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[davelr]

More bits is more better.
10-bit carries more details then the default 8-bit. But its only meaningful if your display can actually receive and properly process 10-bit signals, and can be detrimental if turned on when your display is not capable of this, hence it being an advanced option.

Thanks Hendrick, I get the bit depth issue. My ignorance is related to HDR in that I'm just starting to play with it. I guess my question is what is the setting meant to actually do? Is it supposed to turn on OS HDR for an SDR source? When I've set it I can't tell that anything changes. I'm running Radeon Vega 11 graphics set at 10 bit through a Denon 4400 to an LG OLED B7. When I play a sample HDR file OS HDR gets turned on but I can't see anything happening with an SDR source. Please forgive if a stupid question.

[Hendrik]

No, its not supposed to be noticeable. To make use of it, you would have to have your graphics card set to output 10-bit (or higher), and when 10-bit output is on and you go fullscreen, it would automatically make use of it without any notice.
You might be able to see it by comparing 10-bit gradient images, but at 8-bit we use high quality dithering, so it might only show up in a slight reduction in noise.

The reason its an option is that we don't know if your graphics card is set to output 10-bit, or if your screen will properly accept and process it. Until we can figure that out (which might be never), it has to be an option.

[davelr]

...

The reason its an option is that we don't know if your graphics card is set to output 10-bit, or if your screen will properly accept and process it. Until we can figure that out (which might be never), it has to be an option.

Got it, thanks for clearing it up for me.

[Ashfall]

No, its not supposed to be noticeable. To make use of it, you would have to have your graphics card set to output 10-bit (or higher), and when 10-bit output is on and you go fullscreen, it would automatically make use of it without any notice.
You might be able to see it by comparing 10-bit gradient images, but at 8-bit we use high quality dithering, so it might only show up in a slight reduction in noise.

The reason its an option is that we don't know if your graphics card is set to output 10-bit, or if your screen will properly accept and process it. Until we can figure that out (which might be never), it has to be an option.

For those of us who have an HDMI 2.0 graphics card drivers set to output 10-bit or 12-bit to the display, this is limited to lower framerates.  50/60 fps and the graphics card outputs 8 bit.  24/25 fps and the video driver changes back to 10-bit or 12-bit.  I have MadVR configured with profile rules so that fps determines whether it outputs 8-bit or 10-bit to the video driver to match the HDMI 2.0 constraints.  This way I get 10 bit from MadVR all the way to the display for SDR 24/25 fps sources.  Will JRVR have something similar?

[JimH]

Nice summary of power usage by syndromeofdawn:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,130954.msg910945.html#msg910945

Thanks!

[park]

I may be being silly, but i am playing some 4k hdr bluray rips (Justice league snyder cut, lord of the rings) with HDR passthrough turned on, and when I press CTRL+J the summary shows that the input is uhd and the output is 1920x1080. I have my display settings set to uhd@24hz for 24 fps video.

My signal path is:
Nvidia 3070 HDMI (desktop set to uhd, with 10bit output turned on in nvidia control panel) > Denon 2700 (passthrough mode) > Sony 9000f 4K HDR TV (set to cinema pro preset)

If I press "info" on my Denon it says that the input is UHD Bt.2020 and so is the output it is sending to the TV. The TV also reports its getting a HDR signal.
So is JRVR summary wrong possibly?

[Hendrik]

The OSD is likely not wrong. One reason for that happening is if the OS is scaling MC, instead of MC being rendered at full resolution. This might happen if you have multiple displays connected, and only one is UHD - you can potentially resolve that by making the UHD one the primary display. Or it can happen if you use display settings to change resolution while MC is already running, we would recommend to only change refresh rate.

[jmone]

I have my display settings set to uhd@24hz for 24 fps video.

I only have a few true 24fps videos (from some smaller EU mastering houses), most are 23.976fps.

Do you have display setting for Film (23.976) set to 3840 x 2160 - 32 Bit @ 23 Hz ?

[park]

Thanks for the replies.
I have tried making the TV the primary display and turning scaling to 100% and turning on the HDR output in windows display settings. Now i get UHD output but a garbled ghosted image on the screen. I will try switching out the cables.

[narbi]

I just noticed that using JRVR my TV remains in 60Hz all the time, despite display settings configured.
Probably because my movies do not have the FPS tag.

Would it be possible for JRVR to detect the framerate like madvr does, and trigger auto switching without manually tagging the files ?

[Hendrik]

Would it be possible for JRVR to detect the framerate like madvr does, and trigger auto switching without manually tagging the files ?

The entire concept of switching is independent of the video renderer in MC, as it happens before the video is even opened, so we have to rely on the database to have an FPS value. This likely will not change, as switching the mode while playback is starting up is error-prone, which is the reason we do it before even touching the file.

If this is live TV, those stations typically have a consistent frame rate through their entire lifetime (eg. EU TV should always be 25 or 50, US TV always 30 or 60), so they could be tagged with that. If its recorded TV, those files should ideally also be tagged. Either of those would probably be good to ask Yaobing on, maybe make a new thread on the TV forums. In any other case, equally, tagging should generally be possible.

[jmone]

It sounds odd that you don't have FPS values.  The only ones I don't get FPS values for when importing are those stored as an ISO (recorded TV shows all have their FPS populated).  You could try selecting some and Right Click --> update Library from Tags that will do a reanalysis. 

[narbi]

It seems some of my ripped BD didn't have the tag, but most of them have it.
I'll have to chase the outliers then.

[ppataki]

Unfortunately the frame drop is still there when displaying subtitles, are there any plans to fix this issue please?
Thank you

[Hendrik]

Unfortunately the frame drop is still there when displaying subtitles, are there any plans to fix this issue please?

As I already confirmed the last time, yes there are plans, but its a bigger change and won't happen very soon.

[datdude]

One feature I'd like to see added from madvr is the frame blending 'motion smoothing' feature: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/MadVR_Expert_Guide#:~:text=Smooth%20Motion%20is%20a%20recently,TVs%2C%20or%20reduce%2024p%20judder.

While I get that most would keep this off and instead change the display to match the frame rate, I find that it looks great when running movies at 60hz since you don't get the stutter from fast response OLEDs at 24hz. It does look a little softer due to the blending, but I'd trade that for vibrating stutter or for weird motion interpolation artifacts. It kind of reminds me of what movies looked like on plasma, before instant response OLEDs.

Plus, because it doesn't have to switch the display and stays at 60hz my AVR displays the picture sooner and doesn't show the 'no signal' message at start of playback or after stopping.

[Hendrik]

Its not a primary feature currently planned, but maybe something we can do in the future.

[terrym@tassie]

I really like the new scaling features introduced in 28.0.92 but it raises the question of tuning the renderer for particular video types. This can be done in madVR by using the 'profiles' feature.
For example at the moment I can use FSRCNNX16 for 1080p23 -> 2160p23 (which looks fantastic) with my lowly GTX1060OC card but it needs to drop back to RAVU for 576i/1080i/720p50 content.

Any chance of implementing per zone settings for JRVR?

[JimH]

Any chance of implementing per zone settings for JRVR?

It may already work.  Video settings can be different for each zone.

[terrym@tassie]

It may already work.  Video settings can be different for each zone.

You can only change the video render type at the moment, eg madVR in one zone, JRVR in another. The settings for JRVR are the same for any zone it is active in.

[Hendrik]

Any chance of implementing per zone settings for JRVR?

I've purposefully not chosen zones to do this, because zones do not have all the required information, or the ability to switch on the fly (and are a big all-or-nothing approach, which isn't always ideal).
There will likely be some kind of profile system to do such per-content tuning in the future, but we'll need to figure out how that will look and remain simple to use.

[lello]

I only use JRiver to watch movies, but today I wanted to try watching TV again.

I have found that it is not possible to use JRVR: does something have to be configured? Still not expected?

[Hendrik]

TV should work with JRVR as far as I know. Best to inquire with Yaobing on the TV forums if its not working, I suppose.

[jmone]

FYI - JRVR is working in TV but Ctrl+J does not

[tgp7777777]

Hi,

I've been using JRVR for a couple of weeks now and I'm very pleased with it, thank you. An issue I've noticed with the Superres function is that I get momentary sound cut-outs on a frequent, periodic basis. This goes away if I remove the function. I'm running on a 2060 NUC. I've tried to establish the pattern of occurrence but I can't be definite. It seems to happen at the same part of the movie each time but I can't be definitive about that. I also can't really say if a video glitch also happens at the same time, which is possible but the sound cut-out is the noticeable effect.

Just looking for any comments, pointers, observations on this. Nobody else seems to be having this so I suspect it's only specific to my setup. I'm just leaving it off for now.

 (periodic =- every 10-40 seconds)

[Hendrik]

Sounds like you might be running into performance issues. If you use VideoClock and the rendering is too slow, it can impact the audio, as the VideoClock information gets skewed.

[tgp7777777]

Sounds like you might be running into performance issues. If you use VideoClock and the rendering is too slow, it can impact the audio, as the VideoClock information gets skewed.

I tried it with Videoclock mainly off as I thought it might be an issue. GPU runs at about 25% during playback.

[tgp7777777]

Sounds like you might be running into performance issues. If you use VideoClock and the rendering is too slow, it can impact the audio, as the VideoClock information gets skewed.

Should Superres evn be doing anything if I'm playing a 4k video to a 4k display? Isn't it just for upscaling?

[Hendrik]

Should Superres evn be doing anything if I'm playing a 4k video to a 4k display? Isn't it just for upscaling?

Yes, its only for upscaling. It won't be active at all then, no matter the option.

[tgp7777777]

Yes, its only for upscaling. It won't be active at all then, no matter the option.

Which makes it weird that it causes any glitches at all.

[jmone]

Any thoughts on SDR to HDR tonemapping?

[park]

I may be being silly, but i am playing some 4k hdr bluray rips (Justice league snyder cut, lord of the rings) with HDR passthrough turned on, and when I press CTRL+J the summary shows that the input is uhd and the output is 1920x1080. I have my display settings set to uhd@24hz for 24 fps video.

My signal path is:
Nvidia 3070 HDMI (desktop set to uhd, with 10bit output turned on in nvidia control panel) > Denon 2700 (passthrough mode) > Sony 9000f 4K HDR TV (set to cinema pro preset)

If I press "info" on my Denon it says that the input is UHD Bt.2020 and so is the output it is sending to the TV. The TV also reports its getting a HDR signal.
So is JRVR summary wrong possibly?

To cap this post, I fixed most of my issues by buying a new DP1.4>HDMI2 cable. I also changed the TV to being the main display and i was able to get good UHD@24hz bt.2020 output.

jmone did mention changing the output to 23fps but that didnt work in JRVR for me. When i set it to output UHD 23fps for 23.97 source material, MC would actually output at UHD@60hz.

Now I do notice that many of my movies have some pretty bad compression/macroblocking issues. I guess that madVR was smoothing a lot of that out for me before. I have turned on the "smooth compression artifacts" feature on my tv for now.

[Manni]

Very excited to see this new renderer, madVR has stopped working reliably on my HTPC for me since I moved to the 3090 and as a result I've stopped using the HTPC as a source, given that sadly madshi doens't have the time to support madVR currently.

I have a suggestion though, as it would clearly take quite a bit of time before JRVR can catch up with some of the features that are needed when integrating into a home cinema (black bar detection, 3D LUTs calibration, sending BT2020 flag with nVidia, profiles, etc).

Would it be possible to get a "source direct" mode in JRVR that would send the least processed version of the content? Unlikely you can send 4:2:0 for all content at all frame rates due to drivers limitations, but could you try to send 4:2:2 and the native resolution, SDR or HDR passthrough, without any processing/upscaling?

That way those of us with an external video processor (Lumagen Radiance, madVR Envy) could use the HTPC as a source and do all the processing/calibration using the external VP?

The main difficulty you're going to hit re calibration is finding a way to get calibration software to support your own pattern generation (similar to madTPG). However, if you could use the same 3D LUT format (eecolor), that would definitely help as LUTs generated with madVR or Envy could be used with JRVR.

[ppataki]

Just would like to inquire if anybody has any experience running JRVR 4K HDR passthrough using an AMD Ryzen 5 5600G or Ryzen 7 5700G? (with no additional GPU)
Would these processors be adequate enough to do that?
Many thanks

[Hendrik]

Would it be possible to get a "source direct" mode in JRVR that would send the least processed version of the content? Unlikely you can send 4:2:0 for all content at all frame rates due to drivers limitations, but could you try to send 4:2:2 and the native resolution, SDR or HDR passthrough, without any processing/upscaling?

PCs are not capable of that. Its all RGB all the time.

[JimH]

Just would like to inquire if anybody has any experience running JRVR 4K HDR passthrough using an AMD Ryzen 5 5600G or Ryzen 7 5700G? (with no additional GPU)
Would these processors be adequate enough to do that?
Many thanks

This thread on testing might give you a better idea:  https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,130905.msg907418.html#msg907418

[JimH]

Very excited to see this new renderer, madVR has stopped working reliably on my HTPC for me since I moved to the 3090 and as a result I've stopped using the HTPC as a source, given that sadly madshi doens't have the time to support madVR currently.

I have a suggestion though, as it would clearly take quite a bit of time before JRVR can catch up with some of the features that are needed when integrating into a home cinema (black bar detection, 3D LUTs calibration, sending BT2020 flag with nVidia, profiles, etc).

Would it be possible to get a "source direct" mode in JRVR that would send the least processed version of the content? Unlikely you can send 4:2:0 for all content at all frame rates due to drivers limitations, but could you try to send 4:2:2 and the native resolution, SDR or HDR passthrough, without any processing/upscaling?

That way those of us with an external video processor (Lumagen Radiance, madVR Envy) could use the HTPC as a source and do all the processing/calibration using the external VP?

The main difficulty you're going to hit re calibration is finding a way to get calibration software to support your own pattern generation (similar to madTPG). However, if you could use the same 3D LUT format (eecolor), that would definitely help as LUTs generated with madVR or Envy could be used with JRVR.

Have you tried JRVR yet?

[Manni]

PCs are not capable of that. Its all RGB all the time.

Well, last time I looked I could select YCC 4:2:2 in my nVidia driver...

Anyway, if source direct isn't possible, I hope you're going to catch up quickly re all the missing features, because currently JRVR isn't an option for home cinema integration, there are too many features missing from madVR.

[Manni]

Have you tried JRVR yet?

No because there are too many missing features for my needs, but I hope I'll be able to at some point. I'll give it a try as soon as I find the time, I have only recently upgraded to MC28 as I had no time to spend on HC duties recently because of work overload...

[JimH]

Well, last time I looked I could select YCC 4:2:2 in my nVidia driver...

Anyway, if source direct isn't possible, I hope you're going to catch up quickly re all the missing features, because currently JRVR isn't an option for home cinema integration, there are too many features missing from madVR.

We have no plans to rebuild madVR with all its features.  We're aiming at high quality, cross platform, ease of use, and efficiency (works on more computers).

Did you try it? 

[mattkhan]

There isn't much point trying it for the sort of setup manni is referring to because it is missing too many features that are part of the required feature set. They aren't nice to haves.

A number of them are listed in the relevant thread https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,131214.0.html

I also hope you take the steps required to make it useable in those situations

[Hendrik]

As for CIH/CIW setups, I have said this before, but we already support all "zoom control" features of madVR required for this, except automatic black bar detection, which is not something currently planned.
That includes cropping, of black bars or otherwise, aspect ratio overrides if needed, and image size settings.

Unfortunately everyone that has asked for this before has not come back with actual test results if this functionality works for them - assuming they set up the black-bar cropping on a per-movie basis - which could be automated later by an offline process (ie. analysing the video and storing in the database, and not doing it at runtime which is extremely performance heavy as madVR does it on the CPU, preventing use of optimized hardware decoding)

Otherwise, features for niche setups will come last, since they benefit the least people. And not every niche feature will be re-created or niche use-case covered.

[mattkhan]

As for CIH/CIW setups, I have said this before, but we already support all "zoom control" features of madVR required for this, except automatic black bar detection, which is not something currently planned.
That includes cropping, of black bars or otherwise, aspect ratio overrides if needed, and image size settings.

I was under the impression the custom stretch part was not supported

feedback in https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,130905.msg911868.html#msg911868

[ppataki]

Just would like to report some good news: subtitle frame dropping seems to be resolved, at least it no longer happens at my end
Thank you for that, much appreciated!

One question came up in the meantime: I can see in the OSD (when clicking CTRL+J) that the Input always says 'Levels limited/TV' - is this something that can be changed to Full? I guess that should be the desirable setting

Thank you

[jmone]

AFAIK, the Input is showing the details of the Video itself, so for commercially mastered content it will normally be TV/Limited.  If you want to set "Full" for the output then change that in your video card settings.

[ppataki]

Yes, I understand that but I also did the following:
- installed LAV filters
- set up Custom Video Mode in JRiver to use LAV Video Decoder
- set LAV to output Full (0-255)
...and still in JRVR OSD I can see Limited/TV
(my RTX2060 is configured to output Full)

Is that because the input file (any 4K HDR movies I tried) is indeed Limited and even if I set LAV and the nVidia driver to output Full it won't happen or is it something else?
Thank you

[jmone]

Yes, JRVR "Input" information is just reporting the specs of the file being played.  Changing filter settings will not alter this.  As a test I created a Video in Davinci Resolve using "Full" (0-255) instead of a std (16-235) colour range and when playing it back in JRVR it is reported as "Full / PC" instead of "Limited / TV" (see pic).  I also don't know of any commercially authored videos that uses "Full".

(at this stage) The JRVR OSD simply does not show (and there are no JRVR Settings) on what colour range is being used during rendering and output.  The Output section shows the format being sent to the Graphics Driver (eg RGB10A2 which is 10 bits per red, green and blue. 2 bits of alpha) the and that it is HDR10 BT.2020, but nothing specifying the colour range directly.  I do see under "Performance" there is a "colorspace conversion" entry but Hendrik would need to advise on further details.

[Hendrik]

jmone is right, the "Input" section describes the video you are playing, it should not be impacted by any settings.

Output is always full range RGB, since limited range is more of a hack and you are lying to the graphics driver etc when you use it. Its also extremely rarely useful, so I decided to not put in an option for now.

"colorspace conversion" would be for BT.2020 to BT.709 or similar conversions, or the other way around, which in your screenshot only applies to the overlay, as all overlays are BT.709 SDR RGB, which in your case needs to be converted to BT.2020 and tone-mapped to HDR10.
In this case, the main video doesn't get converted, the only thing happening to it is YCbCr -> RGB, which is the "color decoding, color encoding" line, which reads the YCbCr (decoding) and writes it out as RGB (encoding).

[jmone]

Thanks Hendrik, makes sense.  So if I understand correctly,
- JRVR does all it processing as RGB "Full" and will output as such to the Graphic Driver
- The Graphics Driver then (depending on it's settings) will output either Full or Limited to the Display
- Modern Displays "should" read the stream as either Full or Limited as appropriate

I'm guessing that if the Display supports "Full" then having the Graphic Driver set to "Full" would be the most appropriate setup.  If the Display only supports "Limited" then setting the Graphics driver to "Limited" would be the most appropriate?

[dtc]

I am not sure of the full implications of converting limited rgb to full rgb in this environment, but limited rgb is used for broadcast TV and for DVDs and Blurays, so it is, in fact, pretty commonly used.  It is not typically used for computer monitors, but it is in TV and movies, prior to 4K. However, the conventional wisdom is that playing a limited rgb movie on a full rgb display caused problems with the blacks.