of a "stereo component" look to the widget. The standard Intel NUC case doesn't satisfy. I know there are various displays available for the Raspberry Pi, but there seem few enclosures that have the proper finished look to them, and I'm not crafty enough to build my own.

With a BD drive, such a small HTPC seems like it could compete in many ways with a component from Oppo -- a "do it all" player but with a better interface. Alternatively, perhaps some component vendor would be interested in incorporating JRiver as their interface and playback engine. Your theater view seems like a nicer interface than what I've seen any component vendor pull off!

I'll try to think bigger thoughts and see if any other suggestions come to mind.

Thanks,
Matt

jachin99 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 19, 2017, 10:33:11 am »

Make JRiver a platform that can play ANY (encrypted or not) media source. This might seem like something you have already achieved but through no fault of your own the software doesn't do well with streaming, and it flatout can't play DRM'd cable or blurays. for streaming services maybe you could improve your built in browser's capabilities. I know you already have chromium installed, and I've seen frameworks out there like the Chrome embeded framework that can make local apps from web content. I would say improving your web content experience as a whole would be a good direction even if its not tailored specifically to one site (I.E. spotify, netflix). Maybe even a podcast viewer just to start things off and see how much interest there is. This was done with WMC YEARS ago, and its done quite often with kodi as well.

tij · « **Reply #3 on:** October 19, 2017, 12:01:55 pm »

I know this sounds like boot licking ... but other solutions I tried before always left me with feeling that this is not enough for all my need. Not so with JRiver ... think I finally found home for all my media

Quote from: JimH on October 19, 2017, 07:57:49 am

Our mission for many years has been simple: Any media, anytime, anywhere.

I think it would be great to add "ONE SOLUTION for any media, anytime, anywhere"

Then can ditch iTunes (and similar thing for androids) for mobile syncing and sync audio AND video directly from JRemote to JRemote ... over wifi

Why? ... I don't have to get off my couch to sync stuff for loooong flights with super expensive internet

PS. personally I don't think developers should waist effort to be able to do what AnyDVD does ... don't want you disappearing under lawsuits

B4Unyu · « **Reply #4 on:** October 19, 2017, 12:05:44 pm »

give Digital Signage a good look into. a world with many opportunities for where this company is now. perfect environment for growth. be creative. think better.

...good luck, jim.

MusicHawk · « **Reply #5 on:** October 19, 2017, 12:38:19 pm »

It might seem like a feature, but a business opportunity seems to exist with managing, sharing and showing photos. The ratio of personal photos to personal music media has been said to be 1,000 or 1,000,000 to 1, with personal video being .001 to 1. None of them are unimportant, but everyone has a camera in their hand much of every day, taking pictures. Plus their existing collection of digital and scanned images (Costco has a huge business doing the scanning). But who is helping users work with this ever-growing collection of highly-valued images...other than the closed-garden folks who lock up personal photos and totally control what can be done? The market is potentially larger by several powers of ten.

The competition is the image editors that have some sort of organizer but they are all very weak. And/or the cloud providers who offer to store photos but lock them up and provide just simplistic tools. And/or Explorer + viewer or similar that do almost nothing compared to a databased-system.

Consider strengthening media "the other direction" -- storing/getting/playing in "the cloud", especially the commercial services, many free or "cheap". Because it's become a sharing world (at least with family), but quite clumsy in reality.

In the photos world, for instance (suggested before) Yahoo's Flickr provides 1TB of free photo storage, how about MC providing an integrated way to interact with that? Same with the others. Maybe those sites/services make it difficult for a third-party to integrate or even connect, but that didn't stop you with Apple.<g>

MC does a nice job of allowing tagging of media files, but often those tags do not transfer or are not supported by other viewers/players, which is kind of annoying. For instance, I put terrific Captions on all my photos but my family can't see them in any of the online free sites, which all have their own ways or simply ignore embedded tags.

Same with face recognition, various services do it but then it is invisible elsewhere.

Many opportunities in photos/imaging if JR is running out of cool things to do with audio and video.

Re Television, I'm sure you know that in many areas (notably the mountainous western states) over-the-air/tuner TV is poor or simply not there. Wonderful in flatland, but here in California the majority of the population lives among what we call "hills" but elsewhere would be mountains. Therefore almost everyone relies on cable or satellite TV, but their output is locked up via their proprietary tuners, even CableCard doesn't meet the need.

The "future" TV via streaming is already a mess of fighting monkeys. Helping pull this together could be an opportunity. (But note that already the need to deal with so many streaming services and sometimes devices has punctured the "wonderful" balloon, and it quickly can cost more than cable/satellite. So, the near-future probably won't be like the present.)

Some thoughts...

DocLotus · « **Reply #6 on:** October 19, 2017, 12:48:27 pm »

An MC app for Android devices would make me VERY happy indeed.

jachin99 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 19, 2017, 01:46:41 pm »

building on some of what has already been brought up in this thread, and others, maybe moving into android/google could be a good idea. If you want an example of why then just compare how heavily MS is investing in your living room with how heavily google is trying to take the same space. Maybe try an android TV client.

rec head · « **Reply #8 on:** October 19, 2017, 02:16:07 pm »

I agree with the people that mention streaming. It is no longer the future. The only problem is that I usually get much worse streams on my HTPC than I do on any streaming device in my house. I don't think any media company actually wants their content streamed to a PC so it doesn't get copied. I know services like Roku and Apple TV are trying to have one interface for everything. I haven't tried the ATV but on the Roku it is pretty mediocre. I'd love to have one list of new episodes and just hit watch without knowing or caring what service it is coming from.

Listener · « **Reply #9 on:** October 19, 2017, 03:25:40 pm »

Quote from: MusicHawk on October 19, 2017, 12:38:19 pm

It might seem like a feature, but a business opportunity seems to exist with managing, sharing and showing photos. The ratio of personal photos to personal music media has been said to be 1,000 or 1,000,000 to 1, with personal video being .001 to 1. None of them are unimportant, but everyone has a camera in their hand much of every day, taking pictures. Plus their existing collection of digital and scanned images (Costco has a huge business doing the scanning). But who is helping users work with this ever-growing collection of highly-valued images...other than the closed-garden folks who lock up personal photos and totally control what can be done? The market is potentially larger by several powers of ten.

The competition is the image editors that have some sort of organizer but they are all very weak. And/or the cloud providers who offer to store photos but lock them up and provide just simplistic tools. And/or Explorer + viewer or similar that do almost nothing compared to a databased-system.

Consider strengthening media "the other direction" -- storing/getting/playing in "the cloud", especially the commercial services, many free or "cheap". Because it's become a sharing world (at least with family), but quite clumsy in reality.

In the photos world, for instance (suggested before) Yahoo's Flickr provides 1TB of free photo storage, how about MC providing an integrated way to interact with that? Same with the others. Maybe those sites/services make it difficult for a third-party to integrate or even connect, but that didn't stop you with Apple.<g>

MC does a nice job of allowing tagging of media files, but often those tags do not transfer or are not supported by other viewers/players, which is kind of annoying. For instance, I put terrific Captions on all my photos but my family can't see them in any of the online free sites, which all have their own ways or simply ignore embedded tags.

Same with face recognition, various services do it but then it is invisible elsewhere.

Many opportunities in photos/imaging if JR is running out of cool things to do with audio and video.

Re Television, I'm sure you know that in many areas (notably the mountainous western states) over-the-air/tuner TV is poor or simply not there. Wonderful in flatland, but here in California the majority of the population lives among what we call "hills" but elsewhere would be mountains. Therefore almost everyone relies on cable or satellite TV, but their output is locked up via their proprietary tuners, even CableCard doesn't meet the need.

The "future" TV via streaming is already a mess of fighting monkeys. Helping pull this together could be an opportunity. (But note that already the need to deal with so many streaming services and sometimes devices has punctured the "wonderful" balloon, and it quickly can cost more than cable/satellite. So, the near-future probably won't be like the present.)

I agree with MusicHawk that there is an opportunity to provide image management features. I have been using JRiver to ID and tag images from outings that my wife and I take. Mostly wildflower and insect photos where assigning common names and scientific names is a major part of the workflow.

I looked at many alternatives before settling on JRiver for the image management and ACDSeePro 9 to do the actual image editing. Nothing else came close to the power and fluidity of the pane/thumbnails/tag window interface. Here's a screenshot from several minths ago when I was processing photos from a May wildflower trip.

Adobe has announced that Lightroom 7 will only be available on a subscription basis. This is already causing some Lightroom users to look for alternatives.

Here is my shopping list for JRiver image management improvements:

- Better support for reading/writing standard image metadata fields.

- Facilities for writing JRiver tags to standard metadata fields

- Facilities for writing JRiver tags to XMP metadata fields supported by other programs like Adobe Lightroom/Photoshop and ACDSee Pro. This should be template based do that support for another application's format can be added easily.

- Image editing which produces a Jpeg file with tags from the original file. Currently, when I save (as) an edited file, it doesn't contain the tags that I painstakingly entered.

- A bit more robustness in sending an image file to an external image editor. If I just do my edits in that external program, save the resulting file and close that application, JRiver seems to be more or less stable. If I edit a file, save it and then move to a different image file and edit it, JRiver sometimes gets confused and crashes.

- I agree with Musichawk that a template driver facility for posting images to various online hosting site like Facebook, Flickr and SmugMug would be a winner.

- Separate JRiver as image editor from JRiver as audio and video program. I have a very stable library with my audio files. I do not want to mix transient image files into that library. So I have one image library for photos from a project I'm processing and another for long term storage of files that I've finished editing. I want to be able to work on images in one library while I'm listening to music from another library. In addition, when I start JRiver to edit images, I want it to come up with the image library and view that I was last using. When I start JRiver for playing audio, I want it to come up with that library and the audio view I was last using. At present, I have allow multiple instances checked and use MC 21 for audio and MC22 for images. That is a terrible kludge but I don't know a better way.

I have relied on JRiver to process thousands of photos on multiple trips. The first four folders in this SmugMug folder show the photos from some 2017 trips.

https://naturelover.smugmug.com/Travel

jmone · « **Reply #10 on:** October 19, 2017, 04:37:48 pm »

This pic is 8 years old when JimH first broached the Anything, Anywhere, Anytime and I like to refer to it when this topic comes up periodically to see what has changed. These comments and ranking are just based on my own usage and observation on what has changed over the years.

Content 10/10: MC supports PLAYING all the file formats I need and soon will even officially support un-encrypted UHD BD. I simply don't know of a mainstream format that MC does not play and if something comes up it seems to be added to the supported list pretty quickly.

Delivery & Consumption Sources 7/10: This is an area I think the Industry (and hence MC) has actually gone backwards, but some of these appear to be outside JR's ability to influence:
- Online Content: I'd love for MC to be an aggregator of all media sources, but instead we see the opposite. Netflix and other removed their public API, and the newer ones don't seem to be interested or go broke. This prevents MC being able to be used as a front end for all content. As my kids have grown up I've also seen the consumption shift from using the media and devices in the home to using their mobile to access their media from the web limiting their use of MC to just what I have on the server. One area that would be easier to update would be the ability to find, manage, and play non encrypted streams such as Radio Stations (it can be done but it is very clunky).
- Encrypted Content: Another one where the industry seems to be about face. I have 600+ Movie Discs and they keep trying to make it harder to store, manage, and play this from MC. Their attempts don't stop piracy, just convenience. Anyway, I like MC's stance on this. Full support to un-encrypted content (BD / UHD BD etc) and leaving the decryption to the user.
- Portable Devices: Apple locked the ability for 3rd party players to sync to their devices

This may not be that much of an issue however and users seem to have moved from wanting to plug their devices into a MC PC but instead would prefer to Sync OTA. I'm guessing this needs something like a Full Player on iOS and Android more than a remote app to overcome this.
- OTA/Tuners: Nice improvements in this area.
- Streamer Devices: The industry now has an (over) abundance of streaming protocols for sending content to devices (Speakers, TV, Consoles etc) such as DLNA, Airplay, SONOS, Cast, etc etc (depending on what devices you have purchased). MC really only supports DLNA but these days many homes now have a mix of these and are trying to bring a Whole House approach to rendering the media (aka SONOS). As part of Jim's goal is to play to ANY device this would be an area worth serious consideration. All I want is the ability for MC to "see" these devices, select which ones to "link" and then "play" content in sync to these.

Converter 8/10: MC does a pretty good job doing Format/Time/Place/Device Shifting for various content to various devices but only with preset profiles. At some point, it would be good to have MC expand these profiles or allow users to specify these as they have not changed for years. For example there is no 265, 4K, or even a Remux profile. There are also some inconsistencies here however: (a) web streams like radio is not put through the converter causing issues with consumption device compatibility, and (b) JTV can not be remuxed.

Summary: MC has done a good job in a dynamically changing environment. "Big Direction" I'd consider worthy of consideration (even if they can not be done) would be:
- Aggregation of On Line media sources
- Evolution of the Remotes into Players
- Expansion of support for consumption devices
- Updating the Converter at the core of MC

RD James · « **Reply #11 on:** October 19, 2017, 06:13:57 pm »

Not sure that I agree with the photo management/editing stuff. There are already a million programs for this, and more fully-featured; e.g. Adobe's Lightroom.
Not only that, but no-one I know transfers photos to their PC any more.
Anyone still using a dedicated camera is transferring them to their mobile devices and editing there, but most have stopped carrying a dedicated camera around with them any more.
Everything is stored and edited on their phone/tablet or the cloud and posted to online services. (facebook, instagram etc.)

I don't agree with streaming not being the future of media consumption - the big media corps are pushing for it over ownership, but I don't think it's something that JRiver should be chasing after.

I don't know that there's much in the way of exciting new features I can think of, but things like improved memory playback, video transcoding (take advantage of hardware encoders), and generally better support for networked media playback (audio sync, separate users & permissions) would be areas that I'd like to see improved.
A focus on better user experience would be good too. Move towards getting things out of the main UI thread so that nothing ever blocks you from interacting with Media Center. Improved search, improved split-view management etc.
Revamp zones and DSP so that a zone is a location rather than a set of DSP presets that splits up playlists. Implement rule-based DSP switching and presets. Combine bitstreaming and DSD options into output format. Allow DSP to be performed prior to downmixing.

OverTheAir · « **Reply #12 on:** October 19, 2017, 06:28:11 pm »

Quote from: JimH on October 19, 2017, 07:57:49 am

Our mission for many years has been simple: Any media, anytime, anywhere. Deliver highest quality whenever possible.

My feedback is based not only on the mission statement but also the skills/capabilities and presumably the interests of the current team at JRiver which I perceive as primarily software over hardware.

The PC as an AVR - By AVR what I really mean is pre-pro lite, i.e. no DACs and no amps, just the processing core

The capability exists now with MC but in my view its not user friendly/accessible to many, specifically with regard to parametric EQ and convolution (notwithstanding helpful how to's in the forum), so add graphical capabilities similar to what miniDSP does in its products. Make this high value add feature of MC much more approachable.
The real stretch goal ... support 3D sound, i.e. Atmos, DTS-X. Trinnov seem to have implemented a PC based solution based on Linux so its at least possible https://www.avforums.com/article/trinnov-demo-altitude32-dolby-atmos-and-auro3d-processor.10788 Note, before someone points out Trinnov price points, I am making no assumptions here about what licensing costs might be, because if we make negative assumptions at the start of every project nothing ever gets done Especially because NAD is introducing an AVR with Atmos and Dirac for $1300 which tells me licensing cost, even for relatively low volume manufacturers cannot be crazy. Also because this capability doesn't have to be part of the main MC software but instead could be an upgrade package. Other vendors in the audio business sell software in the multiple $100's, e.g. Acourate, Audiolense, Dirac so its certainly worth consideration for JRiver.
If there is a desire to do hardware then produce an affordable 20 ch USB DAC to support 3D sound, i.e. 9.4.6 or at least 16 ch DAC for 7.4.4. Affordable means around $500 or less versus the pro sound DACs at $1k+. It would also support active loudspeaker projects using MC. Include digital volume control/mute for those that don't trust the PC alone for volume control on expensive speakers.

I have run my home theater for over 8 years without an AVR just using a PC and in recent years running MC for DVR and Blu-ray playback. However, I never got around to trying the parametric EQ and convolution because it just seemed like too much work, especially when I had less time to play around. Today I am now considering a DVR in my future because I want Atmos. MC supporting Atmos would be a significant value add IMHO. Also the software, hardware and overall solution are unique solutions no one else is producing.

Oh and if this all seems too challenging then just leverage Jim's artistic skills and start producing esoterically styled pottery cable lifters at outrageous prices and retire rich, certain in the knowledge of having delivered exquisite ephemeral musical nirvana

JimH · « **Reply #13 on:** October 19, 2017, 06:35:40 pm »

You're not jmone's third cousin twice removed, are you?

OverTheAir · « **Reply #14 on:** October 19, 2017, 06:58:33 pm »

Quote from: JimH on October 19, 2017, 06:35:40 pm

You're not jmone's third cousin twice removed, are you?

Who? Me? Well I'm a Brit 20 years in the US now and he's an Aussie so anythings possible

That and the fact I pretty much agree with his assessment above.

The one development that seems very intriguing that might tie some of the threads together is the plan for ATSC 3.0 to serve over-the-air and streaming content for home and portable media consumption with HDR/WCG and 3D sound. However, I have little hope any content providers will be giving up their in house streaming services since everything seems to be about advert revenue and the user-as-the-product nowadays.

JimH · « **Reply #15 on:** October 19, 2017, 07:02:23 pm »

For many years, I've thought "What would happen if we let our users serve their libraries to other users, and then offered to pay the content owners?" You all have great collections of content, usually in high quality formats, and well curated.

What would The Man do?

jmone · « **Reply #16 on:** October 19, 2017, 09:10:05 pm »

JimH · « **Reply #17 on:** October 19, 2017, 09:15:22 pm »

We'd offer to pay.

jmone · « **Reply #18 on:** October 19, 2017, 09:35:40 pm »

There is nothing to lose by asking. I guess you could build it off the store infrastructure that you had. I for one would purchase such tracks/albums instead of buying a physical CD (if it was of that quality of course).

Listener · « **Reply #19 on:** October 19, 2017, 10:21:22 pm »

Quote from: RD James on October 19, 2017, 06:13:57 pm

Not sure that I agree with the photo management/editing stuff. There are already a million programs for this, and more fully-featured; e.g. Adobe's Lightroom.
Not only that, but no-one I know transfers photos to their PC any more.
Anyone still using a dedicated camera is transferring them to their mobile devices and editing there, but most have stopped carrying a dedicated camera around with them any more.
Everything is stored and edited on their phone/tablet or the cloud and posted to online services. (facebook, instagram etc.)

I don't think that you read what MusicHawk and I wrote. We both talked about the lack of PC applications that offer good image management features. We did not advocate that JRiver should make yet another another image editing application. (MC does have some image editing functionality. A modest amount of those functions would be a useful part of an image management application.) We both have a need for those features and we want image management on PCs.

Do you have a need for image management yourself? Have you ever tried managing thousands or tens of thousands on a smartphone or a tablet? Have you tried adding metadata on a smartphone or tablet? Your blanket dismissal of doing image editing or image management on PCs and an assertion suggests that you don't have much need for image management yourself.

I talk to other photographers who take lots of photos and select and edit a subset before sharing them online. And they intend to keep the selected photos for future use. They currently use PC based tools for photo editing and for managing images.

JimH asked for feedback about what to do next. MusicHawk and I described what we'd like to see based on our own needs. It is up to JRiver to decide how to use their resources. If you don't have a need for such features and don't have your own experience with them, I don't think you are adding anything positive to the discussion.

tij · « **Reply #20 on:** October 19, 2017, 11:34:52 pm »

Quote from: RD James on October 19, 2017, 06:13:57 pm

Not sure that I agree with the photo management/editing stuff. There are already a million programs for this, and more fully-featured; e.g. Adobe's Lightroom.
Not only that, but no-one I know transfers photos to their PC any more.
Anyone still using a dedicated camera is transferring them to their mobile devices and editing there, but most have stopped carrying a dedicated camera around with them any more.
Everything is stored and edited on their phone/tablet or the cloud and posted to online services. (facebook, instagram etc.)

Majority of people do not transfer anything to their PC. They listen to streaming services on their smart phones in lossy formats ... stream movies with Dolby Digital soundtracks to their TV ... store their pictures in iClouds ... and are perfectly happy with it.

But then people using JRiver are not "majority" ... they like their flacs and full quality MKVs ... they like their media any time, anywhere (these people build their own NAS from scratch ... pretty sure no one I know do that)

Therefore, I have to agree with MusicHawk and Listener. Better Image Management is something that JRiver community will appreciate. Plex and Kodi do crappy image management. Most consumer grade "Image Managements" like LightRoom and ACDsee are not client/server design (cannot share library to other PCs) and are more forecast on editing picture than sharing. iPhoto used to be good ... until they force users to cloud.

This is not image editing ... just image management and sharing ... I actually did not expect to use JRiver for Image Management and was planning to get one of those client/server Digital Asset Management (albeit aim at prosumers ... as these tends to be super expensive) ... but if JRiver can do that ... it would be WOW

I can imagine a scenario when my mates come for beer ... then I use JRemote to filter picture of us together (assuming I tag them correctly) ... and slideshow it on my HTPC with good flac music playing in background

Hilton · « **Reply #21 on:** October 20, 2017, 04:50:49 am »

Quote from: mattlovell on October 19, 2017, 09:38:05 am

Hi,

I do think what JRiver has achieved with media playback across a wide set of OSes/platforms is great. I also like the flexibility and customization possible within your database.

I still think more could be done with the information available in the database, a la Roon. To me, JRemote is still your best remote interface, but it seems like it has been static for quite a while now. For the popular (modern) portion of my music collection, I do find myself itching for some of Roon's "exploration" features. (For the directory- and file-based classical portion, forget it! JRiver's the only solution thus far.)

Being able to generate handsome reports from the database would also be interesting. (I know, the information's all there, so I could put together charts from a spreadsheet myself. Automatic generation is always slick, though.)

Perhaps that suggestion is too feature-like.

I also have a small thought on the hardware front. Again, perhaps this itch is just too small of a market to pursue ... I'd love to see JRiver running in a small (and quiet) HTPC case that sports an internal display and (perhaps) a BD drive. It would be neat to see artwork, title, etc for the currently-playing media, without turning on the "big TV" and without having to track down where the tablet went (a first world problem, true). There are also times I'd love to see some "bouncing lights" of a spectrum display or some other music visualization. Being able to turn the display off (automatically) for movie playback would be nice, too.

I have a Raspberry Pi-like audio setup (well, a small CuBox), using JRiver on a PC as the server. The audio quality and file format flexibility is great, but I want more of a "stereo component" look to the widget. The standard Intel NUC case doesn't satisfy. I know there are various displays available for the Raspberry Pi, but there seem few enclosures that have the proper finished look to them, and I'm not crafty enough to build my own.

With a BD drive, such a small HTPC seems like it could compete in many ways with a component from Oppo -- a "do it all" player but with a better interface. Alternatively, perhaps some component vendor would be interested in incorporating JRiver as their interface and playback engine. Your theater view seems like a nicer interface than what I've seen any component vendor pull off!

I'll try to think bigger thoughts and see if any other suggestions come to mind.

Thanks,
Matt

If you really want such a device, (DVR / optical type media stereo component device) I could build you a custom one off machine.

I know all the parts and capabilities are there to do it as I've looked at making one myself. The problem is the price if you want decent decoding and upscaling capability for 4K and a decent "stereo component" case with inbuilt screen and media/navigation buttons. Then there's still the matter of keeping it simple and intuitive from a remote or built-in onscreen display perspective. Sort of like a souped up Id on steroids that is simple, but more powerful.

@JimH - I'm with Nathan.. I think you're in a position with the teams knowledge and experiences to do something like Trakt media management or Reelgood (maybe best of both). It would be a stretch for sure, but the difference if you did it is that it could hook into your own library or other users shared libraries, or any other online streaming service.

It would be a lot of work, but think about it. One media manager to rule them all.. and playback either natively in MC or launch the external vendors web/app.
I think this sort of thing would be best done completely outside MC and just build the interface so it can talk to MC, (and all the other content Databases and sources)

Reelgood
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/21/reelgood-combines-all-of-your-streaming-services-heres-how-it-works.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_video_streaming_aggregators

PS: I already use Trakt to create my own watch lists and wanted lists.

kwake · « **Reply #22 on:** October 20, 2017, 05:11:11 am »

Direct integration with Google Home (to voice control already-running MC on a PC and to play back music from the Google Home speaker from an MC server).

JimH · « **Reply #23 on:** October 20, 2017, 07:11:35 am »

Split mattkahn post

JimH · « **Reply #24 on:** October 20, 2017, 07:15:57 am »

Split My Media Server Went Down

JimH · « **Reply #25 on:** October 20, 2017, 07:51:06 am »

I've removed some off topic replies.

JimH · « **Reply #26 on:** October 20, 2017, 07:52:11 am »

Hilton,
I copied part of your post here:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,112812.msg780178.html#msg780178

mattlovell · « **Reply #27 on:** October 20, 2017, 08:42:13 am »

Quote from: Hilton on October 20, 2017, 04:50:49 am

If you really want such a device, (DVR / optical type media stereo component device) I could build you a custom one off machine. I know all the parts and capabilities are there to do it as I've looked at making one myself. The problem is the price if you want decent decoding and upscaling capability for 4K and a decent "stereo component" case with inbuilt screen and media/navigation buttons. Then there's still the matter of keeping it simple and intuitive from a remote or built-in onscreen display perspective. Sort of like a souped up Id on steroids that is simple, but more powerful.

Indeed. I'd be interested in seeing what you would propose!

To handle 4K video well would likely require something more powerful than the (current) Raspberry Pi. I tried playing for a bit with an ODroid C2, but, for whatever reason, I couldn't get the thing to pass-thru multi-channel audio. Personally, I'm pretty satisfied with the recent Oppo UHD players for video; I'm just looking to scratch the itch for a professional-looking but not ridiculously $$$ music player.

In poking around recently, I kept thinking that some company would be making a fairly small (4" to 7") USB or HDMI monitor with an attractive enough case or stand (walnut's always nice

) that could serve as an "outboard" display. USB-powered and USB-attached would be preferable, as then there would be only one cord. Alternatively, a wirelessly charging small tablet on a nice, tilted stand could do (with the display just serving as JRemote's Now Playing screen).

The nicest thing I found is this, which isn't quite the look I was going for (and with too much focus on touchscreen control):

http://www.audioxpress.com/news/rasptouch-open-source-audio-player-combines-raspberry-pi-3-and-ess-sabre-dac

Then I started investigating how well Kodi or some other media player could handle a second display (assuming a USB-attached second monitor). I found little encouraging there, aside from the FrontView+ extension for Kodi. I'm still not sure about JRiver MC for this attribute.

Web searches did turn up a Raspberry Pi-based Bryston BDP-Pi unit, but the markup on that little unit seems.. um, high. I have no idea how well that's selling, but it seems like there's plenty of price points below that for which an interesting unit could still be built.

A.K. · « **Reply #28 on:** October 20, 2017, 10:12:35 am »

JRTube, alternative for Youtube monopoly. Users can upload their media directly from Media Center to JRTube, free version limited number of uploads, paid version unlimited.

JimH · « **Reply #29 on:** October 20, 2017, 10:47:26 am »

Quote from: A.K. on October 20, 2017, 10:12:35 am

JRTube, alternative for Youtube monopoly. Users can upload their media directly from Media Center to JRTube, free version limited number of uploads, paid version unlimited.

Nice one.

mojave · « **Reply #30 on:** October 20, 2017, 02:42:29 pm »

Quote from: JimH on October 19, 2017, 07:02:23 pm

For many years, I've thought "What would happen if we let our users serve their libraries to other users, and then offered to pay the content owners?"

I've let others watch football games timeshifted by a few seconds.

mattlovell · « **Reply #31 on:** October 20, 2017, 02:59:02 pm »

Quote from: mojave on October 20, 2017, 02:42:29 pm

I've let others watch football games timeshifted by a few seconds.

Seconds? How big is your living room?!

JimH · « **Reply #32 on:** October 20, 2017, 06:11:26 pm »

Quote from: rec head on October 19, 2017, 02:16:07 pm

I agree with the people that mention streaming. It is no longer the future. The only problem is that I usually get much worse streams on my HTPC than I do on any streaming device in my house. I don't think any media company actually wants their content streamed to a PC so it doesn't get copied. I know services like Roku and Apple TV are trying to have one interface for everything. I haven't tried the ATV but on the Roku it is pretty mediocre. I'd love to have one list of new episodes and just hit watch without knowing or caring what service it is coming from.

This is a great goal. I'm not sure whether we would have enough access to make it happen. But ...

JimH · « **Reply #33 on:** October 20, 2017, 06:28:44 pm »

Quote from: jmone on October 19, 2017, 04:37:48 pm

This pic is 8 years old when JimH first broached the Anything, Anywhere, Anytime and I like to refer to it when this topic comes up periodically to see what has changed.

I cringe whenever you remind me of promises we made a decade ago. It's like sitting in the principal's office waiting for the other shoe to drop.

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I'd love for MC to be an aggregator of all media sources, but instead we see the opposite.

I agree. I just think the terrain is too dangerous.

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Netflix and other removed their public API, and the newer ones don't seem to be interested or go broke.

It's not even a question of interest. We've talked with most of the usual suspects. They just don't offer a business model that includes JRiver.

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- Encrypted Content: Another one where the industry seems to be about face. I have 600+ Movie Discs and they keep trying to make it harder to store, manage, and play this from MC. Their attempts don't stop piracy, just convenience. Anyway, I like MC's stance on this. Full support to un-encrypted content (BD / UHD BD etc) and leaving the decryption to the user.

I wish we could do more. It's just illegal.

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- Portable Devices: Apple locked the ability for 3rd party players to sync to their devices This may not be that much of an issue however and users seem to have moved from wanting to plug their devices into a MC PC but instead would prefer to Sync OTA. I'm guessing this needs something like a Full Player on iOS and Android more than a remote app to overcome this.
- OTA/Tuners: Nice improvements in this area.
- Streamer Devices: The industry now has an (over) abundance of streaming protocols for sending content to devices (Speakers, TV, Consoles etc) such as DLNA, Airplay, SONOS, Cast, etc etc (depending on what devices you have purchased). MC really only supports DLNA but these days many homes now have a mix of these and are trying to bring a Whole House approach to rendering the media (aka SONOS).

Sonos lacks video, etc. I write them from time to time, but it goes into deep space.

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As part of Jim's goal is to play to ANY device this would be an area worth serious consideration. All I want is the ability for MC to "see" these devices, select which ones to "link" and then "play" content in sync to these.

You need to stop listening to your kids. Android, not iOS, is the future. Plastics, too.

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Converter 8/10: MC does a pretty good job doing Format/Time/Place/Device Shifting for various content to various devices but only with preset profiles. At some point, it would be good to have MC expand these profiles or allow users to specify these as they have not changed for years.

Would you like to head the committee?

jmone · « **Reply #34 on:** October 21, 2017, 02:20:49 am »

Quote from: JimH on October 20, 2017, 06:28:44 pm

Would you like to head the committee?

just like the first RO many years ago (pre LAV even!!)

thorsten · « **Reply #35 on:** October 21, 2017, 03:34:44 am »

Hi there,

In General, most is already said.

I use the picture library on my server as I don‘t want my pictures in the cloud. These are mine!

The biggest field of optimasation is still the user interface... I try theater view from time to time but still hassle with it. As with JRemote: I love it and use it as standard,but still would like to have the possibility to customize it more. And it is possible when I look at interfaces from hifi-companies that seem to use JRiver as core System.

And regarding the integration of amazon prime, netflix etc.: one way might be,that the pc apps start more „easily“ out of jriver, combined with an automatic switching of the sound setup, because I Need MC for my activated speaker Setup. Sorry, my english is not detailed enough for indeep explanation

Keep up your good work,

Thorsten

michael123 · « **Reply #36 on:** October 21, 2017, 04:55:54 am »

JRiver is somewhat complex for novice users (not me, .. but I am helping friends).
Even for me.. it took me 3 years to discover that there is, and where it is, the low-pass filter of DSD to PCM converter

Dirac VST is not always simple to integrate, I would like you to talk to each other. There is a significant chunk of 'heavy' audiophiles here.

There are also stability issues, I still experience sometimes crashes (when working with Dirac)

As mentioned before, DSD is still handled as an 'add-on', I would like to be able to specify the re-sampling and supported natively rates of my DAC on the same page.

I would like to have some commercial support here (for a fee I mean).

Still, these are peanuts .. JRiver is the best software I used for playback, both audio and video.

tyler69 · « **Reply #37 on:** October 21, 2017, 06:54:43 am »

Some ideas that come up to my mind, are:

1. Feature consistency across OS's: While some things are not available (e.g. madVR) on other systems than Windows, TV support in general should be available on all three systems (not available on Linux iirc) for example. A Table that compares features to systems would be preety welcome to me. This consistency also implies that MC works flawlessly between those systems (e.g. DLNA).

2. Native UX on OS's: MC should not look and feel the same across OS's but rather be more integrated into the OS in my opinion.

3. Integrate convolution: While it's nice to be able to add convolution filters in DSP, providing the possibility to create those filters would nice. Licensing other tools and integrating them might be possible?! I don't think any other media player has this, so it would be another USP for JRiver.

4. Possibility to integrate with other software: If I'm not mistaken, Roon can be used as a frontend for HQplayer for example. Integration with other software might also attract new customers that only want to use MC as a library manager. After all, that's a valid use case. I guess this would also include Netflix-like tools.

5. Rethinking of how the menu and options are structured: Some things are redundant, some options appear misplaced for me. Change the resampling options: Consolidate DSD and PCM into an easy to setup menu with more flexibility. Add Tooltips to options when hovering over them.

6. Probably beating a dead horse here, but: adding Airplay support might attract more users since some functionality especially for Apple is already in MC. Allowing users to use MC as an Airplay server or client might open up new use cases (also in conjunction with WDM). I understand JimH does not want to keep making changes to the implementation when Apple chooses to change something in the protocol, but I guess that's how it works. Sonos is probably a more closed ecosystem than Apple is.

7. Rethink the Wiki or at least update information to reflect the current functionality. Also promote current and new functionality more on the webpage.

8. Make more use of CPU cores: I'm not sure about how the engine is using the CPU, but reading through the forums some functionality uses only one core. Since nowadays dual core and even quad core CPU's are preety standard at home, maybe this might have potential to optimize the strain on the CPU.

9. More work on Panel: Make it customizable (e.g. like one can make JRemote somehow customizable in MC) and offer the possibility to present more information on Panel. I think Panel has much potential.

10. Make the application modular: It is somehow modular since the user can remove or add functions in the options. However, offering different licenses might give an insight on what the customer wants and what he does not want. This thought keeps coming up to my mind, everytime new functionality (Engen, Playpower,?) I never use is pushed into the product.

So summing up, I see three key areas where MC could be optimized: 1. More open to other software, 2. More customer-tailored solution, 3. Usability

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #38 on:** October 21, 2017, 07:41:58 am »

@tyler69

Regarding your number 1, if I recall correctly, television support on non-Windows platforms might not be doable. Not sure if that's still the same story now or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's not (or at least very difficult).

Number 2 kinda touches on "native UI" which is likely way easier said than done (since MC does its own UI/window drawing), hence why there's skins for these sort of things. For example AFAIK, MC for Mac defaults to the Modern Cards White Edition skin, but IMO, it should default to Modern Cards Grey Edition since that skin is specifically "Mac-esk" by design. More integrated? How so? I do know on Linux there's some room for integration there with MC for Linux, but once MPRIS support lands adding that should be pretty straightforward.

In my mind numbers 5 and 7 go hand-in-hand here. Instead of tooltips on options, a little i information icon could be added which when clicked launches the default web browser to the corresponding wiki page explaining the feature.

Speaking of the wiki, it goes without saying that there's a lot of room for improvements there. Here's an idea for addressing that; choose a couple people to be wiki/documentation contributors - those who are known in the community and can help out by writing up documentation on the wiki regarding the topics of their particular expertise. You could even incentivise it, e.g. do some documentation work on the wiki and possibly get something in return like a free upgrade license or something like that?

I'm more than willing to write up wiki documentation for MC for Linux and Mac along with improvements to the taming Windows Defender article (for Windows 10 + MC 64-bit builds) and maybe new taming articles for specific antivirus/antimalware applications which are known to be troublesome (Bitdefender comes to mind here).

drmimosa · « **Reply #39 on:** October 21, 2017, 07:49:41 am »

Jim, it's a tough question because the current software is so feature rich.

Developing a syncronized streaming "audioclock" similar to Airplay and Sonos seems like the next logical step, so that the IdPi system is a cheaper, more functional alternative to Sonos. This idea has come up a lot here. Airplay code may be an open source idea now, it's been out since 2004. What is holding you back?

Second, a fully baked AVR input and output system baked into the software may solve your streaming problem for audio. The pieces are in place for this already: WDM driver, Zones, Playpower. Then, you hit Spotify on your phone connected to JRiver ID via Bluetooth and you automatically get media throughout the house. Transmission of the files over Bluetooth from a phone to the PC may solve a lot of legal hurdles.

Also, I would love to see Engen move forward to a full range house control system (thermostats, window blinds, light sensor based timers, control of other protocols like Hue, etc). Any plans for a path forward here?

The streaming environment of walled gardens isn't going away, especially as Google and Amazon become more like monopolies and less like companies.

I asked my nephew (7) how he listens to music and he said "We have a box, and I talk to it and it plays..."

This isn't going to change, and fewer and fewer people are going to own media files. What else can you do to adapt to this environment? The AVR Engen idea means JRiver supplies the "wires" and "pipes" to connect the home, phones/devices supply the streaming.

Sharing user libraries would be great as well. But you need better limits to user accounts then, otherwise forum members will start turning my lights on in the middle of the night.

Thank you for listening, it's really remarkable to have this type of input as a consumer.

imugli · « **Reply #40 on:** October 21, 2017, 08:16:09 am »

I've never really been sure why TV support in Linux isn't possible. The divers are baked into the kernel these days, so it's just a matter of MC hooking into them. I know that's oversimplifying it, but it should be DOABLE.

rec head · « **Reply #41 on:** October 21, 2017, 09:43:54 am »

There are some ideas here that would resonate in my home;

Image management. I could care less but my wife is a birder. I could see her and all the other photo nuts loving powerful EASY to use image tagging. This could be marketed to birders, flower(ers?), insect(ers?), plane spotters, train spotters, etc. There are probably as many of these folks as there are us audio and home theater enthusiasts. And they are just as crazy.

I would also be interested in a box that did everything including Dirac, optical drive, and could be licensed to play everything and decode everything. I'd spend $2,000 easily to replace my AVR. Only problem is that you would need HDMI inputs for the streaming boxes. As stated streaming services aren't interested in playing with MC. Unless you could get the box to run Android TV and we could add those apps.

I would also be on board with sharing my library. It is available now in Plex. I just add my friends and they can access my Plex server. Obviously this would have to work smoothly with high quality only or it isn't worth it.

Fitzcaraldo215 · « **Reply #42 on:** October 22, 2017, 02:30:40 pm »

Quote from: rec head on October 21, 2017, 09:43:54 am

There are some ideas here that would resonate in my home;

Image management. I could care less but my wife is a birder. I could see her and all the other photo nuts loving powerful EASY to use image tagging. This could be marketed to birders, flower(ers?), insect(ers?), plane spotters, train spotters, etc. There are probably as many of these folks as there are us audio and home theater enthusiasts. And they are just as crazy.

I would also be interested in a box that did everything including Dirac, optical drive, and could be licensed to play everything and decode everything. I'd spend $2,000 easily to replace my AVR. Only problem is that you would need HDMI inputs for the streaming boxes. As stated streaming services aren't interested in playing with MC. Unless you could get the box to run Android TV and we could add those apps.

I would also be on board with sharing my library. It is available now in Plex. I just add my friends and they can access my Plex server. Obviously this would have to work smoothly with high quality only or it isn't worth it.

On the "box to play everything" and replace your AVR, the bits and pieces are mostly pretty much there now for my needs. I eliminated my prepro, cable box and Universal player about 3-4 years ago. The PC, the 7.1 version of Dirac, and the cable card tuner together cost me under $2k, but the 7.1 DAC (Exasound e28) cost much more. Good Mch DACS are few, and really good ones expensive. Some additional software, like Slyfox, is also necessary, of course. It also took some challenging effort learning about the bits and pieces and doing the system integration to make it all work. But, HT processors and AVRs also take a lot of learning to set up properly.

But, I only play music, BD videos and TV through it. SACDs require ripping into my library before being playable, which I do independently via an Oppo 103 on my network. My optical drives can directly handle CD, DVD and BD. I use no networked clients, just JR server directly, often controlled by JRemote.

HDMI input with DHCP into a PC is a huge licensing problem. So, I doubt you will ever see that.

JRiver plus Windows is a bit flakey sometimes, and there is no way my wife could navigate around to use it, even music selection in JRemote. It is often a bit clumsy and frustrating to the uninitiated. I am used to it. But, she could not master my HT processor system either, though that was simpler. That is fine with me, though. I have not tried some of JRiver's newer GUI tools attempting to make it easier for idiots. Ease of learning/ease of use are major challenges in complex, feature intensive software like JRiver.

Sound and video quality is absolutely top notch and much better than my previous setup. I do not think it could be equaled by a prepro or AVR at anywhere near the same cost. So, I found it very worthwhile. The only thing I would love to see is BD menu support for navigation of my BD classical concert discs without having to try to tag them track by track via particles.

Moe · « **Reply #43 on:** October 23, 2017, 06:00:58 pm »

If you all really want to look to the future there are two areas that I feel you should be looking into; VR headsets and Amazon Echo (and similar devices), I think we are going to see more and more of these devices in the future and the earlier you can get in and become the gold standard the better.

With your stated mission of "Any media, anytime, anywhere. Deliver highest quality whenever possible." I think your biggest opportunity lies with VR headsets (Oculus Rift, HTC Vive, etc.) I think this is an area that is going to become huge and right now the video solutions (that I've seen anyway) are severely lacking. I haven't found a single player, that plays 180/360 content, that has any type of library. Every player I've seen you need to navigate to the file you want to play, via windows explorer, and click it. You don't get any kind of meta data, no cover art, nothing. Having theater View in VR would be absolutely amazing. I find this a pretty exciting field and I believe its just going to grow and grow and I feel the earlier you all can get in, the better. I've used MC with in an app called "Virtual Desktop" and it works well but why use a third party when I could just MC. Also, using MC within Virtual Desktop doesn't allow playback of 180/360 content.

Regarding the Amazon echo, there is a third party solution that works pretty well now (House Band) but native support would be even better.

JimH · « **Reply #44 on:** October 23, 2017, 06:13:16 pm »

Both are interesting. Bob and I were just talking about whether we could voice enable the Id.

Hendrik · « **Reply #45 on:** October 23, 2017, 06:22:56 pm »

Amazon actually lets people use their Alexa Voice service outside of their own devices, so you could almost rebuild your own Echo. https://github.com/alexa/alexa-avs-sample-app - but its still basic Alexa, so MC would need to be talking to Alexa first.

tzr916 · « **Reply #46 on:** October 23, 2017, 09:33:47 pm »

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An MC app for Android devices would make me VERY happy indeed.

+1

Fully functional generic android client that looks and acts like Windows Theaterview (with TV/Video/Audio/cover art, the whole deal).

Also- simple access to MC library when outside of home network WITHOUT need for static ip and opening router ports. Home security camera/dvr companies can do it. Xfinity/Dish/Directv/etc can do it. Even MediaPortal says they can do it.... Maybe MC could figure it out for us!

syndromeofadown · « **Reply #47 on:** October 24, 2017, 09:38:06 pm »

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Where to Next?

Metadata

Metadata seams to be all the rage these days but in my opinion it is typically done terribly.
Metadata is typically looked up upon playing a song, or alternatively whole libraries are updated constantly but no data is stored in tags.

If MusicBrainz's database was integrated into MC it would allow for metadata to be stored in tags permanently.

syndromeofadown · « **Reply #48 on:** October 24, 2017, 10:10:22 pm »

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Where to Next?

Yet another android app

A few things have changed android devices recently.
1 SD cards have increased to extremely high capacity and transfer speeds.
2 Most devices support DACs.
3 High end DAPs run on Android.

So android devices can now hold close to 500 GB affordably and play audio at a decent quality.

Problem is there aren't any apps designed to play large databases. There is only one app available that can handle building a library from 500GB of audio. There are only a couple apps that can cast local audio. As far as I know there aren't any apps that allow you to make custom views, which is necessary with large libraries.

So whether it's a new app or just added onto JRemote I think the following would make a unique popular app:
- Play from server as well as cast local audio
- Import custom views from MC
- Reliable database for local TB sized library
- Album art that actually shows up
- Support for Artist and Album Artist (likely taken care of with custom views)

dhiggins · « **Reply #49 on:** December 11, 2017, 07:22:22 pm »

Integration with SmartSpeakers (Google Home and Alexa, others?) could be very big.

I've been playing with Google's Assistant API. Not too tough to get integration going with the WebServices that MC exposes, though it's trickier than your average user might be up for.

Simplifying that could be really big. Alexa and Google aren't likely to make it easy to play your own music collection through their services anytime soon (they've already got Pandora/spotify integration for casual users).

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