Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[jmone]

...also explains why (historically) when bringing up the MC OSD to change a setting it would get all juddery... I just ignored it as when the OSD went away, so did the judder.  I always thought it was some mismatch between the video frame rate and that used for the OSD.  Thanks for the info, makes sense but I'm not sure how to "fix" it as it is unwatchable if it is for the entire movie.  I guess madshi has some work!

[Hendrik]

Yeah its quite unfortunate that madVR shows such obvious degredation for some people when in interactive mode. It's just supposed to reduce the latency at the expense of some frame drop safety, not entirely give up smoothness.
I could tell madVR to not do that, but then you might have up to half a second of menu delay, depending on your queue settings.

[jmone]

Shame it is not a config item that you could select, eg 8 frames for video, and x frames for interactive.  How it is now on BD-J discs, madVR would not be a viable renderer.  Oddly, I did not notice any issues with either judder or delay with EVR in the menu or when interacting with the menu.

[mattkhan]

One title (10 Cloverfield Lane) sits at a black screen when using menus, plays back normally without menus. The only obvious oddity in logs is

Code: [Select]

0035203: 11984: Playback: CBDNavDemux::BDLog: DiscImpl:0: ERROR: Invalid Disc ID 00000000000000000000000000000000
0035219: 11984: Playback: CBDNavDemux::BDLog: <unknown.java>:java.io.PrintStream.println:-1: java.io.FileNotFoundException: W:\10 Cloverfield Lane\CERTIFICATE\id.bdmv (The system cannot find the file specified)
0035219: 11984: Playback: CBDNavDemux::BDLog: <unknown.java>:java.io.PrintStream.println:-1: at java.io.RandomAccessFile.open0(Native Method)
0035219: 11984: Playback: CBDNavDemux::BDLog: <unknown.java>:java.io.PrintStream.println:-1: at java.io.RandomAccessFile.open(Unknown Source)
0035219: 11984: Playback: CBDNavDemux::BDLog: <unknown.java>:java.io.PrintStream.println:-1: at java.io.RandomAccessFile.<init>(Unknown Source)
0035219: 11984: Playback: CBDNavDemux::BDLog: <unknown.java>:java.io.PrintStream.println:-1: at java.io.RandomAccessFile.<init>(Unknown Source)
0035219: 11984: Playback: CBDNavDemux::BDLog: <unknown.java>:java.io.PrintStream.println:-1: at at.c(Unknown Source)
0035219: 11984: Playback: CBDNavDemux::BDLog: <unknown.java>:java.io.PrintStream.println:-1: at UpdaterXlet.O(Unknown Source)
0035219: 11984: Playback: CBDNavDemux::BDLog: <unknown.java>:java.io.PrintStream.println:-1: at UpdaterXlet.G(Unknown Source)
0035219: 11984: Playback: CBDNavDemux::BDLog: <unknown.java>:java.io.PrintStream.println:-1: at UpdaterXlet.e(Unknown Source)
0035219: 11984: Playback: CBDNavDemux::BDLog: <unknown.java>:java.io.PrintStream.println:-1: at af.s(Unknown Source)
0035219: 11984: Playback: CBDNavDemux::BDLog: <unknown.java>:java.io.PrintStream.println:-1: at af.r(Unknown Source)
0035219: 11984: Playback: CBDNavDemux::BDLog: <unknown.java>:java.io.PrintStream.println:-1: at s.run(Unknown Source)
0035219: 11984: Playback: CBDNavDemux::BDLog: java.awt.BDRootWindow:0: ERROR: sync(): not visible

not sure if this is related and/or is a known issue?

[Hendrik]

Shame it is not a config item that you could select, eg 8 frames for video, and x frames for interactive.  How it is now on BD-J discs, madVR would not be a viable renderer.  Oddly, I did not notice any issues with either judder or delay with EVR in the menu or when interacting with the menu.

EVR always has a relatively low latency in comparison to madVR, since it doesn't pre-render a whole bunch of frames, so it doesn't enter any special interactive mode like madVR does.

[Hendrik]

One title (10 Cloverfield Lane) sits at a black screen when using menus, plays back normally without menus. The only obvious oddity in logs is

I can't tell from that alone if its related, but is this not a complete rip, or something like that? That file its referencing should usually be available, unless you only saved the BDMV folder instead of all of it, or something like that.

[jmone]

EVR always has a relatively low latency in comparison to madVR, since it doesn't pre-render a whole bunch of frames, so it doesn't enter any special interactive mode like madVR does.

In Hendrik and madshi we trust....

[mattkhan]

I can't tell from that alone if its related, but is this not a complete rip, or something like that? That file its referencing should usually be available, unless you only saved the BDMV folder instead of all of it, or something like that.

all my BDs are complete rips, I can't see an id.bdmv in any of them though.

[jmone]

FYI - MC only rips the BDMV folder (and does not copy the CERTIFICATE or any other root folder and never has) + disc.inf file if using AnyDVDHD.  That said, I've had no issues so far with playback on my MC based ripped without the CERTIFICATE folder (which would be 99% of what I have).  I don't have 10 Cloverfield Lane however.

[jmone]

Yeah its quite unfortunate that madVR shows such obvious degredation for some people when in interactive mode. It's just supposed to reduce the latency at the expense of some frame drop safety, not entirely give up smoothness.
I could tell madVR to not do that, but then you might have up to half a second of menu delay, depending on your queue settings.

Thanks for the tips.  After more playing I reduced the queues in madVR down to 8 for decoder and 4 for the rest.  Judder seems to be gone so far with both OSD and on BD-J in general.

I also updated to the latest nvidia GPU drivers and I'm now seeing some different issues to the screen shots I posted for:
1) '71 : Will not play now (black screen 0.00-live in the timeline)
2) 13 Hours : Menu Selection is now highlighted correctly

[Hendrik]

Which queue settings did you use before to get the strong judder? Might help when I talk to madshi about that to have more details.

[jmone]

I had run the madvr "restore default settings.bat" when testing to make sure it was not any "dumb" setting I'd previously made, so it was "stock" at 16 for the decoder and 8 for the rest.  I'll test on my other HTPC now.

[jmone]

Yup reducing the queues on the other HTPC also worked in removing the judder.

Do you need any logs or testing on the discs that just "black screen : 0:00 - Live"?

[jmone]

OK: Here are two logs from "'71"
- 71 Log OK.TXT : From my main PC, plays fine, starts with the black screen on 0:00 - Live but then progress just fine.
- 71 Log No Play.TXT : From a Library Server client, gets stuck on the opening black screen and does not progress, just sits on 0:00 - Live

Both logs have an error about opening the missing id.bdmv / certificate folder but that does not seem to matter (well I hope not as I'd hate to need to re-rip over 1,000 discs!)

Edit: It does not matter if it is EVR or madVR - same issue.  Also on this particular disc it was playing OK on my HTPC (with some issues with missing menu items), but when I upgraded nvidia to 390.77 it now stalls.  The Desktop PC that is fine with this disc is on 388.13

[Hendrik]

For the failure case there is an error here:
C:\Users\HTPC\AppData\Local\Temp\libbluray-bdj-cache\150636202101\mount\00000\null\res/BLACK/Black.png does not exist

It fails shortly after because the image is missing.

Perhaps you can try deleting the entire libbluray-bdj-cache folder in the Temp folder?
Not sure why that might fail randomly on some systems and not others. Usually the folder should be empty after playback is stopped, so it cleans up after itself. It needs to unpack some files from the BD-J .jar files there so they can be loaded, if that fails for unknown reasons, stuff is missing and stuff fails.

I don't really see how that might be related to graphics drivers, though, unless your C drive is suddenly full =p

I should add a way to enable more libbluray logging, which might shine some light on whats going on, but its just so spammy.
Actually, libbluray has a built-in way to override the debug mask: Set an environment variable called "BD_DEBUG_MASK", and give it a value of "241663". Make sure to restart MC after setting that, and see your log getting spammed with a lot of stuff

[jmone]

Interesting, I'll give those ideas a go.  It could be permission related as on that HTPC I could not open the Log from the MC GUI (said permission denied) which I have never seen before... I had to open it with Explorer to be able to add it to my post above.  I'll have more of a test and report back.

[jmone]

It looks like the HTPC is cleaning up after itself just fine (however the "Main PC" is leaving some items behind in the libbluray-bdj-cache directory and the log shows entries like : 20706406: 12192: Playback: CBDNavDemux::BDLog: org.videolan.CacheDir:0: ERROR: Error removing C:\Users\natha\AppData\Local\Temp\libbluray-bdj-cache\330757500243532)

Anyway, I've linked to the Zip files (3mb each) of the content of these directory from both the HTPC (does not play) and the MAIN (does play).  Interestingly the Black.png file is not in
..."mount\00000\null\res/BLACK/Black.png" on either PC but is actually in
..."VFSCache\BDMV\JAR\00001\res\BLACK\Black.png" on both

There is no "...\null\" subdirectory I can find anywhere in the structure. 

BDJ Cache - Main.zip
BDJ Cache - HTPC

[jmone]

Well good news (though I can not explain it)..but,
- Tried also removing the "...AppData\Roaming\bluray" folder that is also created when playing a UHD, no luck with playback,
- Tried with a Local Library, no luck with playback
- Rebooted the HTPC again and it now plays on the HTPC with both the Local Library and also as a Library Server client (still get the missing menu items). 

So something had became stuck for this disc on my HTPC and is now fine.  I'll check on the 2nd HTPC once people stop watching content and see what (if any particular action works). 

[jmone]

Tried all of the above with the other HTPC.  No Luck on that one (yet).  I'll be away for a few days from tmr morning.  Good Luck and thanks again.

[JimH]

Thanks for all your testing, Nathan.  Apologies to your wife.

[jmone]

My pleasure.  You should feel sorry for Hendrik trying to decipher my ramblings!  FYI,  it is interesting to see what is on some of these discs.  28 days has 4 alt endings. 

[RoderickGI]

FYI,  it is interesting to see what is on some of these discs.  28 days has 4 alt endings.

This is why I wanted BD menus! It is great that it is coming along. Thanks guys.

[jmone]

Hey Hendrik, I'm back at home later today.  Anything you want me to test?

[RoderickGI]

I'll also note that the MCE remote Menu button did nothing at any time. Even with a Blu-ray that skipped the menu and played the title immediately, the menu button didn't cause any title selection dialogue to display.

I'm not sure if the MCE menu button is always automatically hooked up. Maybe you need to go into the remote control dialog and "learn" the button and map it to the "DVD Menu" functionality. I remember having done that in the past. I'm not sure why the menu button would be special though, that part is really not my area.

Just to confirm that my Harmony remote "Menu" button is now working, and is linked to the standard "DVD Menu" MCE function.

For some reason I had changed the Harmony configuration at some time, so that it used the Harmony "Menu" function. I remapped that back to the standard MCE "DVD Menu" in the Harmony software, rather than learning it in MC. Some brief testing shows that is doing what I expected.

Well done Nathan for doing all that testing. I still plan to do some real testing, but time, access to the HTPC when it isn't busy... You know.

[Hendrik]

Hey Hendrik, I'm back at home later today.  Anything you want me to test?

Nothing really new in 103 yet. The next build hopefully improves seeking, and I'm currently compiling information for madshi to help figure out the judder in interactive mode.

[jmone]

Thanks - any thoughts on the BD-J menus that are missing their menu options (eg they work but you can not see them)?

[Hendrik]

Not yet, will have to find a disc that shows such a problem.

On the OSD madVR "Judder", which rendering do you use? D3D9/11 FSE? D3D11 windowed? Can you test if that makes a difference for you?

[jmone]

OK - I'll check the judder info (but it is fine with the reduced queue levels).  I have plenty of discs with the missing info like:
- Inception
- '71

Do you also want any info on the discs that get "stuck" on the black screen 0:00 - Live ?

[jmone]

Judder Testing (used 13 Hours): set madVR back to default (using the batch file) - the tested the following configs:

1) Default Settings = Judder (D3D11 Full Screen Windowed, Queues are 16/8/8/8 then change to 16/8/8/2 in interactive mode at which point it Judders)

2) Default + Un-Check "Use Direct3D 11 for presentation" = No Judder (D3D9 Fullscreen windowed, Queues are 16/8/8/8 then change to 16/8/8/2 in interactive mode)

3) Default + Change GPU Queue Size to 4 = No Judder (D3D11 Full Screen Windowed, Queues are 16/4/4/4 then change to 16/4/4/2 in interactive mode)

[Hendrik]

Thanks, madshi will look at it for an upcoming version soon. Hopefully he can fix it!

[jmone]

  At least we have some recomendations for those that get judder that fix the issue while we wait.  The bigger issue to me are the following as it really stop playback.

Missing Items:  This one is also madVR related with missing BD-J menu items on some PC's with some combination of settings I've not yet worked out.  Seems fine with EVR.  I'll see if I can narrow it down to what combo in madVR stops these from being displayed correctly (any hints?)

Black Screen 0.00-Live Issue:  I've also got no further on working out what the common factor for this one is and why it happens on some PC's, not other, then works, then does not work....

Menu:  Also the Menu button for me now works but it is interesting it is not consistent with how some discs are authored.  Eg on most it just "works".  On "13 Hours" it does nothing ... but the Up/Down key brings up their popup menu.  Odd.  I'm still thinking that using the Menu button to bring up the MC OSD Menu (to which has then links to the BD Menu and BD Pop-up menu would unify the User experience as it would then be the same for all disc types).

[jmone]

madVR FSE:  Does weird things for me (I've not used it for years).  Like a black screen when it switches to FSE mode and when you Stop the video MC's UI is still covered with a frame from the video.  You have to close MC and MC Server / Restart to get the MC GUI back.  To me it is a low priority as I'm not sure many even use FSE much anymore???

[RoderickGI]

I'm still thinking that using the Menu button to bring up the MC OSD Menu (to which has then links to the BD Menu and BD Pop-up menu would unify the User experience as it would then be the same for all disc types).

I'm not so happy with this idea. I would like the Menu button to act just like it does on a BD Player. But I can see the merit as it gives us more flexibility. So I could accept it. I'm not sure that is possible anyway, given that the BD menu system is already in full control once a BD is playing.

However, I would only want it to work this way if something was already playing. If I insert a Blu-ray into my HTPC I have it set up not to play automatically. If I then pressed the Menu button I would like the BD to play and go to the BD menu. Basically, it would work the same as selecting the Blu-ray disc under the Theatre View video menu and selecting play, without the additional navigation steps.

[Hendrik]

Pressing the Menu key when nothing is playing will ask you if you want to play a disc currently in your drive - if its a DVD or Blu-ray. It has already done this before, fwiw. Once we figure out how to make a choice between menu and title playback, we could make that option always play in Menu mode, but thats for later.

[jmone]

It's good to toss around how this might work (but plenty of time for now as other things to work on).

It's more that it's going to be hard for a user to know if they should use Up Arrow, Menu, Side Arrow etc to access a setting from their RC as at present it can be different depending on disc type, menu type, how the disc is authored and if the enable menu option is selected.  Of all the nav keys, it seems that MC is able to see a "Menu" key press regardless of the above combination.  To me it therefore makes sense that this button is the key one to unify the Menu UI Experience.  Also - The function of the Menu button could be different between when media is playing, or not playing (but just in the ODD).  I also don't mind if it is some other key, as long as there is some way to make it consistent to bring up a menu.

[RoderickGI]

Yep, I skipped mentioning the "Do you want to play the {optical disc}" message. But that is what I would prefer, if the "Enable Blu-ray Menus" option is selected: Ask if I want to play, when I select yes, play the Blu-ray as if it was being played in a hardware Blu-ray player, which means all the warnings and rubbish, if present, are played, and then the Blu-ray menu is displayed.

If the "Enable Blu-ray Menus" option is not selected, then the title track of the Blu-ray would be played.

If a Blu-ray was being played, the menu button would return the user to the Blu-ray menu, possibly at a lower level menu such as an outtakes sub-menu, just like a real hardware player. I haven't actually used a Blu-ray or DVD hardware player in years and years, but from memory that is what they do. Depending on the optical disc authoring of course.

If the OSD up/down arrow could be used to access the Blu-ray menu or the title list, that would be my prefered method.

If you had to use the menu button while a disc was playing (either a title or the menu) to access the menu or title list, then I would accept that as it does provide more flexibility. But it would be inconsistent with a hardware Blu-ray player experience I think, so may cause transitional problems for users learning to play Blu-rays in MC.

Basically, the Menu button acts like a traditional hardware Blu-ray player, while the Up/Down Arrow OSD acts like the traditional MC OSD menus.
A user wants the Blu-ray Menu (at any time) they press the Menu button.
A user wants the title list in a playing Blu-ray, they press the up button, or if the Blu-ray menu system provides a title list, they press the menu button to get back to the Blu-ray menu, and then navigate to that title list.


It's always good to get the groundwork done on deciding what the endpoint will be, so that development isn't done that would lock out the best solution. Hence, I am sharing my current feelings.

[jmone]

The trouble I have is all my media is ripped to the server.  Most are BD Structures, some are Particles, some are M2TS, some are MKV etc etc.  When playing a video in TheaterView I don't really know what the source is (or care for that matter).  When I need to access the menu (it could be the BD-J, HDMV, MC OSD, DVD etc) I just want the consistency of being able to press the one button to access the menus.  It appears that of the Nav Keys, MC currently can see the "Menu" key press where as it can not always see an "Arrow" key press.

[jmone]

Back Screen 0:00 - Live : More logs and comments:

Log.txt:  This is one that appears to be stalled but it just not showing it's menu when using madVR (sample Transformers), looks and works fine in EVR but with madVR it is just a blackscreen.  The menu is working, and you can progress but you just can't see what you have selected.

Log2.txt: I can not see any error in the log but no luck with EVR or madVR.  Tried pressing keys etc but it did no progress as it did with the above (sample Breaking Bad S4 D3).

[RoderickGI]

Hmmm. Yeah I rip full BD structures at the moment, and may use MKV in future.

But if the BD has been ripped, regardless of format, you would be selecting the movie in MC, in which case Play or OK are the correct buttons to press, and if BD Menus are turned on and the rip contains a BD Menu, the BD Menu should display. Otherwise the ripped title would play. With an optical disc in the drive the Menu button would ask if it should be played.

Once playing MC should work as I described above if BD Menus are present. If the movie was just a title rip, what would you want the Menu button to do? I guess you may have an MKV file with multiple titles in it but no BD Menu. But in that case the Up/Down Arrow OSD seems logical. In other words, if you press Menu nothing happens, which means that there is no BD Menu, so press the Up Arrow.

I guess because you use Particles a lot you would have lots of titles in one file, and so would want to have the one button give quick access to the titles list. Plus if those situations where the Arrow keys can't be seen can't be resolved, which is yet to be confirmed once the fundamentals of BD Menus are sorted out, then I can see that the Menu button is potentially a universal way to access functions.

But my goto button when I want to make changes to playback while watching something is the Up Arrow button. I would like that to remain so if possible.

[jmone]

I'm talking about how to get to A Menu (either MC's or Disc Based) when the movie is playing (not how to start playback).  Eg, at present we have 2 ways of triggering a Menu (with BD Menu set to ON).  The following happen when you press the Up Arrow and Menu button:

BD-J
- Up Arrow = Nil (occasional it may trigger the disc Pop-up Menu)
- Menu = Disc based Menu (occasionally no menu appears and you have to use a Pop Up Menu by pressing Up Arrow)

BD HDMV
- Up Arrow = MC OSD Menu (already includes an option to run the BD Menu but not the PopUp Menu)
- Menu = Disc based Menu (if there is one, else it restarts the movie)

File:
- Up Arrow = MC OSD Menu
- Menu = Nil

DVD:
- Up Arrow = MC OSD Menu (already includes an option to run the DVD Menu)
- Menu = Disc based Menu

So the simple task of changing a subtitle at present is to press which button during playback?  I'm suggesting that we have ONE button that will always brings up A menu regardless of the media being played.  At present neither the Up Arrow or Menu button does this.

I personally think it should be the Menu button and that it triggers the MC OSD with the items displayed dependant on what the media is including an option for Launching the disc based DVD or BD Menus if appropriate, eg
- Exactly how the Up Arrow works now for both File, DVD, and HDMV but this does not work with BD-J (and also the popup option needs to be added)

Note: this is how the Right Click option already works (but this is of course not a TheaterView OSD).  With the right Click option you see the menu items that includes options for launching the DVD/BD Menus on structure rips and direct stream selection for Files.

[RoderickGI]

I understand.

But I look at your summary above and see just one (and a half) issues to resolve for a completely consistent user experience.

1.     Get the Up Arrow OSD working on BD-J rips and discs. If possible.
1.5   Get the popup working. This is the popup generated by the BD-J code, right? I need to try this on more discs. I rarely use it because it isn't obvious. Trigger it through the OSD?
1.51 The menu button does nothing when playing a file, which is logical to me as I don't expect MC to pop up a menu for a file, based on my user experience. I expect the OSD on Up Arrow though.

If 1. isn't possible I would concur with your preference. But it would either involve a change in the user experience, where the Up Arrow no longer bought up the OSD for any media type, or it would require that both the Up Arrow and the Menu button have the same response for DVDs and BD HDMV discs, with no response for files and BD-J media (mostly).

So either there will be an inconsistency or a large change in how MC works, with respect to the five-button control policy.

But my preference is that the Up Arrow MC OSD gives a user access to all functionality, including being able to launch the Disc Menu and Popup, while the Menu button always takes me to the Disc (DVD/BD) Menu, regardless of format, and does nothing for files since files they don't have menus. Of course, I'm including full folder rips of discs as discs, and maybe even ISO rips. Not sure about the latter as I don't use them currently, or plan to.


I guess our differing opinions are giving Hendrik and the team something to think about anyway. 

[jmone]

I think that is right.  I don't really care what button is used... just "1 button to rule them all" for menu activation regardless of file type.  I don't want to have use Up Arrow for some, Menu for other.

To me it makes sense to expand the use of the "Menu" button to always brings up A Menu regardless of what it is.  It would also work if the Menu button worked with file playback the same as the Up Arrow function is now (the OSD is a menu after all).  The big advantage of Up Arrow is it works with RC and KB that don't have a Menu Button.  The downside is it looks like BD-J grabs the arrow keys but maybe Hendrik can work around that.

Also, I'm not sure the Pop Up menu option is working that well yet or that most BD discs employ a pop-up menu at all.

[Hendrik]

Up Arrow should definitely be working to bring up the MC OSD even on BD-J discs, consider it a bug that it doesn't work, not as a fact that it never will. I might also add an option to open the popup menu (or at least tell the BD to, no guarantee that it has one) to the MC OSD. BD Menus are basically programmable logic, much of this is basically just forwarding user input to its logic, and then either it reacts or it doesn't. Thats both good and bad, I don't have to do anything, but I also cannot do anything.

In BD menu playback, the Menu key will still be useful however, because its up to the BD to interpret it - specifically when another Menu is already active and taking over the arrow keys - although from what I have seen, you can navigate around in them without it, you just lack the shortcut to return to the disc menu with one button press.

[jmone]

Thanks!  Here is the latest of my map of what button does what in what mode (highlighted areas are where the the function is not consistent).

[Hendrik]

I can also export chapter markers, I just wonder if MC is smart enough to refresh them when the title changes, or if I'll have to teach it...

[jmone]

All sounds good.  I was reading the libbluray api doco and saw that it did include the ability to skip fwd / back by chapter and it would be great to keep this function. 

I can confirm that Up Arrow at present does not work with BD-J to bring up the OSD (but on some discs will bring up the BD Pop Up Menu).  It would be good to add the BD Pop-up menu as an OSD option (like right click) but.... How many disc even have this?  I would have thought most but I've only seen a couple so far (so I'm not sure if it is working correctly in MC).

[jmone]

Another Q - are UltraHD BD-J menus different in some way?

[Hendrik]

Sort of. Its not fundamentally different, but since BD-J discs basically run a Java program, they also expect a certain interface to talk to the player, and that was extended for UHD. I don't have UHD Blu-ray specifications, and on the libbluray side there also hasn't been much movement for UHD BD-J yet, so we'll just have to be patient.

In other news, I implemented a work-around for the "BD-J Menu Always On" issue, with threads and SSE2 and all the bells and whistles (because it basically just checks the image if its fully transparent). Unfortunately, you may need to wait a while before a new version for testing will be available.

[jmone]

Thanks - if there is anything you want tested this weekend?

[SamuriHL]

Yikes how did I miss this topic??  Ok, I got some testing to do it seems.