Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Matt]

Media Center now fully supports the HDCD standard.

It can analyze whether a file is HDCD with the Audio Analyzer.  Then it can use the HDCD tag during playback to expand the bitdepth.

Some seemingly ordinary CD's also have HDCD capabilities when played with certain hardware or software.  The files ripped from these CD's also have the HDCD information, so there is no need to re-rip.

By default the HDCD field will be set to -1.  This means the file has not yet been analyzed.  After it gets analyzed, the value will be 0 (no HDCD) or 1 (has HDCD).

MC will report that it's decoding the HDCD in the Audio Path of Media Center if it is engaged:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Path


Instructions
The analyzer will not analyze HDCD by default (starting with build 71), so you need to opt-in here if you want it to:
Options > Library & Folders > Analyze for HDCD

The program will also automatically tag lossy files and files that are not 44,100x16x2 as not HDCD (with the latest build).

You can turn HDCD processing off if you prefer in Options > Audio > Advanced > Play as HDCD if possible


More
There's more about HDCD here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Definition_Compatible_Digital

[JimH]

Previous thread

[michael123]

Nice

I checked few times the date/time of the thread,

Should we do anything now to see HDCD?
How can I see how many HDCD I have?

[mojave]

Should we do anything now to see HDCD?  How can I see how many HDCD I have?

You need to select your files and run the Audio Analyzer on them. Once this is done, the HDCD tag will have a "1" for all HDCD files. You can then create a View to show just HDCD files or use the Search Wizard to show them. The bottom of the View will show how many files are in that View.

[YuraF]

I personally think that HDCD containing files with their 18 bits (if all necessary HDCD tags are involved) sound a bit better than ordinary 44.1k16 data. in my library there are two comparable entries, namely Mark Knopfler's Sailing to Philadelphia in HDCD and in 48k24. It seems that both digital copies were made from a very well mastered analog tape. So my pearsonal opinion on the three version of the album is - CD sounds plainly lacking microdetails especailly in high frequencies, HDCD sounds better adding microdetails and "air", hi-res 48k24 sounds fantastic giving a full perception in both dynamic range and microdetails.

But if you have an HDCD version only, compared with ordinary CD, it sounds better and it's good to have an option to decode HDCD in the JRiver player.

[JimH]

This requires MC 25.0.70 or higher.

[d_pert]

This is very cool. Leave it to JRiver!

However ... let's say one has a HUGE library of lossless 16-bit rips, which may well include HDCDs, and where the jewel cases / liner notes have long ago been lost or discarded:

The only way to find out what files are HDCD would be to re-run Audio Analysis on everything, correct?

If that is the case, I'd be analyzing possibly up to four (4) terabytes over days/weeks.

As well, the vast majority of non-HDCD files would be re-tagged with the new (assumedly identical) loudness (etc.) tags, correct?

In that case -- in my case -- I'd be mirroring over my LAN and backing up the whole kittenkabootle and re-importing/updating zillions of files (which could take days on one dedicated tablet-based setup.

Is there some way JRiver can enhance the Analyze Audio function to:

-Only update tag(s) if the new audio analysis shows any variation from the pre-existing analysis?

AND/OR

-Only perform audio analysis IF file is detected as HDCD?

AND/OR

-Only perform HDCD detection, and issue a report/list of findings?

Thank you.

[Vocalpoint]

The only way to find out what files are HDCD would be to re-run Audio Analysis on everything, correct?

I too have no desire to re-analyze my entire library.

I am hoping there is a option to disable both the detection and usage of HDCD.

Considering there is probably less than 1000 titles in the wild:

https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=List_of_HDCD-encoded_Compact_Discs

this is not worth the effort especially if one already knows they have no HDCD rips in the library (Like me)

VP

[dtc]

I too have no desire to re-analyze my entire library.

I am hoping there is a option to disable both the detection and usage of HDCD.

VP

As of .65 you can disable HDCD on playback.

Unfortunately, HDCD detection is part of Analyze Audio and there is no way to do the R128/volume leveling calculations without also doing the HDCD detection, even though the two analyses are completely unrelated.

[Matt]

Just set the HDCD field to 0 and it won't analyze.  Turn off tag writing for the HDCD field if that bothers you.

[Vocalpoint]

Just set the HDCD field to 0 and it won't analyze.  Turn off tag writing for the HDCD field if that bothers you.

Matt,

Appreciate the input - sounds like a good plan.

VP

[Awesome Donkey]

Turn off tag writing for the HDCD field if that bothers you.

Wait, how? Unchecking save in tag files (when possible)? I've done that and I also cleared out the acceptable values. Hopefully that works.

BTW, as a test I did try it out on a few albums I know for sure are HDCD, and at least with one of them analysis determined most of the album wasn't HDCD, even though (in theory) it is. The album in question I tested was Beck's Mutations and only a couple of the songs registered as being HDCD.

Other than that, I'll have to see what happens when I manually run audio analysis. Being able to disable the HDCD analysis on the entire library when running auto-import is the 'issue' here. Personally, I can't allow it to run on my library of over 108,000 files due to how my file backup system works because I'd either have to run the process three times or delete all files on my backup + NAS and re-add them... and that'd take me up to a week to get all of it 'fixed' for no real gain.

EDIT: Okay, that works. I can prevent HDCD tags from being added when importing new files to the library then manually running audio analysis on those new files. I probably have to keep auto audio analysis when running auto-import off, and just do it manually from now on. Groovy.

[DJLegba]

Wait, how? Unchecking save in tag files (when possible)? I've done that and I also cleared out the acceptable values.

BTW, I did try it out on a few albums I know for sure are HDCD, and at least with one of them analysis determined most of the album wasn't HDCD, even though (in theory) it is. The album in question I tested was Beck's Mutations.

Mutations analysed as HDCD in my collection.

When I installed a version of MC that incorrectly triggered the HD code when HDCD = -1 I selected all 28,000 files with HDCD = -1 and changed the value to 0. I can't remember exactly how long it took, but it was less than 10 minutes. Today after installing 25.0.66 I was surprised to find that I have 13 HDCD albums.

[Awesome Donkey]

Mutations analysed as HDCD in my collection.

When I installed a version of MC that incorrectly triggered the HD code when HDCD = -1 I selected all 28,000 files with HDCD = -1 and changed the value to 0. I can't remember exactly how long it took, but it was less than 10 minutes. Today after installing 25.0.66 I was surprised to find that I have 13 HDCD albums.

Hmmm, strange. I wonder why other songs weren't detected as HDCD? I probably should've re-ripped it when I was testing the analysis - I do know I own at least two HDCDs (though I already have decoded versions of both in my library that I did a year or so ago when I ripped them with dBpoweramp and their HDCD feature).

[DJLegba]

Hmmm, strange. I wonder why other songs weren't detected as HDCD? I probably should've re-ripped it when I was testing the analysis - I do know I own at least two HDCDs (though I already have decoded versions of both in my library that I did a year or so ago when I ripped them with dBpoweramp and their HDCD feature).

I ripped it with dBpoweramp in February of 2016.

[mattkhan]

. And for new adds - I will set HDCD to zero on import.

Is that necessary? I thought the current problem was the fact it was reanalysing files but that the analysis itself was no more work, i.e. for a genuinely new file then this change makes no difference (unless it actually is an hdcd)

Is this wrong?

[Hendrik]

Is that necessary? I thought the current problem was the fact it was reanalysing files but that the analysis itself was no more work, i.e. for a genuinely new file then this change makes no difference (unless it actually is an hdcd)

Is this wrong?

Any work is some work, but the overall speed difference in analysis should be minimal.

[JimH]

We're not going to make more changes at this time.  If, after it's been in use a while, there are problems, we'll revisit the subject.

[ajw1997]

Hello,
I've tried running "Analyze Audio' on a previously ripped album I know is HDCD.
This was ripped a long time ago in iTunes (as lossless AIFF).
This doesn't seem to create a '1' in the HDCD field.
Could it be that the statement 'The files ripped from these CD's also have the HDCD information, so there is no need to re-rip.' is only valid if recently ripped in JRiver?
And that I can't 'override' by simply changing the HDCD tag to = 1? Or at least it won't make any difference to the sound.

I'll need to rummage around in my garage to find the original disc to try re-ripping in JRiver.

Regards,

Andrew

[Mike Foran]

Question: How difficult would it be to detect HDCD files at playback? How much of the file does Media Center need to analyze to determine HDCD content? Is it feasible to do it automatically at the time a song is queued up?

[dtc]

Hello,
I've tried running "Analyze Audio' on a previously ripped album I know is HDCD.
This was ripped a long time ago in iTunes (as lossless AIFF).
This doesn't seem to create a '1' in the HDCD field.
Could it be that the statement 'The files ripped from these CD's also have the HDCD information, so there is no need to re-rip.' is only valid if recently ripped in JRiver?
And that I can't 'override' by simply changing the HDCD tag to = 1? Or at least it won't make any difference to the sound.

I'll need to rummage around in my garage to find the original disc to try re-ripping in JRiver.

Regards,

Andrew

Previously ripped HDCD files even from other rippers should evaluate to HDCD files, as long as the file was ripped in bit perfect form. A recent rip using MC is not required. However, it is possible the original iTunes rip was not bit perfect for some reason or that something happened to the file over time, like it was normalized for some reason.

You can change the tag to 1 and the HDCD decoder will be engaged on playback. You can confirm that in Audio Path. No harm if the file is indeed not HDCD, except you will not get the potential advantage of HDCD.

Try a re-rip to be sure.

[Matt]

We're talking about making lossy files not analyze since they would never be HDCD.  Still talking, but it will probably happen.

[dtc]

We're talking about making lossy files not analyze since they would never be HDCD.  Still talking, but it will probably happen.

Makes sense.

[Ternaugh]

Previously ripped HDCD files even from other rippers should evaluate to HDCD files, as long as the file was ripped in bit perfect form. A recent rip using MC is not required. However, it is possible the original iTunes rip was not bit perfect for some reason or that something happened to the file over time, like it was normalized for some reason.

You can change the tag to 1 and the HDCD decoder will be engaged on playback. You can confirm that in Audio Path. No harm if the file is indeed not HDCD, except you will not get the potential advantage of HDCD.

Try a re-rip to be sure.

On a different front, dBpoweramp CD Ripper has the ability to process an HDCD-encoded disc, producing a padded 24-bit file that's already decoded. These will detect as HDCD by MC, but will give the message, "Process HDCD enabled, but bitdepth wrong" in the Audio Path during playback (and, I'm guessing, it's just presenting the file as-is instead of running it through HDCD decode).

[~OHM~]

Wait, how? Unchecking save in tag files (when possible)? I've done that and I also cleared out the acceptable values. Hopefully that works.

BTW, as a test I did try it out on a few albums I know for sure are HDCD, and at least with one of them analysis determined most of the album wasn't HDCD, even though (in theory) it is. The album in question I tested was Beck's Mutations and only a couple of the songs registered as being HDCD.

Other than that, I'll have to see what happens when I manually run audio analysis. Being able to disable the HDCD analysis on the entire library when running auto-import is the 'issue' here. Personally, I can't allow it to run on my library of over 108,000 files due to how my file backup system works because I'd either have to run the process three times or delete all files on my backup + NAS and re-add them... and that'd take me up to a week to get all of it 'fixed' for no real gain.

EDIT: Okay, that works. I can prevent HDCD tags from being added when importing new files to the library then manually running audio analysis on those new files. I probably have to keep auto audio analysis when running auto-import off, and just do it manually from now on. Groovy.

How is this done? Please! I have 426230 files and not one is HDCD....this would take me weeks and probably fry my pc....then as AD says the backups, I have 3...please help me stop this. Or I will need to go back to .54

[BryanC]

How is this done? Please! I have 426230 files and not one is HDCD....this would take me weeks and probably fry my pc....then as AD says the backups, I have 3...please help me stop this. Or I will need to go back to .54

1. Uncheck  Settings>Library & Folders>Manage Library Fields>HDCD>"Save in file tags (when possible)"
2. Change HDCD value to 0 for all tracks in tag editor
3. Disable "Process HDCD" in Settings>Audio>Advanced

[~OHM~]

BryanC

Thank You Thank You Thank You

Patrick

[dtc]

On a different front, dBpoweramp CD Ripper has the ability to process an HDCD-encoded disc, producing a padded 24-bit file that's already decoded. These will detect as HDCD by MC, but will give the message, "Process HDCD enabled, but bitdepth wrong" in the Audio Path during playback (and, I'm guessing, it's just presenting the file as-is instead of running it through HDCD decode).

Once dBpoweramp decodes the HDCD and expands a track to 24 bits, it no longer has the HDCD encoding in it. My guess is that a marker for HDCD is still in the file, even though the actual encoding is no longer present.   The playback mechanism should recognize that the file is 24 bit and not enable the decoder.

[Matt]

Coming next build:
Changed: When the program loads, it will go through HDCD files and mark lossy files as not HDCD and files that aren't 44100x16x2 as not HDCD.

Hopefully this lessens some of the analysis burden for people.

[dtc]

Should it perhaps also mark files that  are not 16/44 as non HDCD?

There is the issue above as to whether a previously decoded file should be tagged as HDCD or not.  So maybe 24/44 should be scanned. But there is no reason to scan 24/96 and above or DSD files.

[Matt]

Should it perhaps also mark files that  are not 16/44 as non HDCD?

I think I updated my post as you were typing this.  I made that change also.

[dtc]

 

[contium]

I have some Audio Fidelity HDCD's that come up 0 when analyzed.

[ajw1997]

Hi,
I have re-ripped the disc that is 'supposed' to be HDCD - The Thin Red Line Soundtrack.
And also a Reference Recordings SACD (CD layer) - Elgar, Enigma Variations.
Analyse audio is set to run at rip.  I'm ripping to AIFF.
In both instances HDCD is not detected.
And I have reanalysed.
The HDCD on The Thin Red Line is detected on my Oppo player.
I'm using JRiver 25.0.66 64 Bit Windows.
Is something not working correctly? 

Regards,

Andrew

[dtc]

Can you play the rip in MC with the decoding turned off  to the Oppo or another HDCD capable DAC? That would tell you if the HDCD bits are in the file you ripped.

[JimH]

Try ripping to FLAC.

[stewart_pk]

Audio Analysis for TOOL - Lateralus is only detecting the first track (The Grudge) as HDCD.

[Matt]

I updated the top post, but just a note that we will no longer analyze HDCD by default with the next build.

You will have to opt-in here:
Options > Library & Folders > Analyze for HDCD

Thanks for the feedback.

[Vocalpoint]

I updated the top post, but just a note that we will no longer analyze HDCD by default with the next build.

You will have to opt-in here:
Options > Library & Folders > Analyze for HDCD

Thanks for the feedback.

Perfect!

VP

[dtc]

I updated the top post, but just a note that we will no longer analyze HDCD by default with the next build.

You will have to opt-in here:
Options > Library & Folders > Analyze for HDCD

Thanks for the feedback.

Does this apply just to auto import or to manual runs of auto analyze also?

[BigSpider]

Thank you all, I have found six albums which are HDCD which I was completley unaware of - ok it took a bit of time but having set all mp3, dsf and 24 bit to zero it wasn't so long and I now have some very improved auditory experiences. So - Thank you very much.

[Matt]

New build with all the changes mentioned here:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,121242.0.html

Thanks for all the feedback.

[stewart_pk]

New build with all the changes mentioned here:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,121242.0.html

Thanks for all the feedback.

No change with this new build.

Audio Analysis for TOOL - Lateralus is only detecting the first track (The Grudge) as HDCD.

[Matt]

This build no longer tags when it marks a file as not HDCD:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,121259.0.html

[imeric]

OK so I ran (well still running) the Audio Analysis tool, found a few HDCD files, MC tells me it's processing the file as HDCD but how do I know what bit depth is being output to my DAC (ADL Stratos in this case)?

Why do I not get the "Bit Perfect" Sign?
See pic attached.
thx

[Matt]

Next build:
Changed: The blue light will illuminate when decoding HDCD (previously that would cause the light to disengage).

[imeric]

Some interesting reads here on HDCD: https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=High_Definition_Compatible_Digital

Especially on the Scam Part...This is why it would be interesting to know what MC is doing when processing as HDCD if it was encoded as such...There's also a list of HDCD encoded CDs there as well..

And thx Matt for the blue light.

[dtc]

MC uses the same HDCD software decoder as foobar, which is pretty well documented. It is based on a decompilation of the Microsoft HDCD software.  Microsoft bought HDCD from Pacific Microsonics so their software code was probably pretty close in function if not exactly what was in the original chips, with one caveat. HDCD uses two main techniques - Peak Extension and Low Level Gain Adjustment. . Peak Extension allows the dynamic range to be increased by up t 6 dB.  Low Level Gain Adjusment allows low level signals to be temporarily increased so as to not be lost in the noise floor. Decoding undoes the boost HDCD also had an option to use one of two transient filters, although there is evidence that only one was ever used.  Both of those are implemented in the software decoders. The people who developed the software decoder based on the decompilation decided that the filters were not all that important and did not implement them.  So, I should presume that the MC implementation does Peak Extension and Low Level Gain Adjustment and not the filters.

HA’s statement that HDCD is a scam typical of HA. They think that many techniques that the audiophile community users are scams.

Many CDs  have HDCD markers but do not implement Peak Extension and Low Level Gain Adjustments. That is because many engineers used Pacific Microsonic A-D/D-A converters (PM Model One and PM Model Two) because they were extremely good units, well ahead of the competition at the time.  They are still coveted today.  The converters did put a marker in the files even if none of the HDCD techniques were used. That was not a scam, since those CDs were not marketed as HDCDs.   

According to one of Matt's post, in detecting HDCD he added a check to be sure that actual changes were made, so that a simple marker would not be detected as a HDCD.

Reference Recordings was the last company that I know of doing HDCDs. They did them up to a few years ago, but I am not sure I they are still making them. One of the principles at RR was part of the Pacific Microsonics team.

The HA list of HDCDs is quite incomplete. A more comprehensive list is on Goodwin’s website, although it does not list if HDCD code is actually used in the recordings. That website also has a more neutral writeup on the intent and the implementation of HDCD.

http://www.goodwinshighend.com/hdcd.htm

If you want more detail of the foobar development, I can dig up those references. EDIT - Added below.

EDIT : Here is a link to the original AS paper on HDCD if you want to get into the gory detail.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020124220637/www.hdcd.com/partners/proaudio/AES_Paper.pdf

EDIT: If you want to read the early discussions of the software decoders, take at look at these forum threads.

https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,30999.0.html

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=129136

cjk32 on the doom9 thread is Christopher Key, the guy who got this started and did most of the early work on this.

[rsg]

Wow! This is a truly great additional feature. To test it out, I analyzed all my Neil Young albums (a logical place to start, I thought). It came up with 29 albums in HDCD (I am counting multi-CD albums as individual albums because that's the way MC seems to count them (for example, the 8-CD Archives collection)). So that's 29 out of 63. Interestingly, the 2009 remaster of After the Gold Rush is not included as HDCD. Maybe the 2009 remaster is not HDCD, but earlier versions might have been. I must dig around in my CDs to see if I have an older one. Not doing any A-B blind comparisons or anything to test out the sound differences, but, hey, these are albums that I thought "Well, they are HDCD according to the CD packaging, but I'll never get to hear the difference because I am not getting an HDCD/SACD player."

[rsg]

And maybe anyone interested should try The Cars The Cars and Candy-O ........