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[Hendrik]

New in Media Center 33 is a new presentation mode for JRVR, which presents a frame for every VSYNC, which should improve timing and rendering stability.

The new mode is not on by default in Media Center 33 yet, but can be enabled in the JRVR Advanced settings, where you can also control the length of the presentation queue.

On a technical level, this swaps around the timing of frames to be entirely VSYNC driven, rather then driven by the frame itself.

Some technical details below, to describe the difference, and why it is better.

Old/Legacy Mode
- JRVR receives a video frame, and looks at its timestamp
- Then sleeps an appropriate amount of time until the frame should be shown
- And shows it

New Mode
- JRVR looks at when the next VSYNC will occur, and checks the list of available frames which would be the best fit
- Then renders the frame immediately, as the GPU is responsible for showing it on the VSYNC
- Repeat for the next VSYNC

The new mode lacks the "sleep" portion, which makes it more accurate - as sleeps are not necessarily guaranteed to wake up at the right time.
Instead, we submit multiple frames for the next few VSYNCs to the GPU, and let it show them on the VSYNC interrupt, giving all the responsibility of perfect timing to the GPU instead.

As a consequence of this, when using a refresh rate higher then the video frame rate (eg. personally I run 120Hz for 24p and 30p content), individual frames need to be presented multiple times. For this we're leveraging separate render and output queues, as the JRVR OSD will indicate, which avoids completely re-rendering the frames multiple times, instead the final present output stage only blends overlays onto the final image, and dithers it. Any other rendering is only performed once.

Please let us know how this mode fares for you. In my testing the timing stability has been improved, and some issues with fluctuating VSYNC measurements eliminated.

[DocCharky]

PSA: To ensure the new option functions correctly, don't forget to manually enable Vsync for MC33 in the Nvidia Control Panel

After installing MC33, I forgot to modify this setting (since the Nvidia Control Panel obviously treats MC32.exe and MC33.exe as distinct applications with separate configurations), which resulted in significant stuttering and, in the worst cases, complete screen freezes.

I'm sure you’ve already considered this, but is there a method to automatically apply an Nvidia Control Panel rule during the JRiver installation process? I'm pretty sure some programs are capable of setting up custom Nvidia Control Panel rules during their setup.

As for the new option, I can't honestly say I've noticed a substantial improvement yet, but I’ve yet to watch an entire movie with it toggled.

[Hoi]

How does one figure out the optimal number of frames to set in the presentation queue size?

[mykillk]

I'm a little confused. The "new default presentation mode" is "not on by default"?

Please confirm whether this understanding is correct:

Previous presentation mode = presentation queue off
New presentation mode = presentation queue on

[JimH]

It hasn't been the default yet.  It's pretty solid now though.

[DocCharky]

So, I watched the movie “Air” yesterday using the new mode. That might be placebo effect, but the playback was really super smooth. With the previous mode, I used to notice some random stutters from time to time. That didn't happen yesterday.

I am really satisfied with this new mode. I am much more sensitive to poor motion quality than to color inaccuracies, so I welcome any improvements in that area!

(LG C2, Denon X2800H, RTX 4080 Super, Windows 11, with both framerate matching and Vsync turned on)

[DocCharky]

Quick question: Is anyone else experiencing issues with seeking while the new mode is activated?

When I click on the timeline, the player doesn’t resume playback properly, stutters significantly, and may even stop completely.

I didn’t have time to troubleshoot the issue yesterday since it was late, but I will investigate further to see if I can replicate the problem.

[JimH]

Doc,
Are you using 33.0.13?

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,139456.0.html

That problem existed in the first build, 33.0.1, but should be fixed in build 13.

[DocCharky]

I'm pretty sure I'm using the latest official release (I downloaded it when I received the email notification) but I'll check that too ASAP.

[narbi]

On most PAL DVDs (full folder rip with menus) the screen remains black while playing the video normally (the sound is there). No issue with the old presentation mode.
PAL BD (normal or UHD) are fine, and this mode corrects stutter issues.

[tkolsto]

delete

[DocCharky]

Doc,
Are you using 33.0.13?

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,139456.0.html

That problem existed in the first build, 33.0.1, but should be fixed in build 13.

I’m using 33.0.13, and this issue is not fixed on my side 😕.

I can’t determine what triggers it or reproduce it consistently. Sometimes it occurs when seeking by clicking on the timeline or using arrow keys; other times, it happens when simply hitting pause and play. Yesterday, the movie I was watching started to stutter severely on its own for no apparent reason after 1 hour and 15 minutes of smooth playback. The "empty queue" and "dropped frames" numbers on the OSD start to go up.

There’s something wrong.

[JimH]

Hendrik is on vacation this week.  He'll reply when he's back.

[DocCharky]

No problem, I’ll stick with the old mode in the meantime!

[tkolsto]

delete

[Audionut11]

I haven't touched the nvidia control panel in a while. Vertical Sync now has some new modes, including "Fast" mode, which is advertised as being really fast like Vsync off, with no tearing like Vsync on.
Instead, I see tearing with JRVR, and excessive GPU usage. Sticking with application controlled.

[tkolsto]

 

again. no drops or repeated frames or glitches during movie rendering and that with or without the use of hardware accelerating video decoding. both are perfect. only a glitch when choosing subtitle. Also if one go forward and backward on a movie(seeking) the movie ending up with freezing completely and I Am on latest version ...15. That dont bother me. Now it has very good rendering, the other stuff will be fixed in time. Very good Job by Hendrik!!

[afss_br]

Hello, I believe I found a problem using this new Present Queue feature (apologize if somebody already reported it).

The good news is that the video playback is very smooth without any hicups on my side, so good job here! But, some times after the start of video playback I cannot access the OSD to take any actions such as changing audio, subtitles, video profile, etc - the system simply ignores the remote control commands - I then have to press exit (interesting that this is a command that never fails during playback), and they start playback again - about 50% of the time I can trigger OSD and the other half it does not open during video playback. It almost feels like a process priority mechanism is taking place.

This was working fine on MC32 on the same system, so I am sure it is a new problem.

[tkolsto]

I haven't touched the nvidia control panel in a while. Vertical Sync now has some new modes, including "Fast" mode, which is advertised as being really fast like Vsync off, with no tearing like Vsync on.
Instead, I see tearing with JRVR, and excessive GPU usage. Sticking with application controlled.

I have tried "fast mode" too and rendering stops in the end. but no tearing this time, so this mode does not work and is also not needed either as "on" work very good. Stick to vsync "on". Fast mode is not new. It has been available since 2016 I think.

[terrym@tassie]

I have recently upgraded my Nvidia 1060 to a 4060 and have encountered a driver issue with JRVR.
I get no frame drops at all with JRVR/Videoclock with the 1060 with any version of the Nvidia driver.

I get frame drops with the 4060 with any driver greater than 537.58 (including the latest 560.94).
The frame drops are more pronounced on 50 fps material but to put them in perspective there are only generally about 1-2 drops per hour (but can be more).
Using the 4060 with the 537.58 driver I can play a 3-hour 50 fps video without any frame drops (Present Queue enabled).

I've attached a log showing the issue FYI (the drops always look like the one shown in the attached log) and would be grateful if Hendrik could have a quick look to identify what is happening.

[masterjoe]

The new render queue is a very nice addition!

However there is still one problem left to have fully smooth video presentations:
-> How to evenly align the video frame rate with the video driver's refresh frame rate?

Because the driver's frame rate most of the time is not a multiple of the video's frame rate. Hence, they do not really match.
I have seen image jerking (slightly stuttering) as a regular pattern due to this fact. So the video stutters almost every second but in between these hickups it is smooth.

Would producing blended frames help to prevent these stutters? Because showing the same frame twice SOMETIMES produces an irregular playback timing.

While the queue ensures best timing and clean frame swapping there still needs something to be done to align the display refresh with the video's frame rate.

Maybe interpolation / blending might help to evenly distribute the rendered video images across time to prevent any stuttering at all.

[Hendrik]

I have recently upgraded my Nvidia 1060 to a 4060 and have encountered a driver issue with JRVR.
I get no frame drops at all with JRVR/Videoclock with the 1060 with any version of the Nvidia driver.

I get frame drops with the 4060 with any driver greater than 537.58 (including the latest 560.94).
The frame drops are more pronounced on 50 fps material but to put them in perspective there are only generally about 1-2 drops per hour (but can be more).
Using the 4060 with the 537.58 driver I can play a 3-hour 50 fps video without any frame drops (Present Queue enabled).

I've attached a log showing the issue FYI (the drops always look like the one shown in the attached log) and would be grateful if Hendrik could have a quick look to identify what is happening.

I saw one such occurrence in the log, and it seems like a typical "glitch", as the Microsoft documentation calls it. A frame was shown for longer then intended, and as a result JRVR had to drop a frame to compensate.
There is nothing we can do once it already happened other then what we are doing to keep audio/video sync.

I can't really say why the driver difference causes that, there could be numerous reasons, from different support for MPO (multi-plane overlay, eg. how the Windows desktop is put together), from timing glitches inside the driver. Its always been a constant struggle with NVIDIA.
I'm actually looking forward to Intels Battlemage graphics cards, they might make good dedicated video playback cards.

Dedicated video playback has unfortunately been long neglected by all the manufacturers.

[Hendrik]

The new render queue is a very nice addition!

However there is still one problem left to have fully smooth video presentations:
-> How to evenly align the video frame rate with the video driver's refresh frame rate?

Because the driver's frame rate most of the time is not a multiple of the video's frame rate. Hence, they do not really match.
I have seen image jerking (slightly stuttering) as a regular pattern due to this fact. So the video stutters almost every second but in between these hickups it is smooth.

Would producing blended frames help to prevent these stutters? Because showing the same frame twice SOMETIMES produces an irregular playback timing.

While the queue ensures best timing and clean frame swapping there still needs something to be done to align the display refresh with the video's frame rate.

Maybe interpolation / blending might help to evenly distribute the rendered video images across time to prevent any stuttering at all.

Blending for small differences in frame rate is a terrible experience, it would lead to a very obvious distracting effect. Blending can be used when your refresh rate is much higher then the video frame rate, ideally 2-3x at least, but when you achieve that, the timing differences in frames is also already quite minimized.
Personally I run most content at either 120 or 100 Hz (120 for 24/30 fps and 100 for 25/50 fps), its not only an integer multiple of the frame rate, which always results in a more even presentation, its also so high that small corrections result in the "wrong" image shown for 8.3ms, rather then eg. 42ms at 24p.

If you see those kind of timing problems (not everyone does, and some TVs also automatically compensate), I would generally recommend to try to setup matching refresh rates and automatic switching. TVs can generally do all relevant rates, although desktop monitors are more limited.

We might offer blending at some point in the future, but its not planned for right now (eg. most likely not in MC33)

[jmone]

-> How to evenly align the video frame rate with the video driver's refresh frame rate?

The option Hendrik is suggesting is under Tools--> Options--> Video--> Display Settings.  Change "Display Settings automatic change mode" to "On".  You can customize some option underneath if needed, but it usually works out of the box on most displays and TVs. 

[terrym@tassie]

I can't really say why the driver difference causes that, there could be numerous reasons, from different support for MPO (multi-plane overlay, eg. how the Windows desktop is put together), from timing glitches inside the driver. Its always been a constant struggle with NVIDIA.
I'm actually looking forward to Intels Battlemage graphics cards, they might make good dedicated video playback cards.

Thanks very much for looking at this, I completely concur, it would be great to a get a GPU that is good for video playback. Fingers crossed maybe the new Intel range will fit the bill.
I don't think the driver issue should cause too many problems as lower frame rate sources such as Bluray play without any drops being recorded in the log. It only affects 50/60p or 25/29i sources and the glitches don't appear (at least to my old eyes) too visually jarring. I'm just going to 'lock down' to using the 537.58 driver as I mainly play 50fps material (and I'm a bit 'OCD' about frame drops). Maybe it will disappear again in a future Nvidia driver release......

[JimH]

For anyone having trouble with video playing only audio, try changing JRVR's Deinterlacing setting to YADIF.

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,139521.msg967839.html#msg967839

[tkolsto]

This comment is about 23 fps content and use of frameratematching together with some interpolation done by LGs truemotion. I don´t or very seldom use 50 fps and such.

I see now that it is smoother or at least more consistent motion handling playing the same scene over again to compare how the new mode performs(now MC32 was very good too, but now one does not have any drops or repeated frames, timing is now much better.  ( same scene have same motion, it does not divert, like one time it is a little better and other time it is poorer(stutter). It is more consistant now. I use the latest jriver...15, both with videoclock or hardware accelerating video decoding turned on and off works now. I use the latest studio driver 560.81.

This is huge really! JRiver´s timing is fixed now( ok I read now that some still have drops, but got it fixed by doing old mandatory stuff like powersetting and such, so this is fixed now I think apart from Tassi´s setup, and apart from this audio bitstreaming problem). When Hendrik told me that this was coming, I did not think it would come until mid september. but here it is and it working.

only thing if one go forth and back seeking on the video it can hang, but normally is stable(it happens sometimes it seems now and I used to happen on Alien but now it is better).

And those coming Intel GPU´s that Hendrik mentioned could be something good. Something to look forward too.



Update on artifacts:

Reguarding artifacts this is also much better too. Jason Bourne 2002 at the end of the movie, there is one of the most difficult(horribel actually) short motion scene, where Bourne is walking by a newspaper-outlet and the cam is following him close up as he walks( the scene is shown soon after bourne makes his chasers a phone call after killing one of their agents in a corn field)...in this scene there is a lot of artifacts, which is even more reduced now. His head is now uniform throughout the scene. This is on sdr(I only use sdr, due to motion and artifacts improvements it provides. It is better). So this new mode is an improvement and there are also another scene in the beginning of the movie where he climbs outside the wall of a building which after climbing down the wall, he then jumps to the ground and the camera pans/follow him as he meets the ground and raise his body after hitting the ground. In this scene it shows the usual artifacts above his body due to rapid motion( an unclear space between his body and the surroundings. This artifact is also much improved now, almost gone. so timing is very important when it comes to smoothness and artifacts(Tv- JRiver - NP´s vsync/driver work better together). The Lg truemotion/interpolation performs better due to better timing.

[masterjoe]

Blending for small differences in frame rate is a terrible experience, it would lead to a very obvious distracting effect. Blending can be used when your refresh rate is much higher then the video frame rate, ideally 2-3x at least, but when you achieve that, the timing differences in frames is also already quite minimized.
Personally I run most content at either 120 or 100 Hz (120 for 24/30 fps and 100 for 25/50 fps), its not only an integer multiple of the frame rate, which always results in a more even presentation, its also so high that small corrections result in the "wrong" image shown for 8.3ms, rather then eg. 42ms at 24p.

If you see those kind of timing problems (not everyone does, and some TVs also automatically compensate), I would generally recommend to try to setup matching refresh rates and automatic switching. TVs can generally do all relevant rates, although desktop monitors are more limited.

We might offer blending at some point in the future, but its not planned for right now (eg. most likely not in MC33)

My TV and GFX can't do more than 60Hz and the HDMI cable connecting the TV to the PC is about 15m long. So higher refresh rates are impossible.

Is AI frame interpolation (RE:Vision Effects Twixtor style) a thing that you might introduce at some point in MC? This could also solve this issue.

THX

[masterjoe]

The option Hendrik is suggesting is under Tools--> Options--> Video--> Display Settings.  Change "Display Settings automatic change mode" to "On".  You can customize some option underneath if needed, but it usually works out of the box on most displays and TVs.

Sounds interesting - will have a look at how well this works THX!

[DocCharky]

Is AI frame interpolation (RE:Vision Effects Twixtor style) a thing that you might introduce at some point in MC? This could also solve this issue.

THX

It's likely best to let your display handle motion interpolation (if it has that capability). Software solutions (like SmoothVideo Project) aren't as effective and/or put a significant strain on your GPU. I believe madshi developed his own algorithm, but it's exclusive to the Envy madVR boxes.

[Manni]

I'm getting lots of visible frame drops with build 15, that I didn't get with previous builds (3090 at 4K23 playing 23p Atmos 4K UHD Bluray) with the same settings. My 3090 is connected to an HDMI 2.0 input on my X8500HA as a workaround to the Atmos micro audio drops, and build 15 causes at least 10-15 video frame drops over a film with the new present queue.  Enabling or disabling hardware accelaration doesn't seem to make a difference. Disabling present queue and going back to the old presentation mode resolves the issue, and goes back to 1 frame drop per hour at most.

[Manni]

Actually I'm still getting frame drops even with the old mode. Same with the latest build. I'm reverting to build 13 to see if this solves the issue.

[Manni]

Reverting to build 13 didn't help, so it must be a windows update or nvidia driver update that's causing this, as I haven't changed anything.
The only way to get rid of these frame drops is to set performance to max in the nVidia CP, which I never had to do in the past, I've always used normal.
Weird. Re-installing build 17 to to check and I'll confirm.

[terrym@tassie]

@Manni, What Nvidia driver version are you using?
I get frame drops on a 4060 unless I use Nvidia driver 357.58 or lower.
The drops occurred whether I used HDMI 2.0 or HDMI 2.1, Present queue enabled or disabled. Tried every other 'tweak' I could think of (MSI enabled, MPO disabled etc).
The driver revision is the key factor for my setup.

[narbi]

I tend to have some frame drops too, like every 2min, not every movie but most of them on 23Hz. 556.12 driver.
It does not seem to happen at 119hz, so it might be related to video clock variance.
I can't stick to 100/120Hz setup because my gpu is a 1080Ti, so it will pass 4k120 but only in SDR (hdmi 2.0)

If it's a video clock issue it should be there with madvr too.

[Manni]

@Manni, What Nvidia driver version are you using?
I get frame drops on a 4060 unless I use Nvidia driver 357.58 or lower.
The drops occurred whether I used HDMI 2.0 or HDMI 2.1, Present queue enabled or disabled. Tried every other 'tweak' I could think of (MSI enabled, MPO disabled etc).
The driver revision is the key factor for my setup.

I never had frame drops until yesterday, including with the latest drivers, so probably not the best source of help. I have a 3090, which is more powerful than your 4060. You might have to try to load the performance settings for JRVR, to make sure you're not taxing the GPU too much, and then go up from that point.
I only set vsync on and until today nvidia performance to normal. Setting it to max performance (which is required for some) resolved the issue. I have no idea what changed in the last two weeks, while I was on holiday (so definitely didn't do any tweaking).

[terrym@tassie]

Good luck @Manni, you can't even be bothered to read folks posts properly.

[Manni]

Good luck @Manni, you can't even be bothered to read folks posts properly.

Did you read my posts, including the last one, just above your initial question?

I was only letting you know that it's perfectly possible to have no frame drops with a recent driver using a 3xxx or 4xxx GPU (well, around 1 frame drop per hour if bitstreaming, provided your GPU is powerful enough for the settings used), so I have no idea what's wrong in your set-up, but if you prefer to remain stuck in the past, that's entirely up to you.

I explained how I got back to having no frame drops using the latest driver. I'm now experimenting with changing the min/max GPU/mem clocks to save some power without dropping frames (i.e. not having to select max performance in the NV CP).

Good luck to you too!

[Smack]

Sorry for the stupid question since i'm no native talker. What exactly does this function do? could someone please explain it for dummy

[JimH]

Hendrik explained it in the first post of this thread.

[Hendrik]

In summary, it should make playback more reliable.

[eve]

New in Media Center 33 is a new presentation mode for JRVR, which presents a frame for every VSYNC, which should improve timing and rendering stability.

The new mode is not on by default in Media Center 33 yet, but can be enabled in the JRVR Advanced settings, where you can also control the length of the presentation queue.

On a technical level, this swaps around the timing of frames to be entirely VSYNC driven, rather then driven by the frame itself.

Some technical details below, to describe the difference, and why it is better.

Old/Legacy Mode
- JRVR receives a video frame, and looks at its timestamp
- Then sleeps an appropriate amount of time until the frame should be shown
- And shows it

New Mode
- JRVR looks at when the next VSYNC will occur, and checks the list of available frames which would be the best fit
- Then renders the frame immediately, as the GPU is responsible for showing it on the VSYNC
- Repeat for the next VSYNC

The new mode lacks the "sleep" portion, which makes it more accurate - as sleeps are not necessarily guaranteed to wake up at the right time.
Instead, we submit multiple frames for the next few VSYNCs to the GPU, and let it show them on the VSYNC interrupt, giving all the responsibility of perfect timing to the GPU instead.

As a consequence of this, when using a refresh rate higher then the video frame rate (eg. personally I run 120Hz for 24p and 30p content), individual frames need to be presented multiple times. For this we're leveraging separate render and output queues, as the JRVR OSD will indicate, which avoids completely re-rendering the frames multiple times, instead the final present output stage only blends overlays onto the final image, and dithers it. Any other rendering is only performed once.

Please let us know how this mode fares for you. In my testing the timing stability has been improved, and some issues with fluctuating VSYNC measurements eliminated.

Fantastic news. This is a really welcome change. Will report in when I start running 33.

[DocCharky]

I’m using 33.0.13, and this issue is not fixed on my side 😕.

I can’t determine what triggers it or reproduce it consistently. Sometimes it occurs when seeking by clicking on the timeline or using arrow keys; other times, it happens when simply hitting pause and play. Yesterday, the movie I was watching started to stutter severely on its own for no apparent reason after 1 hour and 15 minutes of smooth playback. The "empty queue" and "dropped frames" numbers on the OSD start to go up.

There’s something wrong.

Tried again yesterday, and I still got this issue

[tkolsto]

Me too. I have experienced that after an hour smooth play, there suddenly would be severely stutter/freezes and finally it stops/freezes. Frameratematching is set to on. 23.976 fps/hz. It has happened a couple of times. I havent used jriver so much lately...so I can not say how big of a problem this is.

[jmone]

yeah - I've got issues with the new mode when seeking.  Video becomes stuttering.  Only fix is to pause the back seek, then play.

edit: this happens when watching a 23.976 BD on a 50hz playback.  So no frame rate matching. 

[tzr916]

Odd, I don't have stutter after seeking. Content is TV shows 29.97/59.94 with MC frame rate switching enabled. Nvidia GPU's HDMI to TV's.

[JimH]

manni talked about driver issues and fixes here and in this thread:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,139306.msg966051.html#msg966051

[Hendrik]

I've not experienced this myself at all, but if it only happens with mismatched content maybe something is up, although I wouldnt know what right now.
Logs may help.

[jmone]

I'll do some more testing and see if I can narrow it down first.

[jmone]

Nope.  All working fine this morning!  So no idea why it was playing up last night.